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[00:00:00] Plot Talk Radio December 2nd, 2020. Look at all that. 0-2-2-0-2-0. Anyway, a few housekeeping announcements before we get going. The Recruiting Animal Show participated in TalentNet Live, the conference put on by Craig Fisher.
[00:00:50] A couple of weeks ago, we had a lot of fun. We liked it. We were on video. Everybody wanted me to switch to video. So the next two shows, the last two of this year will probably be on Zoom. And then we're going to go on to StreamYard.
[00:01:07] I'm not signed up yet, so I don't know exactly how it works. But apparently, it's video and it broadcasts the show on a bunch of different platforms at the same time so people can watch us live on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and YouTube.
[00:01:22] So the only thing is, I don't know how you call in. I guess I have to give links out. I'll find out. Michael G. Cox told me that he comes into the show all the time after my intro.
[00:01:36] I've been doing these intros from the start. They used to be more interesting, I think, than they are now. But if he's a regular and he thinks they're boring, maybe I shouldn't do them. And if we switch to video, maybe there won't be any more intros.
[00:01:52] But for the time being, Jerry, can you tell us what show is this? The Recruiting Animal Show! Thank you to my sponsors! I said last time we were on, I said I'd build them but I haven't. Anyway, honet.
[00:02:36] The online interview technology. I'll tell you more about it later. PCrecruiter.net. The most versatile Swiss Army knife of recruiting software. PCrecruiter.net, our first sponsor as well. And HIRTUAL.
[00:02:55] And we have a super duper sourcing tool that every great sorcerer and every great recruiter raves about it all the time. And finally, SteffiNDet.com. If you are an agency recruiter and someone's cheating you by making a backdoor hire,
[00:03:13] these are the guys. I'm going to do their ad right now. They exclusively specialize in collecting recruiting fees. They send someone out for an interview and they say, oh thanks recruiter but we're going to pass on this person.
[00:03:30] And a little while later you find that they didn't pass. They hired that person behind your back. Well, you go to these guys at SteffiNDet.com and they will collect it for you. Ross, no Rich. Rich Rosen. I can't remember Rich's name.
[00:03:49] Oh boy. Anyway, Rich Rosen says they're very good and you can actually listen to Wilson Cole, the boss, if you scroll down on the recruiting animal shows. He was a great guest.
[00:04:01] I want to give you the latest news about COVID but first I'm going to introduce today's guest, Audria Falco. I don't know if she's related to Edie Falco from the Sopranos.
[00:04:13] Audria, are you related? I am not. I always get asked if I'm related to this Falco or that Falco but no I'm not. No Edie. Well, you know what, at least you got a name that people recognize and they'll remember.
[00:04:26] For sure. And you got something to talk about instead of COVID when you meet somebody, right? Yeah for sure. I don't know what we're going to talk about. Half my conversations are about COVID news. I don't know when it's over, what I'm going to say.
[00:04:42] Anyway, speaking of COVID, just let me say that I saw the guy who's in charge of Operation Warp Speed, the vaccination project for the United States. He said the whole USA is going to be vaccinated by June.
[00:04:58] 75% of the population is going to be vaccinated by May and that's going to give them herd immunity. There won't be enough people to spread the virus anymore.
[00:05:09] I was so excited when I heard that. Then in the afternoon I heard that Canada, where I live, is good way behind.
[00:05:16] By September we're going to have let's say half or maybe a bit more than half of Canada because we don't have any production facilities here in the country. So my guess is that here unfortunately we've got another year of masking and all this kind of stuff going on.
[00:05:34] So Audrey, have you changed your work practices in any way for the last year? And once you get vaccinated and after June is it going to change back for you? Yeah. I would say 98% of our company works from home now and we are close to 40,000 people.
[00:05:55] So it changed drastically. Now quite frankly I worked from home, from one office, from another kind of wherever I wanted.
[00:06:03] So I would say for my recruiting team it wasn't necessarily a huge change but we are a software engineering company at our core and so we work with thousands of clients.
[00:06:14] So it was a big change a lot for our clients. So there was definitely a shift. Do I see it'll go back? You've been talking for two minutes and you haven't said anything. Okay? This is what you say. Animal, yeah I work from home all the time.
[00:06:29] You didn't make that clear, you should have said all the time. And so it did make any difference to me or anybody on the recruiting team. What? Yeah, not all the time. I like my people. Yeah, welcome to the show, Audrey. That's he's right. Okay?
[00:06:45] Now that was Michael G. Cox by the way. Okay, now look. Okay so but the staff they've been working from their homes. After June are they going to go back to working on site at your clients' places? You're all over the world.
[00:07:02] Who knows when some of these countries are going to get vaccinated. What's the story? I think it'll be by location just like you said right? So I think majority will go back from a company wide perspective. I do think that.
[00:07:17] Okay, I should have cut that right. Bad question. Okay. You are working with a global software engineering services company. That means that to me a little research I did that most of the people you're recruiting are IT programmers. Is that right? Yeah. Okay, like 90% of the people or 100%?
[00:07:42] Oh not 100%. 75% are our programmers or software engineers or I'd even buy more senior than that right? Do you do anything special or do you do it in front of a bookshelf or do you have some kind of zoom background like of a prairie? What's your story?
[00:08:32] Nope. My personal background on video calls is two cats sitting on the back of my chair. They basically sit there all day every day. We're pretty much ourselves right? So the backdrop can be a kitchen, some kids back there, a bookshelf like seems to be the most popular.
[00:08:49] Your pity so hold on. Does a recruiter interview a candidate who doesn't know anything about the company from his or her kitchen? Are you kidding me?
[00:09:01] No, I don't think for recruiters talking to candidates for the first time. No not at all. Of course they're going to be in more of a neutral setting
[00:09:08] but who knows after they build a relationship working with someone week after week getting to know them more, saying that for interviews. I don't know how much video calling they're doing past that right? They might be more talking about each other.
[00:09:19] Oh okay, you're recruiting calls. I never understood that everyone says oh all my calls are on zoom now. What happened to the phone? Okay so you're not-
[00:09:28] Oh yeah I still think there's lots of phones. Yeah I think there's definitely video interviews going on with the recruiting team right? There's definitely videos going on pass up but I think it's not people pick up the calls right?
[00:09:40] I still pick up the phone, make phone calls and just call people like normal. Okay we'll get to that. You said you do high volume recruiting and I told you just before the show started
[00:09:49] high volume to me means unskilled workers or office temps. You're obviously dealing with highly skilled people. What does high volume mean? We really have to hit large numbers globally of engineering hires right? And to me high volume means placing thousands of people a month.
[00:10:11] The particular company I work for has gone through 25% growth basically quarter after quarter for the last eight years and with engineering being the backbone we're hiring high- we're doing high volume recruiting in like you said a little bit more difficult skill set
[00:10:28] but you came out and grown a framework. You're talking for a minute let me guide you dear. Okay I shouldn't say dear but I said it with real affection just so you know okay?
[00:10:39] You said something really interesting the company is growing at a rate of 25% a quarter just blew me out of the water okay? Now so but it's high volume you said okay we're hiring lots of people and you didn't give me a number
[00:10:53] like what does that mean and how do you do it that makes it different from other kinds of recruiting? What kind of number? I'll narrow my questions. It's my fault not yours. It's my fault not yours. I'll give you a number. I give you a number. 1000, 2000, come on.
[00:11:11] I'll give you a 10,000 plus annually right? So and of course you're always accounting for attrition at any company when you're internal right to a company.
[00:11:21] So but you know thousands I mean thousands when I say thousands that's fluctuated when I first worked with this company they were like 12,000 people there right? So thousands is really accurate how do we do it? To me I believe...
[00:11:35] I have another question so thousands of people but your focus is on developers. Are most of the jobs the same or most of them the same or different? Most of them are the same we could have very specific technologies that need to come into play
[00:11:58] but a lot of them are at their core around similar software engineering skills. Okay so are you putting ads in papers and getting thousands of replies and you know it's all for the same kind of person so it's pretty easy. How does it work? Are you using...
[00:12:15] No most of our... No, no, no, no, no. That's what I was saying the setup is really driven by where we know we can be successful hiring and that's going out finding the people right?
[00:12:26] I think you know applicants can always attribute to a certain amount of your hires but not for the level and I think skill set we look for.
[00:12:33] So we have a real concentration on sourcing right and filling the top of the funnel ourselves with the quality of candidate that we're looking for which I think is important to know. Okay how do you get them...
[00:12:44] Do you use a candidate pipeline technology like Candidate ID where you feed them little articles and stuff like that? We've got a plan between both TA delivery I'll call it recruiting and we work with our marketing teams right in different scenarios
[00:13:00] but at the end of the day it's actually teams of sorcerers right? It's recruiters that have a passion for sourcing that are out there sourcing through proprietary software that we have through things like LinkedIn of course right and that's their main focus.
[00:13:15] It's not about them handling the candidate through our interview process it's literally them building out pipelines of candidates that's all that they're focused on and we don't do that as a junior feeder program right?
[00:13:23] It's really a senior person doing work like that and it makes a huge difference with the volume we're talking about and finding the candidate quality we need. Okay you said you're proprietary software for sourcing what does that mean?
[00:13:34] Like proprietary not proprietary sorry homegrown sorry I used the wrong word homegrown. Yeah well that's what I thought you meant so you guys develop your own sourcing software? Yeah we have internal ATS and tools that we use but I think that's part of who we are
[00:13:53] it's like we're software engineers at the core as far as the company so we like to go. Okay so hold on so like does that one of our sponsors is HireTool. You guys have created your own internal sourcing tool like HireTool is that what you're saying?
[00:14:08] No we definitely plug in some like external pieces right? We like to find where we have success with some external pieces. Moving on Michael G Cox are you still awake? Michael G Cox I've got a feeling I'm floundering here am I? A little bit.
[00:14:26] Yeah okay what should I ask her? Favorite tools? This is your thing no not tools. No? That's what I'm going to go for favorite tools. It's like what do you do? You're managing a bunch of recruiters is that you're not hands-on
[00:14:44] you're managing people aren't you know what's the story with you Audrey? Yeah actually I do our TA operations now I manage that so not even recruiters it's like how do we set up globally right?
[00:14:56] For success it's very removed from the day-to-day recruiting but that's a bit of a recent move. But you know I'd say work hand in hand. What is that in pale? Sure. What is it that you are actually setting up on the back end to obviously enable your recruiters?
[00:15:12] Sure like the tools we talked about right like our in-house tools they work a lot with that making sure they're delivering for the recruiters what they need the tool to do is quickly spot right all those things
[00:15:22] that that can be cumbersome to a recruiter that we're minimizing all that with. So what does that mean? Does a recruiter call you up and say, you know, you give me garbage to work with here how can I do my job is that what's going on?
[00:15:38] You say well what's wrong and then they say. No not garbage but close. They don't say garbage but close. They call me and say hey it would be really great if our product could do A, B and C internally. It would really skip this menu.
[00:15:53] Give us an example of A, B and C. What does that mean? I don't like to be up in the clouds. I like hands-on granular information. What are they talking about? So let's say you have to automate your compliance right like let's say they've been manually sending out
[00:16:09] GDPR type things or EEO things for US right it's making sure that our tools built in house run those things in an automated fashion for them so that recruiters can focus in on their recruiting right.
[00:16:20] Things like that. The products that we use internally have been around for years now it's not like their garbage right but you have to work on making them better making sure they stay with friends.
[00:16:28] So then you run to the people who are responsible for maintaining that internal software and say look I'm getting badgered by the people out in the field okay can you do something?
[00:16:38] A little like that you know we have a project team we work together I mean it's a standard cycle of working on software there right? You're like a business analyst right? You're like a business analyst you go out to the staff you know what tabs they need
[00:16:55] or changes and you go back to your developers and say can you do this for me? Is that essentially your job? That's part of it. That's one part we're talking about tools. That's real nice. Yeah no part of it is doing that type of work.
[00:17:10] You know there's lots of things like our reporting in a large company being able to report on your talent right is really important so that's my responsibility. So things along those lines those operational pieces.
[00:17:21] I just got the feeling if I had to hire thousands what 10,000 people a year is that what you said? What number? I would cure myself. I don't know if I could handle it. Michael G Cox is that too much for your brain?
[00:17:37] How many people do you have or how many recruits you have? I don't know. I don't know at the top of my head. I can't answer that. I don't mind if you say it's a secret okay? I don't mind if you say it's a secret.
[00:17:48] No I honestly can't tell you. I don't accept that. I don't know! More than 100? Yeah definitely definitely definitely. I can't tell you because some are researchers some are recruiters some might be a recruiting admin and I don't dig into those numbers deep enough.
[00:18:04] I don't know if I can get to that point yet. I honestly don't know or I would tell you that I don't want to tell you right if I know. How many languages do you speak? Me? One. Exactly one language.
[00:18:16] Not even Italian? I don't know your last name is Falco. No. I've tried to learn several. I don't think language learning is necessarily my forte. But no I speak English and so does everybody. I speak English and so does everyone at my company. No no that's good news.
[00:18:40] I even though we've got two official languages here and I had to take it to school I only speak English fluently so I could still be a big shot global manager just like you. Is that right? Yeah yeah I can.
[00:18:53] I wouldn't say big shot but yeah you can. Hold on how many reports you got you have a hundred reports or how many reports? No no no no no no no no no no no not like that.
[00:19:05] I did it one point at EFAM right but that's when I was running North American recruiting the actual recruiting in North America the recruiters the sources to everybody now I'm out into a different type of world global it's TA operation
[00:19:18] so recruiters don't report into me it's something I've moved away from recently so I built the North American team right there wasn't one for EFAM and then now kind of moving on over to other countries to work with them.
[00:19:32] Okay let me ask you a different kind of question so I see you know there's a lot of recruiters out of work because of the COVID crisis and I see tons of them complaining that they apply for recruiting jobs and the recruiters ghost them
[00:19:48] and that doesn't even mean like I sent my resume in and I never heard back that too but these recruiters actually get in touch with them and never follow up they'll make an appointment to talk to them
[00:20:01] and they never show up and they never reply to any kind of things and Jerry Crispin who's very famous in case you haven't heard of him he had a long comment on my Facebook group today and he said that's absolutely true that is a shame in the business
[00:20:18] that recruiters are ghosting candidates. Do you find that that's an issue or do you do anything special to make sure that it doesn't happen in your company? We so I'll take in two pieces I think it's terrific so I completely agree with him right
[00:20:38] I mean to any candidate recruiter or not a recruiter candidate that's how you lose any rapport, any type of rep anything right. Do I think it's an issue? I don't think it is for me
[00:20:51] I don't think it is for the organization I work for do I think it happens out in the market for sure because that's how recruiters get unfortunately some of the reputations we get is that recruiters do go out there
[00:21:03] part of it is they can be heavily agency recruiters and they're just always working close to the money and always just chasing that and that leads to that behavior. Hold on we're not talking about agency recruiters here we're talking about in-house recruiters.
[00:21:18] Okay so let me just close this off I'm not cornering you know you sound bright you're a good talker but I'm taking responsibility I'm not asking you narrow enough questions okay why does it happen? Do you have an answer?
[00:21:36] I don't know say animal I know and I'm going to tell you or I haven't got a clue which is what are you going to choose those two? People are busy I think companies are hiring and recruiters are busy
[00:21:48] corporate side right now. I think they're busier than they expected to be I think they had a slower time when COVID first came out So I'm recruiting and I say I say I say I'm going to get back great I'm glad you've got an interest in this role
[00:22:02] let's talk next Tuesday at three o'clock okay don't I put that in my calendar? No 100% I mean I don't understand why someone would do it I'm telling you what I think right because I can't but it's so widespread there must be some systemic problem
[00:22:23] to use a popular word right now You know what there's a recruiter on the line who's only got one month's experience I don't want to embarrass you but Donna do you have anything to add to this or just give you a chance Donna you've got to go Steve
[00:22:37] I have so much to add No but seriously one thing that I could say is turnover because I know that where I'm working a lot of the things that I've been doing the last few weeks have been cleanup
[00:22:50] for people who left and they had people on their plan to call but then they were gone so all of those people would have in essence been ghosted if I hadn't come in and started cleaning up the plan
[00:23:01] Okay that's your little world okay I don't know how much that applies to the recruiter world at large Well you asked my experience and that is what I have experienced in limited as it is but I told you I have very little to add
[00:23:16] I like her spunky attitude don't mess with me animal I'm going to tell you okay Ask me and I'm giving you the information She's a future guest I don't want that one Yeah she's a guest she's a future guest
[00:23:30] Okay Michael G Cox while you're there while you're still awake Do you have an explanation why all this ghosting is going on? Well I think it's a combination of the things I'll focus in on two specifics
[00:23:43] Number one it's a difficult recruiter conversation to say no to a candidate So more often than not some people that are afraid of that more difficult conversation just aren't going to call back and the other is sometimes corporate recruiters are bogged down with legal issues
[00:24:13] that are interjecting like well you can't say this and you can't say this and you should say this and don't give them any specifics so it builds up a certain level of fear in recruiting like I don't want to say the wrong thing
[00:24:27] I don't want to get the organization or myself in any kind of trouble so I'm just not going to say anything I'm going to send them a video You know what that's a ridiculous answer Okay we're talking about a recruiter who makes an appointment to speak to somebody
[00:24:40] I'm going to talk to you I like your recruiting experience you've got ten years you sound like you might be a good candidate for this job let's speak on Tuesday 10 a.m. in the morning
[00:24:49] and you don't show up and it's not because I already expressed that I want to talk with you it's not because I get cold feet later on okay Pat I don't like your answer okay I'm going to do an ad
[00:25:02] I'm going to do an ad for PCRecruiter.net Hey everybody they've been our longest sponsor okay and the thing that Marty Snyder says about them he's the boss over there and you can talk to him on Facebook anytime he's all over the place he says they are configurable
[00:25:21] they are customizable they're good for tiny little companies if you're working from your mom's basement or your kitchen with your cereal bowl in front of you while you're talking to people you've never met Candace you've never met you're in the kitchen on Andrea's team
[00:25:37] and you got your cereal and Andrea okay I'm just joking but anyway it's for that kind of recruiter and it's for a recruiter who's got on a team of hundreds of recruiters like her real team okay not the one I just made up
[00:25:51] I don't want her in a boss coming to say Lily you've got on the show with this guy and he's embarrassing you no I'm not I'm just kidding around okay but PCRecruiter if you're a recruiter any kind of recruiter any kind of recruiting
[00:26:04] or any kind of size of team they love you and if you're afraid to set up your software yourself configure it to suit your own needs rather than their needs they'll help you they are waiting for you with open arms check them out at PCRecruiter.net okay
[00:26:24] here's another question Andrea okay Donna you saw even though you're inexperienced I'm willing to have you contribute so don't make me callin' you if you want to say something just speak up okay Donna sounds like the kind of person who would slap you on a first date
[00:26:41] okay just I just want to say that well Adam will you sound like somebody that might need to get slapped on a first date? maybe so but not for me two reasons okay it just maybe it just might not like me oh okay now are you know like
[00:26:57] shut up already bow I like that Batman cartoon if you're seeing them you know what yeah you know the one where Batman hits Robin okay so hold on you know what I read all these articles Andrea where they you know they say the candidate should ask
[00:27:15] all kinds of tough questions when they're in there like what's the biggest threat to this business you know what are the things that keep you up at night you know what's the biggest internal risk you know if you send a candidate into a hiring manager and this candidate
[00:27:33] starts asking these deep questions about the problems at the company but do you think the hiring manager is going to take kindly to that and say well this is a really you know someone with a lot of tap this is somebody I want my team
[00:27:47] are they going to say what the heck I'm not going to bring this troublemaker on oh what's the story there you know what I'm talking about I do yeah I do I do I'm not going to be the way that you know it's not something that
[00:28:09] the hiring manager is good with that smart hiring managers honestly I want someone that's asking harder questions I like candidates that are interviewing me back quite honestly because it means that they really care about the fact about where they're going it's a big decision
[00:28:25] so it doesn't bother me and I don't think it would bother there you know any risk for the company i don't think it's a bad thing. Okay, how many high re... what percentage of high-re managers are bad at recruiting? Because we always hear that they're just the...
[00:28:39] They're the dumbest and they might be good at their own jobs but they don't know anything they don't know how to you know present the company to a good candidate. They don't prepare for the interviews. Okay, well actually they are recruiters Michael G Cox.
[00:28:58] Yeah that's part of the job. They're part of... everybody's part of it. So that's part of our job though, right? It's part of our job to help them be good at their part of the job that's hiring, right? And their part of the job that's hiring is
[00:29:10] sharing on social media making sure they come to interview, right? All that kind of stuff. And yes there are hiring managers that aren't good at that but I find like that's a part of our job
[00:29:18] right as a recruiting team to say how can we get you better at that, right? And if you work together, if you really partner with your hiring manager, you both can get better at filling their
[00:29:26] roles, right? And I think that's the core of it. But people have to learn. I think it's taken for granted like people don't realize how recruiting works, how a recruiter looks at your resume and what happens in
[00:29:38] between. And I don't even think hiring managers know that. And educating them is like the best first place to start, right? And I think being a recruiting consultant to your hiring manager is the best way to go about that. Really taking it from
[00:29:50] that mindset. That like I'm going to teach them what we do, I'm going to talk to them about what we do, I'm going to give them transparency and then work together to figure this out because you need them
[00:29:58] involved. You need them sharing on social, you need them showing up for interviews, right? You need them giving feedback. All of that matters because time kills, right? Okay. Okay. Okay. So how do
[00:30:08] you all that high level stuff you've told us now? How do you do it? You meet a hiring manager for the first time, you say look pal, this is how we're going to work, okay? If you want
[00:30:17] me to supply people to you, this is the way I work. You're going to work to my requirements. I'm the recruiting expert here and if you don't, I'm not going to work on your jobs. It's just
[00:30:28] black and white, okay? Which way are we going to go? You can't do that in the corporate world though. There's no way I'm going to tell a hiring manager we're not going to work on their job.
[00:30:36] But I hear your question, right? So it's consistent communication and picking up the phone. Quite frankly, that's all it is. Like most all of the issues that go down between recruiters and hiring managers is solved with making sure you're talking to each other and talking
[00:30:50] to each other often live, not emailing about your candidate, not following up for feedback to email, talking to them, building a rapport with them. And you don't walk away from the roles, right? You have like your responsibility to fill those roles or at least bring back to the
[00:31:03] table why you can't fill them and absolutely can't, right? So I just think it's part of how you build that rapport with that hiring manager. That's it. Okay. You're still getting, you're still circling around the runway here, okay? You got a good candidate. Well,
[00:31:20] come to the classic cases. You got a good candidate. You say, boy, that was hard to find. I'm glad. And then you call the hiring manager and yeah, it was good, but I like to see a couple more.
[00:31:31] And you say, well, you're saying to yourself, where the hell am I going to find more? What's wrong with this guy? Why aren't you ready to hire? Okay. That's what we say. That's what you say. Yeah, absolutely. What's wrong with this guy?
[00:31:43] Why don't you like him? If there's tangible reasons, then maybe we go find more. And so yeah, what's wrong with this guy? Why don't you hire him? You know, he's good,
[00:31:53] but I still like to see more. I don't like to hire the first person you send me. Okay. Oh, what do you say? That's not an acceptable answer. You keep on that, right? Well, then
[00:32:02] in order for me to go back to the market and find someone that's better for you, tell me exactly why this person, right? I mean, this is part of that conversation I'm talking
[00:32:09] about. It's not okay to just roll over. I guess is what I'm saying. It's never okay to just roll over when you know you're just going to go back and make the same mistake. You're contradicting yourself. You're contradicting yourself. You said when I talked to, yeah, here's how,
[00:32:24] when I said, look, you've got to get tough with these guys. Oh no, I can't talk to a I remember like that. Now you're saying look, buddy. Okay. You better tell me why exactly what
[00:32:39] you're looking for. I just want to see no way. That doesn't work with me. You better get specific. I'm not going out or I want this and this and this and you say, well, you know how hard it
[00:32:51] is to find that? No, that doesn't work. That's not real world. Is that that what you're telling me? Is that how you talk to them? No, not at all. Not at all. I think you're staying
[00:33:03] kind of the right things but not in the right way. Again, it comes back to the report. I think you think I'm talking high level about it, but I'm not. It's really important that you guys can
[00:33:12] have uncomfortable conversations with each other and still work together and partner and I want to hear a story. You've been in the business a long time, so it doesn't mean that you have to snitch on somebody you talked to yesterday and you get identified. No, no, no.
[00:33:28] You just pick from your long history some version of a tough conversation. I want to hear what that is. Go ahead. Something along the line. I'm going to put me on the spot. Let me think.
[00:33:39] Okay, hold on. I'll do an ad. No, no, you think about it. I'll do an ad for a higher tool. H-I-R-E-T-U-A-L. Higher tool. I've got to tell you, I will admit there's lots of...
[00:33:53] And Marty Snyder taught this to me, the guy from PC Recruiter. He said there's lots of good recruiting software out there. He said, but we've got a special niche and we are good recruiting software. But the same is true for higher tool. There's a lot of good sourcing
[00:34:08] software out there now, but higher tool is a leader. It is a leader and I don't have to prove it to you. You go on Facebook. Every Facebook group for recruiters has constant discussions about,
[00:34:22] what's the best sourcing tool I should get? What should I buy? Okay, higher tool is always getting rave reviews from name brand recruiters. They've been on the show, they rave about it. Okay, and that's what you should do. Go to Facebook, recruitingtricks.com, you'll find my Facebook group.
[00:34:41] Jerry's is at recruiters who actually make placements. Michael G. Cox, do you have a recruiting group yet? No. No. Donna, you've been in the business for a month. Do you have a recruiting group of your
[00:34:55] own on Facebook yet? Did I run? Yeah. I could start one. Would you join? No, go ahead. Everybody's got one. Just don't advertise it on mine. You know these people start off their own groups and they think they're going to train my members. No way. Okay?
[00:35:12] Okay, you said it now. It's recorded. I'm inviting you. Okay, just an invitation. Okay, but look, hold on. My point is that if you want to find out about higher tool, get it from the horse's mouth. They're talking about it all the time. Okay,
[00:35:29] H-R-E-T-U-A-L. Okay, Donna, I talked enough there. Not Donna. Now I'm back to Audrey. You're the only Audrey I know. Okay? It's a bit of an odd name. There's a lot of Audrey Falcos on LinkedIn, but you're
[00:35:40] the only Audrey. That's how I found you. In the world. I'm the only Audrey in the world. Wow. What an honor. Okay. Let me just see if anybody else is here. No, let me just see if there's any
[00:35:57] complaints on Twitter yet. Okay, is anybody complaining about us? No. Okay, good. Okay, so hold on a second. So yeah, so you're going to tell us... I forgot my question already, but now I remembered. You're going to tell us about a tough... You want to make an awkward
[00:36:11] situation. Yeah, tough conversation. Go ahead. Yeah, I think the toughest conversations are when it might be the person you're talking to fault, right? So you want an example. Okay, so somebody comes and says, I don't have enough candidates for my role, let's say,
[00:36:26] and you say, well, here's what we've sent so far. You have data. Again, I told you before, I know you think it's boring, but I think data is really important to be able to build these
[00:36:35] relationships. And you're saying, hey, we gave you enough candidates. This is where they're all falling out and it's your step. You're rejecting them all after three successful interviews previous to that. So the difficult conversation is understanding how the actual hiring managers
[00:36:48] just disjointed from the rest of their interview process and each candidate and oftentimes the timing is taking them because in any recruiting job I've been in... Yeah, let me stop you. Okay, let me stop you. I don't understand a word you're saying.
[00:37:01] Okay, I wanted to blow by blow. Okay, let's say your guy is named Ivan, your hiring manager. There is no way I could remember a blow by blow conversation like you know. I remember the painful conversations I've had. Something's wrong with your brain.
[00:37:18] Those are the ones that you remember best. Maybe they get blocked out on purpose, but there's no way I could remember like word for word any of the millions of conversations I've had with hiring managers in my career. You know what, if I sent somebody in three
[00:37:36] good candidates and this hiring manager rejected them all three, I just can't be bothered to go out and struggle. It's a struggle. Now the thing is you're hiring volume so maybe it's not...
[00:37:50] You don't go back out. But you don't go back out. You don't take the struggle back on. That's what I'm saying. Depending on the conversation that has to be had, you make changes. Like if nothing
[00:37:59] changes, nothing changes, right? So something has to give and you just have to figure out... No, no, let me say something. No, no, I'll go... Okay, you said you need the hiring manager to participate by posting on social media. Now the hiring manager might not have a clue
[00:38:17] about what's good to post. It might not want to be bothered with it because she's busy. How do you navigate that? You say, look, I'll write the copy for you. You just put it out on your account. Okay, is that what happens? Everybody's different. Some people drive it
[00:38:33] on their own but I'm for sure always... Not even myself like TA marketing can always supply that type of backbone. There's never a reason that they just can't create it. We'll help them through that. But there's lots of people invested in hiring managers that just do it
[00:38:45] themselves, right? Which I prefer because of course there's authenticity to it. But sure, any support they need for stuff like that... Okay, and do you force these people... Do you force the hiring managers to reveal their link? Do you go through all their LinkedIn connections
[00:38:59] and have them say, this person's good for the job? That person's good. Did you do that? Do you force them to do that? I have. Yeah, I have. I mean not every hiring manager for sure but I'm definitely not only hiring managers but people on their
[00:39:10] teams, right? Just sat down with three of them at a time and said... How do you do that? How do you do that? If I had to do it tomorrow, what should I say
[00:39:16] to the person? You said you have to build rapport but of course you didn't tell us how to build rapport. I mean you talk about the last night's hockey game or what do you do?
[00:39:27] Same way you do with the candidate. How do you build rapport with the candidate? I don't know how to build rapport, okay? I don't know. Mike and Gcox will back me up on that. I've never figured it out. This is true.
[00:39:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait a second. Donna, Donna, wait she's been in the business for a month. Donna, do you know how to build rapport after just a little while in the business?
[00:39:49] You know, I think she's got it down. Yeah, I'm not gonna say Donna sounds good at this. Yeah, that's the part I understand. It's the rest of the business I have to learn. I can talk to people. Yeah.
[00:40:01] Okay, how do you build rapport? No, no, just stop. Tell me. Tell me, how do you build rapport with somebody? Are you asking me now? Yeah, Donna, I'm asking the newbie. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when I call somebody,
[00:40:15] I just try to, this is gonna sound really stupid. I'm not like my teenagers, but I just try to like vibe with what they're vibing. So if they come at me and they sound very businesslike
[00:40:24] and buttoned up, then I'm gonna sound very professional. And my questions and even my introductory questions will just be more about have you heard of our company? Have you worked with us before? But if they're very casual, you know, and if they're,
[00:40:38] they sound more relaxed, then I'm gonna sound more relaxed too. And I'm gonna talk about like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry, that was my dog. How is it working for mom for you? For me,
[00:40:48] it's having me crazy because she's not set up. Okay, so you do the mirroring. You do the earstick is that mirroring. I'm very bad at that. I don't like mirroring somebody else. Okay, it just doesn't, it's not my thing. Okay, you do that too,
[00:41:02] Audrey, do you mirror people? Do you mirror people? Not initially. I mean, I think not initially take that. I might take that on throughout the conversation. Let's thank you, Donna. She's got guts. Okay. And she's been in the business like yes, since yesterday and she's
[00:41:16] given us advice already. Okay. I told you what I'm doing. Let's not rename it. Okay. Okay, but I thank you. Okay. For me, I agree with that. You're welcome. Thank you. I usually try to find just something in what they're talking about or something because,
[00:41:37] you know, of course, always review a resume beforehand. I always try to find a common ground. So, you know, it might be, it might be something like they went to a college that I watched their
[00:41:48] football team or it might, you know, something. Okay, this is the old stick. I never went to anybody's college. I don't follow the same teams as them, but here's what for you should be doing from now on.
[00:41:58] You'd be saying, Hey, have you been watching the Queens Gambit? I play chess. I gotta tell everybody, Audrey is online. All her chess scores are online, right? I discovered it. She didn't even
[00:42:11] know they were all there. Okay. I didn't know. And this is the way to do it now. Say, hey, did you watch the Queens Gambit? What's that? It's a great new TV show. Everybody loves it.
[00:42:22] And I gotta tell you, I do too because I am a regular chess player. You know, you can find me online if you're really interested. Oh yeah, the Queens Gambit. Is that a good approach? Am I, is that just ridiculous fantasy on my part?
[00:42:38] No, that's a good approach. That's okay. Michael G. Cox. That's the approach ever. Okay. Okay. Approach. Media. Pardon me. There's a new person wants somebody wants to ask a question. Is that what
[00:42:59] yeah, go ahead. I do like pretty much all cold calls all day long. So I don't have like a resume that I'm referencing or anything. So how would that for your for your guests? How would
[00:43:10] that be different? You know, I don't have a CS. I can look on LinkedIn sometimes. So sometimes they don't even have an update profile. Sometimes I'm just really literally cold calling a number. I know
[00:43:19] nothing about the person who's going to pick up other than they should be in such and such departments. And I have to find everything out. So in that instance is what would be the approach. I mean, I think the mirrored approach that was talked about was probably
[00:43:32] really good for that approach. I mean, I get concerned when you're, when we're talking about just calling people that we don't even know if they have the background that we think that they have, right for the role. That's what I know. Are you doing business
[00:43:46] development on those cold calls? Or are you working to connect with candidates on those cold calls? These are candidate calls. These are candidate calls. Okay. They're not a BD calls. Yeah. So I mean, if you get someone on the phone that's willing to interview with
[00:44:01] you right then, I would say the mirroring approach is the best way because you have to find line asking them questions about like personal things, right? Or things that you might be able
[00:44:10] to find a common ground over when you're actually in the interview. When they put it on something on the resume, like a hobby or a club or something like that, it's easier. But I think mirroring,
[00:44:18] right? The tone of them and if things come up in conversation, like I write them down that I think I can anchor back to to build rapport with, right? So if they bring up something
[00:44:27] that's like, that I'm like, Oh, that's like, I have an interest in that too, or I have a thought about that a way to build rapport, I'll kind of write it down
[00:44:34] while they're talking and maybe come back to it. So you want to start out by a bit of mirroring, but hopefully if that person was willing to talk to you, you're kind of building, I mean, I think it's much more about rapport building than it is interviewing sometimes.
[00:44:45] Okay. Okay. We're running out of time. So let me just cut in. I'll tell you what you should do. Okay. Wait a second, Michael G Cox. I'm going to say the first thing you say, Donna is
[00:44:55] hi. My name's Donna. Plus you could say your last name. I'm a head hunter. Okay. Do you have a minute to talk to me right now? Okay. Or should we talk later? Isn't that
[00:45:06] the first thing you do is pretty much what I say. And I do start with that. I say, I'm the name of that company and I say we're executive search and recruitment firm specializing
[00:45:16] in blah, blah, blah. Do you have a minute now or would there be a better time for me to talk to you? And then okay, you know what that would you be? Yeah, that sounds a bit too
[00:45:25] I think you should loosen up a bit. Okay. You should mirror me when we're doing that. But you know what? We could role play, but I gotta do some ads. Okay. For these customers
[00:45:39] who aren't paying me. Okay. Hold on a sec. Wait a sec. Honet. H-O-N-E-I-T.com. Honet is online interview technology. You and the candidate get together on the phone. It records every single thing you say. It turns it into a transcription that's searchable for keywords.
[00:46:03] It gives you the audio recording. It gives you a video recording if you want it. And here's the special key. There are certain questions that this crazy hiring manager is going to give you
[00:46:14] that are the most important ones if you can manage to build the rapport required to squeeze them out of her. Okay. And then when you get to those questions, you press a button and as a person
[00:46:24] talks with you about them, when you're finished that question, you press another button, creates a little clip. You can send that to anybody on the hiring team. They can hear the candidate talk about these essential issues in their own voices. If they've got some sizzle,
[00:46:42] you don't have to pass it on in some kind of dry report. It's delivered direct right from the horse's mouth. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, if you don't really understand the job
[00:46:54] because you're not technical, hopefully the candidate will tell you, you'll say, yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll send the recording to the people who really do understand it so they can make heads or tails of it. Honit, H-O-N-E-I-T dot com. And I think I've represented everybody so far.
[00:47:12] Honit, I'm sorry you're towards the end of the show. I hope people are still listening. It is so exciting. We've got all kinds of people who are like experienced with huge companies and somebody who's just in for a month. Who's got a lot of spunk? I'll say again.
[00:47:26] I hope they're okay with that considering the fact that they've been paying you so well. Well, that's my fault. Hold on. Area 650. Okay, called in just a few minutes ago. You want to say something? Anything? Okay, yeah, I'm just going to give you a chance.
[00:47:41] You don't have to even reveal yourself. Okay, you can just be silent. Or if you want to let your dog bark or in the background, that's okay too. We'll give you five seconds. I don't think that's me. Okay, nothing. Okay, you know what? That whispering stuff
[00:47:57] that Maureen does, I read about it. It's called EMDR. It's supposed to be a very some kind of special psychotherapeutic technique. Anyway, but I just want to say that because last time we were on she was whispering again. Okay, Andrea, is it okay for a candidate to negotiate
[00:48:17] salary? I've been reading a lot of candidates who complain on Twitter that as soon as they started negotiating, the company cut them. They said, you know, this is what we're offering. Don't mess around with us. What's the story with that? Is it something weird? Like,
[00:48:34] candidates have always negotiated salary. Yeah, I think they have every right as just a company. Right? Everyone's got to come to an agreement to make it work. So I don't find this to be
[00:48:42] a new thing. And it's definitely not been new that some companies just walk away. Right? They don't want to deal with the negotiation. They have some set cost or what they think it's a flag. But I think candidates have the right to negotiate. I think companies do too,
[00:48:56] right? It's part of the hiring process in my mind. I don't find it to be odd by at all. Okay. What about these exploding offers? I just learned this term when I did the research online.
[00:49:08] It's like we're giving you the offer. You know, you got 24 hours if we don't hear it back from you. It's pulled. What about that? I feel like again, 24 hours is extreme. 25 hours is extreme. But I don't think this is anything different than what has gone on since
[00:49:25] I started recruiting at an agency, right? Like however long ago back then you'd give people whatever. I think agreed 24 hours. I mean, it's a little but it's always been like this. I actually Yeah, that's not what I'm asking. Yeah, that's not what I'm asking. Listen to my voice.
[00:49:40] And what are you asking? Yeah, yeah, what are you asking me? asking if it's okay. If it's okay and how long, you know, should so what's the maximum you can, you know, give somebody I think you can give someone about three days, three to five days,
[00:49:53] saying there's a weekend all day. How about that? But 24 hours is the recruiter should have preclosed so many times that by the time the offer actually comes, there's no questions. What do you think about that? You have like spouses, you have real life. That doesn't
[00:50:07] work that you can preclose all you want your person can actually be ready to accept. But the mental hurdle of a human to get the piece of paper, talk to their spouse or
[00:50:15] their friends or whoever they're meant whatever right. It takes people a couple days. So I mean, if you're talking more than five, yeah, that's the problem like we've been talking for three
[00:50:24] months, right? Like how do you not know it's been a week now but 24 hours a little tight. But you know, I think a few days and we're good to go. Okay, Michael G Cox wants to say something there. Did you Michael G?
[00:50:37] Yes. So I typically do a three day thing. But your guest said something that kind of scared the crap out of me when she said, Hey, we've been talking for three months. And I realized that
[00:50:51] that's a more standard on the corporate side. I'm curious is because I'm a recovering corporate recruiter. And the big issues that I had was the company moved so slow. And I was one of those to
[00:51:08] pressure sale. Well, I was in sales. So I would pressure my sales managers, directors, VPs, into making a decision and not him and Heine for a week and bring them in for another interview and bring them in for another interview or whatever the case was. So and
[00:51:25] the problem was that we would lose so many individuals because it was taken two months, three months to make a hire. And I'm curious, do you see that a lot in larger corporations? I think it's a 5050 split for me. I've got managers that hire quickly, right? And managers
[00:51:44] that take months. It's not actually a more interviews problem. It's getting through the volume of hiring and like hours in a day. I do think it's a slower machine than the agency
[00:51:53] side. But at an agency, you don't even have to wait those three months. You just walk away. Like you don't take my first three candidates. I have a hotter job over here. You're not even
[00:52:00] going to see those three months out and that's how long it takes the corporation, right? So I think it's a both. I think it's really a split. Some move really fast and some move slower. In general, though, on the agency side, they don't move that slow because again,
[00:52:13] you can get one. Here's what he's asking you. Okay, here's what he's a he made a little speech. He's a guest next week in case you want to harass him. Okay.
[00:52:21] Oh, is that? Yeah. It's the next week. It's next week and we're on Zoom. We have to figure out how to do that. Okay. So besides that, okay, so his real question is if they're too slow,
[00:52:34] how do I make them fast? Now I told you how I would do it. In fact, maybe when I interviewed for the job, I would tell the person, look, if you drag your feet and I might use an
[00:52:44] adjective that we don't use on this show to describe the person's feet. When you drag your expletive deleted feet, I'm going to be all over you, Mr. That doesn't work on this recruiting
[00:52:57] team. So I'd be telling the person like that from the start. So when he or she did drag their feet, you know, they know what's coming from me. Would you do that the same way or,
[00:53:07] you know, advise Michael G Cox how that should happen? How what should happen? How you motivate them? Oh, I gave you how they're dragging their feet. Hey man, I think I was more concise than you were.
[00:53:23] Way more concise than you were. Okay, well, I'm a battle who's more concise. Audrey, we're getting near the end of this show. You've got a stupid hiring manager who doesn't know like you said time kills all deals and you want them to, you know,
[00:53:37] put a fan under that. How do you do that? It depends on the situation. I know you want some quick and fire answer from me, right? But it depends on the situation. I return to data. I know you think I'm crazy and boring with it,
[00:53:51] but I can back and say you're the problem. Here's how many days it's taking you or hey, here's the problem. Here's how many days it's taking that. And we figure out how to fix
[00:53:58] that. And if that means you have to, you know, it's not it's not about making decisions where the hurdles are, I don't feel like. And maybe Michael sees that differently when he was in corporate, but it's actually about just getting through the process fast enough,
[00:54:10] scheduling interviews fast enough, that type of stuff. So, okay, hold on. You said something very confrontational. You said to the hiring manager, you are the problem. Okay, that's I love that. I said that earlier. Would you actually say that you are the problem?
[00:54:27] I would as long as I had the data to back it up a hundred percent because you need to have those there's your own comfortable conversation, right? You have to have them.
[00:54:36] You have to have them. And it says you don't have to be attacking them when you say it. I know like it's that when you say it, it sounds like I'm attacking them, but you don't have to be
[00:54:43] attacking them if you just say here's where the problem is it is in your step of the process. Right? That's a little more passive. Here's where here's the bottleneck. Here's the bottleneck bills for some reason it happens right around this point. You idiot. You're wrecking everything.
[00:54:58] Can't you see it? Wake up. You don't call to the workshop though. That's going to get area code. Well, hold on if you're in some of those companies like Bridgewater, I think you can talk like that. Okay. And not only that they tape your conversation where
[00:55:12] you're scolding people and they make it available for everybody area code 815. Is that Kendra? Or you know, I'm just giving you the you can work, but I'll give you the opportunity to
[00:55:23] Ernie. I haven't come out with a question for her yet. I earnies one of the he's like Donna. He's like a male Donna. Okay, do you have the data? No, I've just been listening to show. I caught on late.
[00:55:38] Okay. I want to stop you before. Okay, but fine. I know. You know what, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
[00:55:46] what have I missed that you want to talk about? Is there anything like that, you know, uh, you know, A B testing of recruiting emails? What's up? Are there any subject lines that you love and stuff like that? Some little granular things you want to share.
[00:56:00] Is the hot dog a sandwich? There you go. That's what I'll leave you with. That's a good subject line for when you're doing your job. You pull in my leg. Are you know, there's recruiters who might use that. Are you
[00:56:11] saying that that's a possibility? I will. I may or may have or have not used that in my previous roles as a hands-on recruiter to try to get people's attention. But it's an interesting topic to bring up, you know. I like, I like it. It's a hot dog
[00:56:27] sandwich. And what would go with it in the body of, what would go in the body of the email? Oh, short and sweet. Here's our website. Check us out if you like the company. Come and talk,
[00:56:38] you know, short and sweet. I mean, I'm, I've been, I love it. Okay. You know, we just, so you know what, you have, you have to come back and I'll do some thinking. Okay. So I can corner you on what high volume recruiting. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.
[00:56:53] Really, really get into that corner. Yeah. I will prepare some high level, lofty answer that will really piss you off if that sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. I love it already. But I just want to tell everybody, you know, we're going to be on video permanently or for a
[00:57:08] while. If you, this is for Jerry. Okay. Jerry, I never wanted to go video. If you don't want to appear on video in your kitchen, I mean, you could just close your camera. We could still
[00:57:18] hear you. Okay. So I mean, it's not going to be an issue. I want to thank Donna. She's bold. She's a future guest for sure. Ernie's got to come back in the new year as a guest.
[00:57:28] Okay. I'm short of people and Michael G. Cox. He's a guest next week. We got to do some planning for that. Okay. Audrey, nice to meet you.
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