HR, We Have a Problem - The evolving landscape of performance management and the latest AI-powered tools to create positive change in employee performance, engagement and retention, support managers and connect it all to business impact.

[00:00:00] I'm not sure I've actually ever met someone in HR who didn't either start their career in HR or move into HR because of how much they cared about people.

[00:00:09] And caring about people is a really heavy burden, especially whenever you have to deliver the business impact on top.

[00:00:15] So firstly, thank you so much for that.

[00:00:17] Pat yourself on the back, right?

[00:00:19] Pat yourself on the back. You earned it. You earned it.

[00:00:22] You know, get yourself, you know, a spa day or something.

[00:00:25] You've definitely earned it.

[00:00:26] You haven't been thanked enough for everything that you do.

[00:00:30] Welcome to the HR Huddle podcast, presented by Sapient Insights Group, the ultimate resource for all things HR.

[00:00:41] It's time to get in the huddle.

[00:00:50] Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the HR Huddle.

[00:00:53] I'm your host, Terri Zipper, CEO and managing partner at Sapient Insights Group.

[00:00:58] And I'm back for another episode of HR We Have a Problem.

[00:01:02] This is the show where we break down the big and relevant HR issues of the day.

[00:01:07] We help you make sense of what they mean and we talk about what you might do about them.

[00:01:13] Joining me today is Jeff Smith.

[00:01:15] Jeff is the chief product officer at 155.

[00:01:18] He's been a practitioner, so he's done what you do.

[00:01:21] He's also an author and a psychologist.

[00:01:24] 15.5 is a system that works alongside your system of record to help organizations increase employee engagement, performance and by extension, retention.

[00:01:35] Welcome, Jeff.

[00:01:36] Thanks for joining the show.

[00:01:38] Yeah, thank you so much.

[00:01:39] 15.5 is such fans of Sapient and the research that you all do.

[00:01:42] And I'm excited to get into this today with you.

[00:01:45] So, Jeff, I know you're passionate about performance.

[00:01:48] More importantly, I know that you care about the demands that get placed on HR leaders and not just understand performance of the organization, but to be able to leverage it in positive ways while balancing employee satisfaction and engagement.

[00:02:05] I also know that the evolution of AI over the past 18 to 24 months, there's some big changes coming, particularly in performance and prediction.

[00:02:14] So I'd like to break this all down for the audience and talk about what's happening out there and how we can support HR, make things better for employees.

[00:02:23] And maybe talk a little bit about why this stuff is so hard.

[00:02:27] Does that sound like a good plan to you?

[00:02:29] Yeah, that sounds perfect.

[00:02:31] Awesome.

[00:02:31] Then let's get into the huddle.

[00:02:33] So again, I was talking about a couple of organizations that I had been meeting with this week.

[00:02:39] Very different, very divergent.

[00:02:41] You know, one of them had recently implemented a solution performance tool.

[00:02:46] They were using it for check-ins.

[00:02:48] They had a real desire to use it for more and their midsize organization.

[00:02:53] You know, they've been growing.

[00:02:55] The other organization that I met with, interestingly enough, had said they have never done performance reviews except for the one off sort of 90 or 120 day post start, you know, after you're a new hire.

[00:03:09] And even that was sort of barely documented.

[00:03:11] I, you know, getting a sense out there, especially as this pendulum is swinging back from a performance perspective, people are hungry for help in this area.

[00:03:22] What are you seeing?

[00:03:23] Yeah, that lines up with what we're seeing, you know, as whenever we think about strategic HR and where HR teams are trying to go more and more always gets added onto the list with very little coming off the list, if anything.

[00:03:36] And that's an area that I'm particularly passionate about helping HR teams with.

[00:03:41] And we definitely see an increase in focus on performance right now, where organizations are looking to understand performance so they can make the right decisions and right investments in their people.

[00:03:53] But then also people want to perform.

[00:03:56] You know, ICs and managers want to make an impact on organizations.

[00:04:00] They want to be high performing.

[00:04:02] They want the feedback.

[00:04:03] They want the recognition, the encouragement, the feedback on how to improve.

[00:04:08] They want the career paths and the growth.

[00:04:10] And HR has really, you know, put in a tough position many times because HR teams are small and they need to get a lot out of their managers in support of performance as well.

[00:04:20] So we see increasing investments in the fundamentals of performance management.

[00:04:25] So things like performance reviews, increased interest in the focus on continuous performance management.

[00:04:32] So things like one-on-ones recognition and feedback.

[00:04:35] And then also HR teams are looking for more from their managers with regard to performance as well.

[00:04:41] So helping their people grow, helping their people succeed and then holding managers accountable in new ways for their own performance and growth.

[00:04:48] Yeah, there's a little bit of chicken and egg.

[00:04:51] Like what comes first?

[00:04:52] Right.

[00:04:53] And I know people, the other thing having experienced this myself recently being a small company, people want goals.

[00:05:02] They kind of know their job, right?

[00:05:05] They obviously know their job and the things that you've got them working on, but they really want those big goals to say, OK, if I do this, I'm going to have helped the organization, helped myself grow in my career.

[00:05:19] This is the kind of real goals built for people.

[00:05:22] Right.

[00:05:23] What is it I really do and how do I build a goal that is actually going to tie back to the organization's business goals, but also make me better at what I do?

[00:05:35] Yeah, I agree.

[00:05:36] I think that's an excellent point that organizations want goals, of course, because organizations want to achieve and grow and hit revenue targets.

[00:05:45] But also, to your point, people want goals.

[00:05:47] They want to focus their effort on what matters.

[00:05:51] They want their work to matter.

[00:05:53] The time and energy that they put in, you know, science suggests that the idea of achievement is core to well-being and thriving for people.

[00:06:01] So it's an excellent call out that goals aren't just for organizations.

[00:06:05] Goals are also for individuals and managers as well.

[00:06:08] Yeah, we're also told that employees need to be engaged to stick around and do good work as a manager.

[00:06:17] What are some of the ways that you recognize engagement or some signals that maybe I've lost engagement?

[00:06:25] Besides that annual survey that organizations do, there's things happening every day that could be signs to, you know, disengagement, challenges, people not meeting their goals.

[00:06:38] You know, what are some ways I can recognize that and then what do I do with that information?

[00:06:42] Because, you know, it kind of gets lost in the shuffle over time.

[00:06:46] Yeah, it's a great call out to your point.

[00:06:48] You know, engagement surveys are important.

[00:06:51] They're something that gives you that deeper dive into what's going on to engagement.

[00:06:55] You know, we recommend organizations do them between two and four times a year based on where they're at.

[00:07:01] But also managers need to be watching for these things as well.

[00:07:05] I personally recommend that managers have one-on-ones with each of their people every week where you talk about goals and then you give feedback, including recognition and encouragement.

[00:07:14] And one of the things that as a manager that you might notice is that one of your people, maybe their energy seems down, of course, or they're running into something that's blocking them at work and they are not taking the initiative or responding to that the way they did before.

[00:07:34] So that's a really good time to check in and seeing what's going on with the individual, you know, asking, sincere, how are you?

[00:07:41] Not just like the throw away, like how are you fine?

[00:07:45] Okay, great.

[00:07:45] Let's talk about business.

[00:07:47] Also, one of my favorite questions for managers is how can I best support you right now?

[00:07:52] And if you're finding that your people aren't achieving their goals and they're not giving you anything that you can support them on, that's definitely a sign that there's something deeper going on.

[00:08:04] And it's again worthwhile to check on.

[00:08:06] Like, did they know that they matter to you in the organization?

[00:08:09] Do they know why their work matters?

[00:08:11] Do they have opportunities to see the impact of their work?

[00:08:16] Like, for example, many times say an organization will have functions that don't face customers, of course, like finance, IT.

[00:08:24] And it can be tougher sometimes for those functions to see the impact that they have on other people.

[00:08:30] So bringing in other stakeholders to talk about how important they are.

[00:08:34] Recognition is really powerful.

[00:08:36] You know, at 15.5, we're very much about the connection between performance engagement and the connection between recognition and engagement as well, where we want to be celebrating progress and small wins.

[00:08:47] And that can reinvigorate people.

[00:08:49] That can give people a sense of energy around what they're asked to do every day in an organization.

[00:08:53] Yeah, I love that question.

[00:08:55] I find that question, you know, what can I do to help you as their manager is a very powerful question for people because they don't often anticipate it.

[00:09:07] Right. It's not like you're asking, can I take, you know, can I go do your work for you?

[00:09:13] It's, you know, what are the things, what are the roadblocks?

[00:09:16] What are the things that are keeping you from being able to achieve your goals?

[00:09:21] And how can I help remove those those roadblocks?

[00:09:24] Super simple, right?

[00:09:27] It's it's really simple.

[00:09:28] Yeah, I intentionally have included the word support in there.

[00:09:32] And how can I best support you right now?

[00:09:34] Because I want the person to know that, like, I believe in them, like that we as managers and leaders, we believe in their people, we want them to have autonomy.

[00:09:45] We want them to feel empowered and enabled.

[00:09:48] And also, though, we want them to know, like, hey, I'm here to support you.

[00:09:52] Like, I'm here for you.

[00:09:53] So and the word best is in there, too.

[00:09:55] So you don't get like you said, drawn into, you know, like, oh, I really want you to become my assistant or and right now is like a very focused on the immediacy.

[00:10:05] Right. But you can only do that.

[00:10:07] How can I best support you right now if you're talking with people regularly?

[00:10:11] Like if it's like, oh, I haven't had a one on one three months, your people will just won't feel the support that they need.

[00:10:17] Yeah, not quite the same.

[00:10:18] Right. Not the same at all.

[00:10:21] So, you know, it is when I think about HR specifically, and they're kind of in this position where they're administering the process.

[00:10:31] And they're also personally conducting the process on their own teams.

[00:10:34] Right. So how does HR kind of stay above the fray and not let themselves get torn between the strategy which they have to build and develop?

[00:10:46] Otherwise, the process doesn't work.

[00:10:49] And the tactics of how you get it done is, you know, they're just increasingly being asked to do more and be given more accountability for some of these things.

[00:11:00] Yeah, it's such a challenging question because as we talked about, many HR teams are small and they as you just said, they get asked to do more and more.

[00:11:09] I think part of it is staying doing your best to stay focused on what matters most.

[00:11:14] You know, which what we found in talking with customers and, you know, research supporting this as well from from Sapien, as well as, you know, from Gartner and Gallup and others is just staying focused on performance, engagement and retention.

[00:11:28] I also think that it's increasingly important for HR teams to have data about those things and to be equipped with data and then go to their leaders and managers elsewhere in the business and make sure that they see that data as well.

[00:11:44] Like it's one thing for HR to be, you know, begging people to do something like, hey, can you do this HR homework? And it's another thing to show them like, hey, retention is a problem on your team.

[00:11:56] Just on your team, retention has cost us $750K this year in replacing people and lost productivity.

[00:12:05] And in order to avoid that, and you're higher, by the way, than other parts of our organization.

[00:12:11] Here are the three things that the data that we have suggest that we could consider doing and the actions that you and your management team can take in order to address that issue.

[00:12:22] And being specific and surgical about that, instead of just, you know, unfortunately like the boil the ocean approach, I think allows HR teams to maintain their own sanity and not become.

[00:12:35] Just like the outsourced team that deals with any people related issue and it allows them to truly partner and hold leaders and managers accountable for what you need from them with regard to people in performance.

[00:12:48] So really, you know, to summarize it comes back to like HR teams having that data, having the information that they need so they can take the right actions with the right people in their organization to see these things happen and have it not all fall on HR shoulders.

[00:13:06] Yeah. Well, and at the same time, they're focused on what's the story and oftentimes there's different stories, right? Like the one that you just described, the story to the manager.

[00:13:18] Right. Here's how do I, you know, help them empower them with that data so that they can actually do something about it. Right. It's one thing to be collecting all this performance information. It's another thing to be acting on it.

[00:13:32] I think that's where a lot of organizations, you know, fall down is they that next step of, okay, how do I help people now take action? Not just single, single people action. Right. You know, I've got to put this person on a pep and now I got to deal with that.

[00:13:50] It's real action so that managers can build the best teams that they can possibly build. And I think some of that goes back to learning and development from a manager perspective, because not all leaders managers are created equal.

[00:14:07] And at the end of the day, not everybody's going to be great about giving performance feedback and understanding and being able to articulate the message and what to do with that performance feedback.

[00:14:17] So I think that's the other side of the coin. HR has to be focused on how are we going to develop these people? We've given them the tools, we've given them the data. Now we got to help them to utilize it to take advantage of it to build those teams that are really going to deliver for the organization.

[00:14:38] Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, not all leaders and managers are created equal should be on t-shirts, right?

[00:14:46] But yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, it's very common in organizations for leaders and managers to be told things like you need to give your people more feedback.

[00:14:56] But then we're not sure what feedback even means in that sentence. People don't know how to do it. There's a there's actually science of how to give recognition, there's science on how to give encouragement, there's science on how to deliver, you know, critique or observations and redirection.

[00:15:11] And then we need to, to your point, not just give generic guidance to managers, but just like, hey, here's what you're accountable for. Here's how you do it. Here's what we expect. Whenever we say more frequent feedback, we mean you should be talking with your people every week or every other week.

[00:15:28] And you should be giving them the right mix of recognition, encouragement and redirection and observations and critique. And that should be focused on their performance and helping them grow.

[00:15:39] And by the way, we're going to also tell all the individual contributors in the organization that this is what they should expect from you so they can hold you accountable to.

[00:15:47] And here's how to do it. You know, and in 15.5, of course, we have tools that help managers do this and we have the ability for HR leaders to assign actions to different managers like this.

[00:15:58] But you do want to build those rhythms and those practices. And then also at 15.5, we've invested in what we call manager co-pilot. So it's there to help managers. So you can ask manager co-pilot like, hey, how should I give recognition to my people?

[00:16:12] And it'll give examples on how to do that well. Or, hey, I have a tough conversation coming up with someone. Will you help me prepare?

[00:16:20] And then we have content as well because sometimes you want to listen to the course and you want the micro learning or you want the hour long or we have some things that are learning journeys.

[00:16:29] You want that series of how to get better at goals. And then we have coaching as well, you know, on top of that.

[00:16:35] So really at 15.5, we're about meeting managers where they are and helping HR teams meet their managers where they are in that journey.

[00:16:43] Because as you said, Terry, not all leaders and managers are created equal and we do have to support them on their growth and not just expect like, hey, get better at priorities or hey, give your people feedback or hey, why don't you recognize your people is going to be enough direction and support for them?

[00:17:00] Yeah, some people are natural, but it's rare. Right. And they, and sometimes you'll figure it out, but it might take a lot longer than you want them to. Right? So yeah, I think that's great sort of giving them the information when they need it in the moment.

[00:17:17] Versus, okay, I'm going to go through this, I'm gonna go sit through this three day training and then three months from now, I'm going to do performance evaluations and I'm going to figure out how to use that information.

[00:17:28] I learned three months ago in these conversations. So yeah, it really is all tied together.

[00:17:37] Yeah, that in the moment part is so important because whenever you think about many of the situations that say like an HR BP is pulled into, they're often pulled into situations that are way too late.

[00:17:49] Like a manager has been trying maybe or not trying to handle something on their own and then they come in and they say like, hey, I need to talk to you about so and so like they haven't been performing for.

[00:18:01] You know, while and it's like, well, how long does that happen? It's like nine months. It's like, well, where were we for the previous eight months and three weeks on talking about this? Right. But if you meet managers in the moment and you say like, hey, here's the expectations we have for you as a manager.

[00:18:16] You should be able to have these types of conversations with your people.

[00:18:20] The conversation that lets them achieve their goals, the conversation where you're recognizing progress and wins, the conversation where you're encouraging them.

[00:18:27] The conversation where you're giving them feedback and you're noticing when they're off track and you're unblocking them and you're helping them make better decisions.

[00:18:34] And these are the competencies or what we expect from managers. Here's how you're supported on this. You have the moment by moment support. Of course, you have the HR team when you need it.

[00:18:43] You have these courses for some of you were giving you coaching that collection of things will take so much pressure off of an HR team.

[00:18:53] Because managers are actually managing them and leaders are actually leading whenever you hold them accountable in that way.

[00:19:01] Instead of like, oh, these people issues, we're always just going to run to HR because we don't know how to talk to people.

[00:19:08] What do I how do I know? I'm just a director. How would I know how to have a conversation with my people about how they need to improve?

[00:19:15] Yeah, we don't. We don't have as many manager real managers as we used to. Most most of them are doer managers, so their time has been compressed in terms of doing the kinds of things that they might do around performance.

[00:19:32] So that's what it becomes to me a higher burden on on managers to make that stuff happen because they got their day job and they're managing a team and trying to keep all that together.

[00:19:45] Yeah, it's an excellent call out. You know, I've definitely seen research in the last couple years about how people managers are asked to do more than ever.

[00:19:53] Many of them are player coaches, you know, so it's like a you're an IC, but you also have six direct reports.

[00:19:59] But that's why I think it's so important to clarify what we even expect from people managers like my experience is that most organizations, I would say 90 plus percent.

[00:20:11] Do not have a clear set of expectations on what it even means to be a manager.

[00:20:16] So then what's happening? People are looking at their own experience of how they've been managed in the past, maybe at other companies and they're like, well, this is what a manager is because this is how I've been managed.

[00:20:26] You know, and for some people it's like, well, I approve PTO and you know when someone's mad about something, they come to me and then other people are like, no, I have this system that I use that includes like prioritize goals for people and one on ones and feedback.

[00:20:39] And this is how we make decisions and this is how we have team meetings. And the reality is, is most organizations have that whole range.

[00:20:46] They have people who never want to become managers in the first place. They have people who have six certifications and how to be a manager.

[00:20:53] And to your point, managers are busier than ever. So we really have to simplify what it means to be a people manager and then support people, as you said, right in that moment when they need the support.

[00:21:05] I mean, let's face it. It's hard to tell people they're not doing something the way you need them to do it, right?

[00:21:11] Nobody likes to have those conversations. And so the part of the learning process is how do I have those conversations where they're not threatening?

[00:21:21] I understand that they don't know how to do something yet or they haven't quite mastered it or maybe they need some more training or whatever the case might be.

[00:21:31] And not everybody knows how to have those kind of conversations.

[00:21:35] Yeah, it is a challenge and it's a great call out. I mean, I wrote a book about people management and I still find myself needing to continue to improve as a people manager.

[00:21:47] Sometimes it's not that I don't know what to do. It's just like, hey, we're moving fast or like, hey, you fall out of a habit or something else.

[00:21:56] So the reality is, is like we do need to normalize that every people manager needs a level of investment.

[00:22:04] Even if you've written a book on people management, you need to continue to hone what you've done or you've written 10 books.

[00:22:11] We're very fortunate to have done some work with Marshall Goldsmith at 15.5 and he's extraordinary and he's written bestseller after bestseller about these topics.

[00:22:21] And he still is open about how he has a coach.

[00:22:26] I mean, this is the world leading expert on leadership and behavior change.

[00:22:32] And even he has a coach, right? So for somebody who's just getting into management or has only been managing for a few years or hey, I've been a CEO now for 10 years or wherever level you at,

[00:22:43] you still need that level of investment and accountability so you can stay sharp on what it means to lead and manage people.

[00:22:50] And that's where I think AI can help. You don't have to have a coach sitting there every moment.

[00:22:56] AI can sort of help redirect your thinking, right? Help you think about the problem in a different way in the moment.

[00:23:04] And that's really what most people need.

[00:23:07] Yeah, exactly. That's how we think about it, right?

[00:23:11] AI is not a substitute for what it's like to work with a human coach.

[00:23:16] But to your point, AI can provide that on-demand 24-7 support as someone is doing something or preparing for a conversation.

[00:23:24] Like at 15.5, we have Spark AI and we also manage a co-pilot.

[00:23:29] And we believe AI can help with things like, hey, you're about to send someone some recognition through a high five.

[00:23:35] Here's how you'd make it better. Or hey, you're going to do a performance review.

[00:23:40] Let's summarize all the things that you've documented about this individual through the year to provide the foundation for that and can supercharge those types of processes.

[00:23:50] But then also to your point, it can provide that guidance in a moment where you can say,

[00:23:55] like, hey, I'm about to have a tough conversation about missed goals with one of my team members.

[00:24:02] Would you help me prepare for that and manage your co-pilot?

[00:24:05] It's like, yeah, and we'll help you prepare right in that moment.

[00:24:08] So then how do we take the data up a level?

[00:24:11] Because we now as HR have to translate the story to leadership.

[00:24:18] And what we found in some of our research is performance data is not really at the top of the list of things that organizations are providing to leadership on a regular basis.

[00:24:30] I don't know why. I don't know if that's because they don't have the data, they don't know how to tell the story,

[00:24:36] they don't know exactly what leadership wants or needs around that information.

[00:24:42] But the more strategic organizations are providing that kind of information to leadership on a regular basis.

[00:24:49] So what are some of those metrics that the executives need to understand?

[00:24:55] Because this is really what's driving the business.

[00:24:57] I think people, you can think about performance as just being one, just making sure these people are doing the job.

[00:25:05] But at the end of the day, it's about if they don't do their job and somebody else can't do their job,

[00:25:11] then the organization doesn't achieve its goals.

[00:25:14] And I've got to tell leadership that we're going to miss our numbers.

[00:25:20] Yeah.

[00:25:21] Yeah, it is a great call out.

[00:25:23] And some of my favorite research from Sapien is about the importance of metrics for strategic HR

[00:25:31] and how strategic HR, one of the things that's correlated with the right behaviors that drive it,

[00:25:36] and this impact is just regularly reviewing metrics with other executive teams.

[00:25:40] So whenever I think about what should those metrics be, we're definitely seeing that organizations are interested in performance,

[00:25:49] especially what's going on with their high performing employees.

[00:25:52] And that includes things like, again, performance from like performance ratings and are people flight risks

[00:25:59] and other things that you can be measuring during performance reviews.

[00:26:02] It includes engagement because of course engagement data,

[00:26:05] engagement is correlated with higher performance and business performance as well.

[00:26:10] It includes retention, especially regrettable versus non-regrettable turnover.

[00:26:15] Oftentimes, organizations will look at things like retention in first year as an example of like a way to break those things down

[00:26:22] or look at different demographic cuts.

[00:26:24] Organizations are also looking at compensation frequently.

[00:26:27] And importantly, many of these things, as we were talking about earlier,

[00:26:30] should be translated into the business impact as directly as possible.

[00:26:35] Right?

[00:26:35] So and then alongside that, you know, 15.5 really focuses on performance engagement and retention

[00:26:41] and all the data and demographic cuts and looking at different groups and departments there.

[00:26:45] And where should we take action?

[00:26:46] And hey, what's the number behind the number on some of these things?

[00:26:50] And strategic HR, of course, are also be talking about talent acquisition statistics.

[00:26:55] So things like offer acceptance rate, candidate MPS, pipeline metrics, you know,

[00:26:59] where are you losing people in the funnel on talent acquisition?

[00:27:02] But if you organize things through as you're, hey, we're looking at our employee experience

[00:27:07] and here's the parts of our employee experience that are going well

[00:27:11] and here's the parts of our employee experience that are causing risk,

[00:27:15] then I think that coherent story is an exciting story for HR to be able to tell.

[00:27:20] You know, because many of the things that HR is exposed to are private and anecdotal,

[00:27:25] like the telling the data story can be hard because it's like, hey,

[00:27:29] we know things about this that we can't tell you about yet.

[00:27:33] But having that regular cadence of, you know, even here's the seven to 10 metrics

[00:27:39] that we report on with regard to performance, engagement, retention and talent acquisition metrics

[00:27:45] and just building that as a rhythm can be really powerful.

[00:27:49] Yeah, I've done a couple of podcasts recently with chief marketing officers

[00:27:54] or chief experience officers.

[00:27:56] And, you know, one thing I think about is take advantage of that relationship with them

[00:28:02] because they can help you with the story.

[00:28:05] Like we tend to be sort of the numbers people, like we're crunching the data,

[00:28:09] we're trying to figure out what's happening.

[00:28:12] You know, talk to your marketing partner.

[00:28:14] How do I, it's not a spin, it's a way of, you know, telling the story to,

[00:28:20] because every executive in that room is going to want to hear the story

[00:28:24] maybe a little bit differently.

[00:28:26] It's going to matter differently to the head of finance versus maybe the CEO

[00:28:30] versus, you know, the chief technology officer.

[00:28:35] That story may need to be slightly different for each one of them to really resonate with,

[00:28:41] okay, we have a problem that we need to do something about or, hey, this is great.

[00:28:45] Let's do more of that because it's, you know, it's really successful.

[00:28:51] Yeah, that's an excellent call out and I think could be its own podcast episode, right?

[00:28:55] Where, and even the words you chose in there,

[00:28:57] one of my favorite authors in this area is Nancy Duarte.

[00:29:01] And one of her books is actually called Resonate for the reasons you described.

[00:29:06] And then she has another one called Data Story about telling stories about data.

[00:29:09] So if people aren't familiar with her work, definitely worth a look.

[00:29:13] And then to your point on partnering with marketing, you know,

[00:29:16] one of the most important things I learned from the chief people officer at

[00:29:20] bandwidth when I worked there, Rebecca, who was exceptional,

[00:29:24] was you do have to make it a thing.

[00:29:26] You have to tell the real story and not just assume that everyone's going to be as

[00:29:31] excited about these people services or people and culture or HR initiatives as you are.

[00:29:36] Like you have to talk about the impact.

[00:29:38] You have to show the data.

[00:29:40] You have to talk about what is and what can be showing the vision,

[00:29:43] the before and after like here's where we're going.

[00:29:46] This is why it matters because you do have to tell that story.

[00:29:49] And then also, Terry, one of the points you made was so important around

[00:29:53] the importance of tailoring your message to the audience, right?

[00:29:56] And knowing what matters to that specific person whenever you're going in and you're

[00:30:01] saying like, hey, your team disengaged.

[00:30:03] And then the person's like, well, you know, my team's hitting my numbers.

[00:30:07] Why should I care? You know, like you have to be able to tailor the story on

[00:30:10] what matters to an individual.

[00:30:12] Yeah, we're people. We're not numbers, you know?

[00:30:15] And I think that story needs to be told.

[00:30:19] And, you know, I think one of the things they should be talking to leadership about

[00:30:23] is who are the amazing people in the organization like and what possibilities

[00:30:28] are we letting pass by?

[00:30:30] We're sort of not taking those people and letting them run with something.

[00:30:35] Right. We don't always have to put everybody in a box and say, well,

[00:30:38] this is what they're good at.

[00:30:39] Let's send them off to do this.

[00:30:41] And I think that's where performance you can really start to gauge those

[00:30:44] kinds of things. The standouts, the real high performers

[00:30:49] really start to stand out.

[00:30:51] Yeah, I love the call out on, you know, there's individuals behind these numbers.

[00:30:56] And that takes me back to the importance of the data so you can understand

[00:31:01] what's going on and then taking action through managers, because the reality

[00:31:06] is your CHRO, it's a 1000 person organization or 2000.

[00:31:10] You're looking at some roll up that says like, hey, you know,

[00:31:14] you have 150 to 300 high performing people.

[00:31:17] You have these people in the middle. You have this many low performers.

[00:31:20] Like you can't as an individual go and have the right individualized

[00:31:25] conversation with each of those people.

[00:31:28] However, your managers not only can, they should,

[00:31:31] and you should hold them accountable for doing that.

[00:31:33] Right. Like forgiving that individual the support that they need so they can

[00:31:38] either improve their performance to an acceptable level or find a different

[00:31:43] role in the organization that makes sense for them or take their career

[00:31:46] to the next level. And that's one of the many reasons that, you know,

[00:31:50] the partnership between HR and managers is so important where HR is providing

[00:31:55] that foundation.

[00:31:56] HR is looking at what's going on in the whole organization with regard

[00:31:59] to performance, engagement, retention.

[00:32:02] And then it's on leaders and managers to take care of their

[00:32:04] organizations and their own people in partnership with HR and not just

[00:32:08] outsource that responsibility to HR.

[00:32:11] Yeah. Yeah, they can't do it alone.

[00:32:14] It's a definitely a group effort.

[00:32:17] So I have an unrelated question.

[00:32:19] Where did the name 15-5 come from?

[00:32:22] Yeah, great question.

[00:32:23] So there was this practice that originated at Patagonia where managers

[00:32:28] were asked to put together a short report.

[00:32:31] So basically the CEO of Patagonia could read them while he was off

[00:32:34] like hiking and surfing and mountaineering.

[00:32:38] And 15-5 really believes in the importance of that relationship between

[00:32:42] HR and managers, but also between managers and ICs.

[00:32:45] So the idea was that you could do this weekly check-in that took 15 minutes

[00:32:50] for an IC to complete and then five minutes for a manager to review

[00:32:55] and comment on.

[00:32:56] And it really was intended to supercharge the relationship between

[00:33:00] managers and ICs by providing this regular structured rhythm of we're going

[00:33:05] to talk about your goals and priorities.

[00:33:07] We're going to check in on how you are as an individual.

[00:33:10] We're going to provide wins and challenges and have conversations about that.

[00:33:14] If you're blocked, you have an opportunity to surface that.

[00:33:17] And then, hey, we're going to encourage this weekly habit of

[00:33:20] recognizing other people as well.

[00:33:22] So 15-5 is about bringing all those things together to support that

[00:33:26] personal connection as well as the performance on a weekly basis.

[00:33:30] I love that.

[00:33:31] It made me think this is a habit.

[00:33:34] You have to form it as a habit with people.

[00:33:37] It's like brushing your teeth.

[00:33:39] It's just something you've got to do if you want the organization to be successful.

[00:33:45] That's what it has to be habit forming.

[00:33:48] Yeah, I agree.

[00:33:49] I mean, effective people management is definitely a habit.

[00:33:53] It's a practice, right?

[00:33:54] It's like yoga or running or something.

[00:33:59] It's not like, oh, I did that once and I'm good.

[00:34:01] And I would say the same thing about manager development as well.

[00:34:05] As we keep talking about, even people who've been leading and managing for 20

[00:34:09] years, 25 years, 30 years still have room to grow.

[00:34:13] Maybe not always as much on the knowledge side, but on the actual practice side

[00:34:18] is so important as well.

[00:34:20] Yeah.

[00:34:21] Is there any big evolutions of the product that we can expect to see from

[00:34:26] A.O.T. soon?

[00:34:28] Yeah, thanks for asking.

[00:34:29] You know, we're really excited about some advancements that we're making in

[00:34:33] AI like we talked about with things like manager co-pilot, but then also in

[00:34:38] what we call our HR outcomes dashboard, which allows organizations to look at

[00:34:43] performance engagement and retention and how those critical HR outcomes relate

[00:34:49] over time and what's going on in the organization.

[00:34:52] And not just look at the data, but also dive deeper and then take

[00:34:55] specific actions through managers in order to improve those outcomes.

[00:35:00] So one of the things that we find is that almost every organization runs

[00:35:04] performance reviews, even if they don't call it that, like they do a version

[00:35:07] where people are getting assessed.

[00:35:09] Sometimes it's for things like making decisions about who should get a

[00:35:14] promotion, other times it's more focused on growth, but almost everyone

[00:35:17] does that.

[00:35:18] Almost everyone has a voice of employee program where they're getting

[00:35:21] feedback, but the challenge is not having data.

[00:35:26] It's looking at the data together.

[00:35:27] It's understanding where to take action and then actually taking the

[00:35:31] action and seeing the impact.

[00:35:32] And that's a key part of the investments that 15.5 is making in our

[00:35:36] platform right now, based on what we've heard from the market.

[00:35:39] That's awesome.

[00:35:40] Well, Jeff, what's one thing that you could leave the audience with today

[00:35:46] that they could go away and start to do to help them build this muscle

[00:35:50] around, you know, either whether it's being better at creating my own goals

[00:35:57] or being better at helping other people to understand how they connect to

[00:36:02] their goals and just helping performance management process, whether

[00:36:06] it's personal or as a leader, is there anything that you can tell them that,

[00:36:10] Hey, you could go do this tomorrow and this would start you on this journey?

[00:36:15] Yeah.

[00:36:15] Great.

[00:36:16] Great question.

[00:36:16] So the first thing that comes to mind is I just want to express a

[00:36:20] lot of gratitude and appreciation for what is often thankless, which

[00:36:24] is how much HR teams really care about people.

[00:36:28] I'm not sure I've actually ever met someone in HR who didn't either

[00:36:33] start their career in HR or move into HR because of how much they cared about

[00:36:37] people and caring about people's really heavy burden, especially whenever

[00:36:41] you have to deliver the business impact on top.

[00:36:43] So firstly, thank you so much for that.

[00:36:46] Pat yourself on the back, right?

[00:36:47] Pat yourself on the back.

[00:36:48] You earned it.

[00:36:49] You earned it.

[00:36:50] You know, but get yourself, you know, a spa day or something.

[00:36:53] You've definitely earned it.

[00:36:54] You haven't been thanked enough for everything that you do in terms of,

[00:36:58] you know, something that you could get going on right away.

[00:37:01] We talked about this, but just like what's the look at your, you know,

[00:37:05] HR calendar, the employee experiences are providing.

[00:37:08] What are the ceremonies that you already have or could have that

[00:37:11] lay that foundation of data around performance engagement and retention?

[00:37:16] And are ask yourself, like, are we getting the most we could out

[00:37:20] of those through our managers?

[00:37:22] Like, are we holding our managers accountable for taking the right

[00:37:25] actions out of things like performance reviews to help their people grow

[00:37:29] or improve?

[00:37:30] Are we asking our managers to take the right actions out of engagement

[00:37:33] surveys so they can help people where they need it and think about not

[00:37:38] just like what additional things could we put on HR's back, but are

[00:37:44] we holding leaders and managers accountable at the right level for

[00:37:48] improving their performance and the engagement and retention of their people?

[00:37:53] And how might we better invest in that partnership instead

[00:37:58] of just going it alone?

[00:37:59] So it's, it's extraordinary what HR teams are able to do and what they're asked to do.

[00:38:06] I regularly talk to HR teams and it's like, well, what do you have going on

[00:38:10] in the list of things that is going on?

[00:38:12] That's new is like 10 minutes of just recapping and it's like, well, how

[00:38:16] many people do you have?

[00:38:17] And it's like eight, you know, and it's amazing.

[00:38:21] So thank you so much, but get more out of your leaders and managers

[00:38:25] as well and build that partnership.

[00:38:28] That's awesome.

[00:38:29] Well, I want to thank you for joining me today, Jeff.

[00:38:32] This has been a great conversation.

[00:38:34] I also want to thank our producers, the brand method media group, our

[00:38:37] marketing team, and I want to thank you for tuning in today.

[00:38:42] That's all the time we have for this episode of HR.

[00:38:44] We have a problem.

[00:38:45] If you've enjoyed this episode, you can subscribe to it on

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[00:38:49] We'd love it if you'd leave us a review or send us a note.

[00:38:53] Tell us what other topics you'd be interested in hearing about.

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[00:38:58] We will be back in two weeks with another episode of HR.

[00:39:01] We have a problem.

[00:39:03] Bye everyone.

[00:39:04] Bye Jeff.

[00:39:05] Hi Terry.

[00:39:05] Thank you.

[00:39:06] Thanks for having me.