The Future of Contingent Workforce Technology with Vidhya Srinivasan of Magnit

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[00:01:20] Hey, this is William Tincup and Ryan Leary. You are listening and hopefully watching the Use Case Podcast.

[00:01:25] Today we have Vidhya on from Magnit. We're going to be learning all about her and the technology.

[00:01:32] So, first of all, Ryan, how are you doing?

[00:01:34] I am fantastic and excited to learn.

[00:01:38] I don't know Magnit, so I'm excited to learn.

[00:01:41] I am too, actually.

[00:01:42] First time we're here.

[00:01:44] Ryan always gets upset if I don't ask him how he's doing.

[00:01:49] So, that's kind of a bit.

[00:01:51] Well, there's backstory here.

[00:01:54] There is backstory there.

[00:01:55] There is backstory. He often forgets to even say that I'm here.

[00:02:00] It's true.

[00:02:01] Yeah.

[00:02:01] So, Vidhya, would you do us a favor and the audience a favor and introduce yourself and Magnit?

[00:02:08] Sure. First of all, thanks for having me.

[00:02:11] Great to meet you both, Ryan and Tincup.

[00:02:14] So, make sure.

[00:02:15] Notice you said my name first.

[00:02:17] I like that.

[00:02:18] You can get the reference right there.

[00:02:21] Yeah.

[00:02:21] So, Vidhya Srinivasan, I am the chief product and marketing officer for Magnit.

[00:02:29] Magnit is a pioneer and a leader in a contingent workforce management industry.

[00:02:36] And people know Magnit as, like, you know, when you think of contingent, some people call

[00:02:41] it external workforce.

[00:02:43] Some people think of temp workforce.

[00:02:45] You know, you have IC, gig, workers.

[00:02:48] So, any of it that does not fit the full-time employee bill, you know, is what Magnit helps

[00:02:56] Fortune 500 companies around the globe help, you know, structure the program from a strategic

[00:03:02] standpoint.

[00:03:03] But all the capabilities and services we provide is actually powered by our technology, which

[00:03:11] we call the Magnit platform.

[00:03:12] And we recently, you know, just, I think it's been six weeks, we launched our, you know,

[00:03:20] a new version of the platform that's AI-powered and outcome-driven.

[00:03:25] And that's what I'm excited to talk to you guys about today.

[00:03:28] That's fantastic.

[00:03:30] So, just so I'm clear and the audience is clear, you do both the services side, delivery,

[00:03:37] as, and that you run your own technology rather than using somebody else's VMS or something

[00:03:43] like that?

[00:03:44] Yes, exactly.

[00:03:45] So, we are a tech-enabled services company.

[00:03:49] Very cool.

[00:03:49] Is a way to put it.

[00:03:50] Yeah.

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:51] Very cool.

[00:03:52] Most aren't.

[00:03:53] I mean, Ryan grew up in that space.

[00:03:55] And he could probably tell you a little bit more about it than I can.

[00:03:58] But in dealing with a lot of staffing, RPO, MSPs over the years, it's like, it's cobbled

[00:04:06] together.

[00:04:07] Yeah.

[00:04:08] Or worse, years ago, it was proprietary.

[00:04:10] They built their own stuff and they were horrible at it because they're not tech companies.

[00:04:14] They're not, that wasn't their bit.

[00:04:17] Yeah.

[00:04:17] So, I'm excited to learn about Magnit.

[00:04:20] Tell us a little bit more about it.

[00:04:22] Yeah.

[00:04:23] So, you know, obviously, as you asked, we are a tech-enabled services company.

[00:04:29] So, we have a layer of, you know, being the managed services provider who can help you

[00:04:35] guide customers from totally an unmanaged stage of maturity, if you will, right?

[00:04:41] So, customers sometimes when you're especially small and just starting where your contingent

[00:04:45] workforce is not a big, you know, population, you end up managing yourself, right?

[00:04:52] Through procurement where you have services, you know, SOWs that you open, get vendors

[00:04:57] into the door.

[00:04:58] And all of a sudden, it grows into this, you know, completely an unmanaged spend.

[00:05:04] And that's where, you know, companies usually struggle.

[00:05:06] And they look for companies like us that can help, you know, to help them through that journey

[00:05:14] of creating a program and then really leveraging the technology and the data and analytics that

[00:05:23] can help them sort of future-proof what they need to drive, right?

[00:05:27] And the goal of how we do it as a tech-enabled service is really threefold, right?

[00:05:32] So, one is really simplify the way we engage with the contingent program.

[00:05:38] As you can imagine, if it's unmanaged today, right?

[00:05:42] You, as a client or a hiring manager or in procurement, you know, you really have to do all the work,

[00:05:50] sort of, you know, figuring out where the vendors are, where, you know, think about the,

[00:05:56] you know, freelancers, right?

[00:05:58] Ecosystem that's growing up today.

[00:06:00] There's a lot of talent management platforms.

[00:06:02] So, the heavy lifting of knowing what you want and, you know, how it funnels to all the

[00:06:10] hiring managers within your organization is a pretty heavy, heavy task.

[00:06:14] So, that's where Magnet can help.

[00:06:16] And one of the ways in which our technology helps is really with the system of engagement, right?

[00:06:22] Right.

[00:06:22] If you look at traditional VMS, and Brian looks like you, you know what the VMS is.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] You know, including ourselves, right?

[00:06:31] I mean, this is a 30-year-old company, Magnet, you know, and all the vendors, right?

[00:06:38] The first VMS was launched in 1995.

[00:06:42] And Pro Unlimited, formerly, that's Magnet now.

[00:06:46] So, it was formerly, was the first one to launch the VMS to the market, right?

[00:06:50] So, when you think about the complexity in the workflows, the amount of manual process involved

[00:06:57] and the, you know, the handoff between services and technology, like you said before, it's

[00:07:04] not like, you know, a SaaS product, right?

[00:07:08] It's still sort of antiquated and sort of like the start and stops between where services comes

[00:07:14] in and where technology picks up.

[00:07:17] So, it's very fragmented, very siloed.

[00:07:20] And so, a lot of what, you know, today's or the current landscape of VMS is have been very

[00:07:27] antiquated in that sense of thinking about automation, seamless integrations into the

[00:07:32] ecosystem, whether it's ERP system, HRIS system, right?

[00:07:36] There's tons of systems.

[00:07:38] So, how do we really simplify that engagement?

[00:07:40] So, you as the user or the consumer of this program has easy access to, you know, recruit,

[00:07:50] source, hire, onboard, right?

[00:07:54] Approve all of the processes on an everyday basis that people go through can be streamlined

[00:08:00] and simplified is a big part of what, you know, we are introducing with our technology.

[00:08:06] And the cool thing is, is really we've just in the last six weeks announced our new Gen

[00:08:13] AI assistant, just called Maggie.

[00:08:17] And Maggie can help you do all those things, everyday tasks, you know, with the simple voice

[00:08:25] command, just like, you know, I do my shopping with Alexa, right?

[00:08:30] I hope it's better than Google because Google does not love me.

[00:08:35] Yeah, Gemini, is that what you're referring to?

[00:08:38] Yeah, just simple, like, talk to the text and, like, basic stuff.

[00:08:43] It just doesn't understand me.

[00:08:45] Yeah, I mean, I think that actually you hit on something very core to our philosophy, Ryan,

[00:08:51] which is, right, when you think about Maggie and the possibilities of Gen AI, right, there

[00:08:57] are people who are excited, right?

[00:09:00] Obviously, nerds and psychics, like even including myself, possibilities are infinite.

[00:09:04] But then there are also people who are skeptical about data privacy, security, right?

[00:09:10] A lot of things that is going to be a pretty, you know, uphill battle to deal with infosec and

[00:09:17] IT teams and all of that stuff.

[00:09:19] So I think there's the balance between skepticism and the excitement.

[00:09:24] But at the end of the day, we want this to be more practical, right, for consumers of what

[00:09:30] we are providing.

[00:09:31] And we kind of think about these in three types of use cases, right?

[00:09:35] So one is executing day-to-day tasks.

[00:09:38] So as an anecdote or, you know, one of the things that we work with customers and hiring

[00:09:45] managers is creating a requisition, right?

[00:09:48] So I just want to hire a software engineer in San Francisco, right?

[00:09:52] Let's just say that.

[00:09:52] And if you think about the process in today's world of the BMS, the combo of services and

[00:09:59] tech, it takes on an average of five to seven days to just get through the process of opening

[00:10:06] a requisition, telling them what they're looking for, what the budget you need, and potentially

[00:10:11] telling your staffing companies, I need this.

[00:10:14] This is what I'm looking for, right?

[00:10:17] But with the concept of Gen AI and really the ability to, you know, leverage our, you know,

[00:10:26] system of record, as we call it, which is the data, which has these talent pools, right,

[00:10:32] that you can pull from.

[00:10:34] And it could be anywhere from, you know, your own direct sourcing your brand of internal pool

[00:10:40] that you have.

[00:10:40] You could have, you know, staffing supplier provided talent pools, or you could be plugged

[00:10:46] into one of those freelance management systems, right?

[00:10:50] But the ability for our, like Maggie to look at all of your talent pools and say, here's

[00:10:56] all the recommended, you know, relevant candidates for what you're looking for.

[00:11:00] And immediately being able to, for you to be able to select a few and then pass it on to

[00:11:06] your supplier to say, go process these, right?

[00:11:09] Or set up the interview, right?

[00:11:11] So those are the kinds of things that could really take the five to seven days to matter

[00:11:16] a few hours or a day, right?

[00:11:18] At the max.

[00:11:19] Again, it'll vary by the adoption and the comfort level of every company and all of that.

[00:11:26] But the idea of simplifying that engagement and drastically having an impact on day-to-day

[00:11:32] use cases from requisition to sourcing or finding the right talent or even approving time cards,

[00:11:38] you know?

[00:11:39] Being able to do that with the voice command is where I think our approach is to focus on

[00:11:45] those things.

[00:11:46] So it drastically changes the lives of people that are, you know, like really frustrated,

[00:11:53] right?

[00:11:53] In a lot of ways today.

[00:11:55] Yeah.

[00:11:55] So a question, I know we're going to get deep into everything which y'all do and product

[00:12:01] and all.

[00:12:01] But you mentioned something that made me think about the time that I spent working in this

[00:12:09] area.

[00:12:10] Five to seven days just to open up the requisition, get it through, get it into the agencies.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:17] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend Mark Pfeffer and his show,

[00:12:23] People Tech.

[00:12:23] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals

[00:12:29] happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM, that's the show you need to listen to.

[00:12:36] Go to the Work Defined Network, search up People Tech, Mark Pfeffer, you can find them anywhere.

[00:12:43] It was that when I was in, that's 15 years ago.

[00:12:48] Like it hasn't changed.

[00:12:49] She did say antiquated.

[00:12:51] Yeah.

[00:12:51] Oh, I am kind of antiquated.

[00:12:53] That's a surprise, right?

[00:12:55] But I mean, it's really still that long?

[00:12:57] Yeah.

[00:12:57] It is.

[00:12:58] And, you know, the, and one of the reasons like, you know, I'm here and, you know, I've

[00:13:04] recruited a lot of new tech talent into the company is I come from tech, right?

[00:13:09] I mean, my entire life has been in SaaS.

[00:13:12] And I think it's just the evolution, Ryan, to your point, piece of technology innovation

[00:13:19] has just been non-existent in a lot of ways, right?

[00:13:25] A lot of the vendors, right, including ourselves, were sort of working around the service construct,

[00:13:33] right?

[00:13:33] As opposed to thinking about technology front-ending a lot of things, right?

[00:13:38] So it's just the way of shifting the way we think about how technology can be leveraged.

[00:13:43] And one of the things I tell users, because I was just on a two-week trip to EMEA, like

[00:13:50] to visit some of our customers and talk about Platform and Maggie and a bunch of other things,

[00:13:55] is it's, you know, for so long, all of us, right, users have spent time and budget and resources training

[00:14:06] people to use the system.

[00:14:08] Right.

[00:14:09] That's just, that cannot be the, right?

[00:14:11] Right.

[00:14:12] We are the users of the system.

[00:14:13] It has to be simple.

[00:14:14] So it's really shifting that to say, it's time for the system to train to the user.

[00:14:22] Right.

[00:14:23] Right?

[00:14:24] So it's really kind of rethinking, reimagining the, you know, the technology value in the

[00:14:32] equation of how the program is getting delivered to the customer.

[00:14:36] Well, I think there's two things there that I'd like to unpack.

[00:14:40] One is a lot of folks in the staffing, RPO, outsourced recruiting, we'll just say.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:47] They start in services.

[00:14:48] They're not tech.

[00:14:49] You mentioned that.

[00:14:50] The folks that even tried to build tech have failed, by and large.

[00:14:57] Not every case.

[00:15:00] It's because they don't, they're not technologists.

[00:15:03] They don't think like technologists and they don't have the staff that are technologists.

[00:15:07] So we see a lot of failure of things that's kind of gets spun out or acquired and then

[00:15:14] spun out again.

[00:15:15] So that happens a lot.

[00:15:16] The second point is, I believe, Ryan, the reason that things haven't changed as much since

[00:15:23] you were in staffing and then at RPO Conexa is the staffing buyer, the margins are so thin

[00:15:33] that they're not really innovators.

[00:15:35] I mean, they might say they're innovators, like at Staffing World or Staffing Industry

[00:15:39] Analyst or something like that, or CWS.

[00:15:42] They might say they're innovators.

[00:15:44] They're not innovators.

[00:15:45] They're laggards.

[00:15:47] And so I can see kind of the combination of those two things, them not being really tech

[00:15:52] savvy and also it just being really thin on the profit side.

[00:15:59] So they need a technology company.

[00:16:01] I'm going to say your technology first, service is second.

[00:16:04] You might not like that.

[00:16:06] But they need a technology company that actually understands that and understands them.

[00:16:12] They're not going to push the boundaries of innovation.

[00:16:15] That's not their bid.

[00:16:17] But their bid is trying to get the candidates, a high-quality candidate, as fast as possible,

[00:16:23] as cheap as possible.

[00:16:25] That's their bid.

[00:16:27] And you're enabling that.

[00:16:28] Hopefully, you're enabling that.

[00:16:30] Yeah.

[00:16:30] I would say they're spot on because that's another discovery for me, right?

[00:16:37] When I came into the industry two and a half years ago, you're dealing with procurement.

[00:16:41] And Ryan, I think procurement, we know that has not changed.

[00:16:45] No.

[00:16:46] There's one goal, which is cost savings, right, for the company.

[00:16:51] And that's the right goal.

[00:16:53] I mean, you need the traction balances for the organization.

[00:16:57] But I think one of the things that I'm starting to see, which is very encouraging, is the fact

[00:17:04] that now, you know, contingent workforce, again, the evolution needs to happen.

[00:17:10] It's like more and more workers, you know, baby boomers retiring, new people entering the

[00:17:16] workforce, and the younger generation wanting to really, you know, think about work as the

[00:17:23] uberization of work, right?

[00:17:24] So they just want to be gig workers.

[00:17:26] They just want to do some of this, right?

[00:17:28] They don't think about work the way, at least my generation, you know, without going into

[00:17:34] specific generations.

[00:17:35] But, you know, at least what I used to think about, right, is it's my job.

[00:17:39] I do it full time, right?

[00:17:40] That's not how people are thinking about it.

[00:17:43] And with the growth of IC gig economy, right, broadly, I think the expectation to treat FTEs

[00:17:51] and contingent workers is also sort of raising the bar, which means, you know, HR gets involved

[00:17:58] or talent acquisition gets involved.

[00:18:00] And I think that's when the actual notion of not thinking about contingent workforce as

[00:18:06] a cost savings effort, but really in the construct of talent and ensuring that, you know, the

[00:18:14] talent represents, you know, in a way talks to the brand of the company, right?

[00:18:19] So that's why you're starting to see direct sourcing sort of, you know, taking some front,

[00:18:24] you know, front place in organizations to say, let me do direct sourcing of the temp workers

[00:18:29] with my brand because...

[00:18:31] So I think it's a healthy evolution that's happening, even though I don't know why it

[00:18:37] took so long, but it's happening at the right time.

[00:18:40] And I think...

[00:18:42] Well, I can tell you that there's two things that we see.

[00:18:45] One is practitioners, both HR and TA, they have to care more about candidate experience

[00:18:53] because of the transparency, the error of transparency that we live in.

[00:18:56] So they're kind of being forced at gunpoint to care more about that.

[00:19:01] And secondly, candidate behavior has changed drastically, especially when everyone's carrying

[00:19:09] around this, they apply to a job.

[00:19:13] It's like texting someone, right?

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:15] You know, when you're on WhatsApp and you text someone, you expect them to text you back.

[00:19:18] That's how they view companies and jobs.

[00:19:22] Yeah.

[00:19:22] So their buyer...

[00:19:23] I say buyer behavior.

[00:19:24] Their behavior has changed, which is forcing change everywhere else.

[00:19:29] I don't think that HR or TA wanted this change or wants this thing.

[00:19:36] I think they're dragging and kicking.

[00:19:39] They're going to be pulled into this.

[00:19:40] But if they don't respond to candidates in seconds and minutes, those candidates are gone.

[00:19:46] Yeah.

[00:19:47] Ryan, I think I interrupted you with a question.

[00:19:50] Sorry about that.

[00:19:50] No, so I'm really curious here, and this maybe is a little off topic, a little off product here,

[00:19:58] but I'm really curious about the evolution.

[00:20:00] So we've talked about a little bit about the evolution of VMS and you all through 30 years,

[00:20:07] right?

[00:20:07] You've been around for 30 years.

[00:20:08] Yeah, three years.

[00:20:09] Yeah.

[00:20:09] So where do we...

[00:20:12] Where does this change, which I know is happening now, but where does this become mainstream in

[00:20:18] in the industry and expected on the part of the enterprise?

[00:20:24] Where is this just...

[00:20:25] Okay, we're no longer dealing with the antiquated software.

[00:20:28] It has to be this, and we're moving forward.

[00:20:32] Yeah, I think we are at the cusp of it.

[00:20:37] You know, I can't tell you the adoption, but, you know, we have about 600 plus global customers today.

[00:20:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:47] And I think if we...

[00:20:49] And I would say, you know, I've spoken and gotten feedback from majority of our customers

[00:20:55] and, you know, at least 10 plus in Europe just last two weeks.

[00:20:59] I think, you know, people, when they see this new wave of how to leverage technology,

[00:21:06] I think it's just the sparks, right?

[00:21:09] Yeah.

[00:21:09] They're like, well, all of a sudden, you know, think about this, right?

[00:21:12] Very simple.

[00:21:13] One of the favorites, consistent things that I heard last two weeks was...

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[00:21:42] Protect your organization with SISIV's continuous criminal monitoring.

[00:21:46] Because workplace safety doesn't stop after hiring.

[00:21:50] Ugh, dieser komplexe Finanzierungstalk ist ganz schön anstrengend.

[00:21:54] Ob ich mein Depot jemals angelegt kriege?

[00:21:56] Aber du hast doch schon ein Depot.

[00:21:58] Äh, nee.

[00:21:59] Doch, du hast das Vodafone Gigadepot.

[00:22:01] Ach, stimmt.

[00:22:02] Und da habe ich ja selbst in der Hand, wie groß mein Depot ist.

[00:22:05] Jetzt mit dem Vodafone Gigadepot und verbrauchtes Datenvolumen in den nächsten Monat mitnehmen.

[00:22:09] Go on im zuverlässigen 5G-Netz von Vodafone.

[00:22:12] Vodafone.

[00:22:13] Together we can.

[00:22:14] I just want to get answers to my question, right?

[00:22:20] About how many contractors do I have?

[00:22:23] What is my forecasted spend?

[00:22:26] What's the budget, right?

[00:22:28] It's just one of the top skills I'm hiring.

[00:22:31] It's just basic questions.

[00:22:33] And today, you know, regardless of which technology you use,

[00:22:37] you are dependent on your MSP in some way or form to get the answers, right?

[00:22:43] And imagine, like, if I'm on a, you know, I'm in a QBR somewhere with my boss or a board or whatever,

[00:22:51] and I need answers or something pops up.

[00:22:54] If I need instantaneous answer, right?

[00:22:57] The power of data in my fingertips to be able to effectively communicate and be dynamic about how that gets addressed.

[00:23:06] I think that's the biggest piece.

[00:23:09] Is that Maggie?

[00:23:10] Yes, that's Maggie.

[00:23:12] Yeah.

[00:23:12] So what I love about that, and Ryan and I have seen this in a couple plays just recently,

[00:23:18] is the idea of going to a tab inside software and then finding a place in analytics

[00:23:24] and then typing in some type of report or whatever this is.

[00:23:29] Menus within menus.

[00:23:30] Menus within menus within menus of – that's kind of a boomer way of thinking about analytics.

[00:23:37] Yeah.

[00:23:37] And I love the way that you're thinking of, like, I can ask Maggie.

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:42] Like you said, how many contractors do we have currently?

[00:23:45] Boom.

[00:23:45] There's an answer.

[00:23:47] And I think that's actually really exciting for people that need analytics

[00:23:52] but can't go or don't want to go through that old process to find an answer that's already outdated.

[00:24:01] Yeah.

[00:24:02] I mean, it's another challenge that, Ryan, coming back to, right, when is that going to change?

[00:24:09] I think as people see the possibility that I don't have to sit in front of a computer

[00:24:15] and need to use the system.

[00:24:17] I can use the system via voice.

[00:24:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:20] I think changes the way of how people think about technology, right?

[00:24:24] If – I mean, Alexa, right?

[00:24:26] I mean, I – toothpaste.

[00:24:28] I order toothpaste because I forget.

[00:24:29] That's the last thing I remember to order, right?

[00:24:31] It happens all the time.

[00:24:32] But I don't have to plan for it.

[00:24:35] Right.

[00:24:35] I can just sit and ask and it's going to happen or give me the answers.

[00:24:39] Right.

[00:24:39] I think that's what changes, at least in the conversations I'm having.

[00:24:43] And I think the more our customers adopt and I think we build the testimonials, right,

[00:24:50] is going to be a big way in which other vendors are going to see.

[00:24:54] I mean, they saw a glimpse of what we're launching.

[00:24:57] We've launched at CWS, as you probably know, the staffing SIA's premier event in Dallas.

[00:25:04] So that's when we launched it.

[00:25:06] But I think it's going to be the next five years, I would say, at least for people to

[00:25:12] shift, HR to come to the table, and it becomes a talent conversation for the organization, right?

[00:25:19] It's almost like the intersection of all of these and the timing of all of these, Ryan.

[00:25:23] Right.

[00:25:23] That will really help drive, you know, almost like turning the page on this fragmented industry

[00:25:33] with intermediaries all around.

[00:25:35] Right.

[00:25:36] Right.

[00:25:37] So earlier today, you were talking about this, going through the menus to grab your reports

[00:25:43] and all that.

[00:25:44] And you keep saying it's very boomer.

[00:25:47] I had to look it up because I couldn't remember the name of the generation, the silent generation.

[00:25:51] This is like beyond boomers.

[00:25:53] This is like way back.

[00:25:54] Oh, nice.

[00:25:55] This is more than antiquated, right?

[00:25:57] Like this is, I mean, we don't-

[00:25:59] It's like trying to drive people to a website.

[00:26:01] It's just dumb.

[00:26:02] Yeah, we don't.

[00:26:03] Like no more of that.

[00:26:04] And you mentioned Alexa.

[00:26:06] So the majority of our listens by a good significant amount come from Alexa.

[00:26:13] Yeah.

[00:26:13] Like specifically Alexa, like just asking, you know, people asking questions about work.

[00:26:19] Yeah.

[00:26:19] And up comes the shows.

[00:26:22] It's when we were not aware of that.

[00:26:24] No.

[00:26:24] Until we started looking.

[00:26:25] A question, I did some work 100 years ago for Fieldglass and Beeline and IQ Navinator.

[00:26:33] So one of the things that challenges back then, I mean, it was antiquated back then, but one

[00:26:39] of the issues that they all had is they had different delivery models and different costing

[00:26:44] models.

[00:26:44] Some would give the platform away for free and then take a percentage of the transactions

[00:26:49] that went through of it.

[00:26:50] But I don't remember, and this is the odd, so I don't remember anyone actually making

[00:26:55] a pure SaaS play back then.

[00:26:59] They had these like weird financial models that you dug into them, which was crazy confusing

[00:27:06] for the buyer.

[00:27:07] Like, okay, now how does this work?

[00:27:09] You know, et cetera.

[00:27:11] I'm assuming that whole thing has been cleaned up since then.

[00:27:15] I wouldn't.

[00:27:16] I mean, just like-

[00:27:17] I wouldn't assume.

[00:27:18] I wouldn't assume that.

[00:27:19] Damn it!

[00:27:21] It's part of my headwind, right?

[00:27:24] Yeah.

[00:27:24] So I think there are, I mean, other than the names that you mentioned, I mean, there

[00:27:30] have been recent small mid-market players that have come in that are starting to, you

[00:27:38] know, kind of test out the subscription model again because these are tech-only vendors and,

[00:27:46] you know, it makes sense for them, right?

[00:27:48] And that's all they do.

[00:27:50] And they just want to be a turnkey solution.

[00:27:52] So it makes perfect sense.

[00:27:55] In fact, one of, as part of the platform, we also support the ability for organizations

[00:28:02] to do white collar and blue collar.

[00:28:04] So we call it blended collar.

[00:28:05] So this is where, you know, you have, you know, organizations who are manufacturing or

[00:28:10] logistics, right?

[00:28:12] Providers where you have warehouse workers, right?

[00:28:15] Or truck drivers or hospice care workers, right?

[00:28:18] So these are all shifts or blue collar workers.

[00:28:22] And so we acquired a company called GRI, which kind of brought in that side of the technology

[00:28:28] that we have integrated.

[00:28:30] So if you're a customer and we have a couple of customers who have the need for white collar

[00:28:34] and blue collar.

[00:28:35] So we kind of have an integrated dashboard.

[00:28:37] But my point being, I think the part of what we want to get to is the ability for, you know,

[00:28:47] users to effectively, you know, consume technology, right?

[00:28:54] Where if they're saying, I don't want services, then we have the ability to give them a delivery

[00:29:00] model that they can just consume tech because they can manage what they want, right?

[00:29:05] Or there's a different vendor that can manage the technology and we are out of the business.

[00:29:09] We just license tech.

[00:29:10] But I think the supplier sourced model is the common model that still seems to prevail

[00:29:15] at this point.

[00:29:16] But we are starting to, it's definitely one of the areas that we are working with the

[00:29:21] analysts in the industry to, you know, really help us kind of move in that direction.

[00:29:28] And I think 25 would be where we will be rolling out that option and really working with some,

[00:29:35] you know, to push that model.

[00:29:38] But, you know, again, this is another one, which is a really heavy push because of the

[00:29:43] way the industry has been.

[00:29:45] It's quite a shock for you coming from SaaS into this.

[00:29:50] What in the hell?

[00:29:52] So the, the, the, in the kind of, it's a good, good segue.

[00:29:55] It's a, two questions I have.

[00:29:57] One is I want to get into the buying questions.

[00:29:59] We always like to go down buying questions and what people need to really, truly understand

[00:30:03] is there is a, cause for whatever reason, they may not have a solution, right?

[00:30:08] Like this.

[00:30:09] But before we do that, since William, since you mentioned coming in from SaaS, how crazy

[00:30:15] does it feel to you?

[00:30:17] Because we love when people come into HR tech, you know, first couple of years.

[00:30:21] How crazy is it to you for the job that you need to do it?

[00:30:25] How different is it?

[00:30:26] Is it really that different?

[00:30:27] Like your messaging, your positioning, how you're talking to customers?

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:33] I mean, it is.

[00:30:33] I mean, I think it's a, you know, a change management internally and externally.

[00:30:41] Right.

[00:30:41] Right.

[00:30:41] Because when you have companies that have evolved from being a services company and then wrapped,

[00:30:47] you know, sort of these scripts and tools around it, it's not tech, right?

[00:30:52] Let's just be honest.

[00:30:53] Right.

[00:30:53] It's just, I don't know, a Band-Aid solution that has been, you know, created.

[00:30:58] Frankenstein.

[00:30:59] Yeah.

[00:30:59] Yeah.

[00:31:00] But I think the, so it is a very heavy lift, you know, organizational effort because it's

[00:31:09] not just me that's the spokesperson for the company.

[00:31:12] Right.

[00:31:12] So it's about enablement.

[00:31:14] It's about training.

[00:31:15] And, you know, fortunately for me, I own marketing as well.

[00:31:18] So it's really sort of turning on the product marketing engine to really work on the messaging,

[00:31:25] positioning.

[00:31:26] And then even, you know, ensuring that we have the right buyers at the table.

[00:31:31] Right.

[00:31:31] Right.

[00:31:32] Like when we, when we have talking about Maggie, right?

[00:31:36] Procurement alone is not going to make the cut.

[00:31:38] Right.

[00:31:38] No.

[00:31:38] We love procurement.

[00:31:40] But, you know, we need.

[00:31:41] It ends up in procurement.

[00:31:43] That's right.

[00:31:43] That's right.

[00:31:44] When they cut the check, you like procurement.

[00:31:46] Yes.

[00:31:47] Well, they'll, they'll haggle with price, but really you're selling it a CHRO, global head

[00:31:53] of talent acquisition.

[00:31:54] Right.

[00:31:54] Maybe even a CFO and you're selling to them once they get it.

[00:31:59] You want the IT at the table because, you know, at the end of the day, this is another

[00:32:03] piece of technology that goes into the landscape of what they use, what they integrate with the

[00:32:08] InfoSec security, all the things.

[00:32:10] So I think it's like training at that level, right?

[00:32:13] At the buyer level, about the messaging level.

[00:32:16] And then also equipping our, you know, in addition to sales, our services team to know

[00:32:22] how they engage because day to day on a, you know, whoever is the CSC at the client side,

[00:32:28] being able to effectively communicate the same language.

[00:32:31] Right.

[00:32:32] To be honest, I don't even know why it's called a VMS.

[00:32:36] Yeah.

[00:32:36] Me neither.

[00:32:37] It's like, why is it?

[00:32:39] Nobody's able to answer the question.

[00:32:41] To me, it's a platform that enables a holistic, comprehensive view of how talent can be provided,

[00:32:49] like the right match of talent to opportunity.

[00:32:52] Right.

[00:32:52] And it's another lever for companies to think about overall talent strategy.

[00:32:56] That's how I think about it.

[00:32:57] That's how I think about it.

[00:32:59] Just in time, what we learned in manufacturing years ago.

[00:33:02] Just in time manufacturing.

[00:33:04] It's just in time talent.

[00:33:05] Yeah.

[00:33:06] So it's looking at it.

[00:33:07] I've never understood why they call it VMS.

[00:33:10] And I've studied it for 20-something years.

[00:33:13] I've still.

[00:33:13] So it's like, why do they call it a contracting system?

[00:33:15] We just talked about this today.

[00:33:17] Same thing.

[00:33:18] It's just.

[00:33:18] Well, it's a 60-year-old category that.

[00:33:20] Exactly.

[00:33:22] Hasn't changed.

[00:33:22] It has changed, actually.

[00:33:24] Absolutely.

[00:33:25] But it's.

[00:33:27] Who owns CS?

[00:33:29] So you own product and marketing.

[00:33:33] Who is CS?

[00:33:34] There is a peer of mine who owns the customer service or client service and delivery function.

[00:33:41] Yeah.

[00:33:42] But y'all are always talking.

[00:33:43] Oh, yeah.

[00:33:44] You're like connected to the head.

[00:33:45] Because, you know, because there's been, we have, I mean, wasn't there another good thought, you know, sign for evolution, Ryan, back to your initial question was, we are starting to see, you know, the need for product QBRs and service QBRs.

[00:34:04] Right.

[00:34:04] So people are slowly starting to see, okay, technology is more important.

[00:34:08] Also, it's not just one.

[00:34:11] Where product or technology gets like 10 minutes, you know, on a conversation, it doesn't do justice, right?

[00:34:17] Because you don't get any time to say, how do I get value out of this thing?

[00:34:21] Right.

[00:34:21] Because in some way, shape or form, the customer is paying for it, even though it's called supplier source.

[00:34:26] Right.

[00:34:27] Right.

[00:34:27] They are paying for it.

[00:34:29] So let's be, you know, honest.

[00:34:30] Yeah.

[00:34:30] So I think it's some good signs for sure.

[00:34:32] Yeah.

[00:34:33] So a question about Maggie.

[00:34:35] So Maggie does, she gets into everything, right?

[00:34:38] Reporting, et cetera.

[00:34:40] Right.

[00:34:41] Does Maggie at some point get to a spot where maybe the QBR almost can go away, where it's interacting with the client, allowing them to truly see everything that they just wouldn't be able to put together?

[00:34:55] Or even your people may not be able to put together from a human, you know, thought process.

[00:35:00] And Maggie kind of marries that together and then helps both organizations scale up a little more and get better.

[00:35:08] Yeah.

[00:35:08] I mean, look, I think the possibilities of, you know, being able to plan, leveraging Maggie for people to plan or expand programs in new countries would be fantastic.

[00:35:23] Right.

[00:35:23] And it kind of, to me, I think about those futuristic use cases where, you know, Maggie's able to do all of that without actually having to have virtual or in-person conversations.

[00:35:36] It's a Maggie to program team to the client's conversation all happening, like together.

[00:35:42] Right.

[00:35:43] So I think it's possible, but it's also going to depend on adoption and then, you know, the training of Maggie.

[00:35:51] Right.

[00:35:51] Right.

[00:35:51] Because as we all know, AI requires, you know, more training.

[00:35:55] So the more Maggie gets to know you or me or the client, I think that's going to help drive better opportunities to increase sort of the level of engagement of Maggie within the organization and the program.

[00:36:09] Yeah.

[00:36:09] I know that was probably an unfair futuristic question.

[00:36:13] Yeah.

[00:36:13] Anything is not going to be technology.

[00:36:15] It's all possible.

[00:36:16] Yeah.

[00:36:17] When I, when I, when I start digging, I'm like, well, it could do this.

[00:36:20] And what about this?

[00:36:22] Just because it can't, should it?

[00:36:25] Tell us a little bit about your kind of your perfect customer.

[00:36:28] Because you've talked about global.

[00:36:31] Ryan and I like to get into the, like, are you industry?

[00:36:34] Is there certain industries that you love, et cetera, and size of company, et cetera?

[00:36:39] Just kind of, kind of walk the audience through what makes a good prospect for you.

[00:36:45] Yeah.

[00:36:45] I mean, majority of our customers are Fortune 500 companies.

[00:36:48] So pretty enterprise size.

[00:36:51] But, you know, as I, you know, as I mentioned, our recent, you know, our acquisition in that process, we have, you know, inherited businesses and companies or logos across Europe, you know, including UK, UKI, UK Ireland.

[00:37:08] We have some new business we acquired in Netherlands, right?

[00:37:11] So there's a combo of mid-markets also in that mix.

[00:37:16] But, you know, I think industry-wise, we were, you know, we are very heavy with tech companies.

[00:37:24] So, you know, some of the big names are our companies and we help them, help them with their programs.

[00:37:30] And then, you know, finance, insurance, automotive.

[00:37:35] We have a, you know, we have a pretty big chunk of our business that's focused on healthcare as well in the U.S.

[00:37:43] And we go, we have a separate name for it.

[00:37:46] It's called Right Sourcing by Magnets, if people don't know.

[00:37:49] But it's sort of like a separate brand because of the nature of how we evolved.

[00:37:56] And that's a very well-known brand in the healthcare market.

[00:38:00] So we kind of kept it, but, you know, but it's Magnets brand.

[00:38:05] So we, you know, we kind of go across and, you know, with the GRI, we call it the shift solution, right, for blue-collar workers and shift capabilities.

[00:38:15] We do have a lot of logistics, fair housing, manufacturing customers that, you know, that we work with.

[00:38:22] So it's a pretty wide spectrum of industries that we support.

[00:38:27] That's fantastic.

[00:38:28] So the audience is always interested in, like, the connectivity of the technology.

[00:38:34] So what does it need to be, what does Magnet need to be connected to or what do you find in your clients?

[00:38:41] Where does it touch?

[00:38:43] What else does it touch?

[00:38:44] Yeah, I mean, it's usually, you know, standard systems like ERP, right, HRIS are probably the big ones.

[00:38:54] You know, there's other one-offs, you know, tools that companies have at times that, like, for instance, a lot of our customers now ask for APIs to consume reporting or analytics information because within their organization,

[00:39:10] they want to have a comprehensive, you know, they want to have a comprehensive, you know, report.

[00:39:14] So they pull, you know, pull data to integrate into their whatever reporting tool of choice, right, to help build power, but whatever.

[00:39:21] You can think of any.

[00:39:23] So there's, like, you know, one-off aspects of that.

[00:39:26] A lot of customers use ServiceNow, for instance.

[00:39:29] So that's something to integrate into their workflows, depending on how they're consuming the contingent approval onboarding process.

[00:39:38] So those are probably the big items.

[00:39:41] But, yeah, it always includes integration of, you know, transactional data, operational data, you know, whether it's invoicing, time cards, you know, all of that stuff.

[00:39:54] And worker data, obviously, that goes in.

[00:39:57] That's a synchronous communication or asynchronous, depending on how the feeds or APIs interact.

[00:40:05] So final question on my side is, I mentioned it previously, buying questions.

[00:40:10] What does, what would you want to hear a prospect ask you?

[00:40:16] What is the questions they need to, hey, two or three?

[00:40:18] If you can script it.

[00:40:20] Three or four, whatever one question, what would you love to hear from them?

[00:40:24] Or maybe we change it up this time.

[00:40:25] Maybe, what are the three or four questions that if they ask you, you know that they're serious?

[00:40:31] Yeah.

[00:40:32] Oh, that's good.

[00:40:34] Hey, it's Bob Pulver, host of you podcast.

[00:40:37] Human-centric AI, AI-driven transformation, hiring for skills and potential, dynamic workforce ecosystems, responsible innovation.

[00:40:46] These are some of the themes my expert guests and I chat about, and we certainly geek out on the details.

[00:40:51] Nothing too technical.

[00:40:52] I hope you check it out.

[00:40:54] Yeah.

[00:40:55] I think, I don't know if I have three or four, but I will draw in a couple that I think are.

[00:41:02] We can keep changing the answer to questions.

[00:41:05] Oh, yeah.

[00:41:05] Don't change the questions on YouTube.

[00:41:07] Oh, yeah.

[00:41:08] So, I think one of the intriguing ways for me to have a very healthy conversation and sort of bring them into the fold has been around when customers, one, when HR is involved and it's a talent conversation.

[00:41:26] Right.

[00:41:26] Right.

[00:41:26] So, to me, really having customers talk about, you know, how can you help me, you know, get the right talent?

[00:41:37] How can you help my brand, leverage my brand?

[00:41:40] Right.

[00:41:40] That's when you know that they are interested in a broader talent conversation.

[00:41:44] They're going to have the right people at the table and we can really help them put the puzzle pieces together.

[00:41:51] Right.

[00:41:52] And bring our partners into the picture if, you know, we have partners in some cases.

[00:41:57] So, I think that's a very good conversation because then we can actually have a healthy conversation about what they have, you know, baseline it and then really help them how Magnet can help you further accelerate it or fix it or whatever the situation may be.

[00:42:12] The second part is really around, I think the second most, you know, aspect of it is, you know, when they talk about technology.

[00:42:23] I think that's when you know that they know to leverage and, you know, be optimized about what they want to deliver for the organization.

[00:42:32] And, you know, there have been instances where it is like they come to us only for tech.

[00:42:38] So, tech-only conversations, right?

[00:42:40] Right.

[00:42:40] So, those are very good conversations because then they know that it's a focused conversation.

[00:42:47] Yeah.

[00:42:47] They're in it for the technology.

[00:42:48] They know they can get data.

[00:42:49] They can get, you know, all the coolness of what they've seen.

[00:42:53] And they really want to optimize their existing program with technology.

[00:42:57] So, I think those are probably the most big ones.

[00:43:02] And there's like the third one I would add is, you know, we do have a pretty significant data ocean.

[00:43:07] So, which we, you know, it's a system of records that's on top of.

[00:43:11] So, we do have, you know, PA and talent intelligence, location intelligence, which is sort of an a la carte service that's available to people.

[00:43:20] A lot of suppliers come to us around that.

[00:43:22] But it's not the biggest conversation.

[00:43:24] The former two are probably the big ones that can really be a very healthy and forward-moving conversation for us.

[00:43:32] So, one more question.

[00:43:33] I lied.

[00:43:34] I didn't wait.

[00:43:35] I'll let you take it from there.

[00:43:37] Do any, because I don't think we've talked about this.

[00:43:40] Do any prospects ever come to you in that conversation and focus on candidate experience at all?

[00:43:47] Or is it solely on the company side and streamlining and making their process better?

[00:43:53] I don't think they lead with that, you know, for sure.

[00:43:57] Because I think if it is probably there somewhere, it gets up, get to that place through how we talk about candidate experience and, you know, hiring manager experience and supplier experience.

[00:44:11] So, that's part of our, how we deliver the message.

[00:44:13] But it's, it's not, it has not been the leading point of the conversation.

[00:44:21] D and I has been, you know, something that people do bring up.

[00:44:28] They're looking for different talent pools.

[00:44:30] And, again, if they're thinking of it as a talent portfolio, like a financial portfolio, then they're thinking about talent in different ways.

[00:44:38] And if you're trying to slice and dice that and get specific talent, you've, I could see that.

[00:44:45] I could see the conversations getting there pretty quickly.

[00:44:49] Real quick, the two things really, for me, finally, is you're displacing something, especially at the enterprise.

[00:44:59] They have something, whether or not it's proprietary or Post-it Notes or Excel or another solution.

[00:45:05] What's that like in terms of the questions that they ask and also the things that, you know, that you're going to, you're going to, you're going to face if they're ripping something else out and they're putting you in.

[00:45:19] They're getting a better solution.

[00:45:20] Check.

[00:45:20] Got it.

[00:45:21] But we all know adoption is horrible.

[00:45:25] So, like, how do we, how do we get them to use a better technology is a question.

[00:45:30] So, really, it's a displacement question.

[00:45:33] It's, how do you deal with displacement?

[00:45:36] Yeah, it's a really good question.

[00:45:37] And, you know, one of the names you mentioned, I'm not going to mention names, but it has, we all know, right, some of these ERP companies have been around for a long time and they get through their way, right?

[00:45:52] It's like, I bought this, so I'm going to get this too, right?

[00:45:55] Right, right.

[00:45:56] So, you kind of go into these organizations and, you know, some of them have these tools like 20, 30 years and they've customized, it's fascinating for me.

[00:46:08] They've customized every single button on this form, right?

[00:46:12] I'm like, how much time are you spending thinking about this and thinking about localization of all this stuff?

[00:46:19] Oh, yeah.

[00:46:19] I mean, it's custom software by now.

[00:46:23] At that point, it's unrecognizable to, like, what they normally sell.

[00:46:29] I think part of that's also a false perception of accomplishment when a company overcompensates for customization to that level.

[00:46:39] Adding process.

[00:46:40] Yeah, I almost feel like it's, hey, we know we're deficient in some area.

[00:46:44] Let's do this and look how beautiful it is.

[00:46:47] I was telling somebody the other day, my cousin runs, so for one of the large ERP, he runs the aerospace division, and one of the larger aerospace companies, they pay almost $80 million a year and just change orders.

[00:47:06] And he's told me, he's like, it's custom software.

[00:47:10] Like, what we normally have and what they have, the two aren't even alike.

[00:47:16] They're not even close to one another.

[00:47:18] And so I could see people that being a change issue if they've got the buttons colored the right way and things like that.

[00:47:25] But from a displacement standpoint, that's the conversation that's the hardest, right?

[00:47:30] Yeah.

[00:47:30] It's when you have that much, you know, penetration and people sometimes forget, yeah, the software maybe didn't sound as expensive, but the amount of customizations and the SOWs you've opened to get this done, it could be, right?

[00:47:47] Seven, eight, eight figure number, right?

[00:47:49] Oh, yeah.

[00:47:49] And I think back to what I said earlier, that's the conversation I have, the conversation, the statement is, you shouldn't have to customize a system to this extent.

[00:48:01] The system needs to train to you, right?

[00:48:03] So I think that is the real trigger to make people think and, you know, certainly people want to, but I think it's that the adoption within the organization or, you know, or even the process that people get sort of accustomed to for 30 years.

[00:48:24] I mean, think about some of these, right?

[00:48:26] I mean, people are not going to change, right?

[00:48:28] Yeah, yeah.

[00:48:28] It's not just getting the, you know, the decision makers on board.

[00:48:32] I think sometimes when you have all of these desperate, you know, disparate organizations and people coming in, people worry about change management and adoption of such a big decision on how it's going to impact their people, right?

[00:48:47] And what is it going to disrupt?

[00:48:49] Right.

[00:48:50] You know, and what is it going to cost the business?

[00:48:52] So I think those are probably the hardest and, you know, conversations that I've had to say, make the leap.

[00:49:02] Yeah.

[00:49:03] We have to make a better choice.

[00:49:05] They see eloquence.

[00:49:06] They see that this is a better application, better use of their time, better use of capital.

[00:49:11] And then all of a sudden now they've got to recognize, but everyone knows how to use this other system.

[00:49:18] How the hell are we going to get them to use it?

[00:49:20] Yeah.

[00:49:20] Which last question for me is, how do you do your implementations?

[00:49:25] How do you stand it up?

[00:49:26] Do you have consulting firms that help you with that or do you all do it yourself?

[00:49:29] We have an internal implementations team that, you know, we go through a whole project management approach, right?

[00:49:37] Yeah, yeah.

[00:49:37] To kick off the discovery to, you know, providing a best practice solution.

[00:49:42] So it's, you know, because we have customers across the right variety of industries so we can at least lead with best practices and then try to minimize the number of customizations because nobody wants to, you know, support one-off from a product perspective.

[00:49:57] No more think about, okay, anytime something new happens, all of a sudden you don't get it because you've customized it and it's not relevant to you anymore.

[00:50:05] So it's, you know, so it's having those conversations with the customer.

[00:50:10] But yeah, that's, so we do have a team that does that.

[00:50:14] Awesome.

[00:50:15] Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:50:18] This has been absolutely wonderful.

[00:50:20] Thank you for your time.