HR, We Have a Problem - The stakes have never been higher for HR…fostering meaningful change, building C-suite level trust, and bridging the gaps.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the HR Huddle Podcast presented by Sapient Insights Group, the ultimate resource for all things HR. It's time to get in the huddle.

[00:00:30] This is the show where we break down the big and most relevant HR issues of the day. We help you make sense of what they mean for you.

[00:00:42] And we talk about what you might do about them. Joining me today is Malika Jacobs, CEO and founder of Merriott, and our own chief research officer, Stacey Harris. Welcome ladies. Great to catch up with you.

[00:00:57] Hey everyone. It's great to see everyone. Nice to be here. Yeah, it's something that we've been trying to do for a while is get this group of three this try add together to have some conversations about HR for HR.

[00:01:14] And I'm glad we were finally able to do it. It's been kind of a crazy winter with just everything that's going on in the winter time and now we're getting ready for some exciting new things this summer, which will talk a little bit about some of those things as well, but I'm just glad that the three of us could finally get on the same call at the same time and talk about some fun stuff.

[00:01:34] I'm like it's hard to it. Yes.

[00:01:38] Same, thank you, Terry. Yeah, I mean we the three of us have talked often on for some time about just this whole idea of HR for HR and I thought that would be a great topic for our listeners.

[00:01:53] I want to approach it a couple different ways, but if that sounds like a good plan to you.

[00:01:58] I think we will get into the huddle. Let's do it. All right. So Malika before we dive in 2D, can you just tell us a little bit about your background as an entrepreneur.

[00:02:13] I think people would be really interested to hear about what you've been doing and sort of what moved you to the business of HR.

[00:02:22] Yeah, thanks, Terry. I think like most entrepreneurs it probably wasn't planned how I ended up here right it's been a winding road, a cool road but just kind of following the next thing that presented itself as an opportunity and I think when you're an entrepreneur you're always sort of saying, why does it work that way?

[00:02:41] I think you're being set up this way and could it be done better. And that's kind of that the spirit that sort of motivates you so with that, I got my start about 10 years ago in a very different space and the board game bar space that's the path I took I'd spent

[00:02:57] a decade of my life kind of in the service sector in various front of house positions coffee shop bars restaurants sort of as a side gig up until that point and I was really curious to start my own venture.

[00:03:11] I just come out of Ohio State's business school and I was curious about entrepreneurship by kind of caught that bug when I was studying for my MBA.

[00:03:18] I've always been really curious about teams and how they operate and how to create experiences that motivate and drive people to their best professional output so was kind of curious if I could change like a long held myth or sort of belief in the restaurant and sort of service sector that people are always turning over in their positions right I was kind of curious if there would be a way to create

[00:03:42] a team culture that was long lasting and held up for supportive of a mission and a bigger cause than just I'm going to take this as a gig. And I had worked for a couple restaurant tours that did create experiences like that so I was curious how to model that.

[00:03:56] And I was passing through Toronto at some point in 2012 saw the model and thought oh I could bring that to Columbus Ohio where I'm from and like again like most entrepreneurs probably didn't realize the project I had signed up for it took me a couple years to actually figure that out.

[00:04:13] We opened the public in 2014 and as soon as we open somebody asked me if they could bring in their team for a private team bonding session and that was really the first time that I didn't know what they meant and that was the first time that we created a service that could be in today's environment understood as a team engagement business or offering right so.

[00:04:33] That was my first and that we open the second location in Annapolis and that also happened there and we started working with corporate clients in Annapolis as well on private facilitated team bonding events during the afternoons before opening to the public and it was quickly becoming something that I realized was sort of overtaking even the public facing business.

[00:04:52] And I sat down with my team and proud to say that we did sort of create a culture where people were there for a long time so people are really curious about what the next step was or the strategy ahead.

[00:05:02] And we thought about kind of making that more the primary focus of the business and then covid came around in March of 2020 and solved that for us.

[00:05:10] Yeah, that was not the plan but funny that you're I mean in some ways you were kind of in the business of HR already I mean when you think about that sort of thing.

[00:05:21] What's funny about that sort of team dynamics and what you were doing to support people trying to build teams and just how critical of an aspect that is of the organization.

[00:05:34] Yeah, came at it from a different direction but it's yeah, you know, didn't mean up there but we did I think yeah I think it's I was I love that backstory and I don't know that I've actually heard you give the whole story of the whole story.

[00:05:48] I'm like, right. Oh that's really cool right like with the fact that they came to you asking for team bonding because we know as HR professionals that's always one of the hardest things to do is get a team to function effectively right and to know that I love gaming bars and events and things like that right like it's a big part of I think where the markets at these days but the idea of using that for a team development I think is really powerful like us so

[00:06:12] that could as to you for seeing and taking advantage of something that was but much I think before it's time to be honest in this world.

[00:06:18] I do think the idea of play and using play for teams and corporate environments has now taken off more fully but your rights they see and actually at that time I mean if you thought it was hard to build team culture and connection in a in person environment right it was in people a lot of our clients especially here being in the Midwest just had an encountered long standing remote environment.

[00:06:42] So they were sort of thrown into it with us and we all kind of learn together so we threw a bunch of different things at the wall but the thing that stuck was taking our service to zoom and offering facilitated board game play for companies in these remote work environments and so that was sort of again like just kind of grew into it and that was the offering that we had for a year and a half but as a result we were working exclusively with people leaders and HR departments that were in a real

[00:07:11] crisis right they were trying to solve this in so many they were trying to solve very a lot of problems and so many different across the spectrum of their jobs and that was how we again kind of fell into just curiosity around the way that HR as a function was operating.

[00:07:28] And how we were coming into contact with that as vendors who are trying to sell a service that's kind of a moment of friction right where the way that HR is kind of functioning internally.

[00:07:40] Then comes up against how vendors trying to sell and put a service that they're offering into their business.

[00:07:47] And then you come up into the conversation of budgets and who approves those budgets and how do you sell the impact of what you're buying to the to the stakeholders that are then having to approve those budgets and how do you measure that impact and that's kind of how we got really curious about how does HR do that right and so that's how we fall into.

[00:08:08] The current product that we're working on with myriad is how could we support or guide those types of decisions that are happening at in HR functions yeah so you were kind of outside looking in view of HR where there's some specific pain points that you identified that you thought wow I think that's something we can really do something about or fix or think about.

[00:08:35] Yeah that's a great question I think the one that probably stuck out to us the most as we continue to have these consults or before we sold in a service right is the stakeholder piece so HR obviously has numerous stakeholders right including of course employees who are a huge part of that but what we saw wasn't that there wasn't so much there was lack there was a lack of innovation or motivation.

[00:09:05] And to support necessarily that stakeholder group it was that the sort of challenge between HR and the executive leadership team like the C suite team right that state those stakeholder relationships that dynamic in that relationship and that trust was sort of fundamentally not there and when that when those relationships don't work then anything that you're sort of putting out to other stakeholder relationships.

[00:09:35] Don't really get they can't really function right so it's sort of like how do we go back to the root cause and try to support how HR is engage with the C suite how they are talking and communicating with the C suite how can we get these two entities on the same page and then some of those other stakeholder relationships are going to naturally get more productive and more fruitful and more open and transparent right so that's kind of the one that we were

[00:10:03] that we really kind of honed in on is how is that kind of that stakeholder piece there and that relates to budget impact metrics communication all of those things are rolled into that but it was really how to just sort of support that relationship.

[00:10:17] It's intriguing to me Malika as you're going through your thought process as you were seeing that the same thing Terry and I see two won't talk into a lot of HR leaders is that the process of the work oftentimes overwhelms the conversation.

[00:10:31] Did you find oftentimes that in the conversations that you were able to provide HR with some of the language and that helped or do you think this is more also of an issue of we oftentimes don't know what's having an impact nature it's not as clear cut as like marketing tool or marketing or a finance model right is it would that be a bigger situation you think is that is the challenge of not knowing.

[00:10:56] I really think so stacy and honestly i mean do i think that we're going to solve it like we're going to have an answer is like such i mean i don't i truly don't think so but i'm where i always go back to is like let's start somewhere right let's start.

[00:11:09] With some sort of let's put a stake in the ground somewhere that we can sort of say hey we all agree that this HR action or initiative or spend drives is allocated or is related or aligned to this sort of outcome for business right so.

[00:11:27] I totally agree with you stacy i don't know that we were having any real insights or impact except that obviously people want to know when they purchase something and invest in something that there is some return on that right and sometimes.

[00:11:42] There's a maybe a moment where you can get away with maybe it's such a hot topic or trend or such an immediate need that people aren't really questioning the dollars spent or the time invested right and that might have been what was happening in the immediate aftermath of sort of the pandemic and what we were all facing.

[00:12:00] With our service but eventually that renewal or reengagement or something people are going to question what came of this spend right what came of the time that we invested here the resources that I put here and so I think that.

[00:12:14] And so I think that it is really challenging to connect that I think that you all have made that step in your taking that step with your survey right to say like we have an opinion out we're going to start with something right as better to let's just put something out there and see if this tracks or if we need to change it or if this is actually.

[00:12:35] measurable or quantifiable in the way that we thought it was but.

[00:12:38] I agree with you that it's a very large and squishy topic and.

[00:12:44] We can just take some steps towards progress and kind of moving that question away towards HR driving value for the business versus the narrative that's kind of been in the past of now you know it's interesting how you started that conversation with sort of we didn't know.

[00:13:03] Which direction we were going to go and Stacy and I had the pleasure of meeting you guys a few years ago and actually getting to participate in the whole Kingmakers remote which was quite fun but.

[00:13:15] When I you started off with a different idea you started off with this idea of a marketplace and how to.

[00:13:24] Build HR how to help HR with particularly smaller organizations for figuring out how to navigate all of the solutions I was just on a call this morning where we were listing off names of solutions for some.

[00:13:37] Game that we're doing and the list was endless right I mean there's just so many technologies and you kind of started off.

[00:13:46] Thinking that's the direction you were going to go and then you talk a little bit about that because you spent some time then a year at least figuring this out and came out with.

[00:13:56] A slightly different perspective and and a different approach to what you wanted to focus on yeah absolutely now thank you OK that is actually it's so true and so.

[00:14:06] The marketplace or sort of idea that kind of that thing I was talking about right that when you're looking externally to source and that a resource or tool to support your.

[00:14:18] Internal function that is a very it's a process that currently is really painful and terrible for probably both parties right it's not like a.

[00:14:28] In any.

[00:14:29] And you all know that your work right as advisors as well and when you talk to companies that a big part of HR is the external vendors right the solutions the consultants the advisors the benefits providers like there's a whole ecosystem of folks that.

[00:14:47] Support every internal HR function and so that is a big part of your job as an HR leader is to analyze and vet and choose the best fit.

[00:15:01] Product or service for your company and one that aligns with your culture and your budget and who is actually going to use it and how can we have the most impact out of this thing that we're probably spending a good amount of money on and we have to convince people to to use it and spend time and resources.

[00:15:17] Communicating value and all of that right so I still think there is a huge opportunity to make that.

[00:15:24] A better experience for both parties because the worst thing that happens for both parties right as you sell something again like you may be get that one sale right it goes in but then it's not utilized not optimize like.

[00:15:36] People are excited about it they're not engaged on it and then what's the point of that that just creates like a really then painful resale or reengagement process renewal process.

[00:15:45] But I do think Terry what happened is that at the end of the day I think folks don't really want to feel like they're being sold to right so the idea of coming into a marketplace and just kind of going through the motions of what a typical marketplace looks like.

[00:16:01] At the end of that experience on as a on behalf of our HR leader users just wasn't an exciting.

[00:16:08] Product experience for us to create like I think we were we ultimately came away with.

[00:16:14] We're more interested in really supporting the daily work and sort of being thinking of the short term and long term planning that HR leaders are doing and if part of that is to then recommend.

[00:16:26] A best fit tool that can happen in a better.

[00:16:31] Process once we actually know how folks are working what their company values are what their business goals are like those are actually the things that really.

[00:16:40] Create an environment where then someone can can access or find a best fit tool or service right so it felt if we go down this route.

[00:16:51] It's maybe a business model that makes more sense but it's not going to feel like a great experience.

[00:16:56] It's not going to feel it's not going to feel like something that we were excited about building like we wanted to be a bit more in the day to day curious about making.

[00:17:07] The life the work life of the HR leader more enjoyable the and really celebrate how they're working today and just make that a bit easier so.

[00:17:17] I mean Terry a lot of you and I see this but I also it's we see that the survey on a regular basis on the research side is that the current HR leaders and their supporting functions when that's HR IT or it's.

[00:17:30] Talent or learning they're burnt out that's with the language we hear over and every not that it isn't across the board in every organization some level of overwork.

[00:17:39] But I think HR came right out of covid and right into the next sort of the skill gap issue and then right into now an economy issues they're dealing with the live.

[00:17:48] Like there hasn't been a moment to breathe is what I've heard and so when that when you ask them I think it's very telling that you said that point at which I'm making decision is painful.

[00:18:00] Malika that nothing you do and work should be painful right it's not that painful it's not when you're selecting technology and so to me that I think is kind of interesting that that's and that's a language we use I think it's everybody that talks you uses that language right.

[00:18:13] Yeah absolutely and you're right Stacy it's it's one thing after another right there always be sort of.

[00:18:21] A trend or a topic or something that is the thing that sort of it's like hey focus here no now we want you to focus here now we want you to focus here.

[00:18:29] And so that the way that we're all kind of operating or the expectations we have on HR today are also exacerbating this idea of like the feeling of burnout right and this and so that it makes total sense because then it's like oh we invested in this set of tools because we thought.

[00:18:47] But this was what we were working on right we were we thought we were focused here but then we're now slingshotting over here and so I think that is something that we're curious in understanding as well through our product is just a bit more of a slightly longer term and more less kind of reactive approach to things that then I think should also like you said translate to that fine process.

[00:19:13] When everyone is kind of on the same page and there's been discussions about it and you built that business case and the buy in is there the budgets there it's allocated.

[00:19:22] There's a agreement understanding and alignment on kind of why we're spending versus oh I heard skills or the next best thing let's find the thing that's going to AI our skills right so we can move on.

[00:19:33] It's just like those magic pills aren't really out there right and then they create more chaos more systems more exhaustion on the part of everybody involved in those decisions yeah I love the word that you that keeps coming up curious curiosity.

[00:19:51] I think that's so key in what we do and it leads us to do things that we might not have done otherwise otherwise we just kind of follow the status quo.

[00:20:01] And I know when we met it's been 18 months ago I don't know a little bit longer.

[00:20:07] I know Stacy and I were pleasantly surprised when we came back together and found out where you had kind of gotten to like it just it was wow this is the kind of thing that we've got.

[00:20:20] We've been thinking about and not knowing exactly how to make it happen.

[00:20:26] And I know what was important I think is that whole curiosity piece right you went out and you asked the questions and you met with vendors I think you also met with a lot of practitioners which to me is key.

[00:20:40] What do people want what do they need like what's the real need out there what was it that you think you learned or heard from practitioners that like was there.

[00:20:50] And I'm a moment for you that you said how I think we're working on the wrong thing like let's go work on this other thing yeah I think that it is the benefit of being an outsider right and having kind of a window because I and we are team also come with all.

[00:21:10] The stereotypes or narratives or conversations that have swirled around HR for a long time right we all know that right until you come in and people have.

[00:21:20] Ideas or interactions or experiences maybe a handful were positive but I think for the most part people that are outside of the industry.

[00:21:29] Carry a certain narrative right and I think that what didn't really track for us are kind of as we talk to more and more people especially in the midst of what we can all look back on right now was a serious crisis at that time right it wasn't.

[00:21:44] Like it we just found the individuals that were we were speaking with were so they were so hard working they were so sincere they were so genuinely.

[00:21:55] Take trying to take care of their employees and their companies and their culture and their business like it I think we just didn't buy the narrative that.

[00:22:04] And in like that it felt like there was something bigger happening here there was sort of a structural or systematic way that the function had been set up and now that we've done.

[00:22:16] A bit more research or kind of thought historically about how HR has grown up in the corporation right I think there is some really interesting.

[00:22:26] It's some interesting takeaways there of how we got here right but I think that we just kind of realize that.

[00:22:33] The expectations are have been a bit unfair and actually the folks that are in the seats doing the work are working.

[00:22:43] W hard to overcome that work and that isn't really fair either and that it wouldn't be an expectation that we have on a different function of the business.

[00:22:53] And to be honest I mean you look at it I think it's what 76% 80 upwards of 75% women in the industry right and I think as a women led team that was very striking to us you know why.

[00:23:08] Why why was it that this function that is overwhelmingly filled all the ranks from the CHRO CPO on down to a business partner on down to a man it like why is it that.

[00:23:21] This role that is overwhelmingly women why do they why are they working like this right and is it actually being held up because these women are working really hard and really diligently and they're actually really able to overcome.

[00:23:32] A lot of the structural barriers that have been put in front of them right that maybe it's almost the opposite of the narrative that's been kind of floated out there for so long.

[00:23:42] Yeah I think the comment you made like that just struck me that is so is that the narrative was driving maybe some of the challenges like like that it created maybe in a sudden environment that is harder to work and then we expected right so.

[00:24:01] That's something I think we've seen that in the data in the sense that you would not expect the same level of sort of maybe business case values or the amount of financial sort of whoops you have to jump through sometimes for a finance system marketing system we hear that all the time right because it's just expected that's going to give you outcomes right.

[00:24:24] It's an interesting perspective that you saw that standing from the outside because we sometimes feel it but as an insider it's oftentimes like well maybe it's just me I just feel like it's really hard.

[00:24:33] Absolutely and it's tasty you know this are from your experience that there's a plethora of HR solutions and HR technology but when it comes to the people in HR.

[00:24:48] Yeah they've got an admin feature in this tool but there's a whole lot of other work that HR does that's not done in these tools and so Excel becomes the de facto solution for pretty much everything and it's hard for HR to in my view get money to spend on HR specific tools having been someone who used to market technology for comp.

[00:25:17] I know it was very hard because they didn't want to spend money on a tool that comp professionals were the only ones we're going to use so there's there's this desire to have more capability and to elevate the capability and the knowledge and the data but there's sort of a gap there with like getting the right solutions to support.

[00:25:41] Harriet I have nothing to add couldn't have said it better.

[00:25:45] It's not that's exactly it and think about that's for folks that I mean we're all in it right we're thinking about this all the time right when I go talk to folks that are outside of the space and say what we're building it's either just either disbelief that is actually what's happening or it's like it yeah it's mostly just disbelief or sort of how could it because it's not

[00:26:10] there's not a lack of tools like you said right that the HR tech industry and the benefits base and all there's so many choices so I think that is hard for people to understand the thing that we're talking about

[00:26:25] is actually how to manage that work how to manage those decisions how to manage that planning how to manage that those stakeholder relationships the communication around that right that is different than

[00:26:38] the point solution that executes something or the benefit that supports this or the people analytics tool or the data tool that gives you the insight like that is a different thing and

[00:26:51] you're right I mean I think that Excel becomes the default right or folks again because they're savvy and intelligent and scrappy they hack together a number of other tools that aren't made for them right but then they sort of layer on top of each other and kind of make it work for them and we've heard

[00:27:07] so many wild stories I also think that HR leaders they share a lot they help each other they're constantly learning right so when someone has hacked together an Excel spreadsheet with 20 tabs that does the thing that they need it to do then they're they're willing to share that with with somebody else in their peer group right so it's just like this they're creating it right and I think that what's unfortunate about like what we want to sort of solve around that is how we want to do that

[00:27:36] and then the other thing that we want to do is solve around that is how can it be caught up to how fast the technology and the decisions that need to be made are moving today right so

[00:27:46] we want to be able to support the pace of the work and the pace of keeping up with business that HR really has to have access to in order to be that real partner for the business right we that it would help to have a tool that was on par with the other functions of the business.

[00:28:03] Conversations with the other HR practitioners who we hear this on the survey side I'd be interested in what you're hearing too is that the other part about HR is again because it's so many systems and so many in integrations and swing different audiences that those systems are serving is that whole conversation about if the person who bought it all for the person who started it late leaves how do I know what is being used and where it's at and when it was purchased and I mean outside of the procurement tool sometimes

[00:28:32] if you're lucky that is one of the reasons we hear people a year and year again say I'm going to take your survey because I put it in binder in a PDF like it's put in my full in my desk and if I ever leave or if something happens that's the only history we have of why and we bought the systems we bought do you hear that conversation at all for people over and over again stays in the binder.

[00:28:57] I just heard it this morning I was speaking with somebody today and she said that she's supporting the HR work of a company that's getting ready to sell and now they're like shoot well what have we done here so they're trying to take everything that exists in people's heads and start to document it and where does that go right it goes into spreadsheets or word docs or slide slides or I mean it is it say we hear that all the time yeah the only reason.

[00:29:27] Like the moment where I think about it is when I have to actually transfer that to somebody else and it's a real challenge give especially given what we've seen through the survey in terms of the institute institutional knowledge if I get that word out people that have left the organization like some of that data doesn't exist or nobody knows where it is right so.

[00:29:50] Absolutely yeah that becomes a you're kind of piecing it together.

[00:29:55] Yeah and another thing and this is something that again we haven't really talked about but I'd be curious what you all think about this is that there isn't really because of this ad hoc nature of sort of folks building their own systems or ways to work individually or kind of within every company there hasn't really there isn't really a standard language or sort of a standard way to think about.

[00:30:20] When we look as outsiders on it let's say there's like eight to twelve maybe like big buckets of functional areas of HR right and it and of course there's more complexity below all those headers and headcount matters and industry matters and things like that matter but the functional things that you're executing are all pretty standard yet there hasn't really been a standardization of the kind of a standardization of the kind of a standardization of the kind of a standardization of the kind of a standard language or a standard language or a standard language.

[00:30:50] When I say X at this company I mean I mean the same thing like that means the same thing across industry across functional air cross like it means the same thing right and I think so.

[00:31:04] That has also created a feeling I think of maybe more chaos than is even happening with it I think everyone generally knows what things mean and I'm going to lie themselves but there isn't sort of a standard language in the way that a P and L statement or cash flow statement or balance sheet like all of those terms are understood.

[00:31:25] So I think it's a good thing to say that there's a standardization of the kind of a standardization of the kind of a standard language or a standard language and cash flow statement or balance sheet like all of those terms are understood.

[00:32:10] Because they have to go from environment to environment and speak to the whole consumer market as a whole right HR because it's such an employee focused your company focusing.

[00:32:21] We have I think Terry you and I still get into conversations with people about what is an actual employee full time employee part time employee does include the contingent probably not but depends on which country you're in right.

[00:32:34] Yeah and back in the day when I was doing comp surveys we tried several times to get a advisory committee together across organizations to just standardize the data around comp and that that was a challenge when you start looking at any piece of data in HR.

[00:32:57] And a lot of this drives the culture in the organization so anything we do from a technology perspective.

[00:33:05] Especially now with the hybrid workforce being so prevalent we've just got a kind of different set of issues to deal with we're not seeing people every day we're not talking to them every day we're not having that sort of common communication so sometimes it feels like there's a lot of re explaining.

[00:33:25] You mean absolutely yeah no that's I think that's a big part of what we're curious about as well use the word again just what that would look like to have folks using a standardized sort of place that speaks their language and that they're able to inform it.

[00:33:45] It's a conversation but it's happening in a space where lots of folks are participating but kind of utilizing that similar language here just seeing if we can kind of get on the same page about some things here like we said stays you write as such a big undertaking but could we start somewhere.

[00:34:00] Like a common language or we're talking.

[00:34:03] It's what caught my eye when you guys first walked us through the tool that that were taught a myriad right I think what caught my eye most was you were attacking it again from an answer is perspective which sometimes is very helpful.

[00:34:14] And you didn't go with the direct let's catalog everything right which I think is what most of the world sort of does in this kind of case and your approach was to let's talk about the business and the mission and the goals.

[00:34:27] And it will lead us to this conversation and I think that was when it struck me instead out we've been talking about being more strategic but maybe part of the conversation is we need to change what everyone else is expecting as well right like how that conversation takes place and when it takes place because it's not a conversation.

[00:34:43] And it takes place because if all the business keeps doing is coming to us and asking us for a tool and you keep trying to talk about strategy and you don't have a way to talk about strategy they're not listening and it's like you're talking to languages and so I really liked how you were doing that and I think for HR because there's so many.

[00:35:01] The each other professionals they know their business and they know their company's business and they're bright and they've got the data but if they keep being asked for the wrong thing it's really hard to overcome right absolutely yeah absolutely love that.

[00:35:12] And I think while we don't have time to talk in detail about AI I always like to mention it on my podcast because I do think there's going to be some real.

[00:35:25] Opportunity here this is one of those places that feels like there's a really good opportunity for AI to.

[00:35:32] And I think it's really good to help HR in the business of HR and do some things that just today take way too much time and the value is.

[00:35:43] It needs to be there but it doesn't need to take a lot of time to get it done.

[00:35:48] And I agree wholeheartedly I mean whether you believe in AI or it's common we're all in it so it's going to I mean i'm very excited I agree with all that but I have to give you all kudos because I do think that.

[00:36:01] What I think drew us to you all and what I still firmly stand by is that you do have to do the hard work right to get the good data before you.

[00:36:12] Kind of go in and say let's make it more efficient let's make it faster let's make it more accessible let's clean it up let's do that right and I think.

[00:36:21] Stacy you especially every time we talk about the survey it is.

[00:36:25] Though it's years in the making right it's hard to get at some of this stuff it's hard to change a mindset it's hard to change how people are working day to day and what they've thought and like how can you present that data in a way that shows that to them and allows that to.

[00:36:41] That change to happen right so I think that.

[00:36:44] I think what I what we really admire in the relationship with you all is that you are doing the work like it's not always easy it doesn't happen right away it takes years right to go back and like a change.

[00:36:56] And yes of course technology will continue to advance and will be able to benefit from that but at the end of the day like how you're thinking about it the questions that you ask the work you put in the connections you make how you interpret that data.

[00:37:09] How you clean up that data and how you collect that data is still going to have to happen the data has to come in somewhere for that analysis and those insights and that efficiency to happen.

[00:37:20] Yeah I think the AI conversation is such a it's in everything it's every step you take these days and it's really it's the approach and the ability of it to pick up information and synthesize that information is rapidly sort of increasing.

[00:37:37] But and we just have this conversation this morning with a group about the fact that.

[00:37:41] But the more you let it loose in your environment the more it changes it it's kind of like nothing nothing lives in a bubble and if it does right like like so now the time but synthesized trading data for a lot of these a eyes to see if to try and get away from what is not so clean data that's in all of our world.

[00:37:58] Well I think to your point this is it's hard work to get to this which means that when it's done well and wants to effectively it can change lives I don't get I actually think it can really change the role.

[00:38:10] The workload that is that HR has in front of it and it can change the experience of employees but I really love sort of this balance that that everybody is trying to work towards which is.

[00:38:21] AI is valuable if it's got the right input to it right and that's I think what everybody is trying to get to yeah absolutely yeah.

[00:38:31] So usually on this show we're solving a problem and we like to leave people with something at the end that they can go do I'm not sure we have something specific around this topic because it really was more just a conversation about some of the things we're working on from an HR perspective but there's a couple of words that I have.

[00:38:50] I have a couple of words that I heard in this conversation that I liked and I want to put out there and I'll ask you guys to maybe add in the curiosity right and if you're in HR you know how important it is to be curious about what you're doing and why you're doing it because those are the things that get you to better.

[00:39:10] So if you have any questions or answers then just this is the way we've always done it and then Malika you said something else I thought was really important and that was trust.

[00:39:21] And I think that kind of permeates through through HR where trusted source to the organization and so we need to know and feel like we're doing the right things we're getting the right data.

[00:39:33] And the information that we're sharing makes sense because we're using good data right and not just garbage and garbage out type thing so those are two things I heard on this conversation and as we evolve the support from an HR perspective I think those are a couple of things to keep in mind I don't know Stacy do you have anything you would add.

[00:39:55] Yeah, no, the other thing I heard you say which I think actually fits well with a lot of stuff that we're seeing as well as the word leadership you said it a couple times right leading and changing and not to your own horn by any means because I think it's always easy to sort of forget that doing strategy or talk about being strategic is really easy actually helping people be strategic is a lot harder right so.

[00:40:15] We're in the process of putting together by the time this releases will probably be in the middle of our first cohort are really powerful cohort education program because we wanted people.

[00:40:26] We wanted to help people take those first steps right and like I know you're working with us a couple other people are working with us to make sure that we can help people do that in a way that's that they could actually handle with their day to day job loads right but to me I think that's as industry leaders as people in the industry who are seeing more than just our work.

[00:40:45] They're all their own little companies because I think that's the hard part when you're trying to do the job of HR I think it's incumbent on us to not just say no here's what you need to do but it's incumbent on us to provide some of the tools or the pathways or work with a group of people to make those steps more practical and practical and all things I think because it's really easy to follow sort of the leaders and look at them and go oh I wish I were them.

[00:41:10] The journey to get to where they're at starts with a single step right and so that I guess that would be my takeaway carry on it all is we can be leaders in every area of what we're doing right.

[00:41:20] Well, I was going to say what they could do is join the cohort but you're right by the time this is well actually they might have a week or so to do that.

[00:41:30] Yeah depending on the it's the airwaves but yeah if you hear this and your interest to give us a boss we do have a very practical and pragmatic thing that you can do when you can sign.

[00:41:41] And if you can't get into this one there will be another one next yeah love to wait for you again yeah well this has been great I thank you molyca and thank you Stacy for joining us and making this little triad today it's been a really interesting conversation I can't wait to see some of the things that are going to come out of this so we'll plan to do another one late this year or early next year.

[00:42:06] Yeah, that would be fun yeah we also want to thank you and just a lot of respect for what you all do at sapien and really appreciate you all including us in your journey.

[00:42:20] Well, thank you I also want to thank our producers the brand method media group our marketing team and I want to thank you for tuning in that is all the time we have for this episode of HR we have a problem if you enjoy the episode you can subscribe to it on your channel.

[00:42:36] And if you're a favorite podcast app leave us a review we'd love to hear what you think and we'd also love it if you had some ideas of things you want to hear about you can also drop us a line or schedule a chat on the website and we will be back in two weeks with another episode of HR we have a problem thanks everybody.

[00:43:06] you