Timeless Lessons in Leadership - The Work Wire

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[00:00:31] Welcome everybody to another very special episode of The Work Wire. I am Bob Goodwin,

[00:00:36] the president of Career Club, joined by my usual running mate and co-host Johnny C. Taylor,

[00:00:42] Jr., the president and CEO of SHRM. Today we are doing something new. We have a guest on

[00:00:48] The Work Wire. We are very pleased to welcome Shiv Kumar. Shiv, welcome.

[00:00:53] Thank you for having me here, both Bob and Johnny. It's wonderful to be here.

[00:00:57] I want to just very quickly because like I said we've never done this before so we've picked a

[00:01:03] really good guest to have for our very first one, Johnny. So let me just kind of get folks who

[00:01:08] may not be familiar with your background on Grounded Shift. So Shiv is a luminary in the

[00:01:13] realms of business and leadership. His illustrious career spans over several decades during

[00:01:17] which he's held pivotal roles in leading multinational companies including as a group executive president

[00:01:23] of corporate strategy at Ajit Shabir La Group, chairperson and CEO at PepsiCo India. He's currently

[00:01:30] serving as the operating partner at Advent International, a leading global private equity firm.

[00:01:36] Shiv has a reputation as a transformational leader and is known for his insightful approach

[00:01:41] to navigating complex business landscapes and fostering innovation. His contributions extend

[00:01:47] beyond corporate leadership. He sees sought after speaker, mentor and author sharing his wisdom on

[00:01:53] leadership, change management and the future of work. Shiv, wow welcome. Thank you very much,

[00:02:00] Bob. Thank you for those kind words. So we could probably spend a season's worth of episodes

[00:02:05] unpacking all of that but let's do it. Let's do it, Bob. We can do that too. But today,

[00:02:12] so for episode one then of the Shiv series we're going to do it on leadership and you know,

[00:02:19] Johnny, you speak very often on the topic of leadership. Your community are leaders within

[00:02:25] companies in policy, in academia. Shiv I wanted to sort of tee this up with a fairly broad

[00:02:32] question of just how leadership has changed from back in the day where it might have been more

[00:02:39] military style leadership to how it's evolved into the digital world that we find ourselves in now.

[00:02:47] Yeah, great question Bob. So when I look at the digital world that we live in today and I

[00:02:53] ask myself how is the digital world different from the physical world from which a lot of

[00:02:59] the leadership theories like the great man traits theory or things like that came through

[00:03:05] fundamentally the digital world, the speed in a digital world is of a different order. Number one,

[00:03:11] number two, they emphasis on data because you collect so much data in a digital world

[00:03:17] is extremely different. Third, business models change on a daily basis in a digital world.

[00:03:24] We had fixed business models in a physical world, but digital models are very flexible,

[00:03:30] very innovative in a digital world. The next thing about a digital world is that

[00:03:35] you have to work with the ecosystem. The ecosystem becomes extremely important in a digital

[00:03:40] digital world. In a physical world, you have one or two partners, but in a digital world,

[00:03:45] you could have maybe 10, 15 partners, you know, to work with. And hence you have dependent

[00:03:50] growth strategies, not independent growth strategies. And finally I would say in a digital world,

[00:03:56] capabilities keep moving forward all the time closer to the consumer and not to the factory

[00:04:03] or the production side. Digital takes you much closer to the consumer than ever before.

[00:04:08] And my final point on how digital world is different today, Bob and Johnny is that

[00:04:13] in the past in a physical world, we measure trust on a yearly basis. In a digital world,

[00:04:20] trust is a daily exercise. You win trust or lose trust almost on a daily basis. So those are the

[00:04:28] differences which I see fundamentally in a digital world and that's what leaders need to grapple

[00:04:34] with today compared to the past. And so how have you seen, I'm sorry Johnny just very

[00:04:41] quickly, how have you seen the kind of most important leadership qualities? Have they changed

[00:04:47] or are they the same just packaged differently or utilized differently?

[00:04:52] Yeah. Johnny, you wanted to say something before I go?

[00:04:53] No. Let me tell you, this is why I'm so sympathico with Bob. That was exactly my question.

[00:04:58] Fundamentally, the digital world may have changed. We may have gone from a non-digital

[00:05:03] to digital, but what about, are there enduring leadership qualities? Do you still essentially

[00:05:08] lead the same way or no? Yeah. Great question again. So the first point I'd like to make on the

[00:05:15] change in leadership is, in the past you were the champion of your company and you're fine

[00:05:21] doing that role. Today when you're part of an ecosystem, you have to manage change and

[00:05:26] champion the ecosystem. And that is what your ecosystem partners would expect of you,

[00:05:31] that you contribute to that ecosystem. Number one. Number two, in a digital world,

[00:05:37] everything which happens in an organization happens horizontally. It doesn't happen vertically.

[00:05:43] So if you want collaboration, if you want agility, you want speed, you have to drive

[00:05:48] horizontal collaboration, have SLAs, etc., etc., all signed off properly. Third, in a digital world,

[00:05:57] your employees are getting information from everybody. Horizontal information sharing is

[00:06:02] a lot more in a digital world. In the physical world, the boss spoke and everybody took cue from

[00:06:08] the boss. In a horizontal digital world, everybody is speaking to everybody else. So you need to

[00:06:13] communicate very, very effectively. Next thing in a digital world in terms of what changes,

[00:06:19] the number of layers in an organization is shrinking. So earlier you had maybe seven to

[00:06:24] 10 layers. Now maybe you have four to six layers. So managing that in terms of communication,

[00:06:30] in terms of energizing, etc., is very different. And finally, a digital world is also a social

[00:06:36] world boss. In a social world, your reputation, your words matter. For example, one of the

[00:06:43] serial CEOs yesterday, C-E-R-E-A-L, serial CEOs yesterday said have serial at night because

[00:06:50] it's the cheapest foods and then he got plastered all over media. So in a digital world,

[00:06:57] you have to be extremely clear about the words you use. So that's a great emphasis on

[00:07:04] choosing the right words because it can just blow up on your face.

[00:07:08] Johnny, what do you say the internet is forever?

[00:07:11] And unforgiving. I mean, that is right at once, right? And it's funny. I'd love to follow

[00:07:18] on that. It's really interesting. I have so many things I want to talk to you about. But

[00:07:22] one, speak to the issue of trust. You alluded to it earlier, trust specifically with your customers,

[00:07:28] but with your employees particularly in this horizontal world. And I love the way you describe

[00:07:35] it. You're right. We often say top down, but that's really vertical. But this is okay because

[00:07:41] sometimes it went up as well. But this horizontal landscape that you described is really,

[00:07:47] really insightful. But how do you develop trust and how important is trust? We always talked of,

[00:07:54] spoke of trust with our customers. What about trust with our employees?

[00:08:00] Yeah. So when employees look at trust, Johnny, the way they think about trust is

[00:08:06] you, Johnny, the CEO will not hurt me when I am vulnerable. That is trust to them.

[00:08:12] That's trust. Okay. So in their most vulnerable moments, they feel, they should feel that you

[00:08:20] have their back and you support them. That's very important. And the only way a CEO can do that

[00:08:26] is to listen to what the troops are saying, what people are feeding back to them in an honest way,

[00:08:32] not to cut off negative feedback. Number one. Number two, to be authentic and communicate

[00:08:38] with them very clearly where you stand and why you stand. For example, if you're having layoffs,

[00:08:43] explain why the layoffs are necessary to save the company, not to save your job.

[00:08:49] What is happening? What is forcing us to layoff? And where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

[00:08:54] Is this an ongoing exercise for five years or is this a one-off? I think people expect more

[00:09:00] honesty from their CEOs. And the more honest you are, the more trust you get.

[00:09:06] That's what I have found. And finally, where we find trust to be actually a little nibbulous,

[00:09:11] so question mark is first-time managers. First-time managers are always a challenge because

[00:09:17] they don't seem to imbibe the full qualities of the organization and they want to do things their way

[00:09:24] and hence they're not pulling the diversity of the team. And so behavior of first-time

[00:09:28] managers is at odds with developing trust with your people. Johnny, would you build on

[00:09:33] that point please? Because I know that, you know, and I'm going to brag on you for a second,

[00:09:37] you just got through testifying with the Armed Services Committee and one of the things that

[00:09:41] you talked about was frontline managers. And I'd love if you could build on Shiv's point please.

[00:09:47] Yeah, so Shiv, going back to the vertical world of the past when we would take the best

[00:09:54] accountant technically speaking and make that person crown them the manager of accountants.

[00:10:01] That's what we do. And whether they had people management skills, whether they even liked people,

[00:10:08] wanted to be bothered with people didn't matter. If you were the most tenured and you happened

[00:10:13] to be the most competent at the technical job, you were oftentimes made the leader.

[00:10:19] And what we have, I'd love your reaction to but what we're hearing is people say

[00:10:24] the people manager might be someone who is 25 years old and has only been in the workplace

[00:10:31] two or three years but it's because he or she can build trust, followership, which is another term

[00:10:38] that Bob I want you to elaborate on. But that that's the person not the season 20 year technician

[00:10:44] because that person might be great at the job but not at gaining trust and building trust with

[00:10:50] people. And I think our fundamental reality is HR folks have come to realize we have allowed

[00:10:57] and I'm gonna use that term and we've allowed our hiring managers and senior types to promote

[00:11:05] people into jobs that they're either not qualified to do. In other words, you can't

[00:11:10] motivate and build trust with people or we have not prepared them to do meaning we've not

[00:11:15] invested in people management capability building with those people before we throw them into the

[00:11:20] job. Yeah, I would say in reaction to the journey is that look at moments of trust in an organization.

[00:11:29] Moments of trust become very important or people sense it when there is discussion

[00:11:35] around transformation and layoffs and I've covered that the other moments of trust

[00:11:40] there are two other moments in an organization which are very important one is appraisal time

[00:11:45] okay and the third one is promotion time when people see that appraisals and promotions are fair

[00:11:52] then there's more trust in the system. When they see that promotions and appraisals are unfair

[00:11:58] then they don't trust the system and many times have encountered this when people we say look

[00:12:05] I don't think you will cut it you know maybe you need to look out etc they'll say but why

[00:12:10] didn't my manager tell me this in the last three years that's right why was he sugarcoating this

[00:12:16] okay where is it written in my last appraisal that I had to improve in these areas or had to

[00:12:20] deliver better so honesty in appraisals and honesty in feedback and honesty in promotions

[00:12:27] is absolutely crucial you know in building trust. So one of the things that you've written

[00:12:34] about I think maybe we can segue into this you use the acronym VUCA but you don't use it in the

[00:12:40] traditional sense that a lot of listeners would know volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity

[00:12:48] you've got a different definition of VUCA that I think has a lot of these qualities

[00:12:52] that great leaders and emerging leaders would benefit from could you could you share that

[00:12:58] with folks yeah yeah my my issue with VUCA is it just describes something right okay it just

[00:13:06] describes it it doesn't tell you what to do so what has VUCA become if you look at books if you look

[00:13:12] at presentations everybody says we live in a VUCA world now in my experience it's a shorthand for

[00:13:19] saying I'm in trouble and I'm sure you understand but that doesn't solve the problem

[00:13:25] that's what everybody is doing you know you know what we live in a VUCA world so it's like saying

[00:13:31] look tomorrow is going to be sunny but the weather forecaster hasn't told you should you take an

[00:13:35] umbrella should you take the sunscreen should you do this should you wear walking shoes what

[00:13:40] is he asking you to do if it is sunny out there right so I thought long and hard about it

[00:13:45] and for me V stands for versatility if you want to face the world which is volatile you

[00:13:53] need to be versatile otherwise you cannot face the world you is for uncomfortable you have to get

[00:13:59] uncomfortable as a leader to say I don't know everything there is no definitiveness there is no

[00:14:05] in a black and white there are lots of shades of gray and I'm happy to deal with it that's the

[00:14:10] second part of uncomfortable say is for collaboration because nothing can be achieved if the whole

[00:14:16] organization doesn't pull in one particular direction which is collaboration and a is for

[00:14:21] agility because in a VUCA world you have to be very quick off the blocks if you're slow you'll

[00:14:29] get murdered in fact I say this in many a session Bob and Johnny if you look at the last 25 years

[00:14:37] no big company has beaten a small company however a fast company has beaten a slow company

[00:14:44] so agility becomes very very crucial if you really want to succeed so that's my definition

[00:14:52] Johnny any that any particular one of those resonate with you all of it and I'm really I

[00:14:57] I'm one of those folks who every time I get in front of a group I talk about VUCA

[00:15:02] for the because you're right it describes the state of affairs and to be fair when you reflect

[00:15:09] on it it's true like it is that we live in this world that is very different than perhaps

[00:15:15] times past and our employees sometimes need to be made aware of it but Shiv nailed it now you've

[00:15:21] got to tell me okay what do I do in response to it so I got it I don't disagree that VUCA

[00:15:26] accurately describes our current state but how do I navigate that what can I do individually and

[00:15:33] as a leader to help my employees navigate it so I absolutely love that I'll be stealing that

[00:15:39] by the way because I think that's uh and I'll give credit Shiv I absolutely no no no no

[00:15:47] and it's so fun if you see me looking down it's because I was actually writing that down at the

[00:15:51] time saying gosh this is really really good so I love it I can't add anything to it because

[00:15:56] it's spot on um what about you Bob well well I've been just sort of one that really struck me

[00:16:04] was this uncomfortable yes you know kind of contrasting you know the traditional definition

[00:16:09] of VUCA and in yours which is there's kind of a don't blame me like what do you want from me

[00:16:16] look how crazy it is out there it's a VUCA world so what do you want from me you know it's not my

[00:16:21] fault we missed our targets and we're going to get into accountability in a second where

[00:16:25] we can kind of pick up on this theme but it's changing consumer preferences it's the economy

[00:16:31] it's not my fault it's a VUCA world the uncomfortable I think ties back into what you were talking about

[00:16:37] Johnny he brought up the issue of trust authenticity it's like I don't know like or even admitting a

[00:16:43] mistake like I got this one wrong we thought this was the right way to go it wasn't we're going to

[00:16:49] acknowledge that I think for a workforce to hear a leader say I didn't get it right

[00:16:57] it's not the economy's fault it's not your fault it's I'm going to own we didn't get this piece of

[00:17:03] it right and then you know it's one of those situations like you know when when it's an issue

[00:17:10] you need a mirror when you're giving credit it's a window right so if the problem you know

[00:17:16] I'm going to own the problem but I'm going to share the credit with people and so the

[00:17:21] uncomfortable thing I think that's really from traditional leadership models I have to be strong

[00:17:28] I have to be the wizard I have to you know be infallible to leave this group I think the current

[00:17:34] generation John and you talk a lot about this you know the current emerging generation they

[00:17:39] want authenticity they kind of see through the BS of you know I don't have any challenges

[00:17:46] and they really gravitate vulnerabilities a magnet for young people it is but shiv I'd love you to

[00:17:53] react to it's funny they are that group this in particular generation Z send mixed messages and

[00:18:00] maybe we all do to some extent so I want a leader who gives me confidence especially

[00:18:06] in periods of those trust moments or those moments of trust that shiv like you're getting

[00:18:12] ready to lay off yes I want you to admit that maybe it was partly your mistake but I still have to

[00:18:17] pay my rent next month so and if I'm one of the remaining employees is this going to happen to me

[00:18:24] next year so you know we're constantly as leaders and I hear this a lot from leaders like on one

[00:18:30] hand the employee who sits down at the performance review another trust moment or moment of trust

[00:18:37] I want to be honest with me but then if you're too honest I don't like that either because I'm not I

[00:18:44] don't feel psychologically safe I don't feel like you know so to be fair to people managers out here

[00:18:51] and human resource professionals people say they want your authentic self until your authentic

[00:18:56] self shows up like this these are it's it's not as easy as and that's why this people

[00:19:02] management stuff then leadership is so difficult because oftentimes someone says a when they really

[00:19:09] mean b yeah shiv yeah my own experience in that regard uh uh johnny and bob is uh especially with

[00:19:20] the millennials number one they want you to be relevant for tomorrow yes if I stand in front of

[00:19:26] them and I give them examples of what I did five years ago they say come on there's a hard

[00:19:31] wash right tell me your point of view about what's going to happen in the next three four years yes

[00:19:36] whether it comes to or not is not important but do you have a point of view about the future

[00:19:41] because remember they have a career long career ahead of themselves number one number two they

[00:19:47] expect you to be fair that's the other thing in all situations okay that's the second one

[00:19:52] third one is they keep asking themselves if I'm working on the shifter who has 20 years experience

[00:19:58] can I condense those 20 years experience of shiv and learn under him within six months right I don't

[00:20:04] want to be here on the seventh month but can I juice out everything that he knows and this thing

[00:20:10] and finally all employees especially many millennials work for cv value is there cv value

[00:20:17] improving as a result of working for you as a result of working for the company if they believe

[00:20:23] the cv value is increasing they will flaunt it I work for Johnny Taylor on 10 projects that's right

[00:20:28] I work for Bob on 20 projects I advise that's what they do and my advice to leaders always is

[00:20:37] with millennials shoot for respect and not popularity if you want to be popular then go sell ice cream

[00:20:44] right with millennials you must get their respect first that's right but shiv said something

[00:20:50] I'd love to probe on so that that that last comment what about mutuality so the the employees who says

[00:20:59] I'm only working for cv value and I'm not going to be here seven months from now so I'm going to

[00:21:06] extract everything I can why and I pose this to you why can't management say the same thing

[00:21:13] why can't management say listen right now I need you for a year for this project after that

[00:21:18] good luck because just as you will move on from me then why don't we have some mutuality here you

[00:21:25] want me for cv value I want you to see you went to ior or whatever you know all these famous schools

[00:21:30] in india or harvard in the us okay perfect and when this is no longer when there's a almost

[00:21:37] like sports like the funny thing I love about sports is they bring in a bumper crop of 18 to

[00:21:44] 24 year olds and you join the team but when you turn 35 there are other younger legs and you don't

[00:21:51] expect to me to remain loyal to you because I'm not going to be like it's just if it's going to

[00:21:57] become that transactional that those last two things that you described cv value and the fact

[00:22:02] that I'm going to extract as much as I can out of you as long as I'm here with no expectation

[00:22:07] expectation I'm staying longer what happens when leaders do the same thing is that not fair

[00:22:13] deal yes great question Johnny the first thing is the relationship between an employer and an employee

[00:22:21] or a manager who's representing the employer and an employee should not be asymmetrical

[00:22:26] if it is asymmetrical you can never get that that's okay that absolutely critical next is

[00:22:32] we already do it like for example we have gig workers okay we have outsourced many of our

[00:22:38] core activities and we've established you know global capability centers we are on the path already to

[00:22:44] do it that's and my simple you know a representation of that would be if Johnny is hiring me and he

[00:22:51] tells me Shiv this job is for one year subject to your performance subject to company's financial

[00:22:58] help we could continue you make up your mind whether you want to join us or not if it is

[00:23:02] that clear then it is absolutely fine to do the issue happens when it becomes unclear

[00:23:09] and suddenly in the middle of the tenure you're told hey you know what we don't have a rule for you

[00:23:14] then the employee feels I had a trust and a bond with this company now that's broken

[00:23:19] and then they go to Glass door and start doing this right you know in Unineva in the year 2001

[00:23:26] we used to have an annual plan and our chairman globally just changed one word to get much more

[00:23:32] focusing and he said you know what this is no longer an annual plan it's an annual contract

[00:23:39] he said you will not have AP 2024 it'll be called AP AC 2024 okay so a simple word change

[00:23:50] suddenly told people hey you know what I'm not being fired but I'm very being clearly told

[00:23:55] that this a contract that I need to deliver yep you know so that equation must be clear right in

[00:24:01] the beginning is my submission and I agree and so we violently agree and that then gives you the

[00:24:06] mutuality right now Bob we would say in the US we kind of have that because it's called employment

[00:24:12] at will it's not an annual contract it is you have a job today and you may not have tomorrow

[00:24:22] that's created its own set of issues maybe you know employment at will literally is not good

[00:24:27] maybe it should be a year six months picked a period of time but I get the point about the

[00:24:31] asymmetry and my point about mutuality like whatever the terms of this relationship are

[00:24:38] let's make sure that we have it some would argue and I know there are many out there listening right

[00:24:42] now who'd say yeah but the bargaining power is not the same the company can find someone tomorrow to

[00:24:48] replace me I can't find a job tomorrow and that's a much broader conversation a longer

[00:24:54] conversation but I do think what you're describing is and I hear this and we hear this

[00:24:59] in some research constantly is managers are like you want me to trust you but I don't necessarily

[00:25:06] I can't trust you so it's not mutual you can be out looking for a job

[00:25:12] but I can't be looking out for your replacement yeah and in treating millennials Johnny I would say

[00:25:21] treat them like volunteers not employees that's right they have given a chunk of time to you

[00:25:27] if you make the most of their talent in that time they'll give you another chunk of time

[00:25:33] okay treat them as volunteers please do not treat them as employees that's it they can leave any point

[00:25:38] yeah yeah I want to noodle on that one a little bit and what also has been running in my mind

[00:25:43] that listening to you guys is when companies throughout their scene we're a family oh yeah

[00:25:50] and it's like no we're not like I have a family and it's not people who are painting but but

[00:25:57] but that's actually I love this annual contract kind of thing because that really is the relationship

[00:26:04] and and to say that it's different and John I'm going to go back to your point about people

[00:26:09] speaking out of both sides of their mouth yes right because there's so much you know like

[00:26:14] like I need the employer to do this for me and provide this for me and provide this for me

[00:26:20] and and yet you know from the accountability side and then Shiv I know this is something

[00:26:25] that you talk about maybe we can kind of get into it here Johnny we've done episodes on lazy girl jobs

[00:26:32] quiet quitting you know those kinds of things just like I want to I want all this stuff

[00:26:41] but I'm only willing to give you almost yeah much less and so there's another

[00:26:48] in some cases evidence of asymmetry so so Shiv can you talk about accountability and how it kind

[00:26:54] of in mutual accountability yeah so accountability for people you know when you talk to employees

[00:27:02] what does accountability mean for them it means you're holding them accountable for the result

[00:27:07] they were supposed to deliver or the goals they were supposed to hit but all of accountability

[00:27:13] and all of business as all of us know is in a particular context yeah things can go horribly

[00:27:18] wrong things can go horribly right so like for example a lifting tide lifts all boats right so

[00:27:25] does everybody get rewarded equally when the water goes back recedes then all the boards

[00:27:30] in our ground so is that you know recognized at all so what people want you to be as a judge of

[00:27:39] performance and accountability to say have you taken the context into account have you taken all

[00:27:45] have you provided me with all the resources etc and the simplest way I figure out people who are

[00:27:52] accountable the savvy people are not accountable in their minds first before I hold them accountable is

[00:27:58] people who do not like accountability externalize a lot yeah you know what I could have done this

[00:28:04] but Johnny didn't do is that's I could have done this but Bob didn't Bob's department didn't

[00:28:09] support me so you just listen to their narrative at a priceless time you'll find that more than

[00:28:15] 50% of the conversation is about blaming others that's right now that kind of a person will not

[00:28:21] be accountable in any company trust me in any company on the other hand people will say hey you know what

[00:28:28] I could have done this better ship if only I had reached out and asked Bob for help if only I had

[00:28:34] tapped into Johnny's you know contact book I could have done more now suddenly people are

[00:28:40] learning and saying you know I could have used the resources of the company far better to

[00:28:44] be accountable even though I was short so that's what I find amongst people who are accountable

[00:28:50] and not accountable externalization we saw the internalizing the deficit and saying this is

[00:28:55] what I could have done about it I love that you know Bob is saying I know that's Johnny speak

[00:29:01] she have exceptionally well said in fact this year at sherm I've even within my context as

[00:29:07] CEO of sherm I told employees our guiding principle so one that resonates most with me this year

[00:29:12] is excellence and accountability and when you and to your point being very transparent with people

[00:29:19] that this is the standard this is the way we operate but it just it's not just because

[00:29:24] vertically Johnny the leader is on some ego trip we owe it to our customers absolutely our members

[00:29:31] we can't deliver and you think about it I don't want to put a company on the spot right

[00:29:35] now but Boeing you know if you don't absolutely write into classic examples somewhere in their

[00:29:40] system and I don't know who but somewhere excellence and accountability is not being

[00:29:45] upheld which ultimately forget the stock price it's putting people's lives at risk that you

[00:29:51] cannot allow that to be the culture in an organization so yeah it may be rough on a

[00:29:57] particular employee who doesn't who is not accountable but it's for the good of society

[00:30:02] people have to have confidence that when they get on a plane that they're going to land

[00:30:06] safely on the plane save for stuff that mother nature and god like does right you can't have it

[00:30:13] because there was a sloppy employee and also I would add Johnny one thing is that you know

[00:30:20] accountability must lead to professional integrity enhancing professional integrity if I'm accountable

[00:30:27] I'm enhancing my the integrity of my functions be it R&D in the case of Boeing or being accounting

[00:30:35] in the case of Enron it has to improve the professional integrity of the individual and

[00:30:40] that function within the company and the industry yes absolutely yeah sorry hot button word for me

[00:30:49] just to talk about integrity for half of a second the thing that's interesting about

[00:30:53] integrity is you only know it when it's called into question so if I'm at Enron and I'm the

[00:30:59] accounting department and Jeff whatever his name was who's the CFO it's like wait a minute

[00:31:04] you know I thank you I can say that I've got you know integrity is very important to me great

[00:31:08] give me an example when it's called into question right or at Boeing somebody in their engineering

[00:31:13] group or manufacturing group is like this isn't right there's something not happening here and

[00:31:19] having the courage to stand up and be accounted for and willing to accept the consequences of

[00:31:26] you know being unpopular or whatever you know might happen but come at the cost of your job

[00:31:33] and so I mean those are you know not small stakes but that's integrity is when it's called

[00:31:40] into question otherwise it's just a word and it's easy to claim and very hard to prove

[00:31:46] I'll give you my two cents on that Bob which is when we talk integrity most organizations

[00:31:53] understand it as financial integrity that's common that's power for the course don't even

[00:31:59] discuss it right my measure of you know integrity in an organization is the intellectual honesty that

[00:32:05] manages this there have been companies where I could stand and argue with the chairman and say this

[00:32:11] is wrong we are doing the wrong thing and disagree with him and still nothing would happen to me

[00:32:17] and there were companies when you could not disagree with your boss so when an organization

[00:32:23] lacks intellectual honesty its managers lack intellectual honesty what you get is psychofancy

[00:32:29] when you get psychofancy you actually get bad integrity that's right institutional why that's

[00:32:38] right that's when the collective of that because it becomes your culture right and you multiply

[00:32:44] that 10,000 times across 100,000 person enterprise and you've got a problem you have a real problem

[00:32:50] yeah but the examples of Toyota Volkswagen Enron going there are examples of what

[00:32:58] you just described Bob yeah you know Johnny and it's just a great point you often say the culture

[00:33:07] of a company is how stuff really gets done that's right and if intellectual dishonesty is how

[00:33:14] things really get done that is your culture irrespective of what you've got placards all

[00:33:19] over the office on just back on accountability shift and we can use this maybe to move into

[00:33:25] a topic that's near and dear to my heart which is career development and personal brand

[00:33:31] and you know oftentimes we're not oftentimes every time we're working with a client and you know they're

[00:33:38] looking for their next role whether they're working somewhere right now or in between jobs

[00:33:43] and they want to talk about their CV having your job description on there is interesting

[00:33:50] but what I want to see is what did you do the language of business's numbers in the way that

[00:33:55] I say it is adjectives are not accomplishments so you know I'm a strategic problem solver I'm a creative

[00:34:01] thinker blah blah blah let's say I don't know what that means yeah or you've got your job

[00:34:05] description on there I mean here's the dirty secret people get fired for not doing their

[00:34:09] job description so that doesn't tell me if you're any good at it but when there's you know

[00:34:15] hey I actually understand how I contribute whether I help the company make money save money

[00:34:20] mitigate risk you know what some of those value leavers are I'm I would love for you to talk for

[00:34:26] a minute Shiv and how you coach people around building their personal brand and thinking about

[00:34:32] career development yeah so the first thing about this topic is that the role of a leader

[00:34:39] is to develop other leaders yes first to develop them as a person and then second to

[00:34:44] develop them as leaders one of the things which we can contribute as leaders to people who work with us

[00:34:50] is our ability to prioritize their work and their impact and output everybody wants to

[00:34:57] impress you everybody wants to do 20 things now nobody is a combination of superman plus batman

[00:35:03] plus you know uh spider man yeah that's for enough time with Johnny but okay hey

[00:35:10] and let me say and wonder woman we got that's right absolutely right and wonder woman

[00:35:16] so what we need to tell them is look I know you think you can do 20 things

[00:35:20] can you just focus on five things which have the highest impact a lot of the time when you

[00:35:25] need to develop people you need to focus them on their areas of strength and quite often people

[00:35:30] don't understand that they take it for granted that the multiplier they get on when they focus on

[00:35:35] their strengths is significantly higher right next I would say that when people are very good

[00:35:42] give them tailwind just encourage them more to do better okay don't give talented people headwind

[00:35:50] they will hate it yeah okay so you need to give them a lot more tailwind and when you have very

[00:35:56] talented people working for you one of the reason one of the things that you as a leader

[00:36:00] must do is to protect them you must protect them in the good for the good of the company

[00:36:07] when they're doing the right thing when you don't protect talented people then the average drops

[00:36:12] dramatic absolutely I tell you too that that first point that you made really resonates with me I

[00:36:19] strengths I have found more managers and frankly individuals who spend a disproportionate amount

[00:36:27] of time trying to take the things they're only going to be decent at so they're they take their

[00:36:34] they spend their time working on the areas that are their weaknesses their developmental areas

[00:36:40] and while some of that has to occur you're going to get the best return by maximizing your

[00:36:46] strengths and most people don't know what their strengths are so they spend most of their time

[00:36:52] working on the things that they'll never be great at like I said this to someone I could spend

[00:36:58] 20 hours a day in the front of a basketball court and I could have LeBron James as my coach

[00:37:04] and it's never going to work like I'm just that's not my strength and I think in corporate

[00:37:09] America I find more people trying to be great at something that's just not natural it's

[00:37:14] not in their wheelhouse and they will be so much better identifying what they can do really well

[00:37:19] to your point having a manager or leader focused on their tailwinds not because headwinds is all

[00:37:25] about telling me what I'm doing wrong and what I but I'll never be great at it doesn't work for the

[00:37:30] person and it doesn't work for us as organizational leaders. Yeah the on development the other

[00:37:37] interesting but sad fact is that in every appraisal we say these are development areas for

[00:37:42] Shiv or for Bob or Johnny and after that what happens is most employees have outsourced the

[00:37:49] problem to their HR manager or to the leader they expect you to do something that's right so one of

[00:37:54] the things I did over the last four five years was to say these are your development needs

[00:37:59] here's your budget okay here's a budget of a thousand dollars you're free to choose two

[00:38:04] courses of your choice but it's your responsibility now to develop yourself

[00:38:08] it's not the responsibility of HR it's not the responsibility of the boss because they must carry

[00:38:13] the development on their back that you cannot carry that monkey on your back as a leader.

[00:38:19] No but and I one little nuance I'd say HR needs to be a resource to that person who doesn't

[00:38:26] we can enable them that's right enable them yeah that's the big deal is I've we've seen

[00:38:31] and I've actually tested with giving people annually a budget to spend on their leadership

[00:38:37] development tool the problem is some people don't know how to I in fact I got to tell you this quick

[00:38:42] story I was working with someone I said you need a degree so she went to a school that had a very

[00:38:47] poor program horrible results horrible curriculum expensive etc and she got a degree and at the

[00:38:55] end she came back and said I'm ready for my promotion I was like yeah not so much the worst

[00:39:00] of all scenarios is she invested her time in her money and it was an hour money right as

[00:39:05] an organization and then at the end she did so talking about a trust issue so that's why I would

[00:39:10] say to my HR practitioner is out here listening we do have a responsibility to help enable this

[00:39:17] decision I love where Shiva said here's your thousand dollars in your career is ultimately

[00:39:23] your responsibility largely because it's portable you can take it with you you know once you

[00:39:29] master this you may do it for another company so this is for your benefit and therefore you

[00:39:34] should take the lead on it but with some help from learning management and learn and professional

[00:39:39] development types in HR okay but so it's started to bring this one in for a landing here a little bit

[00:39:47] since we're talking about bowling and a safe landing you know we started off talking about

[00:39:52] this digital world that we live in and obviously AI is the topic of the day in technology

[00:40:02] Johnny maybe you could actually kind of kick us off here a little bit because

[00:40:05] your shrooms taking a very strong position on you know AI plus HI equals ROI if you want to

[00:40:13] explain that a little bit and then maybe that can kind of set Shiva up yeah so November 29th of 2022

[00:40:20] was when the world essentially started talking about AI because that was the day that they

[00:40:25] unveiled chat GPT and shortly it was a huge excitement I remember that day oh my gosh this can happen

[00:40:33] but shortly thereafter the article started going dark AI is going to take your job 300 million jobs

[00:40:40] will go away be meaningfully reconstituted you know ultimately machines and robots and there was

[00:40:46] a movie called Megan in other words the narrative went very dark very quickly and people freaked out

[00:40:52] we realized the promise of AI but didn't fully appreciate the threat to human beings need to

[00:41:01] protect their livelihoods you know there are only two things existentially that threaten human beings

[00:41:06] it is a threat to their lives and to their livelihoods and AI became the threat to their

[00:41:13] livelihoods in much the same way as COVID was a threat to their lives so we've seen huge pushback

[00:41:20] and resistance from people to AI notwithstanding all of the amazing benefits and so we at at

[00:41:27] Charm sort of said we've got to reposition the messaging and change the narrative that it's

[00:41:33] not AI alone that's going to be what companies look at from an ROI perspective it's AI plus

[00:41:39] HI because there's some things that uniquely human beings will do that a machine will not do in

[00:41:45] the foreseeable future right if ever so that thus came the narrative of its AI plus HI human

[00:41:52] intelligence that will deliver the ROI of the future just that shift in language that very basic

[00:41:59] calculation has helped kind of allay come with some of the concerns and stop what we were seeing on

[00:42:05] the legislative front you talked about being the senate everyone now wants to legislate it

[00:42:10] away and you may say why well it's because voters are fearful of losing their jobs they call their

[00:42:16] politician and say oh i know what it can do but you need to slow it down because that threatens

[00:42:22] my ability to earn a livelihood so that's the regulation the regulators will shut it down

[00:42:27] even if it's good because their voters you know as wonderful as the machine learning is

[00:42:32] and algorithms and all of that they don't vote

[00:42:38] have to listen to voters

[00:42:41] ship you want to run without yes no i fully agree with that and i think AI plus HI equals ROI is

[00:42:48] a fantastic concept you should trademark it and yeah very good well done so on AI i've been

[00:42:57] reading a lot from what's happening in the us etc i was looking at some data from layoffs.com

[00:43:04] the whole of 2023 the tech companies laid off about 720 people per day last year yep double

[00:43:14] the prior currently right now in the first two months of 2024 they're laying off at the rate of

[00:43:21] 780 people per day that's right so that's roughly about a 10 percent increase yes and the reason

[00:43:28] they are saying that they need to do that is to invest in new servers invest in AI tools etc etc

[00:43:34] i think this will have a cascading effect right we are already seeing it in most parts of the

[00:43:40] world yes i think AI will take out repetitive tasks like you know mobile phones took out

[00:43:46] the telephone operator right because earlier we called a building to talk to johnny now i call

[00:43:51] johnny to talk to johnny okay so the telephone operator is gone okay so repetitive tasks will

[00:43:57] go away i think all employees will go up the value chain and i think finally while the last word

[00:44:05] has not been written we'll only get better they will always be challenges of every new

[00:44:10] technology we've seen this consistently the stock market seems to love AI okay the

[00:44:16] regulators are in mixed mode the politicians certainly are worried yes bingo and that's the

[00:44:24] stock market was in video that's for sure go ahead johnny i'm sorry no no and microsoft and anybody

[00:44:30] else who all you have to do these days is sort of mention AI it's so funny to see companies

[00:44:35] now if AI is not in in your public material then you your comms people are failing you

[00:44:41] because you get a premium just for somehow mentioning AI right shiv i mean it's really

[00:44:46] fascinating so so shiv let's let's kind of put a big bow on this we've talked about a lot of things

[00:44:53] we have talked about the enduring qualities of leadership we've talked about you know the

[00:45:00] trust that needs to be built we've talked about accountability we've talked about technology

[00:45:06] how would you put a bow on this whole conversation so that a listener walks away with kind of maybe

[00:45:12] one two three main takeaways you'd like for them to have yeah great great question to

[00:45:19] you know put a bow on this the first thing is i did a very simple exercise you know as i was thinking

[00:45:24] about this session johnny involved and i think johnny alluded to this at the start i type leadership

[00:45:31] into the search engine and i got believe it or not 6.2 billion items in 0.39 seconds

[00:45:38] 6.2 billion there are 6.2 billion items on the topic of leadership i cleared it and i typed

[00:45:47] followership i had 3 million now here's the problem the whole world is fascinated with leadership

[00:45:56] the whole world does not want to practice followership i submit to you you cannot be a great

[00:46:02] leader if you're not a great follower a great follower means doing things in the interest of

[00:46:09] the company and the boss and to say i will get this done but speaking up whenever you believe

[00:46:14] that something is wrong finally all of us must recognize that leadership is the ultimate

[00:46:20] responsibility that's right okay it is the responsibility all of us must carry it's the

[00:46:25] burden we carry on our shoulders okay and in leadership is the journey which is the reward

[00:46:32] it is not the title we keep learning because the context keeps changing all the time tomorrow

[00:46:38] we hope to be a better leader day after tomorrow we can hope to be a better leader there is nothing

[00:46:42] called you've got 100 on 100 leadership it's a it's a journey and all of us need to go through

[00:46:48] the journey love that johnny anything to add drop the mic on that a fabulous wrap up ship that is

[00:46:58] i mean what do you say i if i were to add anything it's actually repeating something that you

[00:47:03] something as i've reflected on the last 40 minutes or so of this conversation the the way that you

[00:47:10] have now reframed the conversation about horizontal versus vertical that will stick with me i was

[00:47:17] just actually if you saw me looking down i'm writing notes because that really does stick with me that

[00:47:22] the nature of leadership is very much about it's a horizontal approach versus what historically

[00:47:30] was vertical that's well done ship thank you so much it has been a true privilege and

[00:47:38] uh educational i've learned a ton of stuff johnny's making notes so i can't wait to see all

[00:47:43] of his notes but thank you so much for investing in fuminist your time with us today here on the

[00:47:47] work wire it's been great thank you johnny thank you bob i learned a lot i enjoyed the session

[00:47:52] and i hope that you know i get to see you soon johnny and then i hope to interact with you bob

[00:47:57] thank you thank you so much so to our listeners and viewers thank you so much for taking a few

[00:48:02] minutes out of your day to join us during the work wire we hope you enjoyed today's session

[00:48:05] with shiv shiv kumar and we will look forward to seeing you on the next episode of

[00:48:10] the work wire johnny here we go come on thank you so much check out career dot club for personalized

[00:48:18] help with your job search visit shrem dot org to become part of the largest human resources

[00:48:24] organization worldwide