You’re not broken. The system is. | Laurie Ruettimann

[00:00:00] I was taught that most advice is projection. And now I think almost all communication is projection. Most of the people who sit in front of me and need career advice don't need advice. They just need a friend. It's someone who's been in the room and knows what's happening at the systems level say to them, it's not you. You're not broken. The system is broken. Laurie Ruettimann is a legendary writer, podcaster, executive coach, and keynote speaker.

[00:00:29] CNN named her one of America's top career advisors. Her LinkedIn learning courses have reached millions. And she's the author of Betting on You, a book about putting yourself first and taking back control of your career. She's built her following by saying the things most people in HR won't. Meg and I have adored Laurie for nearly 20 years. Today we discuss the importance of financial freedom to invent a life you can actually control, why she thinks we pin on AI,

[00:00:59] a pain that's really about issues like childcare, housing, and a missing safety net. And the honest question of whether any of the work has been worth it. Stay for the thank you notes she wrote after putting her beloved cat down. It tells you everything about how she sees the people who keep showing up to do the work. Welcome, Laurie. Laurie Ruettimann. Yay!

[00:01:29] Well, hello, friends. Boy, this is fun. Just kicking back, drinking Margs, you know, doing all the things right now. This is great. Oh, wait. No margaritas. Oh, is that what's in my... Is that what's in here? I didn't realize that. Yeah. That's awesome. Margs, creatine, they're kind of the same. It is lemony, I must admit. So, yes. My creatine cocktail, I call it. So, Laurie, what have you been up to these days? Well, funny you should ask, not a whole lot. It's summertime, and I generally kind of kick

[00:01:58] back during the summer and try not to spend all the money that I've squirreled away the other parts of the year. But not to be a total bummer, but I just euthanized a cat, which means I'm down to one cat in my household. And that's like so opposite of the brand that I've built over the years. I was going to say, how are you going to be a crazy cat lady with one cat? It's like a whole new world for me. My husband and I are like, this is so easy. We don't want to get any more animals. This is just... Really?

[00:02:29] They were all beautiful. Because you're loose and fancy free. You're ready to like go travel. Yeah. These animals were a joy in my life for all these years, but they also come at a cost just of our time and our attention. And our one cat, her name is Spicy. Spicy. She's terrific. She's like half a cat. She's so easy. So I think we're going to hang with Spicy for a while and see if we can live the single cat life and just be weird. Don't get me

[00:02:55] wrong. We're going to be weird with Spicy totally and like give her nicknames and sing to her. But one cat is just amazing. So yeah. That's what I think of when you have a cat named Spicy is you need a nickname for her. Yeah. Oh yeah. Got it. I mean, she's Spice Girl, Spice Machine, Spice. I mean, we've got all the names for her, but she's something else. So we're going to just try to enjoy the summer of spicy. That's great. Full on. You know, I'm a single child parent,

[00:03:21] not a single parent, but a single child parent. And I'm a big proponent of the single child. So enjoy. Yeah. Well, if your single child is like my single cat, they're weird, but they're great. Of course. Yeah. We're in full empty nest mode right now. Both kids are out of the house. Our dog lived a long and great life, but is with us no more. My husband and I are like enjoying our second youth of very

[00:03:50] self-absorbed, just do what we want to do. So. You know what? Middle age. It's terrific. I mean, I miss my animals, but middle age is awesome. Yeah. Got to be some perks to it. It's right. So Lori, I'm an avid follower of everything you write on LinkedIn, your posts and articles, but I have to admit that I had never actually read your book

[00:04:11] until this past week, betting on you. And I loved it. It was so good. And I can see all of the philosophies and everything that you laid out in there, how those come to life in your various posts and articles. And so thank you so much for sharing all of your stories. It's raw vulnerability and like juiciness.

[00:04:37] I can't recommend to everyone enough to pick up the book. One of the things that really struck me and as I was reading it was that you invented a life that you can control. So could you share a little bit about like the moment you realized that you weren't in control and that you weren't living the life that you wanted and like what took you to this completely different version of yourself?

[00:05:06] Well, first of all, thank you for the kind words. That means a lot to me. You know, you and Meg have been around in my life for nearly 20 years. And so it's just a joy that here we are today talking about this. At a very early part of my life, I worked in human resources and it was just not for me, man. I was not the kind of person I wanted to be. It was not living a life that I wanted to live. And I had this moment in an airport where everything was just going wrong for me.

[00:05:36] And I don't think that life is like a romance novel or a fantasy novel where you just have this one moment, a breakthrough and everything changes. But at that moment in the airport, when I had a sore back and my life was kind of weird and I was laying people off, I had this moment where I just realized that if I wanted a different outcome, I had to dance differently. And I didn't walk out of that airport thinking everything's going to change if I just make one or two big decisions. Instead,

[00:06:06] I started to take a little different path. I started to take these calculated risks where I would just say, okay, if direction A isn't working, I'm going to try direction B. Whether that was with my own individual well-being or with rest or with the way that I viewed the world of work. And when other people were zigging, I tried to zag and I suddenly started to realize that more of my life was within

[00:06:31] my control than I ever admitted. And that meant that a lot of the misery that I had ascribed to other people was actually unhappiness that I was participating in willingly. I just read Incorruptible, which is like a super interesting book about both long-term value creation and about having the sort of ethics and the purpose last longer than an individual lifespan. And there

[00:06:58] was a moment where he was talking about you can't be in traffic and not be traffic. And it really gets to the same thing you're saying, which is we're all part of the systems. And it's this moment where we have to realize our own agency and the choices we make. Now, there are constraints. We don't all have the same privilege to control all the pieces. But to your broader point, I think starting from asking

[00:07:27] the question, how am I contributing to my own happiness or not happiness, my own dissatisfaction or satisfaction, what agency do I have is so smart. So yeah, that's a big one. You know, I really had this moment at the airport where I thought, okay, if I just lost 20 pounds, things might be better. And if I just quit my job, things might be better. And then I started to kind

[00:07:52] of explore and investigate that pathway. And sure, life gets better when you invest in your own physical and mental well-being. Life gets better when you do work in a job that you enjoy. But life also gets better when you get eight hours of sleep. Life also gets better when you go to therapy or you start to tackle projects in your life that you've been ignoring. So it was about reengaging more with who I wanted to be and actually giving myself space to figure out who am I and what do I believe in

[00:08:22] that set the next path of my career for the next 25 years. So I worked at Pfizer in my late 20s and my early 30s, and I'm now 51 years old. And I've had many inflection points along the way where I thought I was doing great work. And then I kind of looked around and went, oh, no, wait, I can pivot, including during COVID, where I was keynoting and having this great life in 2019 and 2020. And then

[00:08:52] the pandemic hit. And I realized, oh, I need to get back to basics again. I had strayed a little bit too far from who I am and what I really think the right way of living is. What do you mean? You were getting too fancy? There was this point where my book came out in 2021. And I thought, all right, I'm on top of the world. I have a major book deal. I just launched a book with a major publisher.

[00:09:17] And even though the world was shut down, I was keynoting, I was delivering great virtual book talks. And yet at the end of that, I was so profoundly sad for the world and so hopeless and so lost. And I was on my couch at the end of some evenings drinking a bottle of champagne while having great success in my life. And it prompted me to explore, okay, what else is missing? Like what else is gone?

[00:09:42] And I had like no spiritual connection to anything. So I had a lot of other things dialed in, but I didn't really have a sense of purpose and a sense of being and a sense of belonging. And so I went back and started reading old classical texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Old Testament, as Christians call it, and the Torah and really found that there are these old classical stories about what it means to be a good

[00:10:11] person in the world. And I really reconnected spiritually to a lot of these old historic texts. And that I think really set the groundwork for what I feel now, which is just a connection with the universe and a sense of purpose like I've never felt before. I love that. I love that. And I'm curious, like as you were on this journey, and I'm guessing that

[00:10:36] you'd started to build towards it, what were the things that sort of sparked you to help you realize you were on the right path? Well, I talked about it, and that's something that I can't help but doing. And so when I would say, I'm lost, I'm confused, I don't know what to do, more and more people raised their hand and said, oh, I've been there or I felt this way. And here's my experience. I talk about in the book how I went

[00:11:00] to someone that I know deeply well in my old job. And I'm like, you are killing it. You're just doing all the right things. You're connected, you're getting promoted, yet you take your PTO. And he's like, yeah, but I'm a slacker. And he introduced me to the concept of doing less to doing more. People who say that they work 110%, number one, are full of it. And number two, are really only working

[00:11:25] 62%, but they're like caught up in emotional drama and enmeshment and connection. And he's like, I give my best 70 to 80%. And then I take my PTO. And it turns out just doing the bare minimum gets you by. And doing a little extra is actually the secret sauce, but avoiding burnout, avoiding emotional connection to things that are ultimately going to let you down. Boy,

[00:11:51] that's the secret to really succeeding in corporate America. So just in having these honest conversations with people, I learned little tips, I learned little tricks, but I also learned that vulnerability pays dividends. Another point that you had made around that, which really resonated with me, is the concept of financial freedom, right? And for me, I know that

[00:12:14] once I realized that I had reached financial freedom, I was able to have much better detachment to my work. I could still enjoy it. I still cared about the people. I still cared about the business. I still cared about the quality of the work. But in terms of feeling suffocated or feeling like having like a panic attack, because everything is so important. And you're just so wrapped around the

[00:12:42] axle about the outcomes, being able to have that bit of levity was so important. And I know you talked about this concept in the book as well, Lori, someone telling you, well, you just need to, you just need to budget, Lori. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were saying that from the day. How do you balance the giving advice and feedback to people how to get financially free,

[00:13:09] but not be obnoxious about... Telling them they can't have avocado toast or a coffee, right? Well, I just want to be on record saying that before boomers were lecturing millennials and Gen Z, they were lecturing Gen X. And they were saying things to me like, why can't you stick to a budget? And if only you didn't drag clean your clothes, like crazy stuff like that. While also these

[00:13:34] boomers getting benefits like a car allowance and travel allowances and living in cities where they don't even pay the rent, right? They've got one home, but they're always in New York and it's paid for by the corporation. So that stuff doesn't fly with me. And just like when I was younger, today, we have a real crisis around financial fragility. So I will never lecture anybody about

[00:13:59] their income or how much they spend because most of America is financially fragile. What I will say is you should not spend any money to work if you can avoid it. Like get your five pieces of clothing and wear them over and over again. Style them differently. Accessorize them differently. But do what you can to minimize how much you spend at work. If you don't have to go out for drinks with

[00:14:25] your coworkers, don't do it. And if you want to do it, be financially sensible about it. There are millions of ways that you should and you can cut corners when it comes to spending money on work. But I think many of us, and I know I did, get caught in the trap of having to spend money to look like we're successful. And I'm here to tell you, no one notices but you. Now there are biases that people

[00:14:52] have in the workforce against women and people of color. And yes, those are all very true. But if you can, be ruthlessly cheap where you can. So if you do have to spend money to accommodate for those biases, you have the money available. Work is a sucker's game and nobody comes out of it ahead unless you're part of the owner's class. So don't participate unless you absolutely have to. That's my advice.

[00:15:18] One of the things I love about you, Lori, is that you have a real clarity of the systems of work and the power structures of work. But you also have a grounding in what does it mean for the people really doing the work. And I think a lot of times when people get to our level of experience, it's easy

[00:15:42] to forget what it's like to be early in your career or to be poor or to be just starting out or getting a lot of missed signals. And one of the things I love about you is not only how you stay grounded, but your perspective is truly focusing on making things better for others. Did this always come for you? Or is this something that you cultivate to try to really remember what does it feel like

[00:16:12] to be in these different positions? I will say that the circumstances of my life growing up were not always the easiest. And I do not come from money. I do not come from generational wealth. And I'm not surrounded by people in my family who have access to capital, who have access to education, who have access to the things that I somehow stumbled my way into through oftentimes sheer luck and being

[00:16:39] fortunate. So it doesn't take a lot for me to look around my own world and remember what it's like to struggle to pay a cell phone bill, to struggle to pay a utility bill, because so many in my family still have that experience today. I'm also constantly reminded of factors like ageism, just because I'm 51 years old. I am now suffering from that in a weird place in my life. So I think if you're

[00:17:05] naturally empathetic, you can look around and you can feel this way. But I will also tell you, I read a ton. And I think the secret sauce to anybody being a smarter, better, more empathetic person in the world is to read and to read outside of your industry. I read about geopolitics. I know what's happening to the Uyghurs in China. I know what's happening in Sudan. I know what's happening to people on the ground in Venezuela through multiple perspectives and reporting. I read historical

[00:17:35] fiction. I read current fiction, right? I'm constantly trying to go out into the world and engage it a little bit differently. So it is true that I have my blind spots and I have my own biases, but I work really hard to overcome them. And I think that's just the challenge of being a good person in this world. So if that's what I do, to try to have a perspective, to be able to talk to people and also to listen to their stories. I really think we need more of that. I'm also a reader and I came across something

[00:18:03] recently that resonated with me, obviously. So Amy and I both have kids that are in college, entering the workforce and facing some of this real time, both themselves and their friends and people they went to school with. And one of the things that I read was that the advice that made sense for us when we were starting out in our jobs doesn't work today. It doesn't work the same because the work

[00:18:31] experience is not the same and the market is not the same. And as I started reflecting on that, then I also realized that most of the advice I've read over the years about careers and about business also don't work for women and they don't work for people of color the same because they're written from the tactics that worked for a cohort that got into power and the majority of that cohort was male.

[00:19:00] There's something really important about both reminding ourselves that our experience isn't universal but also doing the work, as you say, to try to understand what's happening in different contexts for different people. And I wonder if this is going to get harder for most of us as we start to see the sort of collapse of reporting and the acceleration of people getting just wanting the sound bites as

[00:19:29] opposed to wanting to do the work and to do the reading. What do you think is the trick to helping others see why that is a worthwhile investment? When I first learned how to be an executive coach, I was taught that most advice is projection. And now I think almost all communication is projection.

[00:19:51] It's very rare when people listen and sit back and take a moment and respond to what's being communicated to us and actually engage and have a conversation. It's very rare, very rare. And so in this world right now, when I give advice, when I write, when I talk, when I deliver a keynote, I try to at first, at least listen to what's being asked of me. What are the requests? What do people need?

[00:20:20] And then thoughtfully deliver something that's relevant to that audience. So it's very rare that I give the same advice twice. I give the same keynote twice because every person in front of me is different. And I think it gets to the heart of something that, you know, tech executives have talked about for many, many years. It's personalization, right? Personalization is about sitting and

[00:20:45] listening. It's not about anticipating, but it's really understanding the individual, the organization, the enterprise in front of you. And before you make any sort of assumption, before you jump in with a solution that's been scaled to 15 other different organizations, truly understand what this person needs in front of you. So in my coaching work, I rarely give advice anymore. Most of the time,

[00:21:10] it's either listening or coming up with an action plan that we collaborate on. In fact, most of the people who sit in front of me and need career advice don't need advice. They just need a friend. They need a big sister. They need someone who's been in the room and knows what's happening at the systems level say to them, it's not you. You're not broken. The system is broken. And so in that way,

[00:21:34] I'm kind of doing what I did in HR all those years ago, and it was misplaced in HR. I'm going, yeah, yeah, yeah. The company has a POV, but it doesn't mean that it's right. And the feelings you have, the experience that you have is more than just valid. It's correct. And you have every right to feel the way you do. And sometimes just doing that work, that's enough. And then if I have any

[00:21:59] ideas about action, I'm happy to deliver them. But just witnessing this moment, I think is the real challenge for leaders and just for ordinary human beings who are good people. Yeah. I mean, the listening part is huge. The thing though that I would say, and which really comes through in your writing, Lori, is that you share examples of things that you've been through.

[00:22:24] And so you're role modeling advice rather than giving advice, right? You're saying like, when this happened to me, this is what I did. Or when I had this opportunity, this is how I, you know what I mean? And so you're not saying outright, this is what you should do. But just making people aware of what's possible, I think is really powerful because people don't necessarily

[00:22:50] always know what's possible. I would push back and say that a lot of the advice today that's given is misplaced and outdated, but a lot of really good wisdom is timeless. And so when I sit down with someone who's early to mid-career and think about a plan to make an impact and to find a job and to go work somewhere that they're very passionate about, it's really about relationship building,

[00:23:19] connection, doing that deep, meaningful work of mining your network. And if it doesn't exist, trying to mine the networks of other people who mean something to that organization. And I have placed several people through the act of volunteering and not just rando volunteering, but go start to volunteer at an organization where your target company makes an investment, where they actually do their

[00:23:46] philanthropic work through. Spend some time there. Not only will you meet people potentially from that organization, but now you have something on your resume that's meaningful. And so really starting to think creatively about who do you know? Who knows someone? Because what's true today was true 20 years ago and 30 years ago. Regardless of what technology we have, people get hired based on who they know,

[00:24:12] if they're liked and if the person across from them feels like they can trust them enough that they're not going to sue the organization. So these elements are all about the biases in humankind. So let's make those biases work to our advantage. So volunteering is one great way to do that. And I've got concrete examples of people who've made that work. And it's playing a long game, but maybe not as long

[00:24:37] as you think. So you're right. I try to take real world practical advice and serve it up to people who need it at that moment. Volunteering is a great use of time if you're unemployed or interested in a new field, but it's also great for your soul, right? It builds energy as opposed to taking energy and it gives you a sense of community and giving back. But you taking it one step further and being thoughtful

[00:25:06] about how to get into the rooms that are going to elevate your chance of luck and the serendipity that you need to find either a new job or to make a broader and deeper network. And for those of us that are less inclined to be super extroverted or we don't really enjoy going into new places too much,

[00:25:31] volunteering is a space where you're also given something to do and having something to do while meeting other people takes a lot of the pressure away. Are you an extrovert, Lori? Well, I'm going to tell you both something. I don't believe in introversion and extroversion. I don't. Hot take. Yeah, here's my hot take on this. Over a hundred years ago, Carl Jung came up with this philosophical

[00:25:53] idea of extroversion and introversion. And what he was trying to say is that both exist in nature, in human nature. And it's not that you're one or you're the other. Extroversion means that you find it profoundly difficult to be alone with your own thoughts. And introversion means that you find it profoundly difficult to some degree to be in other people's experiences. And it's not that you're one or the other.

[00:26:21] The goal of life is to be in balance. So now we have modern philosophers and psychologists who stick people under fMRIs, which are not reliable and valid forms of research. And they say, oh, this part of your brain lights up means you're an introvert. And this part means you're an extrovert. When all of this was just built on Carl Jung, who believed in the collective unconscious, not that he wasn't tapping into something profoundly human, but it was just a philosophy that he had that was unproven and unvalidated.

[00:26:51] I am also a Capricorn. I am also in the Chinese astrological signs. I am a wood tiger. My Enneagram is eight. What does any of this mean? Right? I think the goal of life is not to be one thing or the other, but the goal of life is to find balance. And so when people say I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert, I'm like, good, but does it make you happy? Are you functioning at the level you want to function at?

[00:27:21] Because I will hear from people, I'm an extrovert. I can't possibly network. I'm like, who the hell loves to network? And if they love networking, it's because they're trying to be away from their own brain. It is really a profoundly unhelpful way to think about life. And I'm not buying into it and I'm not going to let people push that on me. So am I an introvert? Am I an extrovert? Are you going to flip me the finger for my question? No, I'm not.

[00:27:52] Sorry to go off on a rant. F you, Amy, in your stupid question. Yeah, I know. I'm the one that flips the finger. No, no, no, no. I don't mean that at all. I really love the idea of people getting to know themselves greater, but not for the sake of just looking at their own belly button. I want them to look at themselves a little bit deeper and go, am I happy? Am I doing okay? Am I helpful? Am I productive in this world? Am I getting closer to my goals? When I die, am I going to be proud of the life that I lived or am I going to regret

[00:28:20] not going to a networking event that could have introduced me to someone terrific like Amy or Meg or Lori Rudiman, who really didn't want to be there anyway, but would have loved to have met you. So don't let these labels get in the way of living a big life. So speaking of giving the finger, just because that's a perfect segue. So way back when,

[00:28:41] when you left your nice paying benefit laden HR career and you became a blogger amongst other things, you developed a brand of punk rock HR. And now in addition to that, you've added kind of, I tell the truth about work, which fits right in there. We are wondering a little bit about how do you develop a brand? How do you keep it going? And even more importantly, your brand is about being

[00:29:12] outspoken. And we know that you get a lot of haters and a lot of pushback on yourself, your ideas, all of these things. And we want to understand your strategies and like how you deal with that. Well, thank you for assuming that there was a strategy behind any of this and all of it. We just want to be like you, Lori. Well, you know, there's a fine line between poor and punk. So as I look back at my early life,

[00:29:39] I'm like, was I just poor? Did I just dress terribly? Like, was that part of it? And the answer is, yeah. I mean, among the terrible, you know, music that I listened to, part of it was just that I didn't have access to rooms that afforded me opportunities. But as I started to spend time around people, especially in college, and I realized that I had to clean up my act in order to make money, I put a lot of that away. And so I spent over a decade not like admitting that I like old school

[00:30:08] punk rock music or admitting to the fact that I had tattoos and piercings. I covered a lot of that up. It was survival mode. And the more financial freedom I have to the earlier point around money, the more I was able to be a little bit more vulnerable and a little bit more authentic. It's very difficult to be authentic when you're poor. You mostly just have to pay your bills. And I had student loans to pay and I was still early in my career, right? So the more financial

[00:30:34] freedom I got, the more I could just be myself, which is not a brand strategy. But in a world where so many people are looking to have a brand, I've kind of got the opposite of it, which gets dismissed a lot. Like a lot of people will take one look at me and say, oh, what does she know? But I think I do best when I'm maybe misunderstood or underestimated. I can go into a room and speak eloquently about HR technologies. I know I can. I've done it for

[00:31:03] years. I can go into a room and speak about economic policy. I can go into a room and speak about geopolitical substances and do just fine. But for whatever reason, being early to social media and speaking my mind has sometimes worked against me. And in a lot of ways, I'm still dealing with that and thinking about that because there are moments where I walk into a room and someone's

[00:31:29] like, that's who you are. Yeah. OK. OK, punk rock HR. And I don't know. It's kind of depressing. So in some ways, like I'm really grateful for all the opportunities I've had to, quote unquote, build a brand. And in other ways, I'm like, what is this? Even I don't know what it is. So people are expecting you to be more punk and you show up and you're like this cute, petite, blonde woman. And they're like, where's the punk? Is that what you're saying? I come into a room and they're like, you don't look punk rock. And I'm like, well,

[00:31:58] I'm like a middle aged lady now. I don't know what to tell you. In some ways, I've been incredibly limited by it. And I haven't quite reached a level where I can just walk into a room and be. When there are haters in my life, I do one of two things. I either ignore them or I play with it and I have fun with it. So I do get a lot of messages from mostly men, but sometimes women who are like,

[00:32:26] who do you think you are? Are you punk rock HR? I don't believe it. Or how dare you say this? Or you're not saying enough of something or just calling me all sorts of slurs. I get that as well. And so I do make a decision. Either I'm going to ignore it and not spend too much time with it. Or I'm going to put it out there and I'm going to play with it. And you've probably seen some of that in my career. I don't take it too seriously because I know how the people close to me feel about me. They either love me or they tell me to work on my shit. You know, like the people who

[00:32:55] are in my circle and have my back really have my back. And so that when the hate mail starts to come in or the dismissive comments on LinkedIn, I'm like, okay, yeah, whatever. And if worse comes to worse, just block it. It's been a journey. It's been an evolution, but I just, I try not to take it too seriously because the only thing that really matters is do the people around me love me? Am I helpful? And can I pay my bills? And the answer is yes to all of the above.

[00:33:22] So my theory about the other part of the conversation, which is showing up and people are either underestimating you or engaging in sort of a weird way. I just have a suspicion that this kind of behavior is as much about being awkward as it is about having a point of view. I think a lot of times

[00:33:45] people try to figure out how to make some sort of connection and it goes terribly awkward. The natural inclination to ask you something about the punk rock moniker is tied to that. One of the things that I've come to learn is oftentimes when I'm in a position of power in a technical role, people will

[00:34:12] start out trying to tell me how they got an engineering degree, but now do something else or know something technical. They feel like they have to have some point of connection or tension in that first interaction. And I just wonder if that happens for men. I really do because it feels just it happens so awkwardly for women, whether you're in a position of power or you're in a position of

[00:34:36] service, like whatever it is, I feel like people don't have a natural way to treat you walking in the space that you're there to hold. Well, I really love that. And I think it's very generous. And I think it's probably true to a large extent. I mean, I'm awkward as all get out, you know, so I'm sure there have been many times where people have been like, what was she talking about? And what was she trying to say? But I will

[00:35:04] also say the amount of emotional labor that I do to try to understand people and forgive people in this role of Lori Rudiman, punk rock HR is exhausting. And I have felt moments of burnout in my career because I can't post a photo without people commenting on my body or making weird statements

[00:35:29] about it or using it inappropriately. Or my very favorite thing is when I'm put on an influencer list from a brand that I've never heard of. And they use a photo of me that's a little cute and a little, I wouldn't even say spicy, I'm like in a tank top. And then they're using everybody else's professional headshots. They just grab something off the internet that is clearly not meant to be used

[00:35:54] in a professional way. So now I have this rule that if I'm included in an influencer list and I don't like the photo, I ask them to take it down. The amount of scary comments I've had in my career is something I don't like to talk about too publicly, but it happens. And it's just, it's a strange thing. And sometimes I think I gave up a 401k for this. So I don't understand why I did this, but I think it's just the way the universe wanted me to be helpful.

[00:36:21] There are so many of us that find your ability to figure out how to respond really helpful. I don't know if you realize just how much you have given to all of us to not only help us figure out maybe what else we could try, but also to give us a little bit of inspiration to be more brave and to be more

[00:36:45] authentic. We are not just long-term fans, but have been seeing you as a role model for how to show up online and also not take any shit. It really means a lot to us. I really appreciate that. And I say this sincerely, like I know that I make an individual difference, but the biggest heartbreak in my career is that for all the years I've been on the planet, the world of work is worse. For all of my efforts, for all of everything I've done,

[00:37:13] all of the things that I've sacrificed, it's worse. Technology has not made it better. In fact, every time there's a new company trying to fix a problem, you can draw a line to how much worse it's going to be in five years, right? People are rethinking payroll. They're rethinking onboarding. They're rethinking offboarding, but they're not really rethinking what it means to work. And for all the really hard effort that I've put in to have these conversations,

[00:37:42] what people remember is that I have a lot of cats or I have tattoos. I just don't know how helpful overall I've been. And I can't say that I know it's worth it because I don't know that my work has been worth it. I'm going to cry if I'm being totally honest. So that's why it's really important for me to go live an interesting, happy life and volunteer and go on vacation and spend time with my

[00:38:07] friends and have hobbies and do crafts. Because if I just look at the total result of the work that I've done, I don't know that I've made a difference for anybody. Changing entire work systems is a lot. Yeah, I'm not going to do that. I know that. But I do think that you have made a big difference

[00:38:30] in workers' ability to have agency in their lives. And that is a big part of the system. I can't speak to everyone, but the people who read your work and listen to you and pay attention to what you're saying, they're getting a lot more agency and confidence to live their life better. And that is a

[00:38:59] huge impact, Lori. I, again, I respect it and I honor it. But if I identify too closely with it, it'll still break my heart. My ultimate goal is to make sure that everybody can eat and they're housed and they're educated and they're living a well-rounded life. I want to make a difference. And in this world of work tech and HR tech, the systems are just stacked against anybody with a really good idea around

[00:39:29] rethinking the basic functionality of work because there's so much money already in like rethinking payroll, rethinking the employee experience, rethinking what it means to just be a supervisor and a manager that I know is unrealistic for me to say, what about universal basic income and what about all these other things and really make a difference? But I need to try, but I feel like

[00:39:54] Sisyphus. And sometimes that grind is real for me. So in that I'm out there on LinkedIn telling people don't identify closely with your job because it'll break your heart. I know this to be true because it breaks my heart every single day. You got to listen to yourself. I know, I know, I know, which is why I'm like, hey, when's our next vacation? Or let me run another marathon. I got to do something because if I only ever thought about how people are mistreated at work and actually how leaders in mistreating others,

[00:40:23] even if they don't know it, are causing suffering to themselves, like if I thought about this, God, it would keep me up at night. It does keep me up at night, but I've got to get some sleep. So just a quick note on the whole UBI thing. So I don't know if you caught that. I mean, it's been many months now, but Amy Webb at South by Southwest, like the very end of her amazing presentation, she talked about digital dividends. And that seems to be getting a little

[00:40:51] bit of traction now. Is there hope here? What do you think, Gloria? Well, there has to be hope because otherwise what's the point, right? The idea of digital dividends, taxing AI transactions, because the amount of wealth that's going to be created by AI more than accommodates a very slight, tiny tax on those transactions or rethinking government programs, all of this kind of ebbs and flows. And it seems like we're in a period of time where people are

[00:41:20] actually open to rethinking this. But we were in a period of time during COVID where we were rethinking where we work. And now over half the Fortune 500 companies are mandating a return to office. So I don't know. I don't know. I mean, we're in a period of time where whether it's digital dividends or some sort of government payout might be okay. But where will we be in five years? I have no idea. But I'm still going to try to fight for this. And I'm still going to try to be on the right side of

[00:41:50] history. Because what other choice do I have? I'm Sisyphus. I'm rolling the damn rock, right? You know, but I'm not doing it alone. And I think that's like, the thing that's so beautiful to me in middle age, like for all of like the existential ennui that I have, right? It's not just me. I volunteer at an organization called ITSA, which is really all about universal basic income, making sure that people have a dividend to live. And it's not just me at the helm of this. It's not

[00:42:19] even my idea, right? I work with beautiful people like Scott Santens and Conrad and like people on the board who are doing really, really amazing work to make this happen. And even if it doesn't happen, well, I got to spend time with really cool people who are just killing it. And they're fun and they're interesting. So that's worthwhile too. So I know I had a moment of despair on your podcast, but I'm not usually that vulnerable, but I'm also having a lot of fun. So like it's cool.

[00:42:49] I'm a little bit of a fangirl of Anthropic. And I noticed that your very good friend Lars Schmidt is now at Anthropic. Is there hope that like Anthropic is going to be this incorruptible, actually redefining HR? Is there any hope? Come on, give me some more hope, Laurie. I don't know. You know, years ago, I got super excited on Microsoft and LinkedIn, right? And look

[00:43:17] at them now. They're just like any other company. So I don't know. Are they better than Palantir? Or like what's the standard here? I don't know. Yeah, I do say that I like some of the things that come out of Anthropic more than I like out of some other organizations. But again, we're in a society, it's not even capitalism, because we're in a society where owners are rewarded. So there's no fair market,

[00:43:44] there's no free market. If you've got capital, and you're sitting at the top of a big pile of cash, you get to make some really big decisions for society. Do I hope that Dario does the right thing? Like, yeah, sure. Okay. But he would have to fight tens of thousands of years of human programming to be the one guy. And his team would have to be the team that is different than all of human behavior leading up to this point. Do I think they can do it? Dario and Daniela, though. Yeah, that's right.

[00:44:13] Dario and Daniela, the team, the co-team. But thank you for giving credit. But do I think that they can do it? I hope so. But I'm going to go eat ice cream after this and pretend like I didn't weigh in on this because I don't have any real good insight. Speaking of sadness, so you give advice and support for people who have lost their job. And certainly that there's a lot of that that's happening in the world right now. But there's

[00:44:43] another interesting angle to that that that Megan and I have been exploring. And we want to get your thoughts on this. And it's not like actually losing the job. You might still be employed, but what are you are expected to do has changed dramatically. And they're losing maybe a sense of self. And we believe are going through perhaps a grieving process. I just was wondering if this is

[00:45:08] something that you've thought about and how should leaders and HR departments be approaching this concept of grief right now? Well, leaders and HR professionals forget that they are employees, too. Something I talk about all the time, right? Sometimes when you're a leader, you're an executive or you're in HR, you think you're like an employee, but you're something different. You occupy a different strata. And that's not true.

[00:45:33] Unless you're an owner or an officer, you're really an employee. And I think it's really important for HR departments and leaders right now to stop thinking that change is happening to others and start being more honest about the change that is happening to them as well. And so I'll often get questions like, oh, my team, the morale is down and things are changing and we've had some layoffs.

[00:45:59] How do I re-inspire people? Well, why don't you re-inspire yourself? If you can take a look at your life and fix one or two micro things that are a little off or a little weird or a little strange in your own life, you have positive downstream effects for your entire team and really for the enterprise. So for all the change that is happening, the number one thing I hear from working parents

[00:46:26] isn't about AI. It's about the cost of child care. So why are we attributing all of this grief to AI when there's a child care crisis, an affordability crisis, affordable housing crisis, gas prices are up, fuel prices are up, right? Like if we start to think about these things within our control and what we can do to have honest conversations about how they're impacting us and how they're impacting others

[00:46:50] and also the policy changes that we can make that would benefit the organization, maybe that AI thing will still be scary, but it won't be as scary because we're fixing some of the other things at the fringes. A job isn't just a job with skills and knowledge and all the things that we attribute it. It's your welfare contract, right? It's your retirement. It's your health insurance, at least here in

[00:47:16] America. It's how you make a difference in the world. It's oftentimes when you're divorced, how you pay your child support, right? So there are all these things that make up a job. And if we can start fixing some of the things that are broken there, the AI concern doesn't always be this really big, huge, crazy concern. What do you think about that? There was just a Near Times article about how

[00:47:41] the U.S. was far more pessimistic about AI than the rest of the economically advantaged countries, and it's because everything is so wrapped up in a job. And so when you are at risk of losing your job, you're losing everything. There's no social safety net. And what you just said I thought was really

[00:48:04] interesting is like how we wrap our identity into the job maybe more than other countries too because of that. Yeah, we have to. We have to. Absolutely. If you don't have a job in Portugal or in Spain, you still have a different kind of community. You have a different lifestyle around. But if you don't have a job here in America, you maybe don't have friends, which is why so many people retire and feel

[00:48:32] a sense of grief and feel a sense of loneliness because suddenly their best friends who they talk to every single day are no longer part of the fabric of their lives. I don't think we have enough honest conversations about what a job means here in America. And then we throw AI into this conversation and it looks like AI is the baddie. And let's be real, AI could be a baddie, right? You know, but there are other things that we could be focusing on and working on, which is why

[00:49:01] I tell people we fix work by fixing ourselves first. Like if you're in a leadership position and you're struggling with child care, what does that mean for the frontline workers of your organization, right? And there are policy changes that could be made if you could develop your persuasive skills, if you could tell a different story, if you can commit to looking at data differently to maybe shift the perspective of the organization to think about these things differently. So if you have

[00:49:31] affordable child care problems at work, I think it's time to maybe take an executive communication class or really think about looking at data differently. There are things you can do in HR to start to make the case for change. Love that. Love that. Very empowering. To your broader point, it may not solve the entire problem, but it certainly will make a difference in places that there is some suffering that is very acute right

[00:49:59] now. We keep circling around this topic of work identity and meaning throughout this conversation. We've talked about it a lot of different ways, and there are a lot of reasons why so many people like find so much meaning in work. I'm actually not entirely against it, because if you've done it right, you can solve really important problems for people and for society and do it in a way that just

[00:50:24] feels real good. And you're willing to put up with like the administrative nonsense to get it done. So I just told you at the beginning of the conversation that I recently euthanized my cat, Roxy, and I sat down and wrote a note to every single vet and clinic that ever provided her services and said, thank you for investing in you. Thank you for coming to work when it was tough. Thank you for putting up with all the corporate shenanigans. My vet just was recently acquired by private

[00:50:53] equity. I know what they're going through. And yet they come to work every day and gave exceptional care to Roxy. And I don't know what else to do except say thank you and drop off donuts. But I recognize how extraordinarily difficult it is. But because they came to work, Roxy got an extra six months on her life. It's just amazing that people are willing to put up with what they do on a daily

[00:51:17] basis to do the work that needs to be done. And I think as long as I'm on this planet, I'm going to work really hard to lift that load and ease that load for them so that they never come to work. And the reason why they're in a crappy mood is because payroll didn't deliver on their paychecks, right? I'm going to work real hard to make sure that payroll works. I'm going to make sure that they don't

[00:51:43] get a terrible rating and they don't understand it, right? Like these are the little things that I can do so that they can be geniuses in veterinary care. It's the least I can do. So I don't know that that's my why, but that's part of what I do and I'm okay doing it. Every episode, Lori, we take a dilemma from a listener. And we were wondering if you would care to join us for this leadership corner.

[00:52:11] I would love it. It's like what I'm excited the most about. So yeah, let's do it. So we're going to get real practical here. Okay, here is the question. I've been with my company for six years and have been promoted four times during that time. The company is restructuring and my role no longer exists. Should I accept a lesser role or push for a package? Well, I hate the binary choice.

[00:52:40] So I hate it. Why not do both? Why not say, you know, I'm willing to be helpful for a certain period of time, but the terms and conditions of my employment changed and I would also like a severance package. So be helpful, agree on an exit date, but it doesn't have to be in 90 days. It could be six months from now, right? Give yourself a little bit of a runway to find good and meaningful work

[00:53:06] and time it so that you can accept that next role when that package finally is delivered. So that's what I would do. That's what I would say. Like all of this is negotiable. So don't just think because you have two options. Those are the only two options. Try to figure out a way to extend that lesser period. And you know what? In that lesser period, go make connections. Go try to learn something new. If there are educational benefits or a course that you can take or a certification you can get,

[00:53:32] go do that, but make that time worth it for both your employer, do it with dignity, but also for you, but also go get that money, go get that severance package and make sure that you negotiate your COBRA coverage in that as well. Because just because your date of employment ends at a specific date doesn't mean that they can't also contribute to paying your COBRA down the road as well. So in fact, call me, call me and we'll talk about it. So yeah. Awesome. Love it. I love it. What do you guys think?

[00:54:02] I had a similar, like it doesn't have to be binary, but I was kind of headed in a slightly different direction. This is what happens when you also have, you know, lived a long time and seen these kinds of reorganizations and restructures. So I think it is worth it to ask yourself a few more questions about what is that lesser job and what is the probability that it is a permanent place or that there's

[00:54:31] multiple seats happening over this next period of time, because you're not the only one that's asking that question about the lesser job and do I stay or do I go? Lots of people are. So when there's a restructure, there's often a lot of moving seats and sometimes those moving seats can be real opportunities. So I would ask myself a few additional questions. Sometimes taking a lesser role while you watch to see who's staying and going and pick out the next seat could be like a nice little paid vacation

[00:55:01] that you don't have to work as hard and you can keep your head up and figure out where do you really want to go next if that is the kind of organization that that reality might persist. So I think Lori's answer is right on if it truly is. This is the entire future and there's no other roles showing up. But if it's a large organization and there's a lot of moving seats, sometimes waiting that six months

[00:55:28] to see where everything lands before you then negotiate the package could also give you more optionality. So being clear about what is really happening, not just what they're selling to you as your next role, I think is the way I would look at it as well. So good. I was really kind of on team package, but probably with too short of a runway, especially in considering what you were saying, Lori, I think

[00:55:56] that that makes a lot of sense to really push for more runway and be able to sniff things out a little bit. But this particular person is mid-career, but still fairly early, right? I mean, they have a long term career ahead of them. So for me, I would think it would be, oh, and this is projecting, right?

[00:56:18] To your point, it's worth a little bit of a risk, you know, to push yourself to go do something bigger, the next thing, right? And not like, I just, I don't like the idea of accepting that I'm lesser just because that's what's available to me. I don't like how that would make me feel. And I wouldn't

[00:56:44] want that. I wouldn't want this person to feel that way. So for me, I would say it's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be scary. It's going to be potentially less lucrative in the short term, but in the long term, you're going to overcome all of this and you're going to have more confidence

[00:57:06] and thrive as a result. Also wise and so well said, I think about Eleanor Roosevelt a lot, and she's got this one quote where she said, nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. Yeah, that is so true. And I think about like all the rando jobs people have had in my family

[00:57:28] to like get stuff done, to make rent. And when someone says to me, I was a P5 manager and now they want me to be a P4 manager. I'm like, okay, right? Like what is a lesser job? Is it less of a title? Is it less money? Exactly what are we talking about here? So sometimes these delineations we make between roles and responsibilities are just, I mean, they're all made up anyway. So maybe we can

[00:57:57] find a way to not feel lesser while in a lesser job, at least for a period of time. And Amy, to your point, we want to be learning and growing because when we're learning and growing, we're really thriving. And that's the point of life. So make sure that if you are in that lesser role, you're pushing towards something else. So the other thing that I would add, my usual mantra of what's the worst that could happen. And I thought about this a little bit in your book, you talk about the premortem.

[00:58:25] And this is kind of a version of that. But in particular, like I think it's really good to imagine the worst and then move backward from assume that that's going to happen and then work backwards from there. And maybe that's a little too pessimistic, but I don't think it is because it's really not that bad once you realize, OK, well, what's the worst that can happen? I don't find a job for two years. And then the job that's offered to me is half the pay.

[00:58:54] How can I live that way? How can I survive? Work all the way through it so that you know that even if you're in the worst, you know, the worst possible nadir that it's all going to be OK. That's one of my mantras. I love it. You mentioned earlier on that the advice today that we give to young folk may not apply. But I will tell you the concerns that middle-aged people have today were the concerns that middle-aged people had 20 years ago that I was listening to. And they're probably the concerns

[00:59:24] middle-aged people will have moving forward. Am I going to be homeless? Is my partner going to leave me? Can I provide for my kids? Is anybody going to go hungry? Can I make sure my dog can get their rabies vaccine? Like these are all very serious, important things. But human behavior and human concerns are pretty predictable. And so when someone says to me, I'm worried about being homeless,

[00:59:50] I'm like, when in your history have you ever let it get so bad? Most people, when facing long-term unemployment, don't let themselves go bankrupt. They will do what it takes to make sure that they find some work, meaningful or not, to get their kids into hockey pads. They will do it. I just, I want to push back that if you're concerned about being homeless, let's work this out. And at what point with your

[01:00:16] finances will you have to take a job that pays 50%, right? Will you have to take a job that is absolutely not what you want to do? But up until that point, let's not freak out too much about it. We're going to plan to get you in the room with people who will like, know, and trust you. So I love worst case scenario planning, thinking as long as we're planning and we're not just spiraling. And that's what the pre-mortem allows you to do. And if you do it, you improve your chance of success by over 30%.

[01:00:45] That's pretty good. Pretty good. Nice. All right. Now I have data behind my mantra. I love it. Thanks for validating me, Lori. Of course. That's what I'm here to do. I'm here to tell you you're both smart and beautiful and I admire you both and I just want to be you when I grow up. And so thanks for, thanks for doing it right. I love and admire the work that you've both done, both within enterprise and also in your, and I'm going to use this word, in your thought leadership.

[01:01:12] Nobody thinks like the two of you, both individually and connected. And I just admire you both for different reasons, but together you're a powerhouse and you set an example for people who really want to make a difference and can think critically about the world of work. I just, I just admire it so much. So thank you for doing the work that you do. Thank you so much, Lori. Thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate you joining and we are so grateful. So any way that we can ever be helpful,

[01:01:40] please know we're your fans for life. Meg, well, that was such a delight. We have been adoring Lori for years and she is kind of like our podcast role model, I would say. So it was just so great to, to have one of our idols on the show at last. What a joy, but also did you notice Amy, she was giving us like a live demonstration about how to be a

[01:02:08] good podcaster and how to summarize things and bring us back to the point. I was like, oh, we're supposed to come back to the point? I had no idea. That was part of this. I thought we were supposed to move on to the next point. Oh, okay. Summarization. What a great, what a great idea. We should consider doing that. So once again, Laurie Ruettimann showing us the way. So much passion, so much care and yeah.

[01:02:34] Humanity, right? Like just, just really human, which obviously speaks to me as well. We're just so lucky to do this, Amy. Think about this. We are really lucky to be able to invite people on the show and have conversations we want to have. I don't know about you, but this gives me more joy than I expected it. A lot more work, but definitely more joy as well. So I guess like anything, it's part of the journey of discovery

[01:03:02] and learning and I'm grateful to be on it with you. So thank you, Amy Wilson, for helping us get this podcast thing going. Thank you, Meg Bear, and happy birthday month. Yay! Yay, my birthday. All the good things are happening. So let's invent the future together, everyone. I believe in us. Let's make every day count.