Navigating Skill Verification and Talent Flexibility: Insights from Ben Huffman, CEO of Contra

[00:00:00] and it was not long. You didn't get picked for the dance. Yeah, I didn't get picked. I'm like, you know what? It's too much too much effort. Probably not. I'm probably doing it wrong. There's probably something I need to do. And but the fact that I now that you now have to pay to apply for jobs.

[00:00:19] Preventing me from going further and trying more because I'm just wasting dollars trying to compete with people that I know I'm not going to come down to that salary.

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[00:01:10] Hey, this is William Taddecke from Ryan Larry. You're listening to the Use Case Podcast. Ben's with us today. Ben, would you do us favor and introduce yourself?

[00:01:18] Hey, William. Hey, Ryan. Thanks for having me. My name is Ben Huffman. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Contra. Contra.com.

[00:01:25] All right, Contra.com. I haven't looked at the website. I have no idea what it does.

[00:01:33] I have. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty cool. These two little guys, they run around the screen and they jump up mountains and they shoot people.

[00:01:41] You remember that game that was on like the old phones? It was Snake.

[00:01:45] We're not talking about Contra. Contra. No. All right. So, Ben, you got to take us into it. What does Contra do? What problem do you solve?

[00:01:56] Yeah, so Contra is a professional platform for skills. So if you think about LinkedIn or Fiverr or Upwork, we're complementary to a lot of these platforms.

[00:02:06] But you know how on LinkedIn, you post the roles that you've had at previous companies? That's something that has been kind of the standard for the world of work for the last who knows how long.

[00:02:20] On Contra, we're rethinking this. So we saw that there was a fundamental change in the way we all work. And today, employers are looking for skills.

[00:02:29] They're not looking for where have you been? What have you done in the past? They're looking for, hey, what can you do in the future and what are your skills?

[00:02:37] And so if you think about Contra, we're a platform for independent professionals to showcase their skills and to get connected with clients and companies from around the world.

[00:02:46] How are they? So, all right. So I like this. I like what I'm hearing here. And I'm relating this to conversations I've had recently about my kids in school about their go ones in high school, but the middle one going in the high school is I want her to consider

[00:03:08] Tech School, the Tech School of the high school, because they focus on different skill sets and things that she likes like graphic design and painting and yeah all of that stuff.

[00:03:18] But there's this stigma around going to the tech school like it's for the stupid kids or something to that effect. So it's interesting how he's out of a thing. I'm thinking I should have went to the Tech School.

[00:03:31] Yeah, yeah, I would have probably have started much quicker in life. Anyhow, so when you say skills, companies are looking for skills. Let's talk about that because

[00:03:44] Yeah, professional skills and things like that. What are you seeing your clients looking at? What are they looking for? What are those skills and how are they leveraging Contra for that?

[00:03:56] Totally. So it's really interesting to hear that there's kind of a stigma around technology education for kids these days. It all seems like it would be the opposite but

[00:04:07] 100% percent. Well, if it's not in the regular school, right? It's in a separate building for this. But I feel like that's where education is headed anyhow.

[00:04:16] Yeah. Different story, different conversation.

[00:04:18] Yeah, I have a funny story to kind of go on that tangent. But before I'll just answer your question around what are clients looking for? So whether it's

[00:04:27] you know video editing or software engineering or graphic design or product design or you know growth marketing paid paid marketing things like that. You know, employers are now thinking about

[00:04:40] thinking about their workers from a perspective of like, Hey, what skills do you have? Like what if you're an engineer? Like what languages do you know?

[00:04:49] If you're a product designer, what tools do you use? And then like what are the things that you've done in the past and how can you showcase that?

[00:04:56] And so we're moving from this world where it was like, Hey, I did this amount of time at this company. Now I'm doing this amount of time at this next company to, Hey, I had performed this

[00:05:09] like this project at this last company. I use these skills and like this was the outcome. And the way that people are showcasing their identity is changing the way

[00:05:17] we think about hiring thinking about changing the way we think about actually finding our next job, thinking about the way that we actually showcase our professional identity. So all of this is changing and

[00:05:30] Contra is kind of the forefront of all of this.

[00:05:32] So my questions around like, I think of skills personally like with a half life, like skills that I had 30 years ago versus the skills that I have today. Right. And how do you verify life? I'm self reporting my skills.

[00:05:49] I'm probably thinking of the much of the wrong stuff right. Like, for instance, probably 15 years ago or so I ran an ad agency for a decade.

[00:06:05] If someone, if I were to put that skill management leadership of an ad agency on, you know, on Contra, it would be, it would be fraud on some level, because I did it. But I've been away from for 15 life so it's like we don't talk about skills decay, or like the skills that are additive and verifying

[00:06:29] because I think of it three dimensionally like there's, there's a breath and a depth and a width and all that stuff to a skill. And then there's a half life to it, whether or not it's being reinvested in or whatever and then there's a tangential skills.

[00:06:44] So if like running an ad agency was a skill, okay, but probably not let's say there was then next to that would be running a professional services firm. Yeah. Okay.

[00:06:54] So there's these tangential skills as well. So just give us y'all because you started this for a reason. And it's, we love skills by the way about for an hour or four bars or buyers of skills. So, but you've you've you've you've wrestled with these ideas probably much more than we have.

[00:07:12] So go into it.

[00:07:14] Yeah, it's interesting. So there's probably a lot of your past experience and your past skills that are still relevant today. Like I think definitely running a services business, running thinking about advertising there's some skills and add an advertising that are timeless, but the mediums that you're actually deploying ads on probably change.

[00:07:32] And so on Contra, you showcase your skills via projects that you've done via case studies. And so, for example, when I first got started in my career in technology, I was actually an audio engineer. So I would produce music for small labels and Sony.

[00:07:48] And so, you know, now, instead of like putting, you know, those projects on my profile and Contra, I actually put my latest work. So I also produce all the music for our launch videos. And so I will actually create detailed case studies, talk about the tools I use, talk about the skills that I apply to this project and it can show my most recent work.

[00:08:10] So there is like, you know, a recency that's very important with skills and like, you know, some skills do ultimately, you know, like you can think about some programming languages that are no longer relevant.

[00:08:22] But I bet you there's probably a lot of skills that you have from running your ad agency that are still very relevant that you could still, you know, put on your Contra profile today. But that only depends if you're in the market for if you're looking for someone to work with that could make sense.

[00:08:35] But I feel like you're probably on the employer side at this point.

[00:08:38] At this point, yeah, the verification of those things. So you just you just told us about putting some of your most recent projects on there. That's still self reported, right? Yeah, there's no third party verification or someone that can.

[00:08:53] I mean, was it was that big about resumes run everybody lies on their resume, like on some level or another.

[00:08:59] It's like, I don't but yeah, most people do.

[00:09:05] I don't know if it's nuancey.

[00:09:08] It's nuancey right you put you were you put lead led 150% sales growth brain FY 23.

[00:09:21] Well, you were on a team of people where you were with a team of people that did that. But it's reported as something that you did.

[00:09:29] So I would assume that most people look at it and they say that and they don't think about it like we did it as a team.

[00:09:36] So I don't know if that's a lie or not.

[00:09:39] It seems it seems seems close.

[00:09:42] But but but but you're the you're the you're the expert here. How does how do people know that they actually really have that skill that they say they do?

[00:09:53] Yes, so there's there's a couple of factors that kind of go into your reputation on Contra. So part of it is yourself reported skills and you know there could be skills inflation the same way there was resume inflation.

[00:10:05] So steal that.

[00:10:08] Mark that.

[00:10:11] Oh my God.

[00:10:13] Resume inflation.

[00:10:15] That's a shirt.

[00:10:17] Resume inflation.

[00:10:19] Power by wordifying.

[00:10:22] You know, that's very real.

[00:10:24] Yeah, you know, that's been something that people have been doing for forever. Right. As you mentioned, but on Contra there's also another variable which is your actual paid profit.

[00:10:35] So you know, that's the way that you're going to get your project history. And so on Contra you can get hired by clients and work with clients.

[00:10:44] And there's data behind that paid project in the outcome of that project. So let's just say you get hired for a skill.

[00:10:50] We also have that that project history so we know that how much have you earned for that skill and then what was the outcome like was it positive?

[00:11:00] Was it negative? And so there's a couple different ways you can translate.

[00:11:03] Exactly. Yeah. So you could say that like, hey, I'm the biggest expert at this skill. It might not be true. But if you don't have any client work to back that up then you probably won't have a lot of credibility there.

[00:11:18] So as an employer, sorry to cut you off but I will.

[00:11:22] So as an employer, can I then search and say I need to find a skill set A who has generated X amount of revenue with X amount of rating for that specific skill and that I can then dig deeper from there.

[00:11:40] Probably skills and ratings.

[00:11:42] Yeah. Definitely skills, ratings and then you can see how much someone has earned on the platform.

[00:11:48] Oh yeah.

[00:11:49] And should give you a good idea and you can also read recommendations. There's also the qualitative side of it as well. Right. So like the recommendations from other clients like that also helps you kind of understand, you know, how good someone is.

[00:12:03] But what's really interesting about this kind of movement is that, you know, more people want flexibility with their work, whether they have a full time job or not they want flexibility they want to be able to earn income, whether it's on demand or, you know, if they need extra income or they just want to go independent fully.

[00:12:23] And then more employers need access to more skills. If you even think about just like the use case podcast, you might need a video editor.

[00:12:31] If like one of your video editors is out or maybe you want someone who makes clips for tick tock or someone who makes clips for YouTube shorts. Right. And like those are probably not skills that you're going to hire full time they might be.

[00:12:45] You might find someone who can do everything but there might just be like one off use cases around certain campaigns and marketing. And I know ad agencies have always worked this way. You've always had like, you know, set groups of experts that you worked with on an as needed basis but this is where the world is going and especially now with

[00:13:03] AI taking over the world of work. We're seeing more and more and more and more people default to contract as like the primary way of collaborating and so

[00:13:12] And that's on both sides. The talent wants to work that way. Yeah. And the employers want to work that way. Yeah. So resume inflation. I gotta go back to that for a second.

[00:13:23] The first resume. Anybody have an idea of the first resume?

[00:13:29] I feel like it's got to be BC maybe back way back then. Da Vinci.

[00:13:35] Now, it would be interesting to go back and look at his resume and see if there's any inflation in there. My gut tells me he probably didn't have to inflate anything.

[00:13:47] However, it'd be interesting to see. So Ryan's had some recent upwork experience or five years which fucking awful.

[00:13:58] Let me just tell you. He didn't get picked. So the funniest thing is he put his stuff out there and he has really good skills in certain areas.

[00:14:12] And so like, he thought, you know, I'll just put up my deal and I go here and I'll start getting some deal flow and you know, and I'll start building up my ratings and revenue and all that stuff. No one picked him.

[00:14:22] Nothing. Nothing. I'm competing again, even when and I don't know that Contra runs its way but with upwork they'll put it out there, you know, 100, 125 bucks an hour for the right skillset.

[00:14:34] So on the surface, it looks good. They wind up when you when you don't get the job, you go back and you look at it. They're paying 10 and 15 bucks an hour.

[00:14:42] Wow. It's like, it's insane. Yeah. And so I could just be up or feeling like, okay, states those salaries in the states can't compete with the external talent, you know, talent from outside of the states just not gonna work.

[00:14:58] Right. Yeah, I think it depends on the different skillset and the use case because for some like, for some skills, it can feel like a race to the bottom on sites like Upwork or Fiverr.

[00:15:14] Yeah, low.

[00:15:16] Yeah, I've heard Fiverr might be a bigger offender only because their branding is like Fiverr and it's kind of the idea that it's like $5. I've heard mixed reviews on Upwork. I know it's like, I was a huge fan of Elant and Odesk, which ultimately encouraged you to Upwork.

[00:15:34] That's actually how I got into this world in the first place. And so I've kind of seen the evolution here and yeah, the world is going global. It's kind of crazy to think about.

[00:15:44] Like there's probably use guru.com back then too, right?

[00:15:48] I never used I never got to use you. But I was like Odesk and Elant seem to be like the two that I was on. I didn't even know that they were going to eventually merge but I was like kind of using both of them.

[00:15:59] Right.

[00:16:00] But it's tough. You have to develop your reputation as an independent event and then on Upwork, I guess Ryan how long did you try? Like was it your first time ever going on Upwork?

[00:16:11] Yeah, we've hired there forever. So I'm like, I can do some of this. Let's try this out. Let's have fun and I'll tell you he was a race for the bottom. And it was not long.

[00:16:24] You didn't get picked for the dance.

[00:16:26] Yeah, I didn't get picked. I'm like, you know what? It's too much too much effort. Probably not. I'm probably doing it wrong. There's probably something I need to do and but the fact that I now that you now have to pay to apply for jobs.

[00:16:40] Preventing me from going further and trying more because I'm just wasting dollars trying to compete with people that I know I'm not going to come down to that salary. I want to do it as a side hustle as fun because I enjoy doing things.

[00:16:56] You're like, well let's go try it but I'm not going to do it a five bucks an hour.

[00:17:00] Yeah.

[00:17:01] Can't do it.

[00:17:02] And how does how does Contra? How do you work with employers? Like what's your because it's a platform play. And so you've got buyers and sellers. Yeah, and but it's around skills which is fantastic. All of it makes sense to me.

[00:17:16] But the employers that need to hire the talent or those skills I guess we should probably just say that they need those skills for something. How do you how do you work with them? Which the B2B play?

[00:17:28] Yeah, so if you think back to when you were running your ad agency, you probably had a network of contractors and freelancers that you could tap into for any given project. So on the employer side we built a tool that allows companies to manage their network of flexible talent of like independence and contractors

[00:17:49] and so let's just say that you have an engineer that you love to work with. But you may, you might need to work with this person maybe three to six months out of the year. You can actually run that relationship on Contra it's completely commission free.

[00:18:03] So we don't take a cut of the earnings on either side and you pay a flat monthly fee to run your network. And so we integrate with things like QuickBooks, Zero NetSuite. We help you basically manage your contractor and freelancer workflows and really ultimately manage that network.

[00:18:24] And so we're seeing a lot more companies and really agencies to kind of create these dynamic talent layers that they can scale up and scale down on an as needed basis. And I think the perfect use case would actually be like the use case podcast.

[00:18:40] Like you probably have like variable needs for video editors, for audio editors, maybe for graphic designers, maybe for engineers, there's people who do marketing and you can build that network on Contra it's private to your organization.

[00:18:56] Right. And then we have globally compliant contracts, global payments on everything you need to actually work with this group of people.

[00:19:04] And we just make it really, really easy. And so like that's how we that's how we kind of work with businesses today.

[00:19:10] And so as a researcher and an advisor, I like I like the revenue model because it's MRRAR as opposed to the burstable stuff where I get 1% of whatever the bid is to get some some of its two sided some of it's just one sided.

[00:19:27] But that goes up and down. And so it's hard to then kind of actually build the business over time, because it's not SAS revenue.

[00:19:35] So I actually I love that. Have you had any trouble selling that into companies like getting them to understand it's better to have this, you know, a monthly fee, like, you know, whatever the fee is, I'd have no idea what it is.

[00:19:48] Have them have the monthly fee rather than doing the burstable stuff because we'll make more money, which ultimately you're in your best interest.

[00:19:56] Yeah, so right now the pricing is either $199 a month for like a smaller team of up to four people. You can share your workspace with four people or if you want like unlimited and you want financial integrations it's 499 a month.

[00:20:09] So it's pretty affordable, like people tend to think that this is it's very valuable and then yeah the alternatives are typically, hey, like you know pay 10 to 15% of your spend, which can really balloon like crazy.

[00:20:22] And so we try to align the incentives with the platform to be more of like a workforce management tool than kind of a traditional GMV take rate model that you know eBay and then Elanth and Odes can now up work.

[00:20:36] They all kind of use this kind of commission take rate model which does make sense if you're trying to maximize revenue but we're trying to maximize the longevity of the network.

[00:20:44] And so we think that the SAS model makes lots sense since and then over time we're going to introduce newer newer products that could potentially create more value for that network that you're hiring.

[00:20:56] Right. What are the what size company is using contrary currently.

[00:21:02] Yeah, so we work with startups. We work with creative agencies. We work with growth stage technology companies. It really varies all the way up to like we have people who have tried out our marketplace on the enterprise side.

[00:21:17] But I'd say our sweet spot right now would really be creative agencies that are around 50 people startups between 50 and 150 people tend to be the users who have the biggest use case for Contra today.

[00:21:32] But we're also seeing early stage startups start to use us a lot more like you can think about pre seed all the way to series a companies are starting to rethink the way they're they're hiring they're rethinking the way that they're actually building out their teams.

[00:21:44] People are being forced to re think it because the talent doesn't want to go into an office. So some of this is since COVID right. It's some some talent does. So first of all we'll paint the whole world one brush.

[00:22:00] But some of it doesn't so there it's not just their philanthropic kind of desire to do something different for the town. It's the talents like now we're going to do this project I'm going to be in Serbia.

[00:22:13] And that just is what it is. We'll never I'll never come into an office. You don't need me to come into office. But the question that I know that both of us have probably the audience has as well is what's the line of professional skills.

[00:22:30] So where do y'all what's the demarcation of things that you have in Contra versus things are like there's a better platform for that somewhere else etc.

[00:22:40] Yeah so we've seen some crazy jobs come through the platform like I think one time someone someone was looking for a medical illustrator and funny enough there was like someone who did medical illustration that's probably not our sweet spot.

[00:22:54] We're mostly design marketing engineering audio video focused and so anything that has kind of the creative side the product development side. That's where Contra really really shines and so you know funny enough there are

[00:23:12] there are accountants there are lawyers on Contra but like that's not our specialty. I think if you're looking for an accountant unless you're trying to truly offshore and find someone in another market you're probably better off going to like a marketplace that really specializes in accounting

[00:23:26] but anything for like product development marketing like I said design engineering social media that seems to be people find a lot of success on Contra looking for those roles.

[00:23:36] Right so Ben who would you say you're competing against out there is this something I'm going to forget these names marketer is it what's that one out there marketer or marketer hire marketer hire something like are you are you are you competing against people like these or their specifics in town acquisition and recruitment that you're that you're going up against it you're seeing in deals.

[00:24:06] I definitely say we're competing against like the up works in the fibers of the world are also competing against like the traditional staffing companies that like larger enterprises have used for for the year you know throughout the like forever right like the massive companies like I don't know like the

[00:24:22] I don't know like the Deco there's a couple other ones that are that are pretty big. I think marketer hire is like a vertical marketplace they only focus on marketers specifically I've actually heard really good things about their product but once again they're more of a staffing model where I think there is like a take rate there's a commission fee.

[00:24:40] I know we I'd say like there's also another another side of it where like there's like payroll service providers people who like well like the gustos of the world.

[00:24:51] The remote comms of the world who kind of handle like contractor management but only that you know you really are trying to build a new type of network and so like the way that we're trying to monetize is a bit unique and there's like adjacent competitors on a lot of different areas but I'd say like you can do that.

[00:25:09] I could see marketer hire as competitive but our business model so different and like our incentives are so different. We're looking to connect people and kind of form that idea that hey contrast the place where you go to find skills like where the professional network for skills the same way you would go to LinkedIn to try to find like sales leads or like certain people who have worked at certain companies

[00:25:30] and so there's definitely some competitive elements there but I think ultimately people typically would compare us like a fiver or like an upwork.

[00:25:40] Got it. And Ryan the answer is biggest competitor is the status quo. It's people do it stuff the way they did it yesterday. All of the software plays combined don't aren't even a drop in the status quo bucket.

[00:25:53] So it's you got a lot of change there to deal with. The cool thing is COVID spent a lot of that stuff right for people because they still had to get stuff done and you had to work with people in a different way.

[00:26:06] So if there was silver lining and COVID that's probably one.

[00:26:12] I think the thing that people will have questions about is if you're handling the payments you're handling kind of the legal infrastructure as well.

[00:26:24] What else what else you know what else makes you special. I'm not really thinking about your competitors as much as just you sticking out kind of for them especially if they've never done it because I'm assuming your budget comes from staffing.

[00:26:40] So they have a staffing budget somehow and they use some of that staffing budget on this to just staff differently.

[00:26:50] Right. I mean but if I might be wrong about that.

[00:26:53] No that's that's that's right.

[00:26:55] Okay. Okay. So then differentiation. I think one of the things that I asked generally ask entrepreneurs like yourself is you probably have a wholesale team and all this stuff you probably don't do a lot as much demos as you once did.

[00:27:11] But your favorite part of the demo when you get to this place in Contra you know that they're going to go oh okay. This is what's different. I got it.

[00:27:22] What is that.

[00:27:24] So I actually do a lot of demos. I'm still I'm still in the weeds though if that's helpful.

[00:27:31] Bless you.

[00:27:32] No no it's it's it's fun and it's it's fun to kind of show the world.

[00:27:38] Like my favorite part of the demo is actually showing potential customers how Contra uses Contra.

[00:27:45] And so if that makes sense. So like we are 25 people and we have around 42 active contractors right now working across like marketing engineering social media customer support.

[00:28:02] Anything that you can imagine that a company needs. And so what I love to do is show them how we built our network how that network supports us.

[00:28:11] What roles like in like skills we're hiring for and then typically if someone I'm like hey like so what are you what are you looking for like what do you need help with.

[00:28:19] I can go over to our discover or search and find someone who's like the perfect fit and they could be in their city or they could be local and they could have great recommendations.

[00:28:30] I think like the biggest differentiator for Contra is we've built a product that has aligned incentives from our business model so we're commissioned mission free for both sides so we're able to attract a higher end type of candidate that actually wouldn't go on Fiverr that wouldn't go on Upwork.

[00:28:49] And so when companies are looking for they're looking for a skill like the person is still extremely important in fact it's most important you want to know that you're working with someone that you can trust and someone who's really good.

[00:29:01] Who's provided a great outcome for someone else like just seeing the way that people react when they see the quality of like talent the people that are actually on the Contra platform.

[00:29:10] I think that's usually my second favorite part so one is like I said showing people how Contra uses Contra and then to.

[00:29:18] Just showing you like hey there's like so many great people here that you could work with and it's just a little bit different than your average marketplace.

[00:29:25] So do you say each your own dog food or drink your own champagne.

[00:29:29] Either one.

[00:29:31] You know.

[00:29:33] Definitely we call it dog fooding.

[00:29:35] But you know we're not a champagne team yet but I'd say you know you know before.

[00:29:41] You get in there.

[00:29:43] So I've been what are what are a couple questions they say to what are two questions that customers are not asking or potential customers are not asking during that demo period that you really want them to ask.

[00:29:57] Yeah especially if they've never worked in this manner with talent.

[00:30:00] You know it's again it's change management right they've never worked in good budget.

[00:30:05] You can kind of agree that if they're overwhelmed budget show them how you work with it etc.

[00:30:11] But there's still kind of a battery of questions that should be asking you and Ryan and I are always curious as to what those questions should be from your perspective.

[00:30:22] Yeah that's a great question so most people that come to Contra are.

[00:30:30] Working have worked with like freelancers independence have worked with contractors and especially today most people are looking to expand their contractor operations.

[00:30:41] And so we're seeing this the most at the enterprise level.

[00:30:45] So people at the you know people who are about to go public or people who have like built these big organizations realize that like hey the way we've been hiring isn't really working like the people that we thought we needed.

[00:31:00] We had to let go and lay off and that creates all these types of negative consequences and it takes like months sometimes even years to get over those.

[00:31:09] So the questions that I wish people would ask is you know like how maybe like how should I think about my my flexible talent strategy moving forward.

[00:31:19] I think a lot of people just assume like hey there's like contractors and there's full time but I think the world of work is changing where there's like kind of like this third.

[00:31:30] There's like this almost like this third layer of employment that's happening that I think is going to become like the like the default.

[00:31:38] Which is this idea of just like it's just like flexible right like people who still have context on your business you still have a relationship with these people but you might not need their time full time and they might not want to be full time.

[00:31:54] And they might have a skill that's very in demand that.

[00:31:57] A bunch of different organizations can use it doesn't mean that like they're no longer like part of your team.

[00:32:04] Like there's all these different like legal frameworks that are kind of the hangover from the way everything used to work and we're now so tech enabled everything is becoming AI powered everything is.

[00:32:16] You know becoming digital I think there's just going to be something new that emerges and I think that that's going to be the default way that people work together.

[00:32:25] And so you mentioned.

[00:32:27] No that's it I think I just wish people would ask like hey like how should I be thinking about this and like where is this like where is this world going right.

[00:32:35] So you mentioned funding funding you mentioned IPO also somewhere around to funding.

[00:32:39] You know one of the things and due diligence that people look at is headcount.

[00:32:44] Yeah.

[00:32:45] So this is a way to kind of still get projects to done still get work done but not have the headcount the full time headcount that people have.

[00:32:56] So first of all that's just something to think about for companies as you're as you're thinking about your talent strategy again you might not need to hire that person full time.

[00:33:05] However let me get my talk to my question.

[00:33:08] Question is what the conversion in the old staffing model if somebody somebody did a project and maybe did another project and then they cut me fell in love with them and then they wanted to hire them.

[00:33:22] There usually was some type of conversion fee or success fee or something like that.

[00:33:28] That's one question to on the on the pricing model.

[00:33:32] That's the corporate corporate side one ninety nine four ninety nine.

[00:33:37] Is there any pricing for the candidate side or excuse me the talent side.

[00:33:41] Yeah.

[00:33:43] So for your first for your first question we've seen people who discover someone on Contra they'll do a project and they fall in love and say like I want to hire this person full time.

[00:33:54] There is no success fee on Contra.

[00:33:57] We're like truly a network.

[00:33:59] We're trying to connect people we think you should be able to work with each other however you want.

[00:34:04] We're not the middleman and we try to be like very anti middleman.

[00:34:08] We want to be like more of an open approach so the same way that if you would have found someone on LinkedIn LinkedIn is not going to take a success fee or if you like to.

[00:34:17] I mean potentially.

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:21] Same with Twitter like if you found someone on or sorry X like they're not going to take a success fee or if you like to.

[00:34:27] Take a success fee.

[00:34:29] So we try to we try to imagine ourselves the same.

[00:34:33] Because like that creates word of mouth regardless like if you have a positive experience you find someone great.

[00:34:38] That's just going to create a word of mouth.

[00:34:41] And then the second question was around monetization on the independent side.

[00:34:46] So I have a subscription called Contra Pro which gets you access to analytics it gets you access to certain opportunities and it gets you better placement in our discussion.

[00:34:57] So we try to cover.

[00:34:59] So but it's freemium right so it's free to earn money on Contra you can use our free invoice tool our free proposal tool we have free contracts free profile creation.

[00:35:10] It's really easy to be successful and we're actually the main way people came to Contra in the first place was just using our payments tools so as like someone who's going out to become an independent or a freelancer for the first time.

[00:35:22] You might need a proposal.

[00:35:23] You might need a contract.

[00:35:25] You might need an invoice and so all of that is free on Contra and if you want like better it's almost like paying for better placement in the network.

[00:35:34] You can pay $29 a month and we'll boost your profile.

[00:35:37] And so like I said that's a freemium product as well.

[00:35:43] Where where are you getting.

[00:35:46] I could see pushback happening right we touched on it but where are you getting the most pushback in the sales process when you're going into larger organizations or even your target 50 to 100 people.

[00:36:02] I'd say like with our target there's there's less pushback.

[00:36:06] I think the biggest pushback is maybe they don't have a large volume of contractors and freelancers that they work with so they might say like hey like I might need this for more of like a one off use case and that's OK too.

[00:36:19] You know if you want to have like a one off use case on Contra we just charge $19 per contract on the client side and so we're totally fine with that.

[00:36:29] But at the biggest at like the higher levels like at the enterprise side I think we're just such a new company that we don't have that reputation yet.

[00:36:37] And oftentimes when like people who like run a contingent workforce program like an enterprise like they're bringing in a new vendor and like their jobs on the line.

[00:36:46] And so they need to know that like this is going to work.

[00:36:49] And as like a new company there's always challenges there.

[00:36:51] I think the word you use is like change management but we just need to continue to establish ourselves as thought leaders as kind of like the go to place for this use case and it's going to happen over time.

[00:37:02] But yeah I would say that like the biggest pushback is just obviously one being a new company and then the second one is like not adapting to this way of working.

[00:37:10] But like because of you know all of the downward pressure from the markets whether it's the funding markets whether it's the public markets whether it's from a I people thought there was a recession that was going to happen.

[00:37:24] Some people say there was a recession.

[00:37:27] People are just thinking about like more efficient ways to build teams.

[00:37:30] And so we at least can have the conversation.

[00:37:34] People are more open to this style of working than they have been on both sides because you know having a full time job in 2024 is no longer as secure as it used to be.

[00:37:45] And I think thinking about like hiring a ton of people is also no longer accepted and from like many different angles right whether you're a publicly traded company or you're a private company that's VC backed.

[00:37:58] So people are open to having the conversations.

[00:38:02] It's just adapting to this way of working.

[00:38:04] I think it's going to continue to it's going to continue to go mainstream.

[00:38:07] It already has and then at the highest levels we just need better.

[00:38:11] We just need to get our get our name out there.

[00:38:13] We got to keep going.

[00:38:15] So dumb question is the network that you have is it closed because when you mentioned profile on the freemium side you'll set up your profile and I'm sure that you set up your profile elsewhere.

[00:38:28] And can I get to that without going into so that I can Google that I can find that person.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:37] Question for you.

[00:38:39] Can you source that?

[00:38:41] Can you X-ray that or get that to can a sorcerer get to that data.

[00:38:45] Sure.

[00:38:47] If it's if it's out there in public but I think I think I would hope at this point companies are beyond trying to get stuff for free like this.

[00:38:58] And actually probably not.

[00:39:00] However I think the upside is much greater for the amount of people that will find and do well.

[00:39:06] The upside is much greater to you know to the company to to yeah to just use it.

[00:39:12] I'm just thinking of the sourcing community or the recruiting community looking for a hack.

[00:39:16] They're trying to find somebody with video production skills etc.

[00:39:20] And if it's an open network they go and can find that person those skills.

[00:39:23] So I think so so good.

[00:39:26] So a good use case here is I think it's called Codable right the word for WordPress site is it Codable I think it is.

[00:39:33] Those guys try to try to rip them out and they're going to say no.

[00:39:39] They're not interested because they are fed so much work they're vetted properly and they're fed so much work at a high level and high dollar amount.

[00:39:50] There's no reason for them to go out and work directly with you.

[00:39:55] But so what.

[00:39:57] Yeah they'll say here's my link on Codable put the job in invite me to work you don't have to make it public because why do they want to deal with me as a knucklehead trying to push them to do things when I'm as an employer I'm held accountable for what I'm hiring and how I'm communicating and all of that stuff and they take care of payments and processing and all that stuff.

[00:40:20] Yeah.

[00:40:22] You'll have so to answer your question yeah you're going to have some knucklehead sources out there that'll do that right and convince them but in the end I think I think Ben you're right this is this flexible work this is the way of the future I think this is now it's not necessarily the future it's now and people have trust people now have trust in the systems that is going to work and so they stick with it.

[00:40:47] Yeah I totally agree and willing to answer your question word 100% indexable like if you find if you search for someone's name oftentimes if they're on contra like their contra profile will rank.

[00:40:59] Just as you're filling in or a Twitter and you can go to contra.com slash discover and you can search for whatever you want and then we don't limit that like we want to connect people we want to connect people to opportunity we think that that is ultimately going to compound and over time like enough word of mouth will happen enough people have a good experience that they'll say like hey you should probably be on contra or hey you should use contra and we're starting to see that happen in a big way.

[00:41:25] So Ryan touched on it a little bit it's a two sided market place you're looking for the independence and the employers right so it's almost B to C because you're trying to get both of those characters to get on contra sign up for it and then get into it and start doing your bit.

[00:41:45] What are you doing to attract it's probably a different thing for both audiences but what are you doing to attract those two kind of different types of groups of people.

[00:41:56] Yes so we started with the with the independent side we started attracting people who were going independent looking to go independent and we built up I guess you could call it the supply side of the platform first.

[00:42:09] And that in itself attracted the demand side in a big way.

[00:42:15] And now there's almost like this third user who's coming to the platform so you have like companies and you have independence.

[00:42:23] Now there's like this third type of user which is software tools.

[00:42:28] So tools like Framer tools like Spline like Webflow all these different like WordPress would be another example of these tools who have expert communities who rely on.

[00:42:39] Freelancer adoption for their tool adoption.

[00:42:42] We're starting to see these tools come to the platform and create expert networks on control.

[00:42:48] That's another offering that we've seen has also been able to attract clients to we just launched an expert network with a product called Rive and they do like animation for like game development really for anything for the web.

[00:43:04] It's really cool but there's a lot of companies like Duolingo you know the little owl that Duolingo has that's a build in Rive.

[00:43:11] And so like there's companies who are looking for people who know Rive specifically and when they look for Rive experts they come to Contra.

[00:43:18] And I think that's another way that we're seeing companies find Contra as well.

[00:43:23] We launched an expert program with Framer which is like a competitor competitor to like a WordPress or a Squarespace they're amazing they're like blowing up.

[00:43:31] Now when people are looking for like a Framer developer or Framer expert they come to Contra.

[00:43:37] And so we're seeing like this ecosystem evolve where you know having those skills having that expertise is kind of this new currency and there's just like a huge market for it like massive like global too.

[00:43:50] And so we're just trying to you know like I said we're just trying to become like the most frictionless place to to find skills to like to find these relationships.

[00:44:01] And so I'm curious like how you both use use up work you should probably use Contra like you could probably find some people well well played well played.

[00:44:11] It just got snuck it in there to get off that antiquated a lot of demos.

[00:44:17] Yeah.

[00:44:19] He's still in the weeds.

[00:44:21] That's good.

[00:44:23] I got one last question for me.

[00:44:25] I got something success.

[00:44:27] It's for 24.

[00:44:29] We're almost three a quarter in right.

[00:44:32] So you get to the end of the year.

[00:44:34] Let's just say your own encounter year.

[00:44:36] What's success for you.

[00:44:37] So we've had over 20,000 companies and clients use Contra.

[00:44:44] But we want to get a lot more companies using our paid product because we think it's super valuable.

[00:44:50] So I think you know for us we'd love to get thousands of companies using our our Contra for companies product.

[00:44:58] And you know we're at around 700,000 independence on the platform today.

[00:45:03] We'd like to get into the millions.

[00:45:04] You know we think that Contra is just a better platform all around.

[00:45:08] Obviously what we want to balance it you know supply and demand but we have so many great tools for independence to use to run their business that I think it's a win-win.

[00:45:17] And then finally you know kind of expanding our expert programs.

[00:45:22] You know we have a lot of cool expert programs and programs in the works.

[00:45:26] We're doing one with Wix.

[00:45:28] Hopefully we can do one with Webflow.

[00:45:29] Hopefully we can we have one launching with Descript which is like this AI video editor.

[00:45:35] So we want to continue to like expand our expert networks and then potentially bring in expert communities because I think where the world is going.

[00:45:44] You know LinkedIn is it's hilarious like it's a lot of humble bragging.

[00:45:48] It's a lot of self promotion.

[00:45:50] It's a lot of sales content.

[00:45:52] People still need to connect with other people around topics.

[00:45:55] And one of those topics really is expertise with a certain tool.

[00:46:00] So let's just say that you are a WordPress developer and that's how you make your money.

[00:46:05] You probably want to talk to other WordPress developers to understand like how what they're doing to get inspiration.

[00:46:10] And so we want to bring that social component to Contra as well.

[00:46:13] So we want discussions in like almost like Reddit style forums around different expert networks and tools to continue to support our community.

[00:46:20] So that would be really cool to launch this year.

[00:46:22] We have in the works but yeah.

[00:46:23] Yeah.

[00:46:25] More come there.

[00:46:27] And I like that.

[00:46:29] I like the social aspect of it because I'm as you're saying that I'm thinking Facebook Facebook groups a lot of these developer communities have Facebook groups.

[00:46:36] Especially all of the WordPress marketplaces that you're talking about.

[00:46:41] But as you go into them it becomes a sales thing.

[00:46:44] Like here's my portfolio and you want to help with this.

[00:46:46] And then all of a sudden you've got 22,000 people in the group and it's no longer useful for those doing the developing to actually have meaningful conversations.

[00:46:56] So I do like that.

[00:46:58] I think that is a huge upside there is a huge upside there for you.

[00:47:02] Ben I think this was fantastic man.

[00:47:06] I love what you guys are doing.

[00:47:08] I want to see it actually in like on screen and demoed.

[00:47:12] I want to actually see that so I'm probably going to tap you for that.

[00:47:14] Maybe maybe if we're lucky we'll find some people to help us.

[00:47:18] But yeah man hey thank you so much for coming on.

[00:47:22] If you all still listening please subscribe take a look at us everywhere if you see us out say hello give us some love and we'll wait back to you.