HR, We Have a Problem - How to personalize the employee experience and why the one-size-fits-all engagement strategy no longer works.

[00:00:00] The turnover is obviously a, you know, I always consider that a lagging indicator. Sometimes it's, you know, I always found doing exit interviews exhausting because I felt like, oh, we could have done something about that and kept them. But, you know, turnover for sure is an indicator. I really like the employee feedback loops. So I've been huge on engagement surveys, satisfaction surveys. And you can target them towards different things, whether it's a big survey or a big survey.

[00:00:30] Or some sort of a pulse survey is super helpful because you got to have the employee voice. Welcome to the HR Huddle Podcast, presented by Sapient Insights Group, the ultimate resource for all things HR. It's time to get in the huddle.

[00:00:50] Hello everyone. Welcome back to the HR Huddle. I'm your host, Terri Zipper, CEO and Managing Partner at Sapient Insights Group. And we're back for another exciting episode of HR We Have a Problem. This is the show where we like to break down the big and most relevant HR issues of the day. We help you make sense of what they mean for you.

[00:01:18] And we talk about what you might do about them. Joining me today is Pam Myers. Pam has 30 years of experience in HR, executive leadership, administration. She's worked across a lot of different industries, including healthcare, manufacturing, tech pharma, international development, insurance. I mean, she's covered it all. Welcome, Pam. It's great to have you on the show. Thanks, Terri. It's great to be here.

[00:01:45] So Pam and I met last year while we worked on some HR systems strategy work with her. Pam, given your work in people and culture, I know one of your passions is the importance of the employee experience. Anywhere from sort of drawing on the, bringing out the best in the employees and ensuring the organization is meeting their needs

[00:02:08] to how tech contributes to that experience and provides meaningful information to leadership about what they should be doing and what they should stop doing. So I was hoping we could talk about that and what inspired you and kind of what you did about it. So does that sound like a good plan to you? Sounds great. Sounds like a fun conversation. All right, then let's get into the huddle.

[00:02:35] So it might be good to start, just kind of set the stage a little bit. I'm really curious. I always like to hear about people's personal experiences. What was something that inspired you to really focus on the employee experience? And can you share a personal story that you experienced that might have helped make you feel more engaged at work? Like what was it that stood out in that experience? Yeah, thanks. That's a great question.

[00:03:01] I think for me, really, it started from the very beginning. I started my career in benefits. So it was sort of all about supporting people, helping them. You know, in that case, it was, you know, what kind of needs did they have in their life that you could help meet? And that went on to things like really just careers, right? I love seeing people, you know, get the dream job that they wanted or try new things.

[00:03:27] I really encourage people to, you know, look across the organization and continuously learn. And that's, I get excited when people are really sort of living into that for themselves. And so I think that's, that's really the heart of what drives me around the employee experience, because it's not just that for any particular individual. For me personally, I think, you know, everybody has an experience that, you know, may have sort of launched them.

[00:03:56] And mine was really a leader who, you know, kind of believed in me and did encouraged me to do a variety of things, you know, start working on things that I had no experience in. Right. She would just drop me into it and always right there with me. She was, you know, wonderfully experienced. But I think that really helped me, you know, understand how I can continue to learn and try new things and be successful.

[00:04:25] And, you know, if I have the right people around me, you know, supporting me too. So that's really kind of where it all began. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot, you know, managers can do sometimes, you know, people say, well, people don't leave jobs, they leave their managers. And it's not like you have to be their best friend or you have to be the nicest person in the world or you have to be lenient or whatever.

[00:04:49] I think people are looking out, looking to you as a manager to, you know, help them navigate the world, the company, the organization, how they get through it. And that's, you know, I mean, that's a really great point that, you know, they were looking out for you, trying to help you step into new things versus, you know, trying to keep you where you are because you're good at what you do and they don't want to lose you. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's that's huge.

[00:05:16] I think that goes a long way, no matter what else you do in your job, helping people be curious and helping them learn more about the organization instead of being siloed. Yeah. Is pretty significant. How would you I mean, it's hard to define the employee experience, right? It's very individualistic.

[00:05:38] But, you know, are there some things that you think about from an engagement perspective, trying to trying to get that engagement sort of good, better, best approaches? Yeah, I think we like it's evolved over time. Right. Like it used to be like, oh, you know, maybe engagement really. I mean, we didn't even talk about engagement in the past, but it could have just been, OK, are you satisfied with your job? And then it's sort of evolved to, you know, you're are you valued?

[00:06:08] Are you involved? And I think, you know, workers needs have evolved to, you know, then there's sort of like the next level is do they have passion? Are they really driven towards, you know, the organization and its people and and the work they're doing? But I like to look at engagement, too, as a sort of a holistic picture, which it is.

[00:06:31] Right. And figuring out what what is of most interest to certain people, like in some cases, it's the organization. Do they feel good about the organization they're working for? Other people, it might just be about, you know, compensation and benefits, which I think in a lot of ways are just table stakes. But that might be more important for some people. The professional development, obviously, that's a huge piece. Do they see a career path and a future? You know, do they like the co-workers they work with?

[00:07:02] You know, it's that old Gallup survey question. Do you have at least one friend at work? Right. Which is sort of the stickiness, what keeps people at an employer. And so really figuring out. You know, there is figuring out now, I think it's much more individual. Right. Because big generalizations, you're going to miss a whole lot of people. So, you know, what really appeals to those people and how does that change over their own life cycle at the company? Right. Or their own their own life.

[00:07:32] Right. Depending on what kind of stages in life, some of those points of engagement may change for you. So, and that really challenges organizations. Yeah. Well, and kind of old school was, you know, the company picnic and, you know, bringing people together that way. Now it's much more focused on rewards and recognition and sort of how do we recognize people?

[00:08:00] How do we get them engaged and involved in the initiatives of the organization more so than just, you know, the annual Christmas party or that kind of thing? Well, and some people still like those types of that interaction. Right. They're looking for social at work. And then other people are like, no, I have a whole other life. I don't need that at work. Yeah. And that kind of evolves too. Right. Like I remember when I was younger going to everything. Like I, cause you wanted to meet new people.

[00:08:29] You wanted to learn everything you could. And then over time you're like, eh, I don't know if I'm going to go to the Christmas party this year. Yeah. I've definitely heard that from some people, you know, and the challenge too, with, you know, remote work or hybrid work, that there are people who really are hungry for that social interaction more than others. And how do you figure out how to balance that and, you know, really in the end, get the best results out of people for the organization too.

[00:08:59] Yeah. Well, and right now, as much as, you know, a lot of organizations and individuals are kind of, you know, wavering on, do we go back to work? Do we not go back to work, you know, back to the office rather? But at the same time, I noticed people are really craving interaction. And if you've been working at home for the last five years and you're not really in a position where you do travel or you live near an office and go in regularly,

[00:09:28] the Zoom thing can get really old. It's just not the same. I know when I go away for a week, you know, I might be traveling. I'm out with people every day. And then I come back and the next week I'm sitting in my office by myself and I'm just kind of like, you know, you just, that's that social interaction. And it's not just personal. It's people, they learn more that way. Right.

[00:09:53] I mean, I don't know about you, but in the early days, that's how you learned everything about the organization was just hearing other people talk in the, you know, queue next to you or whatever. Right. Or just sitting in the, yeah. Yeah. Having lunch with people, you know, you, you don't necessarily get that same level of interaction over Zoom. Definitely not. Sometimes I crave just a phone call. Right. Right.

[00:10:19] Like, oh, I would just, you know, I've had some people recently say, hey, how about if we just talk on the phone? I'm like, yes, that would be great. What's a phone? That's right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of this comes back to leadership too, though. And I think that's driving an organization's ability to create that experience.

[00:10:44] And so I know you've been a chief people officer in your career. How do you define your leadership philosophy? And, and how have you seen that sort of impact the company's culture? Because I mean, that culture is really going to drive whether there's an experience, a good experience, a bad experience, or, you know, no experience at all. Right. Yeah, definitely.

[00:11:07] I mean, I mean, obviously leaders have, you know, there's results that the leaders have to deliver on where I, I understand what those results are. But I err on the side of so how do you get the best results out of your people now? Yeah. Right. And so, you know, I think the leadership piece there is that some other, you know, maybe styles that used to work in the workplace don't work anymore. Right. Right.

[00:11:35] And people want, you know, they do expect a leader who is concerned about them. Right. Who makes the effort to learn something about them, you know, and help guide them, you know, whether it's guiding them in their career or providing the resources for the work they need to do. But, you know, and not micromanage them.

[00:11:58] So autonomy is a pretty important piece in there that, you know, I would imagine people have always felt, but it's certainly being demanded by workers now. You know, workers want to, you know, be able to, you know, have their own, you know, thoughts and ideas listened to and also get the guidance from leaders.

[00:12:19] So it's that day-to-day interaction and, you know, it starts really, you know, we need the leadership to do it, but it's also that frontline management that we oftentimes don't give the same support and training. And so, and we, in most leadership, right, people get promoted because they did whatever they were doing well. Yeah.

[00:12:41] So once they move into that, how are we supporting them day-to-day in just, you know, addressing individual employee issues, right, and still get done the results they're supposed to deliver as well? Because they're not just managing people. They're usually, you know, they have their own work that they have to do as well. So I think to me, it's really focusing on the interaction and the support and building that trust with the people.

[00:13:10] Because otherwise it's going to be difficult for them to get results from people. Yeah. Yeah. I was always impressed with the, in organizations when they knew my name, like the leadership, you weren't just an employee. They knew who you were and they would refer to you by name.

[00:13:31] And I've seen organizations where you would never expect anybody above your manager or maybe another level up to know who you were and what you did. And I don't know, that was always impressive to me. I hated those stuffy places where, I worked for an organization once where there was a certain floor in the building that, you know, you had to be a certain privilege to be able to go to that floor.

[00:14:00] Like that's, I don't know if that still goes on, but that feels old school to me, right? It does. So, yeah, I think you got to know your people and pay attention to what's happening. You got to be visible. Yeah. And I think, you know, not everybody, I mean, I do have that interest. So I love to hear, like you said, what's somebody's story, right? What brought them to where they are? I love to hear.

[00:14:26] One of the organizations I was with, the CEO used to do like a monthly kind of a round table-ish, a lunch, right? And invite people, employees from across the company. And the questions that got the most engagement were really when you asked people about what are you excited about in your life right now, right?

[00:14:51] If they asked about what's the work you're doing that's exciting, that wasn't always as engaging a conversation. But you ask them just in general. Sometimes it was a work project they were on. But then... Optimize your business with a workforce AI edge powered by Vizier. Make smarter decisions and achieve better outcomes with real-time AI insights delivered to every people leader. Explore more at V-I-S-I-E-R dot com.

[00:15:20] So then they just engage, right? They start talking to each other and, oh, I used to do that. You know, we found out somebody was a, you know, huge into genealogy and somebody else jumped in. And so then you're building those relationships, right? And that translates into the work that people are doing without a doubt. So... It helps. And not everybody is forthcoming. Yeah.

[00:15:47] But it does help when people know something personal about you, right? Like you're a real person. You're not just a marketing analyst, right? Like I know other stuff besides, you know, what I'm sitting here doing at my desk every day. So... Yeah. I mean, that's huge. You know, you... I know you've got also got a background around data and data analytics.

[00:16:11] And I think that's become one of the keys to helping leadership understand what's happening in the organization from an employee experience and engagement perspective. What are some of the key metrics and kind of what do you advise people to be looking at or paying attention to when it comes to these metrics? Yeah. I mean, the turnover is obviously a, you know, I always consider that a lagging indicator.

[00:16:39] Sometimes it's, you know, I always found doing X in interviews exhausting because I felt like, oh, we could have done something about that and kept them. But, you know, turnover for sure is an indicator. I really like the employee feedback loops. So I've been huge on engagement surveys, satisfaction surveys. And you can target them towards different things. Whether it's a big survey or some sort of a pulse survey is super helpful because you got to have the employee voice.

[00:17:09] And then we also know that not... Engagement surveys aren't always the full voice. So depending on the culture in the organization, I've been in organizations where, you know, you could get 80 to 90% of people to participate in the survey, which is out of this world. Yeah. Other organizations where it's, you know, still a reasonable... What survey people would say is it's still a reasonable response. But, you know, there's a whole number of people who aren't participating either because they

[00:17:39] don't care. Maybe they didn't have time. But most of the time it's because they either didn't care or they don't think their voice matters. And so what are the other feedback loops? So, you know, satisfaction surveys. Most of the organizations I've been in, you know, we do lots of onboarding surveys. So very quickly we can get information and make changes to things. I'm excited about some of the metrics that are popping up really with machine learning

[00:18:08] and AI where the systems can watch the behavior of your employees. And know, for instance, hey, generally this employee could even be down to the employee level, right? Is moving jobs every two years. And they've now been in a job for four years. And guess what? You probably should be checking in with them. So, you know, I think it's that's a real advancement, right?

[00:18:35] To be more predictive in our analytics so that we can keep watch of that. You know, and it can be, you know, could be performance related. You know, in manufacturing for sure where you can actually count and track work. You know, you can tell if, you know, you've had a really high performer and then suddenly things are starting to go down. You might need to check in with them and figure out what's going. So I think those are the more exciting things to me, even are how those predictive things

[00:19:04] fit into feedback loops from employees. Yeah. Do you think that information's getting down to the right level? Like do really the frontline supervisors and people on a day-to-day basis have that information? Or is it, you know, is it really being distilled down through the organization the way it needs to be in order to be effective? Yeah, it depends on the organization.

[00:19:31] I've worked for organizations where, you know, the leaders were hungry for that information. And we, you know, you want to protect it like I'm just thinking like surveys, right? You want to protect that anonymity for people. So, you know, there's a level at which you're not going to get the most detailed, but you're going to get enough information that you can, you know, sort of check it with people for accuracy.

[00:19:56] And then again, it's like these dashboards of information, a lot of times does stay at the top levels. Some of it for confidentiality reasons, but I've worked for one organization where it was down to, you know, as close as you could get without losing, you know, without making it too specific, right? Like turnover data and that sort of thing.

[00:20:20] You don't want to, you know, depends on what information you want to share related to, you know, why somebody's leaving. Yeah. If they're willing to share that and wanted to share that openly. Yeah. You know, I know you've also done some work in M&A across your career, and that can be a very disruptive time in an organization. A lot of organizations are going through this right now.

[00:20:48] There's been a lot of M&A activity over the last couple of years. And so what have you seen, or do you have any particular advice to people going through that? Like, what are some of the things they need to be thinking about during that transition to make sure they don't start to lose people? Or, I mean, because there's a huge expectation that, you know, duplicate jobs are going to be gone and that kind of thing.

[00:21:15] So there's a lot of agita, there's a lot of anxiety, but at the same time, you're building another, a new organization, right? What are people doing about that? I mean, what are some of the, are there some tricks and tips to help people through that? Because it's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Had some things that worked and some things that didn't, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. I do think, I think the important thing is sort of the quick engagement and a lot of

[00:21:44] communication, right? So, you know, listening to people, lots of questions and answers, even when you don't have the answer, you know, being honest, like, Hey, we're still looking at that. I do think making those changes, like if you know there's duplicate jobs and you're going to be doing that. I think the quicker you do that, the quicker people, you know, there's less, you know, like, let's stop the anxiety, right? Yeah. You know, if it's going to happen, it's unfortunate.

[00:22:14] And the sooner you make decisions about it, then maybe the better support you can give those people, whether it's like, you know, if somebody has got to leave, you know, the sooner you make those decisions, maybe you can give them more severance. Maybe you can give some career planning. Even had it where in some industries where, you know, there's enough sharing between, you

[00:22:39] know, the heads of HR that we say, Hey, we're unfortunately, this is about to happen in our company, or this has happened in our company and we've got great people out there. So, you know, you know, actually coordinating to try and help those people get jobs. So, you know, I think the quicker you do it, the more opportunity you have to support on the other end. And then I think there's, you know, there's a lot of listening, right?

[00:23:07] And if you aren't focused on building a culture, a culture will be created, right? Without you participating. So I think, you know, being clear about what are the values, what's the culture that you want the new organization to have is important to reinforce quickly, right? And start showing and rewarding those types of activities and trying to reward, you know,

[00:23:34] people coming together, people engaging in innovation or continuous improvement in how you're bringing the groups together. So I think that's key. I think the quicker you do it, usually you kind of get through that and then you can move on and get focused. Yeah. Yeah. And people underestimate the differences in culture.

[00:24:01] Well, I think that's been one of the, in my experience with M&A and I've done a fair bit myself. If you're trying to bring two different cultures together, you really need to look at whether that's going to work. That needs to be a huge part of the decision as to whether you acquire this company because it's, it, it, it can fail quickly. Yeah. If you're trying to bring together two very different cultures that are probably never going to mesh.

[00:24:31] I've, I've, I've seen it happen over and over again. Right. One organization I was with the, it, they weren't very, neither of the organizations were very large. So it was a little more manageable, but one organization, it was a technology group and they, their programmers and creators, developers had a habit of like, their process was to get in a room and sort of tear apart what people were presenting.

[00:25:01] And it was, you know, it was all super supportive. It was, you know, everybody was fully engaged in it. But when we brought in people from the other organization, you know, some people can probably guess the ending to this, right? They thought like, you're attacking me. Right. And this, you know, this is offensive and, and, you know, how, how can you do this? And you're doing it in this group.

[00:25:27] And so they didn't really, we, we didn't bring, do a good job of bringing them into the creative process and setting the stage for that trust and the values that this other team, you know, already had, cause they've been doing it for years. And so that became, you know, obviously there was a lot of upset when they first got together and we had to kind of backtrack and, and really help support, you know, how that process worked, you know, in the company.

[00:25:57] So, yeah. Well, and some of it, you know, at the end of the day, you own your career. And so these things are going to happen throughout the lifetime of your career, most likely, especially if you, you know, if you're moving, changing jobs, or even if you've been somewhere for 20 years, there is, it's very likely that you might be involved in a merger or some sort of acquisition and, or just some sort of overall transformation of the organization.

[00:26:27] Right. And so, you know, you have to think as an individual, how do I fit into this and what do I want to do and how do I want to engage in this? Right. I mean, there's, there's some, you know, personal responsibility here. I always say it's not always about the company or the manager. If you're not a willing participant, you know, you're, you're, you're not going to be satisfied. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:56] You, you've done some, I know you've got quite a few certifications. You've done a lot of continuous learning. Has that contributed to, do you think that's contributed to enhancing employee engagement? Like, do you, are those things that you would recommend people looking to sort of focus on this area, work on getting some of these certifications and. Yeah, I think certifications in general, you know, they just give you a time to, to really

[00:27:26] focus in on certain topics. I think for, you know, HR people, some of the basic, you know, SPHR and, and the SHRM certifications are sort of an important, maybe it's a rite of passage, but just to, you know, really give you sort of that broad base and, and, you know, show that you've, you've committed to that and, and understood that, you know, other certifications that I've had.

[00:27:53] So for instance, my, I have a GPHR, which is the Global Professional and Human Resources certificate, which came out later. I don't know, maybe 10 years ago. And at first I just ignored it. And then one of my staff members got the certification and I thought, oh, I probably should go try to do that. Even though it had been many years since I had studied for one of those exams. Yeah. And, and it, it did challenge me probably, you know, a lot of people like people who have

[00:28:21] a PMP certificate will say, you know, the, the training and learning you do for project management actually isn't always match what you're doing in the certification exam, but it's similar maybe for, for the GPHR too. But, you know, I just thought it was good to challenge myself and learn things. I, I think the best, you know, is to pick a topic that you're interested in, right? Like employee engagement things. I try to attend almost two webinars a week.

[00:28:50] There are tons of free things. I don't pay for any of that. Some of it does come from my certification through, through, you know, HRCI or SHRM. They put on a lot of free seminars. They've been doing a lot lately, you know, with changes in legislation and it's super helpful just to, it keeps you, you know, from the day to day that you're working on, it kind of makes you step back and kind of look at it more, you know, holistically kind of rise

[00:29:18] above your day to day work and think creatively and, and it's just great information. But I think that continuous learning is really important. And, and the, you know, the field of engagement is changing too, right? It changed from sort of employee engagement. Now the conversation is more about employee experience. And I, you know, I think it's evolving even a little bit further beyond that too now. Yeah.

[00:29:46] What do you see in terms of kind of the future of this? Where is it going in the next one, three, five years, I guess, especially with AI and continuing to work remotely, as we talked about earlier, you know, are there some, some things that you see on the horizon? Yeah, I do think, I think technology for sure is one of the big things that's influencing. And what I hope is that it allows us to get more individual.

[00:30:14] So engagement really, you know, and the employee experience really is much more individualized. So I'm hoping that the, you know, that the technology can help tailor things to people at, you know, either whether it's points in their, their work life cycle or their personal life cycle, you know, to what their needs and interests might be, you know, depending on where you are in

[00:30:39] your career, maybe it's giving you, you know, more learning things or, you know, if you've, if you knows you just had a baby, right? What else does that, you know, how does it present you with benefits information and things like that? So I'm hoping, I'm, I think that's really, you know, a key piece that can be to our advantage, right? Not that technology is the only thing, but it helps us deal with the masses, right?

[00:31:06] So, you know, if, if a leader has, you know, they have pretty large spans of control in some organizations, you've got 25 employees, you know, being able to meet every one of them where they're at is, gets more difficult. So, you know, and they're not experts in everything, right? We shouldn't expect any of us to be right. I, yeah, I always say it. If I'm the smartest one in the room, we're in trouble.

[00:31:32] So yeah, well, and benefits, I mean, if you don't get that right, I mean, that's sort of at the core, right? If people have to, to fight for the things that they need when they need them, you might have a little problem there. And I, I think you're right.

[00:31:56] I think AI, I've been involved in some conversations around how, how AI is going to help facilitate a lot of that. Cause there's a, there's a lot of time spent sort of dealing with the challenges there and helping people through that and sort of having to do the research when the data is all there. So there's, there's some more instantaneous answers and results that, that can be had there that

[00:32:22] hopefully help people through those life events because that's where the rubber meets the road. Right. I mean, if it's one negative experience after the other, it, nothing else really matters. You're going to, you're going to run out. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of like, you know, brings you back to, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like that's gotta be met first before people really can, you know, give you, you know,

[00:32:49] more creativity or, you know, more volume if that's what it is. Right. Yeah. To me, the engagement is all about the, the visceral reaction to things and you want more positive visceral reactions than negative, right? Like there's, there should be a promoter score there somehow. That's right. You measure the times that they were thrilled about the results of something versus, you

[00:33:18] know, very dissatisfied and, you know, just having to jump through a lot of hoops to solve their problem. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Right. I mean, it, it, we want them to be able to focus on their work. You know, we spent a lot of time at work. We want it to be, we want it number one, to be a valuable experience and not have all those kind of hassles and things, but if, if they're, you know, if they have things going on, you

[00:33:44] know, outside of work, we want to try to support that so they can, you know, focus on the work. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you can't focus when other stuff's going south. I mean, it's, it's very difficult. And everybody, you know, everybody has something right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What advice do you, would you give to HR professionals who are looking to specialize in, you know, employee engagement, organizational transformation?

[00:34:14] Do you have any specific guidance for people there that are thinking, you know, I'm, I'm in, I'm early in my career. This sounds like an area that I'd like to focus on, or I've been focusing on it and I really love it. You know, any, any advice or guidance you might give them on their journey? Yeah. Yeah. A couple of things come to mind. So first is always curiosity, right? Like ongoing curiosity, you know, and that might be some self-reflection on, on the individual's part.

[00:34:42] Like if you feel like, you know, you, you know a lot and you don't have to learn more, you're wrong. Always more, always more. Oh my gosh. I learned something new every day. Yeah. Yeah. Constantly being curious. And I think the other thing is focusing on the business, right? Like knowing, you know, from a workplace standpoint, you know, understanding your business, what makes it, you know, kind of what makes it tick? What's the drivers, what's happening in the marketplace.

[00:35:11] That's not just for our marketing and salespeople. We need to understand that so we can adapt, you know, what we're doing, but also, you know, what staff would expect and what, you know, maybe even what opportunities are out there for you. Right. Because you might be looking at other places. And then the other thing that came to mind was just kind of systems thinking. Right. So employee experience, employee engagement is a very holistic piece. Right.

[00:35:40] So, you know, understanding some things around, you know, the full business system. Right. Which would include the environment, you know, the leaders, the, you know, the technology, the people, you know, that kind of thing. So really being open to all of that and to continuously learn and be curious in those areas is important. Yeah.

[00:36:05] Rather than making, and also not, you know, we look at trends and we look at, you know, large groups that we have knowledge of, of their experiences, but not making necessarily assumptions about people. Right. So it's kind of a both and. Right. Yeah. I, I, I always love the curious angle and there's a lot you can learn from what's been done in

[00:36:30] the past from books, from podcasts, but, you know, talk to people, right. Ask people, right. You know, talk to, to all, all sorts of people in your organization. Right. Don't, don't be afraid to ask questions and don't be afraid to try stuff. And they'll prove you wrong. Right. So if you, if you listen to that podcast and, you know, they said something all about, you know, early career professionals, right. Go talk to one. And guess what?

[00:36:59] They're going to prove that that's not always the case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the more, the more you, you get to know other people and talk to people. I do think this is one of those areas that you probably won't be successful in if you're, if you don't like talking to people. Oh, true. Yeah. So maybe not a huge introvert, unless you can turn that around and, and get out there and talk to people in the organization. That's right.

[00:37:27] You know, in the most junior roles on the front lines, executives, you know, everybody's got, everybody's got challenges. So you need to kind of have a good pulse on what the other experiences are. Having been in senior roles for a long time. That's been, that's one of the, I guess, downsides of it is a lot of times I'm, you know, talking with the leadership all the time.

[00:37:55] So I try to make a point, like when, let's say it's a whole group of people come in for a meeting. You know, I try to join them for lunch, you know, so I can just sit and talk to them. You know, why are you here? What do you like about it? You know, what did you do before? You know, and just, you know, start picking up those bits and pieces from people. And it's really important to do that. And then the other thing sometimes I do is I'll do skip level meetings with my own team

[00:38:22] so that, you know, I only see that, that layer of leadership. So I'll meet with the next level below that and have conversations about how things are going. And then a lot of, you know, employees like to talk about things. So I'll have round tables about, oh, let's talk about learning and development. You know, let's talk about your professional development plans. And I'll, you know, make sure that the experts are in the room with me, but just, you know,

[00:38:48] hearing what people are experiencing and, and, you know, what they're interested in. It's a good way to kind of get in touch with that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been great. I really enjoyed this conversation. I, I too, like the, well, we all experience being an employee. So anytime you can talk about the importance of that with people, I think is, it's a lot of fun. So thank you, Pam, for joining me today. This has been a great conversation.

[00:39:18] I want to remind people that the annual HR system surveys out there, but we're just about to launch participation for this year and the next, actually, by the time you hear this podcast, it will probably be out there. So go participate in the, in the survey. Also be sure to listen to Stacey and Cliff next week while they spill the tea on HR tech. Thanks again, Pam. I also want to thank our producers, Brand Method Media Group.

[00:39:47] I want to thank our marketing team, Cindy and Summer, and you. Thank you for tuning in. That's all the time we have for this week's episode of HR. We have a problem. If you enjoyed the episode, you can subscribe to it on your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or tell us what you want to hear about. Because we love to talk about the topics that you want to hear about on this show. We will be back in two weeks with another episode of HR. We have a problem. Thanks, everybody.