Google Sit-ins - The Work Wire

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[00:00:31] Hello everybody.

[00:00:32] This is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club and joined by my good friend Johnny C. Taylor,

[00:00:37] Jr., the CEO of SHRM.

[00:00:39] Welcome to another episode of The Work Wire.

[00:00:41] Johnny, how are you?

[00:00:42] I'm excited to be here this morning.

[00:00:44] I've got so much to share with our audience, especially given the topics that you and

[00:00:49] I have chosen for this week.

[00:00:51] No, we've got some really, really good topics.

[00:00:53] As usual, we just sort of dive straight into the deep end of the pool for better

[00:00:58] or for worse.

[00:00:59] We end up just getting wet.

[00:01:00] You come out looking like a rose, but I can't even swim.

[00:01:03] So whatever.

[00:01:04] No, the topic today is very serious.

[00:01:09] This is about what happened with Google employees who are protesting Project Nimbus.

[00:01:16] And I assume most listeners are going to be familiar with this, but just a little

[00:01:20] bit of background is Nimbus is this $1.2 billion contract that Google's got with

[00:01:27] the Israeli government.

[00:01:28] And it's in their cloud business.

[00:01:32] And so obviously a very, very big contract for them.

[00:01:37] Given everything that's going on with Israel in Gaza or broadly in Palestine,

[00:01:45] we've got Iran jumping into the mix, is that there are Google employees who

[00:01:51] believe that Google is basically complicit in genocide, given everything that has

[00:01:59] happened with Gaza and all the deaths in Gaza.

[00:02:03] And while we're certainly not going to try and parse out who's right and who's

[00:02:09] wrong in that conflict or anything like that, there's a very serious workplace

[00:02:15] issue that happened.

[00:02:17] So there I think was in three different campuses, Seattle, San Francisco and New

[00:02:21] York, where there were protests.

[00:02:24] There was a sit-in in the cloud computing president's office, Thomas Kurian.

[00:02:29] There were arrests being made after they were given ample warning like you guys

[00:02:33] need to stop doing this.

[00:02:36] There were terminations as a result of this because creating an unsafe work

[00:02:41] environment as well as disrupting the ability to get work done.

[00:02:46] So that's kind of the backdrop.

[00:02:49] And so with that, Johnny, what's your sort of hot take on that?

[00:02:55] Oh, my gosh, it is in a word insane at this point.

[00:03:00] I mean, and I don't really do I get to it.

[00:03:03] I agree with you, then.

[00:03:03] So it's really important to say to anyone listening, this is not a we're

[00:03:10] not attempting to decide who's right and who's wrong from a moral standpoint,

[00:03:13] morality standpoint.

[00:03:15] So, you know, on Palestine versus Israel, like that's not the conversation and

[00:03:20] anyone who drags you into it's a red herring because we should be clear.

[00:03:24] That is neither Bob nor Johnny's.

[00:03:28] Frankly, it's not even our job to decide.

[00:03:30] I don't think I'm qualified to do it.

[00:03:31] And I don't think it would be any good because these things are debatable.

[00:03:35] What isn't debatable is the sovereignty of the workplace.

[00:03:39] That is just a nonstarter.

[00:03:42] We know that that employers have the right to subject to not discriminating

[00:03:49] and against people or treating people in irresponsible ways of determining

[00:03:54] the terms and conditions of employment.

[00:03:57] We have an obligation to protect our employees, our diverse, really

[00:04:02] important point, our diverse employee population.

[00:04:05] So here we are.

[00:04:07] I can only imagine being the head of HR that day when some group of employees.

[00:04:13] And again, be clear, they have a right to feel the way they do about the topic.

[00:04:18] Right.

[00:04:19] But to decide that you're going to bring that into work and disrupt the

[00:04:24] workplace to affect productivity, to effect because you don't agree.

[00:04:29] It's a, you know, it's just not tenable.

[00:04:32] It's truly untenable.

[00:04:34] And I was actually very pleased to see Google finally take the next step.

[00:04:39] I think they did what they could to try to convince the employees

[00:04:43] to go back to work or leave.

[00:04:45] Right.

[00:04:45] But you can't occupy the CEO or the president in this case's office

[00:04:50] because you disagree with a purely commercial business transaction.

[00:04:55] And so this notion that, and we talk about this a lot, I know you've

[00:04:59] seen the recent article that says, I think 36, 37% of employees have said

[00:05:05] they will leave their employment if they don't agree with the CEO's

[00:05:10] political or point of view.

[00:05:13] That's like what?

[00:05:14] So something bizarre is happening where the idea is as the employer,

[00:05:19] you have to 100% agree with me.

[00:05:22] You have to do and act in ways that are consistent with my value system.

[00:05:27] And if you don't back in the day, I would just quit.

[00:05:30] Now I stay and raise hell.

[00:05:33] That's not cool.

[00:05:34] Yeah.

[00:05:35] And that is what's happening.

[00:05:37] And so in this case, let's just sort of walk around it a little bit

[00:05:44] in the sense that from the Google employees, these protesters

[00:05:49] or activists perspective.

[00:05:51] Yes.

[00:05:52] You know, yes, the company has made a commercial decision that they're

[00:05:56] going to provide these services.

[00:05:58] The employees feel like, yeah, but it's my IP.

[00:06:02] It's my sweat that is contributing to that.

[00:06:06] Like you're now putting my fingerprints on something that I think is to

[00:06:11] the extreme unethical.

[00:06:13] Don't I have a right to say something about that?

[00:06:16] You have a right to say something in the right form and you have

[00:06:19] the right to quit because we have to remember when an employer pays you.

[00:06:23] Yes, it is your sweat and I am paying you for that.

[00:06:27] I don't want to get the lawyer and he starts going to call work for hire.

[00:06:30] Right.

[00:06:31] Ultimately, I pay you to deliver this product.

[00:06:34] It is now mine.

[00:06:36] And I'm going to use just a really interesting example.

[00:06:38] So I engaged someone to come to my house and hey, name it, make a piece

[00:06:44] of furniture for me, put in curtains, whatever.

[00:06:47] And then I decided to go take them and donate them or sell them to

[00:06:52] someone you don't like or agree with.

[00:06:55] You know, you can't just go snatch it down.

[00:06:58] You can't take it back.

[00:06:59] I paid you for it.

[00:07:01] So as an employee, you fully understand that when you come to work and you

[00:07:06] produce product at the employer's behest and your agreement, you are

[00:07:11] then paid for it.

[00:07:12] The transaction is over.

[00:07:13] What happens from that point forward is really none of your business.

[00:07:16] Now you can decide you don't like it.

[00:07:18] You can voice your concerns to social media.

[00:07:20] There's media, media, traditional media.

[00:07:22] There's all of that.

[00:07:22] And ultimately you can quit and say, I'm no longer going to sell you my brain,

[00:07:27] my services, but the idea that I can come in and disrupt your workplace is

[00:07:33] again, that doesn't work.

[00:07:34] That's not how the math works.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:36] And like it seems like what we see on the news, whether it's stopping

[00:07:40] traffic, right?

[00:07:41] So they're so like, you know, Golden Gate Bridge and the airports

[00:07:44] and the university.

[00:07:47] I said Columbia University.

[00:07:48] This last look, the students taking over.

[00:07:51] Or, or like environmental activists, you know, ruining, you know, works of art

[00:07:58] and things like that, right?

[00:07:59] You know, gluing their hands onto a Picasso or whatever they're doing.

[00:08:03] That, that you can't really be a believer in the cause unless you do

[00:08:09] something that's very extreme.

[00:08:11] The only way to break through the clutter and be heard is to do

[00:08:15] something extreme.

[00:08:17] So I'm just playing the game as it's been presented to me.

[00:08:21] If, if, if I get on to sort of for a moment, trying to get inside the mind

[00:08:26] of somebody that thinks that it's okay to barge into the president of the

[00:08:31] cloud computing unit at Google, sit down and say, no, I'm not leaving

[00:08:36] because you have to listen to me.

[00:08:38] I am going to make a stand.

[00:08:39] It's that important to me.

[00:08:42] Yeah.

[00:08:42] We, we have, you know, you can't use the phrase that you're

[00:08:46] shouldn't, but you know, the old phrase or something to be said for the

[00:08:50] inmates are running the prison.

[00:08:52] Like this is now out of control.

[00:08:54] And again, it's a, there are appropriate mechanisms to

[00:08:57] share your displeasure.

[00:08:59] Right?

[00:09:00] Got it.

[00:09:01] But the notion that you can trespass, there are laws that prevent

[00:09:04] you from taking over a piece of property that you don't own.

[00:09:08] And ultimately we are employees at will, right?

[00:09:12] So you can work or they cannot have you work.

[00:09:15] It's an employer and employee has the right to walk away again and say, I

[00:09:19] just don't want my sweat, my efforts to be used for this.

[00:09:25] So this is to me not difficult for us to handle.

[00:09:29] It's just here's, here's what, what really strikes me as odd as I

[00:09:33] thought about this a lot of last couple of days.

[00:09:35] So thank you for agreeing to talk about this is, you know, we have

[00:09:39] for so long said we want diversity in the workforce and what we quickly

[00:09:44] are determining is that people don't want diversity.

[00:09:46] They only want diversity that they agree with.

[00:09:48] So why don't you just accept that there are different points of view.

[00:09:53] And if on balance, I decide that the organization, not on a single issue, but

[00:09:58] over time you look and say, this organization is kind of not in keeping

[00:10:02] with how I see the world then leave.

[00:10:05] That means you're not aligned with the organization, take your services

[00:10:08] and sell them somewhere else.

[00:10:11] Now, again, this doesn't apply to illegal and ethical, those sorts of

[00:10:15] environments. I'm not suggesting you should just deal with sexual

[00:10:18] harassment and or not because you're being paid.

[00:10:21] I'm not suggesting that I want to make very clear.

[00:10:23] I'm talking about issues where you just don't agree with the company's

[00:10:28] business perfectly legal and ethical business decisions who they want to

[00:10:33] sell their stuff to then you should move on.

[00:10:36] And we have just gotten too far.

[00:10:37] It's interesting, though, that I mentioned Columbia University

[00:10:40] intentionally because I think this is what's playing out.

[00:10:43] And you and I talk a lot about the diversity in the workforce.

[00:10:46] We have young people and tech is typically they skew a little younger

[00:10:52] in age who have been allowed to take over the president's office at

[00:10:56] their college campus, but allowed to block the entrances, the gates

[00:11:01] to Columbia University, who've been allowed to beat on a gate and

[00:11:06] declare I am hummus.

[00:11:08] Right. And there are no consequences directly to those folks.

[00:11:13] That generation then comes into the workforce and decides they're going

[00:11:18] to continue this behavior that we allowed them to engage in for

[00:11:22] the prior four or five or six years.

[00:11:25] That's a little bit of the disconnected term.

[00:11:27] We talk a lot about employment to I'm sorry, education to employment.

[00:11:32] And this is exactly what we're seeing, is we're seeing people who've been

[00:11:36] allowed to engage in certain behaviors, in some cases all the way K through 12

[00:11:40] and then K through 16, the additional four years or so after high school.

[00:11:45] And then we expect them to come into the workplace and understand that

[00:11:48] that's not how the world works.

[00:11:50] How do you react to that?

[00:11:51] Because I think that's our problem is people think this is OK.

[00:11:55] I cannot imagine and perhaps I'm just getting old.

[00:11:57] But Bob, you can't imagine disagreeing with your CEO and thinking

[00:12:01] you could occupy his or her office.

[00:12:04] No, but you know, I mean, we were a country that has a history

[00:12:08] of civil disobedience, right?

[00:12:11] That is done not at work.

[00:12:16] OK, not at work.

[00:12:18] You can you can you can.

[00:12:20] Well, I don't know.

[00:12:22] What do you consider a labor strike?

[00:12:25] Well, and that's a very for that is for representation.

[00:12:28] That is not I disagree with the company selling oil to ex.

[00:12:33] No, fair enough.

[00:12:35] Here's the thing. I agree with you, Johnny, that that, you know,

[00:12:39] there's there's a generation that is coming through the university system.

[00:12:43] But even that aren't again, this is my point about,

[00:12:47] you know, the the vitriol

[00:12:50] that is just sort of been laced into the system

[00:12:54] that if you are not like extreme, angry,

[00:12:59] you know, in really showing all your colors, then you're not really a believer.

[00:13:04] So so I have to do extreme things.

[00:13:07] And the problem with extreme is it needs to get more extreme to still be extreme.

[00:13:11] And so, you know, in the university system, which is a different topic,

[00:13:17] but there is generally this kind of antipathy

[00:13:21] for, you know, kind of structures as they exist today.

[00:13:27] So therefore you need to use your expression, raise hell,

[00:13:31] because that's actually your moral duty is to go raise hell.

[00:13:36] Right. And if you're not doing that, then that's actually unethical

[00:13:39] because now you're just sitting on the sidelines and that makes you complicit

[00:13:44] to these issues that actually and I'm role playing with you for a second.

[00:13:49] They're not debatable.

[00:13:50] You know, that whether it's climate, I'm picking on two things for some reason.

[00:13:55] Climate change, I'll pick three.

[00:13:57] Climate change, Donald Trump and Hamas Israel.

[00:14:02] Right. So so all this there's no debate there.

[00:14:05] That's just right and wrong, Johnny.

[00:14:06] That's evil and good.

[00:14:08] And I'm sorry, I'm not going to sit on the sidelines while the company

[00:14:11] engages in evil.

[00:14:13] Well, and my response is, well, first of all, how how

[00:14:18] how it's amazing what you think of yourself such that you can decide

[00:14:22] what's right and wrong.

[00:14:24] There are a few cases in, you know, you think about most issues.

[00:14:28] Most issues are in the gray.

[00:14:30] Now, pedophilia, like there's some things that aren't questionable.

[00:14:33] Right. But but whether or not Trump should be president or not is great.

[00:14:37] It's not right or wrong.

[00:14:39] We know that climate change is occurring, but whether or not

[00:14:41] a business should decide not to engage with another business

[00:14:45] or another country because of its position on climate change is not right or wrong.

[00:14:50] In other words, we've decided very quickly and this moral superiority

[00:14:55] has come through where I'm right.

[00:14:57] I'm the decider of what's right and wrong.

[00:15:00] And if you don't agree with me, you have to pay for it.

[00:15:03] And you can't I can't just tell you that I disagree.

[00:15:06] I've got to show you that I disagree and I've got to get other people

[00:15:09] to show you. And if that means disrupting everything, I'm willing to do it.

[00:15:12] You mentioned it.

[00:15:13] I mean, the notion of some single mom who needs to go to work

[00:15:17] to feed her kids, trying to get across the Golden Gate Bridge being stuck.

[00:15:22] She can't get to work.

[00:15:23] Her kids can't get to school.

[00:15:25] She may not be able to pay rent this month because you're making some point

[00:15:29] like that is not cool.

[00:15:31] There are ways to absolutely share your frustration,

[00:15:35] your disagreement, your point of view on any topic.

[00:15:38] And that is true of our country.

[00:15:40] That's the beauty of our democracy.

[00:15:42] But there's time and place.

[00:15:44] There is a way, you know, shum right now has a we've committed

[00:15:47] to this one million.

[00:15:48] I want to hear you talk about this. Thank you.

[00:15:50] You know, because this is it like civility can be shown

[00:15:55] through a conversation or your conduct.

[00:15:57] I think it's fairly uncivil to take over someone's office.

[00:16:00] I mean, let's talk about it, right?

[00:16:02] I don't agree with you at work.

[00:16:03] So when you come back, I sit in your cube and I won't let you sit down.

[00:16:08] What? Because you don't agree with.

[00:16:10] Come on, stop it.

[00:16:12] And again, that's where I think we really, really got to pause,

[00:16:15] step back and say, are we acting?

[00:16:18] Are we speaking civilly toward each other?

[00:16:20] Are we respecting each other and the dignity of your fellow human being

[00:16:25] even when you don't agree?

[00:16:27] So it's interesting.

[00:16:29] It's actually pretty easy to be civil to people when you agree with them.

[00:16:33] And here's his background, et cetera.

[00:16:36] Right. The challenge is being civil when you don't.

[00:16:39] So I've been working with on an initiative with the governor of Utah,

[00:16:44] Governor Cox, about disagreeing better.

[00:16:47] It was so well said.

[00:16:49] I love the name of his initiative.

[00:16:51] We need to disagree better.

[00:16:53] And that really is at the crux of this conversation.

[00:16:57] It is OK to have a point of view that perhaps your employer,

[00:17:01] in this case, Google, should not in any way help,

[00:17:06] you know, aid the country of Israel.

[00:17:11] That's your point of view. That's OK.

[00:17:13] How can you disagree better?

[00:17:15] And I would submit to you taking over an office, refusing to work,

[00:17:20] trashing your employer.

[00:17:22] I mean, they're just things that don't make sense to me.

[00:17:26] And as an employer and someone who represents a ton of employers,

[00:17:30] no one thinks this is a good idea because tomorrow was the topic.

[00:17:33] Right. Exactly.

[00:17:35] Now, employees on any given day, someone could be taking over the CEO's office

[00:17:40] because they don't share the company's point of view.

[00:17:43] That doesn't make sense.

[00:17:44] It's not not something we can't operationalize that.

[00:17:47] Well, you know, gosh, there's so many things on diversity.

[00:17:51] And back to your point on that, like you can never please everybody.

[00:17:55] That's never going to happen.

[00:17:57] So what you said on boards.

[00:18:00] So I'm curious, you know, given the reality of what's going on

[00:18:05] and as you said, the feeder system seems like it's going to

[00:18:10] provide more of these inputs.

[00:18:13] Can you see yourself in a board meeting, Johnny, where

[00:18:17] we've got the opportunity to do business with Israel?

[00:18:21] Just you said, as the example and somebody on the board goes,

[00:18:25] we can do that, and that's a very lucrative contract.

[00:18:29] We're going to piss off a lot of our employees by doing this.

[00:18:34] So you actually make you really take into account.

[00:18:38] What's the reaction going to be to taking this decision?

[00:18:42] Yes. And we actually this happens a lot, a lot more than we can imagine.

[00:18:48] If you remember famously the NBA when they were asked to pull out of China

[00:18:53] a couple of years back, and that was a significant decision

[00:18:57] when we right after post George Floyd,

[00:19:00] various organizations were trying to decide with whom they will do business,

[00:19:04] what communities like this is part of our existence and will be forever.

[00:19:08] What we've said is this is where you hear me talk a lot about culture

[00:19:12] and a company's values, companies and boards in particular

[00:19:17] should help the organization become real clear,

[00:19:20] call it cultural clarity about what our values are, our value systems.

[00:19:24] And that will help largely dictate when you will do one thing versus something else.

[00:19:29] But again, it's not driven by five percent of your employee base doesn't like it

[00:19:34] because you won't ever make a decision if you're looking to your point

[00:19:37] about 100 percent commitment from your employees.

[00:19:39] It's impossible to achieve that.

[00:19:41] What you should do is say this is who we are.

[00:19:43] And I'll give you an example.

[00:19:45] There are companies, for example, who sell military goods.

[00:19:51] A lot of our defense industrial complex companies, you know, I get it.

[00:19:55] No one likes war.

[00:19:57] But I also get it that you've got to protect the homeland.

[00:20:00] Those are really mission critical organizations.

[00:20:03] And so what we need to do is be clear with people coming in the door.

[00:20:07] You are working for it.

[00:20:08] Name it. Lockheed, Mark, Boeing, name the, you know, Raytheon.

[00:20:12] And this is what we do.

[00:20:14] And if this doesn't work for you, if you don't like war

[00:20:17] and you don't like war games, then you shouldn't work here.

[00:20:20] That's the board's job is to help an organization be really, really clear

[00:20:25] about what it does.

[00:20:26] And then HR's job is to make sure that that culture

[00:20:30] is made very clear on the way into the organization.

[00:20:33] I'll talk about HR people who go from there.

[00:20:37] So I think I think it's an opportunity for us.

[00:20:39] You know, of course, I see an HR opportunity in everything.

[00:20:43] But but I think it's so with one hundred sixty one million people

[00:20:46] going to work every day in the U.S.

[00:20:48] This is and it's half almost of the U.S. population, right?

[00:20:51] This is the conversation like we have to go back to companies

[00:20:55] and as boards say, this is who we are.

[00:20:57] This is who we aren't.

[00:20:59] And then say that to employees and then employees

[00:21:01] have to make a decision on the way in no matter how much you pay me.

[00:21:05] I don't want to work here.

[00:21:06] See, here's the real statement to me.

[00:21:08] You know, it's like, don't tell me that you love me,

[00:21:10] show that you love me if those people feel so strongly about Google.

[00:21:14] Quit if you say I just won't work for a company that that has this

[00:21:19] one billion dollar contract and you're so great at what you do,

[00:21:23] you'll find another job.

[00:21:27] How does that sound? I know you don't like that.

[00:21:28] No, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:21:30] I'm going to let that sit for a minute.

[00:21:32] I just get but really you and it's not to be threatening.

[00:21:36] It's just real.

[00:21:37] Would I there are people who are serious environmentalists

[00:21:40] who won't ever go work for a petroleum company.

[00:21:44] Right.

[00:21:45] There are folks who won't who, for example, on the very hotly debated

[00:21:51] topic of abortion, won't go work in an abortion clinic.

[00:21:54] If you are a devout.

[00:21:55] They will work in a state and work in a state.

[00:21:58] Right. So I got it like there is nothing at all wrong.

[00:22:02] And I hope everyone's hearing me.

[00:22:03] We are not suggesting that you shouldn't have sincerely held

[00:22:07] religion, religious or otherwise, societal beliefs.

[00:22:10] It's just you can't you can't require everyone else to agree with you.

[00:22:14] And you can't go into an organization and make them.

[00:22:16] I have a good friend who works for a large.

[00:22:20] What's that company? Tobacco company.

[00:22:22] Oh, my gosh.

[00:22:23] It's like and it was so funny.

[00:22:25] I got to tell you this is a funny story.

[00:22:26] So we're sitting in a meeting at a board meeting.

[00:22:29] Funny that you mentioned this at a board meeting.

[00:22:31] And we imagine around the board there are people from the

[00:22:37] alcohol companies, so spirits, beer and alcohol companies.

[00:22:42] You have cigarette companies and oil companies around a table.

[00:22:47] And of course, one of the employers, one of the board members

[00:22:51] who at that time, interestingly, I'm going to get to the punch of it.

[00:22:55] Work for McDonald's and punch line.

[00:22:58] And so the McDonald's guy says, you know, we should really question

[00:23:02] whether or not these we should have affiliations with all of these vice.

[00:23:07] Oh, my gosh.

[00:23:09] OK. And it was hilarious.

[00:23:12] And you could just see them like, what are you talking about?

[00:23:15] So finally, one guy got gets really aggressive and he says,

[00:23:19] let me check on something. Let me stop.

[00:23:21] The major cause of health care health problems is America's obesity.

[00:23:26] America's obesity and and salt leading to hypertension

[00:23:30] and therefore strokes and heart attacks.

[00:23:31] He said, and you do it.

[00:23:33] You supersize it every day and you grab children, Mr.

[00:23:35] McDonald's early.

[00:23:37] You get them hooked on this stuff.

[00:23:39] So how dare you sit here and judge us about,

[00:23:43] you know, from whom we do, who do we do business with?

[00:23:47] Because you want to get on this.

[00:23:48] So it was a really fascinating conversation to watch

[00:23:51] because it gets to the crux of this.

[00:23:54] Like, it's so easy to get and say, I'm better than you

[00:23:58] or we do less harm to the world than you do.

[00:24:00] And pointed to other people that is and they pushed back

[00:24:04] very significantly and said, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[00:24:07] You have a point of view if you want to be here, be here.

[00:24:09] But if you don't, you don't.

[00:24:10] And the board made a decision that this is who we are

[00:24:14] and the people who don't want to do business with us on account of this

[00:24:17] or the people who don't want to work here because they don't want

[00:24:19] to work for a company where there's a tobacco person on the board,

[00:24:22] then they need to move on. Right.

[00:24:24] So let me ask you this, because they're this isn't going to go away.

[00:24:27] Like you said, there's going to be a new topic tomorrow,

[00:24:29] whatever it is.

[00:24:33] There's people who are actually inspired by what they saw happened with Google

[00:24:37] and like, hey, how do I do this in my company?

[00:24:40] I'm willing to, you know, take one for the team,

[00:24:44] you know, for my cause at my company.

[00:24:47] Right. Soon to be my ex company.

[00:24:49] What counsel would you give the HR

[00:24:54] team at companies to as a practical matter?

[00:24:59] Like how to to try and defuse this, even anticipate it.

[00:25:05] Right. So they're going to be reactive, they're being proactive to this

[00:25:09] so that it's going to happen.

[00:25:11] It's just a matter of what shows up on our newsfeed.

[00:25:14] What can an HR person, an HR leader listening to this podcast

[00:25:19] take away as one, two, three things that he or she could do?

[00:25:22] Right. So number one, you made the big point, and that is get proactive.

[00:25:27] We any HR person who believes, oh, that's a Google problem.

[00:25:30] It's not my problem is being naive because it's going to come to your neighborhood.

[00:25:34] I can assure you, especially because some people are willing to lose their jobs.

[00:25:38] Some people are willing to be arrested for it.

[00:25:40] Right. So the idea that I am a little

[00:25:44] concerned about what message this might send to the broader workforce.

[00:25:49] So the first thing is that you and your team and we talked about boards,

[00:25:52] your board, your senior management, your CEO, you have got to sit down

[00:25:55] and decide sort of how you're going to do with it as opposed to reacting

[00:25:59] in the moment when something like this confronts you.

[00:26:02] Secondly, and it's really important,

[00:26:04] you've got to prepare your communications and action plan right now.

[00:26:08] You need to have a plan so that when this happens, I'm ready.

[00:26:11] So start with like, who are we values?

[00:26:14] And then here's our plan.

[00:26:16] When this happens, this is what we're going to do.

[00:26:19] Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, with one and two in order,

[00:26:23] you've got to start talking with your employees.

[00:26:25] Any smart employer right now in their employee

[00:26:28] newsletters and your communications should actually try to tackle this thing up front.

[00:26:33] Without judgment, I wouldn't say, you know, listen,

[00:26:35] how Google handled or how the employees handle it.

[00:26:38] I would say topic of the day, just as we're discussing right now.

[00:26:41] This happened. And then make clear to your employees

[00:26:44] what the expectations are at your company.

[00:26:48] So that people know you can do this, but this is how we're going to react.

[00:26:52] And then employees know.

[00:26:53] So you will have someone who pushes this as them.

[00:26:56] And undoubtedly, this is not the first or the last time

[00:27:00] we're going to see this kind of behavior.

[00:27:01] But your employees need to know what is going to be acceptable

[00:27:05] and what is unacceptable in your shop.

[00:27:07] And you can't wait until you just you can't wait

[00:27:09] until it happens to you to message that.

[00:27:12] I think you should say up front.

[00:27:14] This is what we will and will not tolerate

[00:27:17] and then decide if you want to work here so that when it happens,

[00:27:20] this is a non event.

[00:27:20] If someone decides they're going to go outside and play outside of the box

[00:27:24] within your shop, then you take them outside of the box.

[00:27:28] It's just that simple.

[00:27:29] And that's what I think the big takeaway for so many of us

[00:27:32] is to reinforce, remind in a non-threatening way

[00:27:36] our employees that we we absolutely we like

[00:27:40] and value diversity of perspective and opinion.

[00:27:43] How and when matters and we know for sure

[00:27:47] when in our workplace does not matter and how you do it.

[00:27:50] Taking over offices does not that won't be accepted.

[00:27:54] Do that. And then I think we're on our way.

[00:27:56] But that's the only thing you can do is be prepared for it when it happens.

[00:27:59] And last, last thing, have you seen examples

[00:28:03] of companies that have done a good job of creating

[00:28:08] communication channels for the broader?

[00:28:12] It's like, you know, there's like a lot of it's an ERG exactly.

[00:28:16] But it's something that is like, you know, we get it.

[00:28:18] We want to hear all these opinions, right?

[00:28:21] We value the diversity of opinion.

[00:28:24] But we're going to create a forum where that can happen

[00:28:27] in a more civil, you know, structured way

[00:28:32] so that it doesn't just become this tinderbox and blow up

[00:28:36] like it did at Google.

[00:28:37] So a couple of things. One, that would be nice.

[00:28:40] But that's really, really complicated and it's time consuming. Why?

[00:28:44] Because every one of your 50,000 employees has a hot button issue.

[00:28:50] So how much time do you devote to all of these?

[00:28:55] Every day there's a conversation being had about something.

[00:28:58] And, you know, that that is frankly debatable to your point.

[00:29:01] It could be climate change. It could be abortion.

[00:29:04] It could be DEI.

[00:29:05] You could spend all day having employees convened

[00:29:08] to talk about hot button issues.

[00:29:11] I so and there'll be a few times.

[00:29:14] I mean, George Floyd was a moment where the entire country stopped

[00:29:17] and kind of had and we were all sitting at home during the pandemic.

[00:29:20] So we had a racial reckoning moment every once in a while.

[00:29:23] There are times like that.

[00:29:24] But I think we have to be careful about getting into the business

[00:29:26] of using the work time, the workday

[00:29:29] to have employees discuss everything that matters to them.

[00:29:33] It's just not feasible.

[00:29:35] And where do you stop when you start one then?

[00:29:38] And is it one session or is it two sessions?

[00:29:40] So does everyone get 30 minutes a day

[00:29:42] to come and talk about what's on your mind?

[00:29:44] And like, it's really hard to manage what you're describing.

[00:29:47] I think what I'm hearing and this is not definitive,

[00:29:51] but this is what I'm hearing employers say is this.

[00:29:54] You can within the right constraints,

[00:29:58] like you can talk about what you want to talk about, obviously,

[00:30:00] in your personal life, we want you to keep it civil.

[00:30:03] But work is largely for work.

[00:30:05] I mean, that's kind of what we want you to do.

[00:30:07] And ultimately, here are here's what we stand for.

[00:30:10] And you've got to decide whether or not you want to work here or not.

[00:30:14] So I don't know. This is a it's a weird answer that I'm giving you.

[00:30:17] I understand having and trying to create places

[00:30:20] for people to have these conversations, which got 40 hours on a work week.

[00:30:25] And if you have people engaging all day on things that matter

[00:30:29] that are not at all directly related to your company's productivity

[00:30:32] and profitability, I just don't know how you how you control them.

[00:30:37] Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with that.

[00:30:39] They're sort of the one of your favorite lines.

[00:30:42] I know bring your whole self to work. Right. Right.

[00:30:45] And do you really want your surgeon bringing her whole self to work?

[00:30:48] Maybe not.

[00:30:49] You know, we have more people.

[00:30:51] Right. For that matter. Right.

[00:30:53] But but but you know, the.

[00:30:56] It's just an acknowledgment of where we are as society.

[00:31:00] And there's got to be something between ain't got time for that

[00:31:04] because that's just not practical and holy crap,

[00:31:07] we just had a mushroom cloud at our home office

[00:31:12] because something very major just blew up at work in our workplace.

[00:31:18] But Bob, I mean, I get it and I totally agree with you.

[00:31:21] I think what I'm struggling with is so after the Google

[00:31:25] should every employer now stop and give some period of time

[00:31:30] some forum, whether it be virtual or or in person

[00:31:34] for their employees to talk about this.

[00:31:37] I just don't know how realistic that is.

[00:31:39] I mean, who you think about it's one thing.

[00:31:42] Sure, I could give you an online portal or whatever

[00:31:46] for people to go in and throw their but that's called all social media.

[00:31:51] That's what media is.

[00:31:53] You can do that.

[00:31:54] Why do I as an employer?

[00:31:57] And I've got to moderate it.

[00:31:59] I've got to make sure that people aren't creating hostile environments for this.

[00:32:04] I mean, you're just adding a whole layer of responsibility

[00:32:07] and obligation to an employer.

[00:32:09] And last night, you had the bombs that hit Iran.

[00:32:16] OK, so what are we supposed to talk about this morning?

[00:32:19] I don't know if they hit the bomb.

[00:32:20] I don't know the details of it, but the strikes, let's call it that.

[00:32:23] So that's a big issue for a lot of people.

[00:32:26] Should we right now out of our eight hour day on a Friday or whatever

[00:32:30] day of the week it is say, OK, some percentage of my employees

[00:32:34] are going to really be bothered by this.

[00:32:36] Let's give them a form during the workday to talk about this.

[00:32:40] I don't know.

[00:32:41] That's not that that's the answer.

[00:32:43] So let's just kind of revisit and we'll tie it up with this

[00:32:47] is clearly communicate the mission and the culture of the company.

[00:32:52] Right. At a very senior level and make that very well known

[00:32:56] across the organization, be proactive,

[00:32:59] not reactive of if this happens, what are we going to do?

[00:33:03] What's the playbook?

[00:33:05] What was the third point, Johnny, because I missed one

[00:33:07] to tell your employees.

[00:33:09] Yeah. I mean, you've got to make clear so that everyone understands

[00:33:13] if you do this, this is what's likely to happen on our side.

[00:33:16] So this is where you work.

[00:33:18] Yeah. OK. Awesome. Johnny.

[00:33:21] Again, we tackle things that like don't have a definitive answer.

[00:33:25] There's not a period at the end of the sentence here

[00:33:27] at the end of this episode.

[00:33:29] What I just so appreciate is your willingness to kind of jump

[00:33:33] into the middle of it and at least help people kind of unpack this

[00:33:36] a little bit and be able to go back to their office.

[00:33:39] And how can we think about this in a helpful, constructive

[00:33:43] and I would add civil way? Right.

[00:33:46] So pleasure as always, Johnny. Thank you.

[00:33:49] My pleasure. Awesome.

[00:33:50] Thank you guys, everybody, for taking a few minutes out of your day.

[00:33:53] If there's topics you would like to hear us discuss,

[00:33:55] we'd love to hear them from you.

[00:33:57] You can communicate with us at the work wire.

[00:33:59] Thank you so much for that.

[00:34:01] And Johnny, awesome.

[00:34:03] No, that's right.

[00:34:04] No, I love it.

[00:34:06] All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye bye.

[00:34:08] Check out career dot club for personalized help with your job search.

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