HR, We Have a Problem - Grief in the workplace. Developing effective communication protocols with empathy and proactive support.

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It took a Herculean act of strength to get up, go upstairs and let myself fall apart in front of my own family.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: My sisters, my parents, I can't tell you why. It's just there's something about grief that is

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: throwing elbows and it's like, hey, you should be alone. Nobody's going to understand this. Why

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: don't you hug your pain? You know, you just lost someone real important to you. I know,

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I got an idea, says grief. We're going to show the world how important they were by showing

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody that you can't move forward without that person. So let's grow up in a ball, let's go in the

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: corner and if anybody tries to help you, you'd be inconsolable. You just hug your pain tighter.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the HR Huddle podcast presented by Sapient Insights Group, the ultimate resource

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: for all things HR. It's time to get in the huddle. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the HR

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Huddle. I'm your host, Terri Zipper, CEO and managing partner at Sapient Insights Group,

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm back for another episode of HR We Have a Problem. This is the show where we like to

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_03]: break down the big and most relevant HR issues of the day. We help you make sense of what they

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: mean and we talk about what you might do about them. I have a great show for you today. First,

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: my partner and our chief research officer, Stacey Harris, is co-hosting with me today.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You know her as the host of Spilling the Tea on HR Tech. Hi Stacey. Hi everyone. And

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_03]: joining the two of us is Jason Seidon. Jason is the co-founder of Comfort Communications and

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Stacey and I have been looking forward to having a conversation with him. Welcome Jason.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to this myself.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I appreciate both of you making time for this today and like I said, I've definitely been

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: looking forward to it because it's a really important conversation. I think it's the stuff

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: that we don't talk about. The topic today is going to be grief in the workplace and

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_03]: so before you disconnect and say, oh I don't know if I can handle that, trust me,

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I had a conversation with Jason a couple months ago and we were both laughing and crying. So

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: you can make it through this podcast and I think you'll be, you'll appreciate it and be the

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: better for it. And I want to talk about what Comfort Communications is doing about grief in

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: the workplace. So I think it's a really important topic. Does that sound like a good plan to you

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_04]: guys? Absolutely. Sounds great. And I've brought tissues if anybody needs them so it's okay.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. Well, let's get into the huddle then. So Jason, before we get into questions,

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: tell us a little bit about Comfort Communications, kind of your mission, how you got here. I know

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: this is truly a passion project for you and I think knowing that is an important part of

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: what you do. Yeah, thank you. So I so appreciate all of this including the setup.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so important. Our mission is to normalize this conversation. If you've chosen to be born,

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: there's only one other life event that you're guaranteed to share with everybody else.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? So the idea that it's this scary boogie man that we can't talk about it today,

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: no, it's as natural as it gets and normalizing it is important for a variety of reasons that

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll talk about. There's a few things that make Comfort special but I think before we talk about

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: what Comfort does, I want to share just one part of my story. We've all had tragedy.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no misery Olympics. I don't think any one person is worse than anybody else.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: What I want to share is a moment of joy that I had a couple days after the worst thing

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that ever happened to me and just so that people know where I come from with this and

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: how I'm anchored. Six years ago, I lost my daughter, absolutely horrible. Don't imagine it.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't try. Dark, dark place. But what really shocked me was a couple days after that happened,

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I had the most profound moment of joy I've ever had in my life and it came out of nowhere.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just this feeling that here's this girl who extended my capacity for joy when she was

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: born beyond what I thought possible and with her death extended my capacity for grief beyond

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: what I thought possible. In that moment, I felt nothing but appreciation for this human who had

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: given me more ability to live my life and that appreciation, I mean, obviously you don't hold

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that for a long time, right? But it really has served as a true north really since then and

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's helped me have a more shallow and shorter journey than a lot of other people

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: have. Comfort is a company. I don't know how to help people replicate what happened but I do

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that in the days that followed that tragedy, I was surrounded by wonderful people who kind of

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: put me in a cocoon and then got out of my way. And boy, wouldn't it be nice if we knew how to

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: be there for people but also got out of their way so that they could have that journey and

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: we weren't tripping over ourselves and causing them to trip over us. And I'll just say,

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: if you work at a company, you've probably seen the company trip over itself. Your colleagues

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: tripped over themselves and gotten in your way. And so the idea behind comfort is,

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, let's normalize this conversation around grief. Let's make it easier for people to do the

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: little things that they want to do, be there in those little moments so that they're not

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: getting in the way of their colleague who's going through a thing and then maybe more

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: people can have shorter, shallower journeys through this horrific event. But you know,

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: their team becomes a source of strength and a source of support and a source of like, yeah,

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually like this is good, as opposed to one more thing they got to go see a therapist about.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I like the origin, your comment about companies or organizations because we do have

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of this tendency to have an expectation of the organization and but organizations don't

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: console you, they don't connect with you, it's individuals within the organization. And

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's one of the reasons why an organization's culture is so critical to this

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_03]: process. You know, what is the culture that's embedded in this organization? And everybody's

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: different, everybody responds to things differently. But this is one of those areas

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: that I think a lot of people are timid, afraid to step into like, how do I say,

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't and I know personally from personal experience, when this would happen, I was one

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: of those people that just didn't know the right words. So chose maybe to say nothing, or,

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, the typical obligatory, I'm so sorry for your loss.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot to what you just said. So in the in the in the years that preceded any

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of launch, I talked to pretty much everybody I talked to has a story.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and there were some consistent themes with what people were sharing in terms of

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: where the gaps were. Right? So we all know that people in organizations don't do a good

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: job with this. But if you're going to do something about it, you have to be able to get

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: underneath that and figure out why. And there were a whole bunch of things that

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that showed up, it turned out that there was a pretty simple path. Right? There's this we came

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: over the solution that sort of lined up all the dots. So we'll start with that. And then

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll kind of go back through some of the things that you shared, like where companies mess this

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: up. What comfort communications provides is not therapeutic, but it's a communication protocol.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's something that HR can use to really do three things very simply. Number one,

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: help the team activate the team to take care of their teammate. So here's what to say,

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: right? Number two, come up with an operating model. How are we going to deal with this?

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of different forms of grief. Maybe I've lost a loved one. Maybe you've lost

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: an employee. Maybe someone's getting divorced. Maybe there's a mass weather event or I mean,

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: heaven forbid, you know, violence event. There's miscarriages. There's layoffs. There's

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: all kinds of things. So to be able to have a an operating model that's 80% 90% ready,

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: where all you have to do is customize it for that moment rather than in a moment where you're

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: totally stressed, come up with the whole thing. That's the second thing that Comfort

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: comms provides is those operating models. And then the third thing is a way to track

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: what's going on so that as you have people in the organization who learn about what happened

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: later, they can actually join the conversation already in progress. And those are the three

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: things that Comfort does. And hold that aside for a second. Why do companies screw this up?

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a bunch of good stuff that you shared. One, people don't know what to say. Absolutely.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a cold prompt. I don't know where to go with this. And providing people with

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: a head start on that is certainly something that folks need. Secondly, there needed to be

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: some kind of organization. Not only do people generally not know what to say, they don't

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: know what's happening. There's a natural inclination for leaders and HR to say,

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, this happened to this person. We have to throw a bunch of resources at that person.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a conversation because when you're grieving, the last thing you can do is go

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: through an EAP and figure out which of your mental health apps you're going to go sign.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not happening. But we forget that we have an entire team of people

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: who are relying on this individual who's now about to go absent for a while. And they're still under

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: pressure to perform. There was a responsibility to them to make sure that they can continue

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: to perform. Some of them are going to be personal friends with this individual.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: That was just a huge gap. There was nobody thinking about the team or the manager or the

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: executives involved. And I just kept hearing story after story about how that led to problems.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're all familiar with the manager who just calls up and is like,

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: when are you coming back to work? That's horrible. But I'm hearing about

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: HR where a system sends an automated note that you have to go change beneficiaries.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's no personal note to say, hey, you're about to go get this automated note.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to feel like a kick in the teeth. And I just want you to know I'm here and I

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: can help you through it. That call is missing. I'm hearing about executives calling individual

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: contributors thinking they're doing a great thing. But then the IC has no idea how to

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: interact with an exec. So they're trying to be with their family. And instead,

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: they're off in a corner maybe with a brother or a cousin saying, okay, I just called my CEO

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: back. So help me get my game face on and tell me what to say. And so that lack of

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: organization, that lack of knowing what's going on is a second, just was a second huge

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: bucket of problems that we were seeing. And then the third and fourth go together.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you share this with the rest of the organization? And how do you maintain

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: somebody's desire for privacy? And from an HR perspective, there are a lot of folks who just

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: go, I don't know what kind of privacy they're going to want, so we're done.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And from an HR perspective, I get that. But from a commerce perspective, you can break that

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and say, well, what kind of privacy? They don't want anyone to know that anything happened.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: They are okay with people knowing what happened. They just don't want to talk about it.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't want the details shared, or they're actually okay with everything. They just need

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: some time before they get the answer from everybody reaching out. Those are all privacy,

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're all different forms. So helping HR go behind the headline, figure out, okay,

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: what exactly are we dealing with and why, right? And then back to the operating model,

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: if that person says, I don't want anyone to know because they're private or because they

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: don't trust their manager. So we got to figure out what the real issue is.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So those two things like how do I let the team know? How do I let the broader team know?

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And how do I manage this person's privacy? Those things are linked. And so by coming up

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: with this comms model of helping people know what to say so that they're activated,

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: they can take care of their teammate, making sure there's a plan that can be shared with the

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: individual and a manager and a team and an extended team. And then a repository for

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: information so that as people come late to the party, they can catch up and they're not

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: constantly bringing this grieving person back to square one with the same questions.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That grouping together really was, we found we were able to address a lot of those places

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: where companies get hung up when they try and take care of somebody in grief.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Geez, and I want to call out one of the first things you had mentioned there, which is

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_04]: communications. Because I think we undervalue the communications conversation. All the other

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_04]: things you talked about, I think, are things we're afraid of, but the communications piece

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_04]: is happening whether we know it or not. Right? That's right.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_04]: You had mentioned people getting announcements or communications from the systems about benefits.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that was the story that I shared with you. When you first posted on LinkedIn

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_04]: what you were doing, I'm fairly private about my personal life. And so a lot of

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_04]: people don't know, but my husband passed in 2016 due to cancer. And so I had been off for about

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_04]: two months going through the process of helping him pass. And then my first communications, and

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_04]: it was new to do to no point with the HR professional because the HR team actually did what

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I think they thought was the right thing to do. They went in and changed everything in the

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_04]: system for me. They just automatically did it. But the first communication I got from the

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_04]: when I opened up from what at that point in time, I think was PeopleSoft was as a widow,

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_04]: now you need to go through and change these things. And so I laugh because it's so,

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_04]: it's that macabre humor, right? That you're like, there's no other way to handle that

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_04]: because I can remember breaking down at my desk. And I think that's the challenge is that

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_04]: we oftentimes don't realize is that in the absence of not having a plan or not having a

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_04]: communication strategy, something is happening whether we want it to or not. And that was the

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_04]: piece I think that hit me most when we were talking about our experiences and our backgrounds

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_04]: was that so few organizations want to deal with this because it feels too much, too big,

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_04]: too not something that they feel like they can't actually get their arms around.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_04]: What I love about what you guys have done is you've broken it down into manageable chunks.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Yeah, I think it's funny, a lot of organizations, they kind of know they're bad at this,

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: but they don't know the impact. And your story has been echoed by other folks who I've talked

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: to and in HR people who just like a ring in their hands, we don't even know what the system

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is sending out to people. So no one's done the audit to go here's what's happening and we

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: can get in front of it. I think about how much a company invests in its culture

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and the employee experience and employer branding and employee engagement and

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: tools to reduce absenteeism and all that. Right. A lot of that is there simply because

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the companies are not showing up, right? They're not allowing the employees to show up for each

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: other in moments that matter. And if you've been through grief, you know that your world

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: is not going to be the same. And if you're not, we're done. And I'm not coming back.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that moment, the clock, not only does the clock start ticking for me as an individual,

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but everybody I talked to, I've checked out. So either they go, well, this person who I

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: really enjoyed working with is checked out. And over time, they kind of forget that I lost

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: somebody. And now they're thinking, well, when good people leave, maybe I should be thinking

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: right. There's like this whole ripple effect that happens when somebody witnesses a colleague

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: checking out for these reasons. And it's very, very difficult to come back from that. So

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not just that this stuff happens. It's that the impact of it, we're measuring other

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff. We're measuring downstream impact, but you can trace it back to these moments that matter.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really important to get them right. And I think now more than ever,

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it's more important and harder to get them right too. I know I'm rambling. Thank you

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: so much for letting me do it. I'm so passionate about this. Like it's just jumping and coming

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: off at any time. COVID and the whole thing that we've been through the last couple of

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: years really has had an impact on us. And on the one hand, we've got people coming into

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the workforce that just they don't have the skills. And those of us who are in the

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: workforce, we're a little rusty. So we want to be empathetic, but we kind of forgot how.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We lost two years of practice. And the other thing that happened is we're doing more like

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: this. So we're doing more video work. Well, I don't know exactly where you guys are,

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but you're in my house. I know it's blurred out for you, but I'm seeing your faces and

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm seeing my house behind you. There's an intimacy that we have created even in a

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: professional environment. And the idea of professionalism needs to catch up to that.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're all feeling it. It's not okay anymore to just say,

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: look, you got some personal stuff going on. We're going to keep this relationship

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: professional. Let's call it. Right? I've seen you, you've seen me. You're in my home,

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: whether you want to be or not. So for you to then just say, oh yeah, we're professional

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: showing up. It hits me in a different place that I wasn't anticipating. I maybe didn't have the

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: words for, but it's very, very real. And so that combination of like things get binary.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We may not have the skills to really read things right, but it's more intense than

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it's ever been because of the intimacy that we've created. We need this. We absolutely

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: have to address this now more than ever. And oh, by the way, with AI, you're going to end

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: with fewer employees and more leverage on the few that you have. Like turnovers are going to be

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: harder to deal with than it's ever been. Like there's this huge confluence of factors

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that just makes this imperative at the moment. I'll stand out from the soapbox now.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, I mean, you're very passionate about it. So we love that. And

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, it's a lot to digest, but I love that, you know, not everything's a process,

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_03]: but in this case, there are things that can be put in place to make it smoother for people.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Stacey said something to me on the call the other day when we were talking about having

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_03]: this call and she said, grief isn't linear. Like I'm grieving this week, right? Because of

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_03]: the passing and the funeral and all the things that kept me busy. Maybe I'm not even grieving

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_03]: that hard this week because I'm so busy trying to deal with the issue that I haven't even had a

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: chance to process it. So the grief starts later, but then it also happens over time too. And

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the things that you have to deal with, right? Whether it is a death or a divorce or something

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_03]: else, like we don't, there's a lot of things happening in people's lives and no, you can't,

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, worry about that 24 seven, but you can be there for people when they need to,

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, take those steps. And so I want to hear more about the process, but you know,

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it's good to just talk about it, right? I mean, right. Well, and you're on it. Like

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot to the process. It's not very complicated. It gets complex because,

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, from an HR standpoint, there's a lot of conversations to track and to confirm. And

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: before this person reaches out, it's confirmed that that piece of information was collected.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the core, we're talking about being thoughtful and just good to each other.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what HR can do? HR can look at the calendar and go, oh, you know what? We've got

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a manager offsite coming up. This person's going to be at a table and half the table is

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be her team and half the table is going to be new people. Let's make sure the

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: icebreaker isn't what did you do this weekend? Where it becomes a round robin of I went here

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: with my family. I did this with my family and this person is going to get here and there

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and she's gonna be like, now what do I say? Do I break the hearts of, you know, these five

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: people who are meeting for the first time or do I give these five teammates permission to

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: ignore what happened to me because I'm about to put on the face and say, Hey, I'm okay.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: HR can take a look at that and go, let's make sure that doesn't happen.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And those things go so far to just helping people feel seen. We're all adults. We know

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that the work doesn't stop. We know we're not operating at our best, but if I get a call from

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: somebody and that person's able to say, Hey, you know, Jason, Terry here. I talked to Stacey.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: She said last week was a rough week. I'm just checking in. How are you doing?

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: How's this week? Is that anything about it? Do you need anything? Can I do anything for you?

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably not, but I know two things. Not only the Terry reached out,

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: but the Italian Stacey connected and are looking out for me. And what a difference

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: versus hearing from everybody just how you doing today? What happened? How are you doing today?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: What happened? Hi, are you kidding me? Like how can I work with a hundred people? I gotta

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: go through this a hundred times. That's why people clam up. So there's a lot so that the

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: process we have, helping people know what to say and the operating model. We really thought

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: through like, what are a lot of these little interactions that are likely going to happen?

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: How do we activate the team? How do we keep them aware of what else is happening

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: so that everyone's taking a small action, a small thoughtful action. And for the person

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: who's being impacted, it adds up to thank you for showing up for me company. That felt

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: good. There's a lot here you couldn't deal with, but you were able to clear the path and

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: go deal with my stuff and maybe find a moment of peace, if not of joy. And that's where it

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_04]: starts. Like let's just be human to each other. Jason, you had mentioned that a portion of this

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_04]: is also that the way in which the team is informed. I thought that was a really intriguing

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_04]: piece when we started talking about this because I think there are some tools out there that

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_04]: will say, here's some communication models. I've seen some of that before EAPs try and support

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_04]: some of that. But like you said, in the midst of the pain, most people have no idea about how to

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_04]: activate any of the things the company has available. I have that conversation on a constant

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_04]: battle with a lot of organizations. Like, well, no one's using REIT or a mental health

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_04]: system because you haven't really figured out how to make it accessible when they need it.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_04]: But I do think this idea of understanding what the team is going through and making sure that team

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_04]: is informed is really powerful. I know Terry and I've had this conversation when we've had

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_04]: people in our team who have lost team members and their family members, like how do we make

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_04]: sure that everything's balanced so not only do they feel like the work's still getting done,

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_04]: but that team feels like they're being supported with what they're having to do, right?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And I know when you come back, sometimes there's different dynamics because someone who

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_04]: was taking on your role for maybe quite a bit of time is now being asked to step back.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, how do you, how have you dealt and how are you guys addressing some of that

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of the conversations you're having? So the way I look at the world is you can tell

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: people what to do or how to do it, but not both. You know, like a good manager will either

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: tell you what to do or how and leave the what to you, right? And with Comfort, we've

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: taken a similar approach. We start with how. There's a lot of what that we're just not

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: going to know, but we can make sure the how is smooth and we can make sure it's human and

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: we can make sure there's empathy there. I think HR and organizations, there's an over,

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: there's an over reliance on telling people what to do. You know, we try and hire smart

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: people, but then we go and tell them what to do. It's like, why'd you bring me in?

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do my college degree. If you're just going to tell me what you want me to do.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So the idea of, for instance, we say like, people don't know what to say. Let's tell them

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to say, we're not really telling them what to say. We're giving them ideas of how to express

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: what they want to express. And when you look at the team, there's a lot of that that's going on.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We know there's going to be tough conversations. We know that performance is likely going to be

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: an issue. So how do you address performance? Well, it might be by having a process where

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: HR or somebody else on a project team is deputized to connect with that grieving person

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and find out the truth where the manager is not instantly involved because it's not safe for

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: someone who knows they're not operating at 100% to share that with a person who could fire

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: them for not operating at 100%. So we have to have that conversation. We've got to figure

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: out how to share the workload to get this stuff done, but how is it going to happen?

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Does it go through a peer? Is HR involved? Can the manager handle it? They just need training.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There's some how questions that we can start to get at that buy an organization space and time

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to get the better answer about what they've got to do. And that's how we think about it.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, really powerful.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: People have to feel like there's openness. Like I could call somebody and tell them

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_03]: this and I won't be penalized for it. Because the stress already of whatever it is they've been

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_03]: experiencing is only compounded by the fact that they know they're not getting the job done.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And that adds just a whole other layer of stress.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And it can be humiliating. Let's just put it on the table. Grief sucks.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, one of the most brilliant things that my co founder and wife did was she

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: said, we can't like grief can be nowhere. This is not about grief. No one wants to touch it.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Even those who have been through it like yeah, once was enough. Go away. Right?

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's got to be about comfort. Like it has to be something that people can lean into

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and take care of. And the you know, because grief is awful, right? One of the hardest things

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I did. I lost my daughter. You can imagine all the people who are talking, you can picture

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: the conversation. Everybody coming up to me, I don't know what to say. I can't imagine. I'm

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: like dude, do not imagine. Not for one thing. Go tell me that you gave your kids an extra hug.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? I'm about to spend so much time and money in therapy to get out of this hole.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Why would you try and picture the whole thing? It's not like it's kind of gross. Taste it.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Or like yeah, it was a scary movie. Go away. Keep away from this.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I had extended family and my sisters. They're all flying. I got my whole family in the house.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know what I did? I went in the basement where I could be alone. And I curled up on the

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: couch. And I could hear them all upstairs. And it took a Herculean act of strength to get up,

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: go upstairs and let myself fall apart in front of my own family. My sisters,

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: my parents. I can't tell you why. It's just there's something about grief that is

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: growing elbows and it's like hey, you should be alone. Nobody's going to understand this.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you hug your pain? You just lost someone real important to you. I know. I

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: got an idea, says grief. We're going to show the world how important they were by showing

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody that you can't move forward without that person. So let's curl up in a ball. Let's

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: go in the corner. And if anybody tries to help you, you'd be inconsolable. You just hug

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: your pain tighter. That's, and it's not a whisper. I mean that is what grief yells at you.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the journey that you're going through to overcome that, to even just soften the voice,

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to deal with it, that's personal and unique. But on the other hand, we're all

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: humans. We're not that different. We're kind of like snowflakes. Like we're all going

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: through that journey. So the idea of knowing this is what the journey is going to be like.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And as a team, we can anticipate that. And when we talk to this individual who's grieving,

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we know a few things. We might not know the specifics and we might not know where they are

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in the journey, but we know the journey. Now you can start to come up with some templates

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and some plans where you don't have to wait on the idiosyncratic part. You can focus on

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: 80, 90% that's common to all humans and be like, look, I don't know where you're at,

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but I have to admit, like, I know this is not a good time. Like I know you're so

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you don't have to worry about calling me back. This phone call is for you.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry about little things. Hey, I know you said you're coming back to work. I know

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you're gung ho. I know you want to take your mind off stuff. I just want you to know we

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: all get it and nobody expects you to be 100. You're going to have a bad day when

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you don't expect it. Call me. I'm here. When it happens, I'll be here. Just flag the stuff

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that we know is going to happen. Normalize those conversations and then remember that.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So when that person actually reaches out, you're like, yeah, not a big deal.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Knew this was coming. Let's talk about it. What do you mean?

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_04]: That normalization, I think on the, the statement of what is the fact, right?

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I think is so powerful and what you just stated, because I think so many times we

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: were afraid to actually state what is right. It is, it is so much more about,

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to make everybody feel better. I want to fix it. Right. And

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the best thing that I ever had anyone do was just say the sucks.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_04]: The sucks. There's nothing else to say but the sucks. Right. It's that reality.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So the, my manager, so the company I worked for when this went down was great

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: place to work. And I just, I mean, I have so much respect for the culture team and the,

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the grief was also a gap. My manager didn't have the tools to do and I don't,

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a good person. There's no, there's no ill will. But the only time that they asked me

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: how I was doing were the five times between the event and, you know, a year later when

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a strategic conversation to have and they wanted to make sure I was up for it.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, can I just get a text? Like, can you just ask me how I'm doing? And then I had

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: somebody who I didn't even know who found out about it. And they called me and they said,

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what? I just want you to know, I've been thinking about this. If I read about

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you and you've become an ax murderer, I want you to know it's okay. Like you just get a

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: in my mind. I can't like what you've dealt with is horrible. And if, and I think I'd probably be an

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: ax murderer if that happened to me. So if you need anything, and no matter how weird it is,

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: call me. And if you get yourself in trouble, just know I'm still a safe phone call.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: That made me laugh my ass off. Right? I mean, it's so bold. It's so out of left field,

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was right. I mean, the stuff going through my head was like, not that I was

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: murderous. But you know, I'm like, this, it wasn't though, it wasn't the Henry, like, oh my gosh,

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it was somebody just stepped right into him. Like, yeah, I spent like five minutes trying to

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: figure out what's going on through your head. And I can't better you than me.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You get a bye with me if you can't handle it. It that normalization is very powerful.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think just the outreach, you know, regardless of what it is just,

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_03]: whether you want to talk about it, or whether you just want to talk about something else.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sure you guys probably thought a lot about the putting the word communications in

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_03]: the name of your organization. But I mean, at the end of the day, that's, that's really what

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: this is all about. The keeping those lines of communication open. Because once they close,

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_03]: you, you shut down. Right? And right, and then you become less and less able to ask for help

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_03]: or talk about some of these things with people. And I was thinking about your

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: conversation about going in your basement, you know, obviously, when my when my father

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_03]: passed away, we were all at the house. And, you know, so there's a lot of people around,

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and after they took him, I found my mom in the bedroom on the bed just curled up in a ball,

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03]: right? Just, she just wanted to be alone in there. And you just don't know what to say.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_03]: But you've got to, you know, bring them back into the fold. Stacey, I need your clean access.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't bring any.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, it's hard. I mean, it took it, it took one act of willpower after another,

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: personally, you know, and it also took some reframing. I had some people around me who

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: pulled me forward. And for me, I mean, sometimes the goal is just can you get out of bed?

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? You put your feet on the floor and you stand up, you're like, I won the day

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: back to that. That happens. But I had to recalibrate the way that I saw people,

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: all those people who were just annoying the hell out of me. When I just wanted to be alone,

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, No, no, these are like the nurses who are checking on me after a concussion every

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: hour. And it's annoying and all I want to do is sleep, but they're keeping me alive.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what's happening here. There's a there's a custom in Judaism, you sit Shiva,

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and a lot of people know the phrase, you're sitting Shiva. But it's beautiful. And the way

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that it works is when there's a loss, the person who, who had the loss, they do a couple things.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you're real religious, you cover all your mirrors, so you can't even see yourself,

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: which is actually surprisingly more effective than you think. Most people I know don't do that,

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's part of it. But then you kind of open your house and your friends will come to

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: for like a week. And they bring the food and they bring the community. And your house is alive,

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and noisy, and messy, and it's aggravating, and you don't have a minute to yourself.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then by the time everyone leaves a week later, some of the initial

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: trauma has passed, you're in a better place to deal with that. And you have a

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: week's worth of memories of being surrounded by your friends and family. When you finally

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: have five minutes to yourself to curl up into a ball. And that's there's no therapy going on.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you guys have families, you know how dysfunctional most of them are. It's a complete

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: goat rodeo. But but that that mess and that idea of not being alone and knowing that you've

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: been thought and seen goes so far. And you know, and then like, and then we're all on our

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: own journey. Like some people, you're gonna hug your pain for a long time, others don't

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: hug it at all. And it's let's move forward. But at least that foundations in place. And so Lisa and

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I, we tried to capture a lot of that sentiment, and comfort, right and, and modify it, right?

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not family. This is a this is a business. This is a different rules of engagement.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But the idea of letting someone know they're being thought of appropriately,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: like being present in an appropriate way. I see you as a human. I see I recognize the pain

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going through. And I'm going to give you the fist bump hug. Wait, not just just enough

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to let you know that I've thought about you. Or I'm going to say something that you know,

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm coordinating with other people like we're taking care of things. It's very powerful. And

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: then when that person comes back, they're coming back to a network that was thinking

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: about them actively the whole time. So you know, whether they're whether they're in the bedroom

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: curled up or they want people with them, they're able to hear what's going on in the other room,

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: so to speak. And so they know, okay, I needed to be on that bed alone. But my team was still

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: on the other side of that door anytime. That totally changes a dynamic and makes that

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: reintegration easier, makes it safer to keep those lines of communication open, makes it makes

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it safer and easier to get off the bed and go back in the other room. And I find it interesting

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that we all like to be unique, and completely distinct as humans until we're talking astrology

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: or generations then we can't get in the box fast enough. And when it comes to grief,

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: the more I talk to people, the more I realized this is a box, like let's get in it together.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And if we can find ways to grab the points of commonality, we want to know we're being

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: thought of, we want to be seen as human, we want people to recognize, yeah, we know the work's

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: going to happen. Yeah. Let's take a gap, right? That's when those little things are missing,

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: it's almost irrecoverable. But when they're there, then yeah, let me get it right. Life

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: is filled with administrative hassle, this is going to be a big one. Jason, we hear the term

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_04]: right now, it's getting kind of common again, psychological safety, sort of inside of work

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_04]: environment. Yeah, yeah. The idea of psychological safety. Can you talk a little bit about sort of,

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_04]: as well as mental health wellness, all those things, how this maybe is different

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_04]: from some of that, which I think, you know, you say, but it does feel a little bit like,

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, the fad sometimes, right? Like, I feel like what you're doing is at a deeper

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_04]: level than some of those kinds of conversations, but I'd be interested in how you feel those are

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: connecting. So there's a couple parts to this one, we did frame this up as a protocol, right? So

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: this is very pragmatic, it's paint by numbers. I think HR has got a lot of good ideas, but

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_01]: let's call what it is, HR does not usually go far enough with the solution set, you know,

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like, oh, we'll train people and then they know how to handle it. Nope, they haven't

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: practiced it, it's not there when they need it, you know, we're going to put together a

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: succession plan. Okay, but plans change. And it's just so we wanted something that took the

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: training and brought it in just in time. And that's, that's already an accommodation to the

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: business, you're right, we're taking care of the team, stuff has to happen, we're going to make

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: it happen. We're making it happen in a psychologically safe way. But we're not

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: taking time out from work to do the therapy to find the kumbaya to do an offsite to do

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: training to know like, this is going to happen in real time while the wheels are turning.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So that that pragmatism, that's a part of it. One of the other things that I'll tell you is,

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I do think in the US, we like to push the pendulum way too far in one direction or another.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And right now we live in a split world, we have two pendulums swinging and oh my god,

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a mess. So one of our goals with this was really to find a way to bring people together.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to share a story to kind of illustrate what I'm talking about. I've got a

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: bunch of kids in college. One of them had a thing happen, as we all did in college and like I got

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to make an appointment with my shrink and talk through this. Great. And they're telling me what

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it was. And then they asked like, how did you deal with this? Right? I mean, it was very

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: clear that I had had a similar experience. You know, we all meet our heartbroken once in

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: our life. And I'm like, back in the 80s and 90s, you'd find an album or you'd make a

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: tape of sad songs, you'd listen to it like forever. And at some point, it dawned on you

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that someone actually sang your feelings. And the radio is playing it so other people are

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: listening. I'm not alone. And then you're like, Oh, I guess I'm normal. It sucks. But

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01]: it's also normal to have this sucky thing happen. And you got on with your life.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of the programs we have are missing that component. We take a time out

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: from life to deal with the psychological safety, but we're not connecting it back into

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: our lives. And so it was really important to us when we developed Comfort Communications to say,

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: life is happening. We're going to take care of people, but we're going to take care of them

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: in their lives. Nothing's going to stop. We're going to do it. And then if they want to think

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01]: about it later, the connections will click and they'll go, Oh, this is why that template was

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: a good template. This is why it actually was nice that Stacey called and then Terry called

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and Jason called. But in the moment, it's Stacey, you're making this call. We need

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: this information and I need it by the end of the day. And that's how we sort of bridge that

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: need for psychological safety and doing it within the within the realm of an organization

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: that has a profit motive. Who'd have thought we'd be talking about mixtapes on this call?

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. I can't think of anything better.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you didn't get so far as to when you finally got so sick of that mixtape,

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03]: you took it outside and like crushed it with the baseball bat.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I'm over this. Like, I can't listen to this anymore.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know what? But that's, I mean, that's part of what's in, I mean,

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: we're kind of, I'm talking a little bit more strategically around the need and sort

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of how we address it. But when you get down to it, you're exactly right. Companies don't

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: have any rituals. And so having that operating plan and being able to instill just a simple

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: little ritual, you know, something happened to a colleague, we're going to do a huddle at

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the end of the day for five minutes. I'm going to tell you what's going on. You're

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: probably going to learn nothing, but we're going to take five minutes and we're going

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to put some attention to it. That's a ritual. And then to be able to close that out and

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_01]: all right, we've been doing this daily for a week and then weekly for a month and then

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: monthly for a quarter. It's time to end it and get back on to work. It provides that

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: structure in our closeout. And it's really no different than, you know, unfortunately

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: part burning the tape back in the day, but ecologically safe. We'll just say we smashed

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_03]: it. That happened too. Yeah. You know, I think about like a lot of the culture

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_03]: programs and that have been going on over the years. And this is almost never a topic

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_03]: included in that conversation. So, you know, I think HR is, I mean, HR doesn't have to own

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_03]: everything, but when it comes to people and it comes to the ability to understand

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_03]: your workforce, I think they're an important driver and an important collaborator on this

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_03]: process. And we could probably talk for another hour, but maybe we'll have a second. We'll come

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_03]: back for a second show to talk about really how to do some of this stuff. For now,

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_03]: do you have one thing that you can leave the audience with today that might help them

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_03]: start to work on this as, and I normally would say a problem, but it's really,

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_03]: it's part of your attraction and retention. Like you want to retain employees. It's part of them

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_03]: being part of the organization and it also has a huge impact on your organization's productivity.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's important for everybody to win in this space, right? So if there's one thing you

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_03]: could leave the audience with today, what would that be? So let's start small, right? So I,

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I heard time and time again, how you doing today? And I'm like, okay, one of you read

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Sheryl Sandberg's book, which is amazing. And then you shared that knowledge out.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Can we get some creativity in here? Right. So let's just build on that body of knowledge.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: If you've got somebody where something happened to them,

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but think about what started this thing about comfort as opposed to grief support,

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_01]: keep it where it doesn't trigger you. You are providing comfort. Anyone can provide comfort.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a talking to person. It's a verbal hug. You know, ask about them and simple things you can do.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Ask what their name is instead of asking how they died or what happened.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Ask about what they stood for. Ask about, is there a favorite memory that you keep playing

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_01]: on repeat? Are there songs I should be looking out for, you know, maybe they're going to send

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: a message to you like what music or what movie or how do they, how are they reaching you?

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Anything to help keep the person alive in the memory of the person who's grieving is going to

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: help start by asking what their name is. And look, I want to tell you not to be afraid of grief.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, it's hard. So what I'll tell you is I asked for a quick tip and I'm

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_01]: rambling and I so appreciate you giving me the chance. Here's the analogy in yoga. If you do

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: a tree pose, you've got your hands up and you're standing on one leg and they say, don't think

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_01]: about balancing on one foot. Think about reaching for the sky. Comfort is the same thing. If you're

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: afraid of falling over, if you're afraid of tripping into this like black hole of grief,

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01]: don't think about where you're anchored. Think about what you're reaching for. You're

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_01]: reaching for comfort. You're reaching for joy. So ask about the person's name. Ask about a

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: favorite memory. Ask about a favorite song. Something that has a joyous component to it.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I love that. That's great. Well, Jason, thank you so much for joining Stacey and me today. This

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_03]: has been a great conversation. We'll do some crying after the show because none of us like

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_03]: to cry in front of people. It's probably one of our people weaknesses, right? Where can people

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_03]: find out more about comfort communications than you and what you guys are doing when?

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Easiest place to start is my LinkedIn profile. You know, in slash Seiden, S-E-I-D-E-N and all

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_01]: the requisite links and information are anchored right there. Awesome. Well, I want to thank

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_03]: our producers, the Brand Method Media Group. I want to also thank our marketing team who will

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_03]: make this snazzy and get it out there to our listeners. I want to thank you for tuning in

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_03]: today. That's all the time we have for this episode of HR We Have a Problem. If you enjoyed

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_03]: this episode, you can subscribe to it on your favorite podcast app. We'd love it if you'd leave

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_03]: us a review or you just want to reach out. So drop us a line, schedule some time to chat.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_03]: We will be back in two weeks with another episode of HR We Have a Problem. Thanks everybody.