Your Brain Is a Real Ahole: Making Managers Suck Less with Dr. Jamie Lewis Smith

[00:00:05] Welcome to The BOLT Podcast. I'm Todd Birch, entrepreneur, mental fitness coach, and keynote speaker. I believe every person has a spark, but life, pressure, and doubt have a way of dimming it. Here's the good news. You can reignite it at any moment. That's what this podcast is all about. When you fuel your spark, everything changes. Let's ignite it together. All right. Today, I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Jamie Lewis-Smith.

[00:00:36] Good to be here. Yes. Jamie is a psychologist, executive coach, and founder of Pixel Leadership Group. She's passionate about helping leaders become more empowering, more resilient, and in her words, helping managers suck less. We bonded over our shared love of neuroscience, mindset, leadership, and understanding why human beings do the strange things we do. She's brilliant, hilarious,

[00:01:05] refreshingly authentic, and easy to spot with those pink bedazzled Converse. Thank you for wearing those. Absolutely. I got to bring some sparkle. We got to bring some sparkle to leadership in HR, right? I agree. And you are definitely doing that. So whether you're leading a team, leading a business, or simply trying to stop your brain from being an asshole- Yes. Yes, they are. You're going to love this conversation. We're going to have some fun, guys. Jamie, welcome to the Bolt Podcast, my friend.

[00:01:34] Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and to hang out with you. Yes. This isn't work, is it? No. No, it's not. This is what we get to do. Talk to a friend. Right? Talk to a friend about neuroscience, about human behavior, leadership. We can nerd out. We can nerd out. Right? That's right. Be like our real nerds today. Yeah. So you're AKA the nerdy lady. The nerd lady. Nerd lady. Yeah.

[00:02:01] With emphasis on HR in that. Yeah. Somebody, our tagline for Pixel since we began was nerdy but fun. Oh, okay. And I always kind of say that when I'm out speaking and somebody walked up to me one time a few years ago and said, hey, you're the nerd lady. And I was like, I'm okay with that. Yeah. I embrace my nerdiness. It's so, it's stuck. It's stuck. Yeah.

[00:02:30] It's funny. I absolutely love it. I think it's about being memorable. That's what, that's not what this show is about. But my last episode was about breaking out of the sea of sameness. Oh. And you are doing that. So. Well, you have to be authentic, right? And also we're all doing HR, which is way too serious. I mean, we have serious jobs. Right. So you got to have some fun. Right. And that's what I'm here for. You got to have some fun. Right.

[00:02:59] We got to break it up. So you and I, like we said, we both geek out on neuroscience and human behavior. So what sparked your fascination, your interest for this field? I mean, people are fascinating, right? I mean, people are weird. They do weird things. We are. Sure. Yeah. And so, of course, a psychologist by training and, you know, I was drawn to psychology because

[00:03:26] it's fascinating to find out why we do what we do. And so, but about 20 years ago, I started to get excited about how do you apply these ideas to the workplace, to leadership, to organizational dynamics. And so, I was hooked. I mean, I am a clinical psychologist, so, and I do practice a little bit on the side, but that's not my full-time gig. It's helping leaders and organizations to make their managers suck less. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:56] I love it. I think in another life, that's maybe the training that I would have went into. I've always been fascinated with psychology. And then once I rewired my brain, which is how I kind of fell into this. I have a little imposter syndrome, if I'm being honest, because I feel like you're the teacher and I'm the student, but that's okay. So, I'm here to learn today. Perfect. But going through the positive intelligence program really opened my eyes into the world

[00:04:25] of human behavior, mindsets, mental fitness, and I was able to rewire my brain. So, in doing that, I learned a lot about what you talk about, which is why our brain is such an asshole. Our brains are real assholes. And I love that you're using yourself as an example, right? You can rewire your brain. And that's, I think, one of the reasons I am so passionate about this

[00:04:51] is because I think a lot of times we let our brains control us. And we think that just, well, this is just how I am, right? I have these thoughts. I have these feelings. I can't control them. And that's not true. You know, they certainly can happen, but you can be intentional about it. And I think the big message that I try to get across is that what we do is weird. It seems

[00:05:18] weird, but it's absolutely predictable and expected given if you understand the brain and why the brain does what it does. And it is an asshole. But if you're intentional about it, you can actually kind of overcome some of that default wiring that we have. Yeah. So, let's unpack that. So, your mission is to make managers suck less. Yes. I absolutely love that. So, let's talk about that mission and what it looks like.

[00:05:45] I mean, let's be honest. Most managers suck, right? We have to start there. We do. Why do people leave companies? Because of managers. Not the company. Not the company. So, we know that. That data's out there. It's been out there. Right. And, you know, the honest truth is that, again, you'll see this kind of as my underlying theme in most of what I do. They don't mean to suck. They don't. They just don't know any better, right? They have not been given the knowledge, skills, abilities, tools,

[00:06:14] time to be able to be better. And so, helping them to understand how they can do things differently to make things easier for themselves and better for the people that they lead and better for the organization. It's like a win-win-win. But it's like anything else. If you never learned how to ride a bike, you don't know how to ride a bike. Right. And they have – it's another job. It's a different job than whatever they learned to

[00:06:39] be, an engineer or whatever, you know. And helping them to know what those skills are and what actually works is what I hope to do. And it's not their fault that they suck. Right. But we need to, as HR, as organizations, we need to give them what they need so that they can learn to be better. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And what I don't understand, Jamie, is I've had so many leaders,

[00:07:03] coaches, authors in the space, the same space that we're in. And the common through line is that people are getting promoted because they're great at something. Right. But they're not given the tools to then really be successful in that role. So I don't understand, why are we not spending the time or even a small investment in teaching them, guiding them to be really great managers, really great leaders?

[00:07:33] Yeah. I think a few reasons. I think there is this pervasive belief that you're either like born a leader or you're not. And that this is some kind of internal quality. I think that's number one. Number two is that we see somebody that is good at their job and we believe that they are the ones that deserve to be promoted. So we equate promotion to leadership management roles with,

[00:08:03] you know, the you've earned it because you've been doing this and you're the best at it. Right. And we don't see leadership and management as actually a completely different job. But, you know, I use the example, it's like, imagine you have somebody that is the very best, you know, aero engineer who's, you know, knows every part of an airplane and they can fix anything on it. And

[00:08:29] then, you know, you say, oh, you're the pilot. Well, just because you can fix the airplane doesn't mean that you can fly the airplane. Right. It's a whole different job. It's a different set of skills. And that's where and the skills and the habits and just everything about what makes individual contributors high performers are almost opposite of antithetical to what makes you a good

[00:08:54] people leader. And I think that it's that that myth, that false sense of like, well, they can just they can just do it because they're good at this. Right. So, yeah, it's but this has been out there. We all know we I've been talking about this for 20 years. Right. I mean, this is not new information. I don't know why it's so hard to get through to organizations to help them to really appreciate that. It's just such a big mindset shift. Yeah. Yeah. It's so much. I think it's partially it's so

[00:09:24] much easier to promote within and fill that spot with somebody you know and trust in the role that they're currently in to just promote them as to go out and find somebody new or maybe even someone else within the organization. But it's an easy fix. Short term. Yeah. Well, and again, it's this sense of

[00:09:49] what they deserve it where we what I'd love to see now I'm putting on my you know, my organization development hat. What I really love to see is there to be multiple pathways for growth and promotion that individuals who are excellent performers have ways because that's the other thing that happens, right? They're really great performers. And the leader of the organization wants to recognize that.

[00:10:19] So they promote them into management. And then the performer wants a bigger paycheck, they want growth. And so they accept it, even though, again, but from both angles, they are not necessarily the right person. And the thought is, you know, let's say you've got, you know, John and John's the best performer on the team, the most excellent engineer. And then you got Tom, who is really great with people

[00:10:46] can get people on board with things has the the skills to be a good manager. But a lot of times that's not going to be those aren't going to be the skills that make them the best individual performer, right. And the sense of if we promote Tom, that isn't the best performer, we're going to be hurting, you know, Bob or whoever the first guy was that I mentioned. And I think that that's the it's a really big shift. And if organizations had a better pathway for individuals who were strong performers

[00:11:14] to continue to grow, I think that would change things. But, you know, that's, that's a big shift in how we do things in organizations. It is, it really is. And it reminds me of what I've seen. And actually, I heard a few speakers at SHRM National just last week, talk about this, where they were in an HR role, maybe as a specialist, or, you know, one of the kind of beginner roles, and then moved up, right, because they were really

[00:11:41] good at what they did. And then what they realized was, it wasn't what they really wanted to do. And so that's a great tie into what I talk about, which is igniting your spark. And what happens is we then get into a role because whatever it is, we want the money, we want the title, but we don't really want the work. And our spark dims. And then we, it leads us to all the symptoms of burnout,

[00:12:09] disengagement, stress, right, and potentially leaving the organizations, because the leaders have not seen the smoke signals, right? And that person is not who they once were. Right. So I don't, I don't know where we go. I keep seeing the same things over and over. And I love, love, love, love how you said, like, let's just have multiple pathways. And it goes back to one of

[00:12:37] the through lines of the conference. I'm going to reference the conference because it's still top of mind. And it was the Super Bowl of HR, but it was great because really we've taught, yes, it's HR, but we were talking about work. And one of the themes was we need to redefine work. Yeah. And I think that's what you're saying is we, because we've done this so, so long for so many years, guys, it's time. It's time to change. It's how we've always done it. Right.

[00:13:05] Yeah. I have been coaching leaders again for 20 plus years now, and I can't tell you the number of folks that I work with that are, you know, VPs in Fortune 500s. They're, they've been doing this, they're up there and they don't like being leaders. They were really great at whatever their specialty, whatever their subject matter was, and they were excellent there. And the problem is

[00:13:32] that the actual work of what you need to do as a leader is very different. And so then I'm usually called in to try to help them because, you know, they're spending too much time on getting into the weeds, becoming a micromanager. They don't know how to delegate. They don't know how to empower because they're doing things that they are drawn to because that's what they like. That's what they're

[00:14:02] like what it is to be a leader. And, but if we don't give them another path, then it's kind of understandable that it happens. Yeah. We've went down a rabbit hole here. I don't think that was the main topic, but it's interesting because it is a, it is a problem and it's been a problem for a while. And you say multiple pathways. And I'm just thinking as your background in organizational developments,

[00:14:25] do we become more flatter and, and become more collaborative and not have so much hierarchy? Is that a potential solution? It could be, you know, I think of Cisco, the tech company, that's one of my, I've been, you know, supporting their leaders for almost 10 years now. And I think they're a really great example

[00:14:49] because they have, they do have a technical pathway where individuals who are exceptional, I keep saying engineers, cause I work with a lot of, you know, engineers. That's a great example. Right. But they have the opportunity to continue to grow in that technical pathway and, you know, all the way up to becoming a distinguished, you know, engineer, um, that they have a path now, not for every single kind of role in the organization, but for many of them, they do have something they

[00:15:19] can do. And so they don't have to go into that management or leadership people, leadership side of things. And they can still be a leader in their technical space, but they don't, you know, lead people. And I think that more organizations need to think about how do we help to give people opportunity to grow without putting them in a position where they are leading people that they don't doing something they don't want to do, that they're not great at. You know, on the other side,

[00:15:48] I do believe that anybody can learn how to be a better manager or leader, you know, you, you can, that doesn't mean you're going to like it, but the skills and the behaviors are learnable. We can help them get there. We need to give them those opportunities. But again, just because we can, you know, I can learn to be a better statistician. That doesn't mean I want to do it. Right. Right. Right.

[00:16:14] And that's where the spark comes in. You know, they're doing things that they don't, that don't spark their, their joy. Right. Right. Yeah. I love the Cisco model. I think that could be, that could be a really great model that people could adapt. And I think we, why not have it at every level, at every role? You know, the funny thing is, and I know you're going to agree with me in that maybe this is a great segue into just change because really at the end of the day, that's what this is all about, right? Right.

[00:16:41] Everything comes back to change and we are adverse to change. It's uncomfortable, it's scary and all the things. But if, if we don't embrace it, then we're going to be stuck and in a comfort zone. And that's when we start to see those, those symptoms. But if we can give people an outlet to continue to grow, because we do, we're, we're built for evolution, right? You know,

[00:17:05] I mean, you know this better than anybody with all the background that you have and your work that we want to grow. We just, we're afraid of it. So we need to have that champion, that manager or somebody in our tribe-ish that's pushing us or helping us kind of either reignite that spark or keep it lit. Right. Yes. And I think, you know, that could be by us just continuing to do the work, you know, that we,

[00:17:34] that we like, but being challenged. Yeah. I, this is why I, you know, I'm so focused on and talk about brains so much. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's go there. Well, because our brains- Are assholes. They are assholes. That's right. They are assholes. Our brains are assholes, folks. They are, but they don't, they don't mean to be just like bad managers don't,

[00:17:59] 99% of people who are bad managers aren't jerks. They just don't know how to do better. They're, it's same with the brain, right? But our brains are trying to protect us and the ways that it does that oftentimes work against us in our current realities, in our current world. And change is one of those things. Our brains do not like change. It is going to do everything possible

[00:18:24] to work against change. Now, if you understand that, both as somebody who maybe is wanting to implement change, whether it's for yourself or in the organization, by understanding that the natural state of humans is to resist change, then you can be smarter about how do you implement changes that are more likely to succeed, that align with what we know about the brain versus what, you know, we know doesn't work with the brain.

[00:18:54] Um, we try too often to, you know, have huge changes, uh, without the support with expecting it to happen overnight. Um, not helping people to tie those changes to things that are already well-worn, well, you know, developed habits. Um, we pile on change. It's a very energy draining, you know, anytime you want to change, whether it's, I want to stop biting my nails to,

[00:19:22] I want to change the organization's culture, you know, it could be little to big. Your brain is going to say, no, this is not what I'm comfortable with. And it's going to try to push you back because it takes energy in your, your brains. Uh, it's, it's, it's like a battery, right? It's, it, I mean, you know, it takes energy change, change fatigue is real, right? And it, and, and if we just keep piling on more and more change and demands, people are not going to be successful in doing it,

[00:19:51] whether again, you're trying to change like a small habit or a big system, you need to be intentional about how do you align it with what we know about the brain. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. I've done a lot of research on change, change fatigue, decision fatigue. You know, there's, there's a time and a place too. I think timing is critical over the holidays. January is not the time to implement change, right? We are exhausted already. What gift should I buy? X, Y,

[00:20:21] and Z. What should we do for our family? What should we cook for dinner? Like we are literally exhausted. So don't try to stack anything on. And like the whole thing about new year's resolutions, that's the worst time we should be growing all year and not focus on, sorry, I'll get on, I'll get on a soapbox there, but I'm right there with you. You know, there's nothing magical about the beginning of the year. And as a matter of fact, it's a, usually a bad time to try to,

[00:20:48] to make those changes. You're already exhausted. Oh, I got to bring you'll love this. There was a guy, forget his name. And I apologize. There was a speaker that talked, was talking about change and the way that he related it to the audience was you go into a season of freeze and unfreeze. Maybe you've already heard, maybe that's a common term. It wasn't to me. And I was like, Ooh,

[00:21:12] that's, that's something that I can, that I can really hold onto. And his example was what we're talking about timing. Like, so you just did a small or large change, freeze it, let it go for a while, let it fall out before you stack on yet another change initiative because your team's exhausted. They need a break. Let's take it in before we unfreeze it and go into another

[00:21:39] one. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I think the visual can be helpful. I often use the example of learning to drive a car and follow me here for a second. We'll get back to the freezing and unfreezing. But when, if you think back to when you learn to drive a car and I know for someone like me, that was a very long time ago, but when you learn to drive a car, you had to pay attention to every single thing you were doing, right? How much pressure are you putting on the gas pedal? And

[00:22:09] you know, am I going to, how much, where am I going to put my hands on the steering wheel? And Oh, I got to turn on the turn signal. I just drove here an hour from, you know, Youngstown and I was listening to a podcast and I don't remember anything I did really. Right. Because our brains, it becomes automated and there's a part of our brain that creates automation and habits so that, because it saves energy. I don't need to expend that level of energy to think about and pay attention

[00:22:37] to driving like I did when I first started to drive. And when you think about change, it's the same thing. When we try to put a new, any change, when we put that into place, our brains have a high amount of demand to pay attention to and to push against our natural tendencies to make it successful. Now, once you've been doing that change long enough, it, your brain also wants to automate

[00:23:05] everything possible to create efficiencies and reduce the, the demand on the energy. So if you're doing it consistently over and over that you're rewire your brain, those things become habit. At that point, it doesn't require, you know, it's now that's the solidified, right? It kind of is unfreezing. It's all, it's a mess. It's all wet and messy. And then you can refreeze it. Now it's solidified. And that's, you know, but if you were to, I used to drive a stick shift,

[00:23:34] haven't for many, many years now, but if I woke up tomorrow and had a stick shift sitting in my driveway, it would take some energy, right? Because it's different. And it's not going to be, I'm going to be able to, I'm not going to be able to, you know, get lost in a podcast because I'm going to be paying attention to what I'm doing. And it's the same general principle when it comes to change. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you talk a lot about survival. Yes. And so I don't,

[00:24:00] I don't know that we need to spend a ton of time here, but I think it's important, right? Because it is one of the main reasons why our brain is an asshole. Yeah. Let's talk about that survival component for a minute. Right. Our brains were designed to keep us alive. That is the reason that they exist. Not to make sure we have our best life ever, not to make sure that we don't embarrass ourselves in, you know, a meeting or to make sure we're successful in our current lives. That's not

[00:24:27] what our brains were designed for. It was designed to keep you alive. And so even though we are in a very different world, different environment, our brains are still functioning like they did hundreds of thousands of years ago. And so when, you know, we say something that we think is silly, or when we start to worry that somebody will reject us or, you know, all the different reasons that our

[00:24:52] brain may respond and say, you're in danger. It is responding like it would if, you know, a bear jumped out. And understanding that I think is so helpful to understand that your brain isn't, it's doing what it's supposed to. Your brain isn't broken. It's understanding how can we overcome some of this natural wiring, right? How do you, how do you shift and, and, and being aware of it when it does

[00:25:18] those things that's expected. And you can say, okay, brain, you're being an asshole right now. And I'm going to choose to do something or think differently or respond differently. Yeah. It's, it's tricky. And you have to be willing to, to learn about it. Right. But I think, you know, I love how you, you phrase it. It's, it's pretty simple, right? That's just how we're

[00:25:43] built and that's okay. You're not broken and you can change that. You can rewire, you can lay down new neural pathways, but it does take some time. So let's, I guess this, that's a great way to, to get into like, okay, so we know our brains are assholes. We know they're doing things. We know we don't like change. Although interesting enough, like I've asked the audience a few times, like, raise your hand if, if you don't like change. And I honestly, I thought everyone

[00:26:11] would raise their hand. Yeah. No one did. And someone at SHRM did the same, same thing. And I'm thinking, okay, you're lying. So it's kind of interesting that people don't want to admit that they don't like change. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. I don't know. That was just kind of interesting human behavior that I noticed. We are as humans, not great at appreciating

[00:26:38] some of our natural tendencies, right? Our brains convince us of a lot of things, which is why I do talk about them as being assholes. They are in the background. Your brain is constantly telling you things that make you, they're very convincing and they're saying, no, this is dangerous or no, sure. You like change until you actually have to implement it. Right. Right. There are people

[00:27:04] that like change. So we don't want to suggest that, but it's a, it's a small subsection. Yeah. There are, there is a, there are several personality characteristics in particular openness to experience and we can go down that path if you want a big five, um, that, you know, and I happen to be high on that one, which we can talk about the good and a lot of bad that comes with that. Right.

[00:27:30] But so there are some people that they are naturally drawn to novelty and newness, but even those individuals have the same brain challenges I just talked about. Yep. And you know, it is, I think that in today's world, we talk about change so much, especially in the workplace that I think

[00:27:51] it's, um, a social threat to say that you don't like change. Right. I mean, and that's one of the ways that our brains try to keep us safe. Yeah. Social threat. Right. And in, in humans, we as humans, we're kind of, we're not very, we're not great when it comes to an organism, right? We're not stronger than bears and lions and tigers. We aren't faster than cheetahs. Like we, we don't have a lot that are

[00:28:19] going to keep us surviving in like, you know, the wilderness. And the thing that kept us alive was groups being in a social group. And so our brains are extremely just, I mean, so in tune to the slightest bit of social threat because that would mean potential death. And so anything that would make feel as though we might be rejected by the group, we are going to try to avoid our brain is going to

[00:28:49] try to convince us to avoid it. And nowadays, you know, being saying that you don't like change is almost like, yeah, that that's a social threat because we're, we all know that change is happening and we should be okay with it. Yeah. But yeah. No, I wholeheartedly agree. And it's interesting. Um, there was one, another through line in the SHRM conference and it was already something top of mind for me and I'm sure it is for you. And you

[00:29:14] just kind of mentioned it, psychological safety. Yeah. And Simon Sinek was there and he talked about that as well. Um, really creating that safe space. And when you don't have that safe space, then I do believe you have that social threat, right? That's exactly right. And people don't want to grow because they're afraid of being judged. They're already afraid of failing, but afraid of then being judged

[00:29:38] a potential failing. And then you lose innovation, you lose creativity and you start to dim the spark. Yeah. Because I'm, if I'm not growing, if I'm not stretching a little bit right out of my comfort zone, then I'm just kind of in groundhog day. You're stagnating. You're stagnating. Yeah. You're in a comfort zone. You're complacent, whatever you want to call it. You're not growing. Yeah. And if you're not growing, you're slowly dying. I'm sorry. Yeah. But that's just the reality of it.

[00:30:07] There is growth and then there's like abrupt change and helping people to like, I think you said stretch, but with stretch them without breaking. Right. Um, but psychological safety, the reason that that is so powerful is the exact reason I just talked about, right? If we feel like we cannot be, um, honest, open, if we are afraid that we will be rejected, that's what psychological safety is,

[00:30:36] right? The fear that if I speak up, if I challenge the status quo, if that I will be rejected by this group, that I will be ostracized. And it's different than trust. It's a different, uh, process than trust. They're connected, but, um, helping people to feel that it is okay to speak up, to share your

[00:31:00] perspective, et cetera, because we are not going to reject you is what helps individuals to have that, that brain safety to feel like they can take risks. They can, you know, innovate, they can be creative, but yeah, if you don't have psychological safety, you're going to be in that complacency stagnation. And if you're, you know, you can go to all the way to the other side where it's very toxic and, you know, you've hold another very bad situation. Right. Yeah. Well, that's, so that's one way.

[00:31:30] So we talked about our brain being an asshole. And so we've learned about that change and psychological safety certainly is one way as a leader or as a organization to create that culture of psychological safety. What are some other ways, Jamie, based on your experience and some of the challenges that you've seen leaders face, particularly, you know, ones that you've coached, what can we do? What are

[00:31:56] some practical takeaways that leaders can start to implement some small, some small wins? Yeah. So our brains react, um, to a few things. They react to uncertainty, uh, in terms of threat, right? So our brain is going to interpret uncertainty as threat. They are prediction machines. They want to know what's coming because if you know what's coming, you're able to be safer.

[00:32:21] Right. So, um, and there's, uh, lots of examples of the ways that our brains predict, they think that they know what is coming and it's going to generally go in the, in the, the negative direction if it doesn't have better information. Right. So I'm going to predict that this is dangerous until I know that it's not. So one of the things that leaders can do to help, um, to quiet people's asshole brains is to create a lot of clarity and, uh, uh, help people,

[00:32:51] to know what to expect. And again, people, good intending people and leaders that don't provide that level of clarity, just again, they're busy, they're stressed themselves. They don't have all the information. And so what you very common challenge that we see is that people aren't getting what they need to feel safe to know, say, I know what's expected of me. I know what my role

[00:33:18] entails. I know what's coming, you know, I'm getting the information necessary to feel safe. So that's one of the unintended ways that leaders trigger the asshole brain. Um, and of course the belongingness, psychological safety is another one. And the third big one. So we want to have certainty. We want to have belongingness. And the other one is that we want to have, uh, you know, agency, at least some, right. We don't. And so we have to feel like we have some control over

[00:33:48] ourselves. It doesn't mean I get to decide every single thing. People don't need that, but they also, if I feel like control is being taken away from me, I don't have my own autonomy whatsoever. That that's what you, that's where you get to like learn helplessness. I will completely, um, you know, I'll, I'll just go into the corner. I'm not going to do anything. I'm going to keep my head down. I will feel fearful and not speak up and not, you know, and so helping people to have

[00:34:16] that sense of at least where do they have agency, where can they make decisions? Um, how do we help people to have that sense of, you know, some control is really critical. So those tend to be the three big things that leaders, if they focus on those can make a big difference. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And for me, one of the things that I've learned, um, and just conversations and, and asking the question, I think comes back to kind of one central question, which is what's in it for me.

[00:34:46] Yeah. Yeah. What's in it for me. So if I have clarity around that, if I feel safe and knowing what I know and what the direction is, and if I have some agency, at least being involved in the conversation, right. Right. I think in my experience as a manager and not always a great manager,

[00:35:06] but as a learning manager was time, just giving people time, um, time to learn about them, learn about, know their pets names, know that their pets not doing well, and they're going to have to take them to the vets tomorrow or the kids are sick or whatever it is, just spending the time to get to know your people so that you can have these conversations and, and ask them, be genuinely

[00:35:34] curious about their life and their work and their role. And like, so how are you doing? How are you really doing? Do you like your role? Are you lit up? Do you like the things that you're doing? Um, I think those simple questions and just the time, which I know we, we don't have. And I think, honestly, I think that's one of the biggest problems is we're just, we've had, we're managing

[00:35:57] too many things. We're working on fumes and, uh, we're not giving our people the, the, the skills and the time to manage the people. If, if we did have the skills and when we don't have the time ourselves, we're not giving it to our teammates and therefore all those things that they're not getting good communication. So they're not having clarity. They don't feel safe. Um, and then they don't feel

[00:36:23] like they have any agency. So what's in it for me? I don't know. So I'm going to shut down. Curiosity is going to fade. Ownership is going to start to fade. And then I start to get disengaged, burned out and disengaged, checking out and then looking for something else, looking for something else, something, something better when maybe you have a really great employee and all it takes is a small intervention to ask those questions.

[00:36:48] And, and I think that managers going back to where we were, right? Most managers, I say that broadly, people leaders, they don't appreciate the small tweaks that they could be making in the way that they engage with their employees, with their teams to shift those things. Um, because they don't, they don't realize how powerful they are. Uh, it's unintended consequences of the fact that

[00:37:18] they, that they, the managers are running racket ragged, they're too busy, that they are prioritizing the wrong things. And, and that's where I think a lot of what I talk about with managers and leaders is shifting priorities, but the first they have to understand why these things are so important. You know, Gallup, one of the things that they, uh, published maybe a couple of years ago, they looked at all sorts of different things that managers could do with employees to, you know,

[00:37:48] what were the most powerful things to increase employee engagement? And what they found was one meaningful 30 minute meaningful meeting a week was the most powerful thing that people that a manager could do. And I tell everybody about this and it, that doesn't mean just meeting with them, not to talk about tasks. Right. And I, I really stress meaningful, like you said, knowing who they are,

[00:38:14] caring about what's going on in their lives, asking questions, connecting with them, caring about what they, you know, what they're doing in their work and what they want to do and trying to increase the, the, the things that light up their spark. Those are the things that managers could be doing. And in 30 minutes make a huge difference in individuals engagement. But again, managers are oftentimes don't realize the importance or power of that.

[00:38:42] We do it. We do it in our organization and we didn't always do it, but I tell you what, man, our retention increased threefold by having, by committing our managers, like your number one thing, our number one line item in our business is our people. Right. That's it. So everything you do should align to, yes, our clients absolutely important, right? The work we do. But if our

[00:39:07] people are not happy, none of this other stuff really, really matters. And you can't understand how happy or disappointed your people are if you're not giving them the time. So we committed to a one-to-one every week. Now, Jamie, some people need 30 minutes and others need an hour. Yes. Right.

[00:39:29] So not all created equal. And again, once you know your people, then you know the amount of time that they may need so you can prioritize, right? So maybe you want to have that longer conversation on a Friday with Johnny or Susie because they just need more time. That's just how they are. And that's fine. And then you'll have people that say they don't need any time. And I will push back against that. Yeah. Yeah. And too often, that's what I hear, right? Is, oh, they're fine. They don't need me.

[00:39:59] They'll let me know. I have an open-door policy. They can come by any time. And the challenge is, is that when we aren't ensuring we have protected, planned time, we are not having those meaningful conversations. Because when they come to you and they stop by your office, it's going to be, you know, here's my hair's on fire. Here's the big part, right? That's, that's when they're going

[00:40:25] to do that. And it's not these kinds of conversations where it's like, are you enjoying the work you're doing? What, where do you want to stretch? How do I help you do your best work? Right. Those, those conversations need to happen. And there are people that they don't, they don't appreciate or intrinsically value the social connection. And even if you're that kind of person, you still need it.

[00:40:50] Yeah. You still need it. My background, not as a psychologist, of course, but I spent many years in the VA and I was the leading the transformation towards servant leadership in the VA. And so I'm a, I'm a big proponent of servant leadership and, and, you know,

[00:41:14] I also call it empowering leadership, same, same. So I will say my personality, my natural personality is definitely the person that's like, I don't need to sit here and talk to you about your dog and your weekend. Let's get to work. Right. Anybody that knows the disc, I'm like a high D I'm a high DI, but really D or, you know, so that that's my natural personality. And if somebody like me can

[00:41:40] learn to appreciate why this stuff is important, I I'm always like, if I can figure, you know, if I can do this stuff, anybody can. But as I was engaging in the process of leading the servant leadership transformation and researching servant leadership, I mean, it is extremely powerful. So I would, I actually, with leaders that I talk to, that I coach, I don't, I don't actually believe

[00:42:06] that customer first or customer centered is the way to go ever. It should always be employee centered, put them first, everything else will fall into place. And that is not because Jamie says so that's because that's what the research is very clear. It's right. You know, you, you put your employees first, you support them and everything else will fall into place. You'll get better, you know, customer satisfaction. You'll get better organizational results, better profits, yada, yada, yada.

[00:42:35] Right. Right. And yeah, that's, that's Simon Sinek's main message as well, right? The infinite game, right? It's the long-term game. The long-term game is betting on your employees and not looking at short-term, short-term gains. Yeah. And, but that, that takes time, that takes commitment. But when you do that, the gold is there and your people remain lit up. Yeah. And when people are lit up,

[00:43:00] they'll go to war for you. That's absolutely true. Right? And all those other things fade away. Burnout, disengagement, stress, self-doubt. They might still be there and there'll always be some stress, stress, but it, it doesn't overwhelm us to the point that's, you know, we get burned out or disengaged because we know what's going on. Right. You know, um, it's, it's not some surprise at the year end performance review. Oh crap. Johnny's really not happy. And he's like burnt to a crisp on the

[00:43:29] ledge. Well, yeah. Have that one-on-one time schedule that in. And I love how you said like, make it a cadence. And it's so funny. You'll appreciate this. And my managers, they they've told me that. So we've made it a cadence. Everyone knows this is really important. And then they get super busy and they start moving it. Yeah. Rescheduling. And what we found in our ENPS surveys, people don't

[00:43:53] like that. No. So you gotta, you schedule that in and yes, every now and then, right. If a fire drill, you know, with a client or a product or something, yes, you need to get on it, but don't make it a pattern to where like, you're the one and they're expecting. We've had it to where some say, oh, I thought you were going to reschedule it. So I, you know, I wasn't kind of mentally planning for it. Um, so it's really important, get a cadence, try to stick to it as much as you can.

[00:44:22] It, I, I bring that point up all the time when I'm, you know, leading sessions for managers, because that is one of the most common ways that we undermine trust, right. Is by moving meetings or not showing up to meetings or showing up late. And it seems so innocuous. It doesn't seem like it's a big deal. You know, they're like, oh, well they're busy. They get it. No, actually what you do

[00:44:49] when you move a meeting, especially your one-on-ones is you send a message that you aren't as important as the other thing, right. You can't rely on me. You can't have that, uh, prediction of what I'm going to do. Safe. All of you're not safe. And all of those things erode trust unintentionally. The manager is, is, you know, and when you ask a manager, they'll be like, yes, I'm trustworthy. I, I do sessions on trust. And I always ask like, how many of you are trustworthy? And everybody

[00:45:17] raised their hand because we all believe we are trustworthy. But then, you know, you look at the numbers and many people do not believe that their managers are trustworthy. There's a, you know, a disconnect. And that's because we often don't realize the small things that we are doing that we, that erode that trust. Small things that add up, right. Yeah. So what are some other, do you have some other like tips and tricks? Yeah, absolutely. Well, going back to those three

[00:45:47] things that I mentioned, right. So individuals need agency, they need belonging and they need certainty or, you know, some clarity. And so managers often unintentionally erode trust by, um, not giving enough information. I don't have enough clarity. I feel fearful that erodes trust. Um, individuals who, again, and unintentionally they leave them out of a meeting when you're,

[00:46:13] they maybe should be there that erodes that trust because I'm maybe not, uh, you know, in the group anymore. And that, that kind of triggers that belongingness. So, um, as a manager being really intentional about how are you showing up in a consistent, predictable, uh, safe manner, connecting with them, caring, uh, providing clarity. Clarity is probably the biggest thing that I see, um, that unintentionally that managers do and unintentionally erodes trust is that

[00:46:42] they just don't, uh, provide enough clarity. And that lack of clarity is, um, it's a killer. It's scary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're, uh, it's funny, Jamie, we are super complex human beings, but at the end of the day, all we want is to be cared for. Right. It really comes back. We're so complex, but yet it really is

[00:47:09] simple. Um, and it just comes back to caring for your people. You know, work is, it's different now. Mm-hmm. Um, it is really different. I think we need to think of it that way. It's, it's blended. Yeah. It's not this work-life balance, work-life this or that. I had one guy on my show a few months ago and he said, work-life harmony. Yeah. And that resonated with me. Um, and I just, you know, think about our earlier conversation

[00:47:35] pre-show just in the kitchen talking about, um, you know, time and separation between work and life, but it really is all integrated. We're just all human. So let's not treat it in this high hierarchy way and just be more flat and more, we're just helping each other out. We're, we're all here to provide a great experience for each other and provide for our families. Um, at the end of the

[00:48:02] day, that's really what matters most to everybody. Yeah. I think too often that was a very common perspective in the past. Like you leave, you know, your personal life at the door when you're at work or whatever. And again, I, I always go back to the brain because that's what organizations are made up of as brains. Right. And, um, your brain does not distinguish between work stress and home stress.

[00:48:29] Right. And so if you have a lot of home stress, it is going to affect how you're showing up at work. Right. Your brain doesn't care where it's coming from. It's the bleed factor. Yeah. It's going to bleed in. Yeah. And vice versa. And it goes back to knowing your people. I give a great example. We had, I won't cite the employee, but employee whose spouse had been out of work for over a year, just couldn't land it, man. It is a tough,

[00:48:57] we know that. And so it wasn't that we gave this person a pass, right? We still held them accountable to our, our high standards and our core values, but having that information was gold, you know, and just knowing that that person is struggling inside. Right. So right now let's, let's try to, help them out, right. In the best way that we can. And that person appreciated all the little things

[00:49:25] that we have done for that person. Um, and not even like gifts as much as just, just caring and knowing like, Hey, and asking like, Hey, how, how are you? How are things? You know, we know it's been tough. Um, and not, uh, and maybe they're, they weren't at their peak performance during that time, but you know, that they're just, they're good people. They're just not all there

[00:49:50] right now. And, and that's part of that human piece. Think about it from a, that going back to social threat or belongingness, right? If I know that even I'm, I'm going through a tough time, I have things going on and you still, I do not fear that me not showing up at 110% that you will reject me and kick me out. Right. That, that makes a huge difference. And too often that's exactly what people experience

[00:50:20] is they're fearful. I have some thing going on at home. I have, you know, and, and will I be rejected? Will I be fired? Because I can't, you know, perform at my best or beyond. Right. And the funny thing is everybody's got something. Yep. I, I, in my talks, I say, okay, I'll give you permission to make, make the assumption this one time, right? Cause we always say, don't make assumptions. Yeah. Make it

[00:50:46] the assumption that every one of your employees is going through something right now. It might be big, it might be small, but they're going through something. So that having that empathetic leadership, I think is one of the most crucial traits that you can have as a great leader right now. Yeah. And I, again, I just, I can't help it. I'm a psychologist. So I think like a psychologist,

[00:51:10] right? And it doesn't matter if it's good or bad, right? It's, it's stress. So for example, imagine they are, they just graduated from school or they're getting married or they're moving into a new, they just bought a new house. These are all positive things, but they're still stressors and they still, if you think about the brain, they're still weighing on the brain. They're still taking

[00:51:36] up brain energy. You know, I like to think of the brain, I don't know, like a battery, right? So, you know, it's still draining the battery, even if it's good stuff. Yeah. That's a really good point. I never really thought of it like that, but you're absolutely right. It's, I mean, it's stress. I mean, planning for your daughter's wedding or a graduation party, right? It's all, it's all, it's coming out of the same energy source. And that's one of the reasons

[00:52:03] I, you know, focus so much on that is because if, once you start understanding that it's, you think of things very differently and you understand like, yeah, they might be having a great thing going on, but it still is taking energy away from what they can devote to work right now. And that's okay. Cause we are human and we're going to have times where we'll be at our peak and times where we won't. And that's okay. If we're going to be, we're all, we all have it. So, you know, if we're going to be

[00:52:32] any kind of decent human or employer, understanding that you, you have humans that you are employing until the bots take over, right? We're understanding that that is, everybody has something, even if it seems like it's not a terrible, stressful thing, it's still something. That's still something. 365 days is a long year. It's a long time. There's something's going to happen. So just knowing your, again, going back to the, I think the best thing you can do is that one-on-one. I agree.

[00:53:02] That 30, 45 minute one-to-one consistent cadence, stick to it, know your people, really get to know them. You'll know what's going on and being able to, I think, you know, from an HR perspective, what can they do? And one of the speakers talked about just being more flexible, right? And adaptable as an organization. And I know the bigger organizations that can get really tough like Cisco,

[00:53:31] I'm sure. But if we can have some policies in place where our managers can have a little wiggle room, right? So when you do spend that time and you know that somebody's in a tough spot, maybe you can do a little something for them, right? You just know, like we used to, if we know someone's struggling and they liked going to the spa, we would just buy them a massage package.

[00:53:57] Like we know you wouldn't do it for yourself. We know that you love it. And you probably put your family first before anything else. We just want you to spend some time for yourself. And I can't tell you getting those texts and emails like, wow, thank you. Like that was totally unexpected. Like I wouldn't have, no one's ever done anything like that for me. You're showing that you care, right?

[00:54:24] And that Cisco has been identified as the best place to work or in the top, you know, whatever, 50 over and over and over again, actually, because even though they are a huge organization, they have had a very caring, people-oriented culture. And the only reason I know about Cisco is because

[00:54:49] I'm one of the coaches for their leaders. And they offer coaching to all of their leaders because they know that that helps those leaders to be better and to provide better leadership and connection with their people. So, you know, and so if an organization like Cisco can do it, much smaller organizations can make it happen as well. Yeah. I'm all in on everybody should have a coach. Yeah. Every level, right? 100%.

[00:55:18] Yeah. We had a guidance counselor when we were in high school, whether we leveraged them or not. Even in college, we've all had somebody. It's not our spouse. It's not our manager. We need someone, a third party-ish, right? That we can really get off the bench and have kind of an unbiased conversation. And maybe it's just to vent, but having somebody there that can coach us through

[00:55:45] different things, different times, challenges, what have you. So I'm all in. Obviously, you and I are both coaches. But to your point about Cisco, one of the best places to work, one of them is they have committed, they put a line item out. They're putting their people first. Yes. And that's investment and that's growth. Right. You know? It's about helping them to grow because they know, you know, the managers, the leaders to grow

[00:56:11] because they know that will help the people. And they are extremely people-oriented and focused, which is amazing. Yeah. From a coaching standpoint, I always talk about, you know, brain hacks, obviously, because we're trying to overcome our asshole brains. And coaching is like the ultimate brain hack, isn't it? I mean, when you are engaged in the coaching process, you're rewiring your brain.

[00:56:36] You have an accountability partner. You have that, you know, social connection. There's all sorts of ways that coaching taps into those things that we want to do that are positive for our brains. And that's why I'm a big proponent of it. Yeah. I'm a coach and I've had a coach for many years, a high performance coach. And I still, the things that she taught me are integral to how I live my life right now. Yeah. And have made me be the best person that I can be. Invaluable.

[00:57:04] So what do you think made it so invaluable to you? What was the, what helped you to change? Like the specific things that- Yeah. Well, like what about, what about coaching worked for you, do you think? Oh, what about it just in general? Yeah. Having, having that person, I call it getting off my island. Yeah. You know, I have my wife, I have my colleagues, other leaders, friends, but this was different. Yeah. It was a, and it was safe. She was a great coach and it was a safe space. And it wasn't

[00:57:34] necessarily that I was going to learn something in that session. It was just, she was taking the time to get to know me where I was at. She met me where I was at. And then she always gave me some nuggets to ponder, to think about. And maybe, and oftentimes, honestly, I didn't agree. I'm like, okay. Those are the things that stuck with me. Like the one thing is embracing the

[00:58:02] journey. I'm a type A perfectionist syndrome, check the box, move on. And man, embracing that journey, it took me a while, but I talk about it all the time on the show, but invaluable to how I live my life and just enjoy every moment, be more presence. The things that are maybe most kind of a stretch, they, if you're open to hearing them and thinking

[00:58:30] about them, they can be the most powerful changes, right? Yeah. Yeah. But without something like coaching, how will you, you know, most of us don't even explore those things. Right. Yeah. And that's, and you said that kind of that accountability partner. Right. Which is nice. Accountability that, you know, that they're going to stretch you or at least push you, right? You know that you're going to have that session every other week or once a month or whatever the cadence is, but.

[00:58:56] Again, I use, I use what I know about the brain. And the thing about the brain is that we don't want to be rejected even from our coach. And so knowing that you're going to meet with that person again, whether it's a coach or a peer or, but just an accountability partner functions through that social threat. So we got to use those things for good. Yes. That helps to push us, right? And not for bad where they start to make us make choices that maybe don't help us. Right. Yeah.

[00:59:21] Absolutely. Jamie, this is, this has been wonderful. I knew it would be, I was so looking forward to it. You and I are, are one in the same. You just have a ton more education experience, but I'm right with you in terms of the things that we're passionate about. So I know you don't, you're not a big fan of tooting your own horn, but pick that, pick that up, show the screen. So if you're watching or if you're listening, read the, read the cover to our listeners.

[00:59:49] Your brain is a real asshole. The 21 day anti-journal for overthinkers, perfectionists, and other tired humans. I love it. So this is your upcoming book. Yes. I'm working on, it's an anti-journal for people who want to puke when they hear the word journaling. I love that. You're so funny. If you hang out with me at all, you know that I have a pretty sarcastic sense of humor. But yeah, it's, it's really to help people to hack their brains. Like we have been talking about,

[01:00:19] there are simple ways that we can use what we know about the brain. We can overcome our natural wiring that it's getting in our way. And that's what I'm, I'm going to be putting out there. So if you, if you want to be part of the early crew, I think I shared with you a link. I have a place you can sign up, get some of these things early before the book is fully published. Awesome. We'll add that to the show notes. Any date? Can we hold you? Accountability.

[01:00:49] Yeah, here we go. Time. I'm hoping this fall. Oh, this year. That's the hope. Wow. Wow. Now I really have imposter syndrome. Well, no. I started my book, put it on pause. Oh, it's a journal. It's not, you know, it's not a full on, you know, book, but I'm also getting married this fall. I threw that into the mix. So, you know, that kind of messes with, that might mess with the timeline. We'll see. We'll give you a pass on that. Yeah. Because remember, even good stress, it's still stress. Well, congratulations.

[01:01:18] Thank you. Thank you. Yes, yes. There'll be more about that. You know, Pixel is sponsoring the wedding. Not really. And that'll be a fun one. Because I know Brett, your soon to be husband, he's one cool cat, man. Well, thank you. Actually, now everybody knows that's okay, who it is. If you weren't, and you'll see him in the space. You work together, he's doing talks. Yeah, he did his first disrupt talk. Disrupt, yeah. It was very...

[01:01:47] Getting out of your comfort zone. You're rubbing off. I know. It's very pop. He did great. But don't worry, John Bernadovich was the first one to let the cat out of the bag. Oh, gotcha. Okay. And that's okay. We'll give John a pass. Yes. All right. So, Jamie, we're hitting the lightning bolt round. All right. These are quick one word, maybe two word answers. Okay. All right. What's currently igniting your spark right now? The book.

[01:02:17] Okay. The journal. The journal. Yes. Anti-journal. The anti-journal. All right. One word, two words. Okay. If you could describe leadership in one word, what would it be? People. Leaders born or built? Built. I figured. Who is a leader you admire and why? Barack Obama. Oh. I think he... Can I use more than one word for this? Yeah, go ahead. A short explanation.

[01:02:43] Okay. He's cool, calm, collected. He provides that certainty. He gives people that autonomy. I think he ticks a lot of the boxes. Cool. Cool fact. Maybe you already know this, but to help with decision fatigue, he had, I think, two suits. Yeah. I think a blue and a gray. Yeah. Until he wore that tan suit that one day, right? Yeah. So, it was one less decision he had to make. I actually use that. I was like,

[01:03:13] Oh, I like that. It's a smart decision. Same kind of thing. Zuckerberg, one black shirt. That's all he wears. Easy. It's a smart brain decision. Reduce the decision fatigue, the cognitive load. So, yeah. Or you can plan your outfit the night before, which I did. Yeah. I love it. It saved me. I didn't have to worry about it in the morning. Yes. Couple quick tips. Sorry. All right. Last one. Yep. Do you have a favorite leadership book? I know this is usually a tough one for leaders.

[01:03:41] Others. Yes. The Coaching Habit. Oh. That's a good one. It's in my other office. Yeah. By Michael. Oh, yes. Yeah. That is the book I recommend the most often. You're totally loving him. Yeah. Like he is just fun, quirky, really authentic. Yeah. The Coaching. Yeah. I love his style. It's easy read. It's fun to read. Yep.

[01:04:09] But also, I always say that the one skill that leaders, if they want to achieve all the other stuff that we have been talking about today, is coaching. If they can adopt that, everything else falls into place. That's so funny. I bought that for all my leaders last year. Yeah. Because I read it and I was like, oh, this is so good. Yeah. Be a coach.

[01:04:32] You know, Shirzad Shamin, who's the creator of Positive Intelligence, has an analogy story that he always uses. You know, do you want to catch a fish every day for somebody? Or would you rather spend a little extra time to teach them how to catch a fish? Right. That's exactly it. It's up to you. And it's coaching. It's supportive.

[01:04:58] But also, simply, if you're not going to be a coach who's working with someone over time like we do, simply curiosity, asking good questions, listening. I mean. It goes a long way. That is the core and essence of really good leadership. Absolutely. Oh, don't get me started on curiosity. I'll come back. That's part two. Yeah. All right.

[01:05:21] So if you could leave the audience with one magical Jamie quote, what would that be? Your brain is a real asshole, but you don't have to let it win. All right. Done. Mic drop. Mic drop. Jamie, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you. I love you and everything that you're doing. So much energy, so much fun, so authentic.

[01:05:45] And I think for this type of topic that is incredibly important, especially right now, we need to have a little fun with it. Let's just have some fun. Right. Right. Yes. Work doesn't have to be hard and boring and draining. We need more fun. We need more fun. That is my goal is to help people to have more fun. We can achieve serious things while having fun. And let's spread it. Yeah.

[01:06:15] All right. Thank you, my friend. Thank you for having me. It's been awesome. Thanks for spending time with us on The Bolt Podcast. If today's conversation sparked something for you, please share it with someone who could use it. That ripple is how we create impact and light the way for others. Remember, growth doesn't come from giant leaps. It comes from small intentional shifts that build over time. Ignite your spark. Fuel the fire and light the way. We'll see you next time, my friends.

[01:06:46] Thank you.