Return to Office, DEI, and Trump 2.0: What’s Next for Work?

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[00:00:31] Hey, everybody. This is Bob Goodwin. Welcome to another episode of The Work Wire where I'm joined by my good friend and co-host, Johnny C. Taylor Jr., the present CEO of SHRM. Johnny, great to see you as always. Yes, my man. Really, really good to see you. Can we say Happy New Year still or is that happening? I think, yeah. I usually cheat and go through. I think I have four more days in February, but okay. To each his own if that works for you. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year.

[00:01:00] One of the beautiful things about The Work Wire and kind of the format that we've got is it's very current event oriented. Like what's going on in the news right now? Sometimes it sounds like an HR issue. Sometimes it doesn't. But it's got everything to do with work and what's going on and where we spend a lot of our lives. Well, this week, holy moly, speaking of new years, we're going to talk about the Trump administration.

[00:01:24] We're recording this late February, so we're about a month in to literally four weeks into the Trump administration, the 47th one anyway. And oh my goodness, there have been so many things. I mean, it's just been like rapid fire, machine gun, executive orders, just things every day. It's like it's hard to keep up.

[00:01:47] So what I was hoping that we could do, and you can help me drive the bus here, is pick some of the most important areas that this administration and not just President Trump, but the people that are working for him and executing against his vision, how they're impacting both workers, employers, what work even looks like.

[00:02:11] And what's some of the repercussions of that are that SHRM sees in the short term, but also just what we kind of see might be happening a little bit further down the road. So if that works for you, does that sound like an okay agenda? Sounds like a lot to do in 24 minutes, but we're going to knock it out. We're going to do it. So I'm going to flip the microphone to you, Johnny.

[00:02:31] As you kind of think about what's come down the pike already, and they're between DEI, mass firings, ICE raids. Oh my goodness. Return to office. Return to office. Where did you get accomplished this week? Right. You couldn't help it, could you? You could not help it, but okay. How do you want to take this?

[00:02:59] Well, I think you've actually rattled off the biggest ones, and I'll end with long-term, what's happening over in the Department of Education, which those of us in HR may think, hmm, what about the Department of Labor? Or actually, if you actually think about it, I talked about this in congressional testimony hearing just recently, in many ways, the PK through 12 or 16 program. So, you know, when we put kids into pre-kindergarten and we take them all the way through college, that's our manufacturing assembly line of sorts.

[00:03:29] And ultimately, we as employers buy or consume their product, which are supposedly very smart people on the other end who are trained to do something. And that's broken. And I said that in testimony. So I want to talk about that just at the end, because there's some things happening there that have long-term implications that this administration is tackling. Let me also say, and you know this, Sherm and Johnny Taylor, we're nonpartisan. We're not even bipartisan. Like, I don't have a dog in this.

[00:03:58] So anyone listening who may listen to this and say, oh my gosh, he's showing favoritism toward the administration. No, I'm living in the world as we know it. For the next four years, this is the world. This will be the president of the United States. His administration will be in charge. His various secretaries, at least for now, both houses of Congress are under Republican control. And the Supreme Court has more appointees from a row.

[00:04:22] I don't know people's political or affiliation of the Supreme Court, but most of them right now have been appointed by Republicans or conservatives. So there you have it. So what we advise at Sherm, and I'm sure you and I can agree, is how we talk about this work on the work wire, is that we've got to every day go do our job and get the best results that we can get. And we won't get engaged in or pulled by the temptation to talk about politics because it kind of doesn't matter.

[00:05:19] Okay. Period. The time that work starts, the time that work ends, the time that lunch starts, the time that lunch ends, etc. So he's not doing anything that any other president has always had the authority to do. And in fact, pre-pandemic, overwhelmingly, the government was. All government employees, or overwhelmingly, not exclusively, all government employees did come into an office every day.

[00:05:44] So this is just, in some ways, back to the future, you know, and you may debate that that's a good idea or a bad idea. But funny thing is happening. Private sector is doing this and actually started before Trump making the decision. If you follow the trend, major employers said, you know, that was a grand experiment. Four years later, we've looked at it. We've decided on balance we want our people back. Now we're going to have more flexibility than we've had, you know, pre-pandemic.

[00:06:13] And so it's not the hard and fast nine to five assembly line kind of work. But, yeah, we think people innovate, collaborate, and do better in office or some form of hybrid or full time. So the administration is doing that. In some ways, I would suggest to you that the administration is following private sector. Right. We're already doing that. Thoughts? Before I go to the next one, what do you think? Well, I mean, you're right.

[00:06:41] I think we've talked about this before. Like, we're probably not going back exactly to the world that we left, you know, in March of 2020. And it took us however many decades it took to get us to the five-day work week and you go to the office every day. It's going to take a while to figure out the new model. But, you know, clearly Jamie Dimon, Andy Jassy, Michael Dell, like, you know, Zuckerberg. I mean, like, pick somebody. You know, they're like, we want you back in the office.

[00:07:08] Like, and to your point, and I think, like, I'm not the biggest Jamie Dimon fan in the whole wide world. But he's like, if you don't want to work here, that's okay. You don't have to work here. There's lots of other places and there's a lot of people who would like to work here. So this is what it looks like to work at JPMorgan Chase. Okay. And that's what Trump is saying. You know, at the end of the day, President Trump is saying the same thing. And is it different?

[00:07:34] Again, if you just go back to 2019, this is the way we operated anyway, largely, not exclusively. So I think just like on the private sector, people got spoiled post-pandemic and decided that, and I'll use that E word, entitled. And therefore, they believe now that this is the worst thing since, you know, everything. It's just horrible.

[00:07:56] When, in fact, if you step back, pause, you say, if you've been in the workplace for 20 years, 75% of that time, you came into an office Monday through Friday, the traditional hours, and some longer. You know, it's funny you mentioned you rattled off a lot of the tech names and the banking names, but we forget Walmart. 1.2 million employees at the time in 2020. And overwhelmingly, their employees were going either into distribution centers or into stores.

[00:08:25] And people were walking in sick at the height of the pandemic. I remember having to go get something, and I walked into a Walmart store, and there were staff everywhere. So this notion that everyone's been working remotely and we've proven that it can work well is simply the numbers don't even support that. Overwhelmingly, people have continued sometimes at the height of the pandemic to go into their place of business every day. So enough. He's made the decision. He's announced it.

[00:08:53] They'll battle with the unions and the courts or whatever. But for now, that's the decision, and that would be true even on the private sector side. So let's pivot to something else. The whole conversation around, you know, telling me what you're doing. This week, it was all the buzz that Elon suggested to employees that you have to tell me the five things. I don't know what it is, but report out and tell me, what do you do? What did you do last week?

[00:09:19] Now, would that bother people who've not had to do that ever? Sure. But again, those of us on the private sector know that a couple of things happen. Either you've been asked to do that before, or your company has hired a very expensive group of consultants to come in and determine what did you do last week and whether or not they need you in that job.

[00:09:40] And at the end of it, you may not have a job because some group of consultants came in and decided that what you do is not necessary and or you don't do it well enough. And that there's another way to get it done. And that there's another way to get it done. So I guess it was hard for me to get all excited about it because I actually, as a CEO, my board has said to me, tell me what you do and what we can hold you accountable for. That's the basis of performance management.

[00:10:10] So, yeah, I mean, it feels a little, you don't like the idea that your boss, none of us would like, you know, my boss asked me, what did I do last week? It's my boss. All of us have one. I have a chair of my board of directors and I have two choices. If she asked me to tell her what are the five things I did last night, last week, I can give it to her and have some form of peace at work or not. And either not have a job or not have a good relationship with her as my boss. It's really, really binary here.

[00:10:39] So a couple of things. One is, you know, well, just with Elon's email, it's also, and if you don't respond, I'll take that tacitly as you just resigned. So that was wild. And then I think it was Department of Defense, maybe another IRS, I can't remember. It's like, yeah, you don't have to worry about that. So we'll see where all that nets out. But it does come up for me. It brings up a couple of issues.

[00:11:05] One is, and I literally just led a group coaching call on this earlier this afternoon, is if you can't demonstrate how you add value to your company, like they budgeted for this role for some reason. And we're going to pay this person $100,000 to do X. We expect, you know, a return in excess of $100,000 for whatever we did. In teaching people, there's like three levers, essentially, that you can pull. How did you help the company make money?

[00:11:34] How did you help them save money? How did you help them mitigate risk? And if you can't dimensionalize your contribution against at least one of those three, you know, kind of pillars, it does beg the question, then why are we paying you? Like, what do you do? The other thing that I'll say. And who is the we? In this case, the we are taxpayers. Taxpayers have a right to know, am I getting a fair return through one of those three levers that you mentioned?

[00:12:02] Now, the other thing I'll say, and this is a little bit an anti-return to office point of view, is, you know, this notion of a results-only work environment. So if you want to know what I did and what I accomplished, do you really care where I was? I mean, do you really? Like, as long as the work got done and it's, you know, what you expected was on time, high quality, under budget, whatever, and I can document my work output. Do you really, really care where I did that?

[00:12:32] Yes, yes. Particularly, remember, we're in a knowledge-based and, as you pointed out on a couple of work wires before, relationship economy. Remember, you talked about that. That's what LinkedIn is now referring to it. So the fact that you can be an individual contributor and do your job, there may be opportunities for you to either upskill, teach, cross-skill other employees that happen if you're doing it in your living room.

[00:13:00] So, yes, in the purest of senses, yes, we're not robots. And you have an assembly line where you push through 80 pieces and widgets per minute, and therefore you can justify it. It could be that, yes, you did really great work, but imagine what the outcome may have been if you were in a group and your product had the benefit of the diversity of 10 or 12 different minds.

[00:13:26] Maybe a new product would have been born as opposed to delivering the product that you've always product delivered on time and on budget. Maybe. Right. So if your job is only as an individual contributor, awesome. Awesome. But I would even argue on that one because, again, these are not simple questions with simple answers. They're very nuanced. They're very contextual to the company, the project, whatever. But you could say, hey, look, I did this. It contributed like this.

[00:13:55] And that's additive. I would make your point by saying, but you could have been multiplicative. You could have been a multiplier, right? Not just additive to it. So if all you want to do is just add your discrete individual work product, okay, that's fine. That job is called this and it pays like that. If you want to be a multiplier, that means we need you around other people because you can't slack your way to greatness.

[00:14:23] And so we need you to be in a place where more of your influence can be felt and benefited from. And so, you know, I'm a huge believer in hybrid. I think remote only. Well, I didn't want to try and guess what the roles are. They'd be perfect for remote only. But we are better together in the right work streams at the right time.

[00:14:48] And with that, it's like then everybody should be happy or at least get closer to being happy. But most compromise is not everybody gets what they want. And that's probably okay. Can I say one other thing? Because you've used the term happy a lot. Because a lot of my focus has been in response to your question. And I was being the devil's advocate, to be fair. But it was what the company wants from it. There is overwhelming data that suggests that we have a loneliness epidemic in our lives.

[00:15:18] And that people's mental well-being has been sacrificed because of isolation. Because so on one hand, sure, it's nice for me to get up in the morning and not have to get dressed and drive in and all of that. But there is a cost on the other side of that. Not always. But overwhelmingly human beings need to interact with other human beings.

[00:15:41] It's why we, in most of the world, solitary confinement in prison is deemed cruel and unusual. Because human beings actually, not all, but generally overwhelmingly need interaction with other human beings. And there's something that happens when that diversity of experiences, backgrounds, and when they get together, they make something really special. But they also make people feel better.

[00:16:10] You just, you don't know it. We responded to the work. The whole RTO at scale was a response to people not being protected physically. Like we did not know what COVID was. We didn't know how it spread. We didn't. So we went to the extreme. And frankly, Bob, I think we're trying to get back to the middle, which is why I, like you, am a big, big supporter of hybrid.

[00:16:37] I don't know that the old nine to five, Monday through Friday is the best idea. I also know that it, I don't know that it isn't. But I would sit more in the middle. And that's why I'm loving flexibility and hybrid plans. Okay. So we'll do the third thing top of mind right now. And it's probably in order, the thing that's got most of the attention is the executive orders on diversity, equity, and inclusion. Let me start by saying anyone who was surprised had their head in the sand.

[00:17:04] The last, one of the last few executive orders issued by the Trump administration in its first run, Trump won, as we call it, was an initiative on diversity, equity, inclusion. And so after he lost, of course, then he came back and we should have guessed that was going to be top of the mind. It was discussed on the campaign. I often say, what is it? Candidate Trump is also President Trump. For good or for bad, it is what it is. And so there's value in that knowing none of us should have been surprised.

[00:17:33] You know that Sherm back in July, not just from who's going to win the presidency. I had no idea who's going to win, but we saw the Supreme Court from its 2023 Harvard decision and higher ed. We saw where this was going. So here we are, post-inauguration. One of the first things that the president does is say, I'm going to do what I said I was going to do. And I'm going to tackle, but here's the term, illegal discriminatory DE&I.

[00:18:03] All DE&I, or as we at SHRM refer to it as IND, because we're focused primarily on inclusion and diversity. All of this work is not illegal. All of it is not discriminatory. Some of it is. Some of it is. For anyone listening here who disagrees with that, we have all of the data. I can give you examples at scale where people were practicing illegal. It would have never passed constitutional muster.

[00:18:32] And it was just too aggressive and too, it wasn't defensible in our country. Okay. But a lot of it was good practice. And so what we're saying is, let's find the good practice. That can survive court challenges and also doesn't divide our workforce. You know, even if it's good, if it divides people, then the point that we love bringing people together is to get them to collaborate and work together. And if it's dividing us, then you missed the point.

[00:19:02] So if the outcome here is to find good inclusion and diversity work that will unify, not divide, the workforce, secondly, that will pass constitutional and legal challenge, then we can continue doing the work, even if not by the words that we choose. And that's what I, at SHRM and all of us, our head of government affairs coined that phrase, let's focus on the work and not the words. Yep.

[00:19:32] So go back to July, you know, and you personally took a lot of arrows on that one, you know. Arrows? Is that what you call it? Like grenades? Well, those two. You look like Daffy Duck with his bill blown on the back. Right, right, right. But, you know, I do believe in, we're friends, so, but I think that SHRM, looking at the data, was prescient on where things were headed.

[00:20:01] And, you know, we're very much on the bleeding edge of calling us where it was headed. And to your point, I mean, that case against Harvard, against affirmative action in admissions, was clearly a precursor for what companies would be doing, because it's the next logical step. Right?

[00:20:25] And so, and as you say, you know, the data, and you were very clear on this, that the data indicated this in its current version can't stand. And so, you know, I felt, you know, it was very pragmatic, but very pragmatic to not lose all of the battle over one word. Right. Right.

[00:20:55] And so, you know, to Emily's great credit, let's focus on the work, not the words, you know, as you said. But it all gets kind of lost in the media and the way these things are portrayed, that we're abandoning people. We don't care about diversity anymore. You know, exclusion is where we're headed. And if you could just speak to some of that rhetoric, Johnny, I think it would be helpful for listeners, because I'm not sure we always get the other side of the story.

[00:21:26] Yeah, one, it's not healthy to focus on the past, to be totally honest. At this, I had a debate with someone this morning, and it really turned into a debate where they were saying, you know, you have to resist. You must be a part of the resistance. That's an obligation. And I said, listen, I'm a pragmatic kind of person, right? Elections have consequences. Obama first said that in 2009. And that was great when he said it then.

[00:21:55] But guess what? It applies this time for President Trump. Elections have consequences. The president has broad authority and influence. And if this is his direction, what we as HR practitioners and those who practice in the inclusion and diversity space should do is try to figure out how to do your work. Because our society is more diverse. It will become increasingly more diverse. So I think diversity is our strength. But we also have to have inclusion for all.

[00:22:22] You want to talk about something that we need to get alignment on is that inclusion efforts can't be totally focused on people who are historically not included. Because then you engage in the very behavior that you complained about. So I think practically speaking, as I said, put aside the legal issues, which are real. Practically speaking, it was time for us to step back and ask ourselves, are we doing this work in the most effective, efficient way?

[00:22:52] And outcomes do matter? And outcomes do matter. And we have a lot of data, lots of data that would show you that some of the diversity work actually may have done more harm than good. Some. And I don't want anyone there to get out of there. But there is data. And it's not just far right, conservative-based data. There's data. SHRM has data that says things like ERGs. There's a question around effectiveness.

[00:23:21] And so more to come. I would just say that we should all know that this is the world for at least the next 47 or so months. And it could be longer. So we had better figure out how to do this really important work in a way that doesn't get us all sideways with people who have the power and influence right now. Yeah. Hey, this is William Tincup.

[00:23:49] Listen, we did a series for iSolved called Heroes of HR, where we talked to HR practitioners. And these are just your run-of-the-mill, everyday, slogging it out, 300 employees, and Cedar Rapids, HR pros. Mostly it's centered around iSolved, and they're what they do with iSolved. But also they talk a lot about kind of the day-to-day rigor of HR.

[00:24:14] If you're curious about that, search for Heroes of HR wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. As you think about, I mean, because executive orders, right? I mean, that's sort of, you know, you mentioned that earlier, like Trump leaves, new president comes in, executive orders that just sort of overturn, countermand, you know, whatever the previous policy was. Are there aspects of this that you think, you know what? I mean, I think irrespective of who's in office, this is going to last for a while. Yeah, lots of them.

[00:24:44] Lots of them. I think this conversation, again, what we saw happen to DE&I occurred under a Biden presidency. This didn't just start last month. This level of scrutiny, this level of business leaders questioning, did I get a good return on my investment since 2020? And George Floyd's horrible killing. These are questions that started way before there was a Trump presidency.

[00:25:09] In fact, as you know, there are a lot of pundits who thought there was no way he was going to win, even two weeks before. A week before, you had the Des Moines Register, a noted pollsters saying he's going to win Iowa. So this was not, people have to be honest with themselves and say this work, these questions started a couple of years ago and they got stronger and stronger. And you can blame Robbie Starbuck at this person or that person. But at the end of the day, I think this continues for a while.

[00:25:39] That's why I don't think this is a momentary lapse. That's number one. The return to office, as we've talked about. I think this is the trend. We're going to go more like what was 2019 and less like 2020. I fundamentally believe that. I'm hoping that we don't overcorrect. I hope we end in a hybrid situation. I know and hope that we're going to have more flexibility in work. But this will survive a Trump presidency, believe me. This also, this big notion around employees.

[00:26:09] Listen, we had for the last almost decade a war for tech. We had the turnover tsunami. We had the great resignation. And that was employees leveraging their power. And I predicted that that would shift. It is shifting. And I don't think it's limited to the next year.

[00:26:31] What you're seeing is employers, in particular, government sector, as we're seeing, private sector, nonprofit sector saying, OK, this is the way it's going to be. If you want to work here, great. If you don't want to work here, great. But this is the way it's going to be. I think we are seeing that. And that, Bob, is not going to shift anytime soon. We're seeing a swing back. And I don't think it's a swing back to management, the totalitarian.

[00:27:00] I think it's back to the middle. Because I know as a CEO, it was really, really, really pro-employee rights. And I'm not going to do this. And I'm going to do that. You're going to pay me whatever I want. I think we're getting back to a better balance right now. Yeah. And so it's funny because I was thinking about this when we were talking about the return to office bit earlier. And I think that a company has got to be true to their values. You're right.

[00:27:29] In the current kind of cycle that we're in, the labor cycle that we're in right now, the power has shifted back to the company. And we're in a bit of a white-collar professional recession. The time that it takes to get a job, the number of jobs that are available or down, the time to take to get a job is extended, like way beyond people have seen in their careers before. And so companies do have a little bit of their pick of the litter right now.

[00:27:58] And things are taking longer than they've taken before. So, you know, that power shift happened pretty quickly. I mean, like within a year, maybe something like that. And, you know, from, like you say, quiet quitting and quiet resignation and, you know, kind of basically screw the man. I'm going to do what I want to do. And now the man has said, well, not exactly. But with all that said, I hope, you know, that companies are trying to figure out whose lead they're going to follow is if they follow their values.

[00:28:28] And, like, what is their culture? What are their values? And there is the practical side of, like, you know, what works for us in hybrid and, you know, whatever the formula or the recipe for them looks like. But for, I mean, Jamie Dimon was pretty rough in that call. You know, he's using some of his New York City, you know, vocabulary, you know, during that. And that creates a brand impression, right?

[00:28:54] As in, you know, if I'm a candidate, like, okay, all right, you've got the right to do all that. I'm not sure that's where I want to work. Or, or that's exactly where I want to work. Okay, but all I'm saying is that I do think that, you know, some of this pretty harsh rhetoric, you know, will not play, what do the kids say? It won't age well. Some of it won't age quite as well.

[00:29:21] But back to my friend who's the president and CEO of SHRM, like, there's not good cultures and bad cultures. It's, is it for you? Is it not for you? That's okay. Yeah, and, you know, so I'm going to say this, I know we have to wrap up, but it really, that point is so important. I, well, there are two points. One, what you heard was frustration, utter frustration. I'm a CEO. I talk to CEOs of for-profit, nonprofit, governmental leaders all day.

[00:29:51] And four or five years of employees telling you, I will do this only on my terms, does exhaust you. Even if you're doing everything you can to protect, I mean, many of these companies did not lay off during the pandemic when they could have justified doing so. SHRM couldn't. I could have just as easily sent a ton of people home because we didn't have events. I didn't need events. I could have wiped out. But we did it for our employees. Employees' health, mental and physical was everything.

[00:30:21] We were focused on that. And to come out of that and have people just want more and more and more and more, I understand his frustration. Would I use that language? I don't know. I'd like to think that I wouldn't. But on the right day, when I got really frustrated and I felt like I was being taken advantage of and not valued, I would have done it. And here's the funny thing. We excuse. We forget. And we excuse the behavior. Employees who do that, we say, well, she's going through a divorce or she just found out her husband has a condition. Like we have all of the empathy in the world toward employees.

[00:30:51] He's an employee too. CEOs are employees too. And what you're seeing is some pent-up frustration. Again, not saying whether it was good or bad or I would have done it or not. It doesn't matter. It's done. Like that's number one. The number two thing that I think you've alluded to, and I think it does matter, is your culture is your culture. We continue to find you make this assumption that everyone, there are rough and tumble organizations where people actually want to work in that environment.

[00:31:18] I'm not going to name the company, but I went to a company once for an interview and when I walked in, they had a bar in the middle of the floor. And this was not an alcohol company, by the way, a spirits company. It was just a regular company. And I walked in and people were at the bar drinking beers, dah, dah, dah, on their break. And I immediately knew this is not where I want to work. John Taylor's never going to work in an environment like that. That's just me. Southern Christian, blah, blah, blah. I thought it was totally inappropriate, way out of the way, not something I ever wanted to be a part of.

[00:31:48] That doesn't mean that company was bad. It was bad for me, but it didn't mean it was bad. I would argue that no one should come to work and expect to drink alcoholic beverages in the middle of the day. They were okay with it. It was true to their culture. And they attracted people who were okay with that kind of behavior. There are others who will be totally fine with coming into the office, generally having strong leadership, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

[00:32:13] So in with that, we have to get out of the business as HR practitioners, as business leaders, of trying to say what's good or what's bad. In a U.S. workforce of 168 million people, it's amazing how we have choice in different types of work environments and milieus and cultures. And I think that net is a good thing. Stop trying to make everyone your ideal of a company because where you want to work may not be where I want to work.

[00:32:42] Well, we're going to wrap this one up because we're at time. And I think if you're okay with this, Johnny, on the congressional testimony and education, do you mind if we cover that in the next episode? Would that be okay? That would be. I'd love that. In fact, it was a hot spot. So I'm looking forward to talking about it. Let's take it there because it deserves that much breathing room to talk out. But, you know, the next 47 months will be interesting. We will have no shortage of topics.

[00:33:12] And, you know, there's plenty of room for diversity of opinion and perspective. What I hope people will gravitate to ultimately, though, is the data. And what's the data telling us and what creates healthier, better, more thriving workplaces and work experiences? If we can get there, I don't care whose name is on the front, then we're going to be in a pretty good spot. I appreciate you, Johnny, for helping bring some clarity to all of that. Thank you. Yeah. And I thank our listeners for taking a few minutes.

[00:33:42] The feedback that we get on the WorkWire is phenomenal. You know, you guys really do listen. We get comments from you, suggestions for future topics, which we're looking at right now. So if you've got an idea for a future topic here on the WorkWire, you know, just bring it to me, Bob, at Career.Club. I'll make sure Johnny and I, you know, talk about it. And but in the meantime, we just appreciate you investing a few minutes. Johnny, always a pleasure to be with you. Mike Waspah. See you soon.

[00:34:08] Check out Career.Club for personalized help with your job search. Visit SHRM.org to become part of the largest human resources organization worldwide. Thank you.