Aligning talent acquisition and compensation when jobs keep changing

[00:00:00] Join us on a journey where we unravel the latest trends, tackle your burning questions and explore innovative strategies that are shaping the future of compensation, all with a coffee in hand.

[00:00:16] Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Comp and Coffee. And today in this episode we're going to be talking about how talent acquisition and compensation can speak the same language and how we think they should be working together in the landscape of work today. One of the biggest challenges that I'm seeing in HR isn't just how people are paid, but it's how jobs themselves are changing in the pace at which that's happening.

[00:00:41] New skills we know are emerging overnight and AI is transforming responsibilities. Job titles definitely don't tell the whole story anymore. And while talent acquisition in that context is trying to hire for what's needed today, we know compensation is often building frameworks that support the business more longer term for the future. And sometimes those priorities don't perfectly align and sometimes they do.

[00:01:06] So in this episode, we're going to explore how an organization can build stronger partnerships between these two teams and make hiring decisions better, create compensation strategies that keep pace with an evolving workforce. And I have two wonderful guests joining me for the first time on Comp and Coffee today. We have Danielle and Michelle from International Dairy Queen. And I'm going to let them introduce themselves before we progress any further. Danielle, over to you. Thanks, Ruth.

[00:01:35] As you said, my name is Danielle Dubois and I'm the head of Global Rewards, HR Systems and Talent Acquisition at International Dairy Queen Companies, otherwise known as IDQ. I've spent more than 25 years working in this space. The majority of those years I've spent in compensation, which is my true love, other than my husband and my kids, of course. I've been at IDQ for about eight years.

[00:02:00] And in my role, I've had the privilege of leading a wonderful group of talented HR professionals who support employees across the globe. I'm excited to be here today, Ruth. And I'll turn it over to Michelle for her to do her introduction. Thank you, Danielle. My name is Michelle Antonsen and I work at IDQ. And I have been in the leading the talent acquisition team. I've been in the TA space for, gosh, probably about over 25 years, similar to Danielle.

[00:02:30] And about nine years with IDQ. So happy to be here to join you guys. Well, thank you both for joining me today. And this is ideal because we're going to be talking about the relationship between compensation and TA. So I'm going to be interested to see how this plays out today. Of course, the podcast is called Comp and Coffee. So it would be remiss of me not to ask you, as we often ask our guests, what's your go-to coffee order? And if you're not a coffee drinker, what's your favorite morning beverage, Michelle?

[00:03:00] I think probably a good iced shaken espresso. Mm-hmm. Can you get one of those in Dairy Queen? Unfortunately, you can't. Ruth, that's a good question about the coffee. I just like mine very plain. Just light roast. Easy. Good, good. Well, I hope you both got your coffee ready. And let's dig into the conversation.

[00:03:25] So I'd like to start with considering why it is that TA and comp often see the world differently. And I'm interested to hear your perspective here. We know that both these teams have a significant influence on who the organizations hire and how they grow their workforce. But I also understand that their approach can come from very different perspectives.

[00:03:46] Recruiters are often responding to candidate expectations and hiring urgency, while the statistics that they're measured on are things like time to fill, offer acceptance and candidate experience. Compensation teams are normally thinking about consistency, governance of compensation structures, internal equity, market data, and maybe more long-term sustainability.

[00:04:11] I'm going to come to you both then and talk about why you think this disconnect happens. Michelle, I'm going to ask you to start off first. Yeah, I think the TA teams are really focused on filling the roles with your best available talent and as quickly as possible. That's obviously what our goal is. So we're looking for a lot of skills, capabilities from candidates. We're looking at the market availability.

[00:04:40] Geographical plays a big part for Dairy Queen since we recruit for positions globally. Another thing is the candidate experience. We want to move things quickly to make sure that we have a strong candidate experience. And then, of course, our time to fill in quality of hire. So when you bucket all of those together, you find yourself coming to that point with a candidate saying, this candidate's exceptional.

[00:05:05] If we don't move quickly and offer it, we're going to lose this top talent and we might have to pay over that pay range. So really, ours is driven a lot by the market realities that we face. And Danielle, how does that play out for you? Well, it's interesting because from a comp perspective, when you have your compad on, you're looking at other things that perhaps the talent acquisition team isn't focusing on.

[00:05:30] Compensation professionals are really trying to ensure that all decisions are fair and that they're equitable, but also making sure that they're market competitive. So some of the things that compensation professional on the flip side may be looking at is internal equity, salary structure, integrity, and also keeping in mind the budget, right? Every company only has a certain amount of dollars to spend.

[00:05:54] So using that example that Michelle talked about where you may have to offer a candidate above a pay range or a targeted hiring range, the compensation professional may come back to that talent acquisition or that recruiter and say, hey, that's putting too much compression into the structure and we need to sit down and have a conversation. So it's really a balance between the two and trying to come up with the best offer that we could.

[00:06:23] Great. So I think I've heard a lot of those conversations in my time working in compensation. Can you talk a little bit more about what happens when these teams aren't aligned, perhaps, Danielle? Yeah, I think when they're not aligned, what you will end up leading into is pay equity issues. Oftentimes, if you're not aligned on the front end, it just sets you up for further issues from not only a pay equity perspective, but a compression.

[00:06:53] And when I say compression, I'm referring to perhaps you're bringing candidates in that are even above their leaders' pay rate or other individuals who have more skills that are already within the organization. So it really creates misalignment within the compensation structure.

[00:07:12] Additionally, as I've seen at some organizations, when you think about total rewards, if the benefit package isn't competitive, oftentimes you may run into negotiations on the front end to offset poor total rewards packages. And that creates misalignment. So it might not only be the rates that you're offering to get that candidate in, but it could also be a different issue, maybe on your benefit side, that you need to explore.

[00:07:43] And I think really sometimes then some of those misalignments really impact at that offer process stage. And that's where you have a delay in that offer process. And then you start to lose that high quality candidate. And then you're also, you're having an issue with your candidate experience.

[00:08:02] And the total reward conversation that you were just talking about there, Danielle, do you find yourself in that situation, Michelle, where you're having to explain the total reward package and explain to candidates why it's different than their expectations and what the whole package is that you're offering? Absolutely. Absolutely. We really have to kind of piece it all out to determine kind of and help them understand the bigger picture.

[00:08:27] I mean, I know it's always a problem, like candidates looking at the headline number, like what was my paycheck going to be? But there's a lot that we can do during these early conversations around explaining, you know, that total employee value proposition, I guess, as well. It's like, what else are you getting from coming to work for, you know, IDQ or beyond that? Yeah.

[00:08:50] I would also add on to that, that I think for the talent acquisition individuals, the more tools that they have to help them communicate that, the better. Right. So oftentimes candidates will look at base pay and not really understand the full comp package as well. Right. So how does their incentive work?

[00:09:08] One of the things that we're doing at Dairy Queen is working on an infographic to help the recruiters communicate how the bonus plans work at Dairy Queen to help with that conversation. So to your point, kind of explaining that bigger picture. It's not just about base pay. So the problem that we've talked about, I think it's been around for quite a while. What is new though, is the pace at which jobs are changing right now.

[00:09:37] So jobs definitely aren't static anymore. And defining talent and finding what you need to hire in that environment is quite tough. So we used to build job structures that stayed relatively stable for years. You could probably guarantee that your job title, sorry, your job description, you know, lived with you for at least 12 months. But that isn't really the case today. You know, jobs are evolving constantly as organizations change and new requirements come in. AI, new technologies, new skill requirements.

[00:10:07] It's all moving so much faster now. At the same time, job titles don't always tell the full story. We know organizations have to evaluate the work being done, the skills required and what the work is worth in today's market. And maybe not when the salary range was struck six, eight, 12 months earlier. So I'm interested to hear from you, like, how do you think about organizing and how do you think about evaluating talent beyond job titles alone, Danielle?

[00:10:36] Danielle Pletka That's a really good question. And kind of how you teed off the question is a thing I think a lot of organizations are struggling with right now. Even talking about do you include AI as a requirement in job descriptions for positions, perhaps like for a finance role? When we look at evaluating compensation for positions at Dairy Queen, we don't look just at the title.

[00:11:02] One of the best practices in comp is to actually look at the core job duties of that position to make sure that they align better with the market. At Dairy Queen, one of the things we do is block out the job title when we're reviewing survey matches with people leaders within the organization. That helps us ensure that there isn't any bias from that job title coming into play when we are truly trying to anchor to that market. Danielle Pletka That's got sick. That's a clever approach.

[00:11:34] Michelle, any comments there? Danielle Pletka Yeah, I was just going to add on to Danielle's comment is sometimes there is disconnect that we find between the written job descriptions and then truly what the hiring leader is looking for. So it'll come to us and we'll start to recruit for it. And then the disconnect happens when the hiring manager starts to kind of really outline an ideal candidate. And so in a recruiter world, they like to call them the unicorns.

[00:12:01] And so as we are taking the candidate profile, it's really commanding a higher market pricing for the skill sets or that ideal candidate that they're looking for. So then sometimes it's then going back to within HR and reworking the job description, rework at the market pricing, and then ultimately changing hiring ranges because of that. Danielle Pletka Right. So both of you gave some great tips there. So is this something that you're experiencing?

[00:12:28] You know, what are the challenges of determining market value in a rapidly changing labor market? And is this something that you're experiencing right now? Danielle Pletka Absolutely. I think, you know, one of the areas that we tend to see this more is in our IT area alone. Technology continues to change and we need individuals who can be able to change with that technology. I remember coming back or when I started at Dairy Queen, they were just starting to implement more of their mobile app development.

[00:12:58] And we had the challenges of really trying to acquire that talent within the market because there was that was an emerging skill set. And so the market ranges weren't quite reflecting what we were seeing in the market, given how little talent there was out there. So that started to have an impact as we started to see more of the demand and the pay rates not really reflecting the accurate data that we had gotten. Danielle Pletka Yeah, I'll add on if that's okay, Ruth.

[00:13:28] I think what ends up happening sometimes because there's an inherent lag in the compensation data, right? Compensation data traditionally is collected at one point in time during the calendar year. And then there's a several month lag from when that data is published. So it's inherently a little bit behind. We use aging factors to move the data forward to offset the time value of money.

[00:13:53] But there are times where we have to be a little bit more flexible and say, okay, that data is old. We're moving faster. We're seeing the market move faster. So we maybe need to use a little bit more of art in determining those rates that are coming in versus that science. Beth Dombkowski Yeah, that's something we're seeing increasingly happen. I mean, obviously, that's one of the data options we have here at Payscale is our peer data set that you can use alongside your salary survey data.

[00:14:20] That is a more near real time or dynamic data set that is trying to keep pace with these emerging skills. And I think I've said it before in the past, you know, we did observe in 2025 for the first time a job emerge in that data set and disassemble or disappear within like a 12-month cycle. So if you're thinking about a traditional salary survey, that particular role may not even have, you know, like ever turned up.

[00:14:50] Yeah, that's a good point, Ruth. And I think what I've seen in some survey companies, and I believe Payscale is one of them, is you actually have shifted towards publishing data quarterly, if I remember correctly. Beth Dombkowski Yeah, more and more of that as we're just trying to track. Because I also think what we're seeing is skills being hot, like for a shorter period as well, you know, like for a six-month, three-month period.

[00:15:15] So you want to, like the challenge that Michelle's got, she's got this unicorn candidate with the exact skill. And that skill is just very hot now. You know, one of the things we're seeing is it's not in the typical roles that you're seeing potentially those unicorn skills right now. I was hiring a marketing role the other day, and we wanted them to have, like, experience using AI platforms in marketing so that they could bring some of that expertise in, along with the other long list of requirements.

[00:15:45] You know, that's not as common. And so you're going to maybe pay a bit more for the person who does have that skill today. I'm sure in another 12 months' time, we'll have more people because we're all learning and acquiring these AI skills into our, like, everyday jobs. And so we'll maybe see the premium for that dissipate. Okay, I want to go back to some of the examples you gave earlier.

[00:16:09] Some great examples of kind of the challenge of the different perspectives between compensation and TA and the fact that the market is moving very fast and often faster than internal structures. And we know hiring managers always want to make an exception. You kind of gave an example of one earlier. How do you balance hiring flexibility with maintaining a sustainable compensation strategy? We've talked about the problem. How do you solve for it? I think, Danielle, you're going to start us off here. Sure.

[00:16:39] You're right, Rose. Sometimes candidates' desired compensation may be at the high end of a range, right, that we weren't expecting to pay. And that can sometimes also create compression issues, as we talked about before. What we do at Dairy Queen is we make sure that we're not only looking at that market competitiveness, but also that internal value of that role.

[00:17:02] And sometimes we need to throw out the external market data and say the market's moving either faster than what we were expecting and then look at internal job value. And that's called slotting into the salary structure to accommodate those local market pressures. And really, as I mentioned before, this is where you have to bring in that art into the compensation conversation because it's not always that science.

[00:17:27] And Michelle, what trade-offs do organizations face when they're attracting talent in these competitive markets? Yeah, I would say one of the biggest trade-offs organizations face today is really balancing the needs of attracting with the realities of a longer time to fill. Increasing compensation, you know, particularly in competitive talent markets, I think is really what we see.

[00:17:56] So if we want the talent, sometimes it's going to take longer to get there. I think a couple other things that we're seeing is we're thinking a little bit more of this buy versus build strategy. And basically, are we going to spend over to get that talent or are we going to take and build that talent internally?

[00:18:16] And I would say then finally, we're really finding that when compensation flexibility is limited, that companies are often challenged to really look at their employee value proposition. So sometimes you kind of mentioned that I think a little bit earlier is that sometimes you do have to look at their sign-on bonuses. Sometimes you do have to look at work flexibility, really attracting them with a clearly defined growth path.

[00:18:45] So some of those other kind of trade-offs that you have to look at. I think more importantly, as a recruiter and really as a partner to our hiring managers, sometimes it's even thinking creatively. So thinking, how do we need to adjust the job to meet the needs of the organization with the talent that we're seeing? Or secondly, do we go fully remote and really open up our candidate pool? So those are just a couple of alternative ways that we have kind of approached.

[00:19:15] Yeah, that's a good idea. I hadn't really thought about that, especially when it's such a hard to fill role. I guess you're at the front line in terms of being able to see the talent availability out in the market. And you're the person that could communicate that kind of back in to the organization. So what are some of the lessons that you've learned from collaborating across the HR functions to help solve these problems?

[00:19:37] I think a couple of them, and it really even aligns to the IDQ values, is when we work together, we're better together. So really having a better understanding of each other's goals and challenges, I think, really enables us to really feel then empowered to move faster, to make stronger decisions and achieve better results overall.

[00:20:02] So I want to talk then about how we can build a shared language between these two functions. And I'm really interested to hear your story a bit more, Danielle and Michelle. What I think I'm hearing is that alignment doesn't just happen because you turn up to the same meetings. It happens because you sit and agree what good looks like. So what does a shared language between talent acquisition and compensation look like? And how have you gone about building stronger partnerships?

[00:20:30] And how are you both working towards continually approving that? It's a great question, Ruth. It's one of the things that what we've done at Dairy Queen are very unique. I've never seen it at any other organization I've worked at. During the COVID pandemic, we made a strategic decision to have talent acquisition report to me, the head of total rewards at the time.

[00:20:51] While I've never been a recruiter nor managed a talent acquisition function before, it made sense to better align the two functions at the time. And we've kept it that way ever since. The reporting relationship has strengthened organizational alignment so that we are more integrated and that we can make faster decisions as an HR team.

[00:21:14] Additionally, together, we've implemented clear processes and guardrails that have helped provide structure for the job offer process while empowering our talent acquisition team to make decisions on the front end without having to wait for me for approval. We've also added in some guardrails where if a offer is going out that is above a certain point, then they do need to get approval.

[00:21:41] But otherwise, we've removed some of that red tape around it so that we can move a little bit faster on the front end. And how's that working for you, Michelle? It works really well. What I would say is, just to piggyback off of Danielle's comment, really under her leadership, we've been able to create a compensation 101.

[00:22:04] So prior, we weren't talking the same languages, whether it was compensation, the recruitment team, or the hiring managers. So now we have a common baseline understanding. So when we talk about that, we're all speaking the same language. And now we all know what a comp ratio is. I think secondly, in 2023-2024, we partnered with Danielle to really take an opportunity to do some people leader training.

[00:22:32] That was something that we saw a need for. So instead of the compensation team being the only one in the room, we attended all of those meetings. And it was nice because it provided that connection to give that real life example. We've been on the front end with the hiring leaders. We've experienced that. And we've been able to really kind of tie that theory back to real life. So that's been one of those great opportunities.

[00:22:57] And then I think, you know, overall, we've also had the opportunity to really raise our hand and participate in some cross-functional opportunities, such as salary surveys. So it really helped us better understand from that cross-training. It's given us kind of a better opportunity to understand the broader organizational context. So I think, you know, if you bucket all three of those, those have really helped us kind of really move the needle on that cohesiveness.

[00:23:27] So it definitely seems to be this common trend that we're seeing of the need to, like, disseminate information from compensation. I mean, I worked in compensation for like 25 years. And, you know, everything was very secret. And I was often locked in a room somewhere and no one knew what I did. And I was quite happy that no one knew what I did. And we really didn't share the information.

[00:23:49] But with all the challenges that we have today, like sharing it with TA so that they can make this work, sharing it with managers, as you said, Michelle, so that they can, like, have the right conversations just seems really critical today. Yeah, Ruth, and I think it's given the talent acquisition team just some more insight as to even what goes into a salary survey, right? Like, what are the types of questions that are asked? And so Michelle and her team has actually done salary surveys.

[00:24:15] It's taken them, granted, a little bit longer to complete the surveys from the comp analysts. But it's given them a lot more opportunity to fully understand the data and where it's coming from. Well, that's cool. I'm not sure I would wish completing salary surveys on to anyone, Michelle. But good on you. Good on you. Okay, let's look ahead a bit more. We know then from our discussion so far that the relationship between talent acquisition and compensation just feels more important than ever. How do we think this is going to evolve?

[00:24:45] What should HR leaders be preparing for next? And how do you both see that relationship between your two functions evolving? Good question. I agree that the relationship between talent acquisition and compensation is evolving. I think it's evolving from more of a transactional partnership to a strategic one. Historically, in my experience, talent acquisition is focused solely on filling roles, right? And how fast can I get someone in that seat?

[00:25:14] Where now I think it's a little bit more of a partnership and a strategic one. Today, both teams need to work cohesively and work together much earlier in the process to navigate that competitive labor market. Not only that labor market, but also to have a better understanding collectively of pay transparency requirements. Whether you're in the EU or Canada, what are those requirements on that front end?

[00:25:41] Also to work better together to have that mutual understanding of the evolving candidate expectations. Michelle and her team is much closer to what's happening on the front end. But if I can be a piece of that conversation, we can maybe shift and adapt some of our compensation strategies at the same time. Great. And Michelle, from your perspective, what are some of the emerging challenges that you're seeing and thinking about preparing for? Yeah, I'd probably give you maybe my top three.

[00:26:11] The first is we talked a lot about this kind of with AI. And I would say that first, the skills that employers need today are just rapidly changing due to AI. So I think, and that's in every function, just to clarify that. I think organizations are really rethinking how they're going to evaluate the talent based upon AI coming into the picture. So that is the first thing that kind of comes to mind. The second is, you know, we have paid transparency.

[00:26:41] And so candidates today expect to see more with transparency around compensation than ever before. And so I think organizations really need to find that right balance between the transparency and making sure that we're still competitive in the market while maintaining that internal equity. And then I would say, finally, employer branding is becoming even more important in a competitive market. Candidates have choices of where they want to go.

[00:27:10] And we've even now with remote work have opened that up nationwide. So I would say they're really paying close attention to what is it like to work in the organization? What does the culture look like? What does the leadership look like? All of those really play into the overall picture. And it's not always just about the compensation package. So candidates want a complete picture today. Yeah, it's really important, particularly in the sector that you're in.

[00:27:38] And, you know, you're one in one of the sectors where we know that competing for talent is hard. So I can see that differentiation being really important. And Danielle, any advice for HR leaders working to create greater alignment across teams? Yeah, I said one piece of advice that I'd offer HR leaders is to intentionally bring talent acquisition and compensation closer together whenever possible.

[00:28:02] While I recognize organizational structures vary and it might not be possible to have them report up through the same leadership channel, I think that is one of the biggest and most impactful things that we've done at Dairy Queen to gain that alignment and collaboration within our team. I think equally important as an HR leader is investing that time and that cross-training and providing those opportunities for compensation

[00:28:28] and talent acquisition to understand each other's work. And that's some of the most valuable learning has come from on our teams is giving our team members exposure. And so I think that those are the main things that I would suggest for an HR leader. Well, I think I've really enjoyed hearing how your relationship has played out and how you've made this work and faced, you know, facing the challenges that we do.

[00:28:56] I think you've had some really great ideas for the audience today. As you say, like aligning closely on goals, cross-training. I love the idea of like cross-training each other in the roles. So hopefully you've given the audience lots of inspiration on how they can think about bringing the two teams together so that we're kind of focused on winning, basically, which is what we're all trying to do here. So I think what we've heard is talent acquisition and compensation definitely aren't solving for different problems.

[00:29:24] They're solving for the same problem, but from different perspectives. And as jobs continue to evolve, building stronger partnerships like we've heard from Michelle and Danielle today seems to me to be really important and the way forward in terms of the challenges that we're facing. So I'd say thank you very much, Danielle. Thank you very much, Michelle, for first time visiting the Comp and Coffee podcast. And for joining us today to share your insights. Thank you for having us.

[00:29:54] And as always, audience, we'd love to hear from you. How is this taking shape in your organization? If you've got a good story about how you've been working together in compensation and TA, we'd love to hear about it. It's something that we're thinking a lot about at the moment here at Payscale. And if you have anything you'd like to say or any other ideas for upcoming episodes, then you can email us at coffee at Payscale.com or tag us on LinkedIn with your questions and suggestions.

[00:30:22] And we'll be delighted to hear from you in terms of ideas for future episodes. So thank you again, everybody. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Danielle. Thank you, Michelle, for your time. And see you all next time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.