018: Neurodiversity Essentials and Inclusive HR Strategies for 2025

[00:01:03] Hey, what's going on everybody? David Noe with SpeakEasy HR presented by Payroll Partners. It is December 9th. The holidays are in full swing and it doesn't feel like December out with it raining and being 50 where we are, but here we are almost the end of the season of 2024 and we've got a great guest on today, Sammy Kelly with Beyond Neurodiversity. Welcome, Sammy. How are you today?

[00:01:30] Oh, thank you. I'm doing great. I'm super excited to be here and in the full holiday spirit. You can't tell, but I've got Christmas lights on my bookshelf behind me, but we're ready to go. We're looking forward to it.

[00:01:41] There you go. Yeah, I finally had my kids. Well, since Thanksgiving, they've been wanting to listen to Christmas music and I said, or no, actually since Halloween, sorry, I don't start until Thanksgiving. They want to start right after Halloween. It's like, all right, it's November. It's time to listen to Christmas music. I'm like, nope. I'm not going to start.

[00:02:00] We're not, we're not doing that yet. So, uh, you know, now listen to Christmas music, getting in the spirit. Went to King Zion last night, as I told you before we came on, went to, uh, uh, Winterfest, which I've never been to, which was a lot of, a lot of people, a lot of fun.

[00:02:15] But, um, anyway, we are live on LinkedIn and YouTube. So if you are watching live comment, where you're watching, comment, any, anything about this topic that you want to learn.

[00:02:29] Sammy is here to help us all learn about this since this is her, her new business that she has started over the last few months. So we'll get into that a little bit.

[00:02:37] So again, this is a sponsored by payroll partners. I want to definitely ask people a couple of questions. If this will pop up before we get into it, let me see if it'll actually work.

[00:02:55] Say no more hotlines at all times. No more to payroll emergencies.

[00:03:02] Plus you get a human element. True.

[00:03:06] Your service.

[00:03:10] Especially during this.

[00:03:13] So learn more about payroll partners at payrollpartners.net.

[00:03:17] So, Sammy, you have watched this before and I have the envelopes ready.

[00:03:26] Yeah.

[00:03:27] So for those who have not watched this before, like I said, we are live.

[00:03:32] If you are a fan of Sammy and her work, definitely ask her questions as we go.

[00:03:37] But if you haven't watched this before, I always ask my guests a couple of questions that just help us get to know them a little bit more in this time that we have on this live.

[00:03:47] So there's 15 questions in the envelopes and I try to give the guests, you know, obviously some questions that are pretty easy to answer.

[00:03:55] And so I call it the world famous envelope icebreaker game.

[00:04:00] So we're going to get that started here in a minute.

[00:04:04] I cannot wait to see what a little sneaky QR code there.

[00:04:10] That was my fault.

[00:04:11] This is a one man show over here.

[00:04:13] So sometimes I get a little, a little happy with the clicks.

[00:04:17] All right.

[00:04:17] So one through 15, Sammy.

[00:04:19] So if you have a number in mind.

[00:04:23] Let's go with eight.

[00:04:25] Eight feels lucky today.

[00:04:26] Okay.

[00:04:27] I don't know if anyone's picked eight yet.

[00:04:29] Ooh.

[00:04:29] Okay.

[00:04:30] Number eight.

[00:04:32] I try to move them around a little bit just in case if people pick seven every time.

[00:04:36] It's not the same, same question, but all right.

[00:04:40] What is your favorite TV show?

[00:04:44] Oh, oh no.

[00:04:48] Parks and Rec.

[00:04:50] I don't know why I said, I don't know.

[00:04:51] That should have been an immediate parks and rec.

[00:04:54] Uh, Nope is my hero.

[00:04:56] And my husband, uh, reminds me a lot of her husband in the show.

[00:05:00] So, um, it's a great Halloween costume.

[00:05:03] It's inspirational.

[00:05:04] It's funny.

[00:05:06] Uh, you can't go wrong with parks and rec.

[00:05:08] Okay.

[00:05:09] Yeah, that is, that is a great show.

[00:05:10] I've, I've watched some of it.

[00:05:12] I haven't watched like every episode.

[00:05:14] I've, I've watched the office a few times.

[00:05:16] That's one of my, my go-tos, but, um, all right.

[00:05:20] You want to do one more?

[00:05:21] Sure.

[00:05:23] Out of eight or not eight, but any other number come to mind?

[00:05:26] Let's go 14.

[00:05:28] 14.

[00:05:30] All right.

[00:05:31] So number, number 14 it is.

[00:05:35] Let's see.

[00:05:38] All right.

[00:05:39] What is your favorite piece of career advice?

[00:05:47] Oh, that's really hard.

[00:05:49] Um, actually I'll, I don't know if this is my favorite, but this is one that I read today,

[00:05:55] which I thought was really, really interesting.

[00:05:57] Okay.

[00:05:58] When you're looking at your career, especially if you are at a point of pivoting or maybe like

[00:06:04] you're stuck, you're not sure where to go.

[00:06:06] Think of, do you want your life to be a career centered career or a lifestyle centered career?

[00:06:13] Yeah.

[00:06:13] Do you want to be spending your free time upskilling, networking, engaging in your community and,

[00:06:19] and really building your life around your career?

[00:06:22] Or do you want to be building a career around your lifestyle where you're doing maybe more

[00:06:27] volunteer work?

[00:06:28] Maybe you're picking and choosing the clients and the hours.

[00:06:31] Maybe you're not making the most money, but you have that work life balance and then

[00:06:37] kind of go on from there and begin your search.

[00:06:39] Um, I know that's been a place that I've been where I wasn't quite sure which direction

[00:06:44] I wanted to go.

[00:06:45] Um, and I just thought that was really, really good advice.

[00:06:48] Yeah, no, that's, that's really good advice.

[00:06:51] I, I have teenagers now.

[00:06:55] Uh, well, one going to have another one soon.

[00:06:57] One's going to be driving next year.

[00:06:59] And so I, I, I'm trying to help them along their education, but just also beyond school.

[00:07:08] Like, what do they really want to do?

[00:07:10] What are they going to do after school?

[00:07:11] And just, you know, finding, finding conversations to have with a 15 year old about like work.

[00:07:17] Like he knows what I do to some extent and in human resources and, and working with people

[00:07:23] and, and having challenging conversations.

[00:07:25] And, you know, I, not that I like give them a whole lot of detail, but it's just like, you

[00:07:30] know, I try to tell them if the faster you can find a passion in something and be able

[00:07:35] to make money and just wake up and look forward to going, whether you're making money or not,

[00:07:39] like that's, that's ideal.

[00:07:41] And it's sometimes takes people a while to figure that out.

[00:07:46] Yeah.

[00:07:46] Like sometimes it really does.

[00:07:47] Like you don't wake up as a 22 year old and you're like, oh, I'm passionate about this.

[00:07:52] I'm going to make a lot of money or I'm going to do this for my whole career.

[00:07:55] So it just, you know, I, I wish I had more people when I was younger kind of tell me those

[00:08:01] kinds of things.

[00:08:01] Cause I never really thought about that when I was younger, it was more like, oh, I want

[00:08:06] to play golf.

[00:08:06] I want to play on the PGA tour and make a ton, you know, a ton of money playing golf.

[00:08:11] Like that was, but now I'm pivoting is okay.

[00:08:15] Like I see your sign behind you champions adjust, right?

[00:08:18] Pivoting is,

[00:08:19] Pivoting is adjust.

[00:08:21] Absolutely.

[00:08:22] Okay.

[00:08:22] And if anything encouraged, I spent the first couple of years of my career going, I never

[00:08:27] want to be an entrepreneur.

[00:08:28] I had seen my dad do it and I was going no way, no how.

[00:08:32] And then lo and behold, here I am.

[00:08:33] And, um, I think my dad's reveling in that, that a little bit.

[00:08:41] Yeah, no, that's, uh, it's exciting.

[00:08:44] And so for folks that are watching live, I, every show I have a guest on and we talk about

[00:08:51] something passionate in their world.

[00:08:53] So going into episode, what are we at 18 now?

[00:08:58] Every single guest has had a, a personal story, a background and experience in something that

[00:09:04] really has brought this show a lot of, uh, just authenticity and having somebody to share

[00:09:12] their experiences that relates to the topic.

[00:09:14] And it's been, it's been really uplifting and I've learned a lot through all of it.

[00:09:19] Now you're in a situation where you started this business.

[00:09:22] You were with a local HR consultant for seven years.

[00:09:26] You were in marketing, talent acquisition, consultant work, and then you pivoted and you

[00:09:31] started your own business.

[00:09:33] So let's get into that a little bit.

[00:09:36] Cause I'm really curious to hear how that, how that all started.

[00:09:38] So beyond neurodiversity, which is what your topic is about today.

[00:09:44] It's neurodiversity, inclusive HR strategies for 2025.

[00:09:50] So take us back to like, when you first thought about this idea of having, having your own

[00:09:55] business, like when did that all start?

[00:09:57] Oh, good question.

[00:09:59] Um, so probably started, I'd say about two or three years ago, but probably about two.

[00:10:04] Um, I found myself struggling, uh, at work.

[00:10:08] Significantly, which I couldn't understand why I was a high performing student.

[00:10:13] Um, I could do the work.

[00:10:15] I could do the work well.

[00:10:17] And I couldn't understand why I was struggling with basic things like sending emails, like

[00:10:21] follow-up, um, like completing projects all the way.

[00:10:25] And it was embarrassing.

[00:10:27] It was frustrating.

[00:10:29] There was a significant amount of shame going on with it.

[00:10:32] And it wasn't until actually I started working with a therapist kind of just to work some of

[00:10:36] this out and say, why am I struggling so much?

[00:10:39] I, I'm a straight A student.

[00:10:41] I should be able to do any of this.

[00:10:43] Um, and it wasn't until actually that ADHD came into the picture and came into the conversation.

[00:10:49] Uh, we began to have conversations about some of my thought patterns, my brain activity, the

[00:10:54] way that I approached different challenges.

[00:10:56] And it became clearer and clearer that ADHD was probably an answer.

[00:11:00] So I went and I got a diagnosis at age 27.

[00:11:04] So it was surprising to say that I had gone through high school and college successfully.

[00:11:11] And yet I still had ADHD and then was meeting all of these struggles outside of college.

[00:11:16] Um, it kind of baffled the mind a little bit.

[00:11:18] My family was really confused.

[00:11:20] Some of my friends were really confused.

[00:11:22] Some of them had been waiting for me to get there for a while.

[00:11:25] Um, but it wasn't until I got this diagnosis that patterns began to fall into place.

[00:11:31] And I began to understand a little bit more about why I worked the way that I worked and,

[00:11:35] and why I was facing the challenges, but also like why I was so successful in certain areas,

[00:11:41] like big picture thinking, creativity, thriving in chaos, things along those lines.

[00:11:46] Yeah.

[00:11:47] Um, and I worked with a phenomenal female entrepreneur.

[00:11:51] Um, I, I was, um, kind of right-hand woman for a while and I watched her grow a business,

[00:11:59] but I also watched how she handled her team's challenges and individual frustrations.

[00:12:06] And then she had the opportunity, or I should say, I had the opportunity to work with her

[00:12:10] on creating accommodations for myself.

[00:12:13] And I began to go, holy heck, like if I am the, if I'm experiencing this at 27,

[00:12:19] how many other individuals have gone through their lives struggling in the workplace or,

[00:12:24] or worse are getting diagnosed later in life.

[00:12:27] Yeah.

[00:12:28] I began to see that pattern, particularly with young women, my age, who were going in and getting ADHD

[00:12:32] diagnoses.

[00:12:33] Um, some who were coming to me and expressing, I think I have autism.

[00:12:38] I I'm going through this process help.

[00:12:40] I don't know where to go.

[00:12:41] You've already been through this process.

[00:12:43] And I was shocked at how much we had failed people, young people, particularly young women.

[00:12:50] Um, and I began to just start to say like, I'm so passionate about this.

[00:12:55] I've been in these shoes.

[00:12:56] I understand what it's like to struggle at work, to feel like a failure, to constantly

[00:13:01] try to hide the, the inconsistencies that, you know, are part of just ADHD or autism or dyslexia.

[00:13:10] Um, I think this is where I need to go.

[00:13:13] Um, and things just kind of naturally aligned the doors open for the opportunity to, to step

[00:13:19] out onto an entrepreneurial platform.

[00:13:22] And, um, I had the blessing and the, um, the love of my previous team who kind of encouraged

[00:13:28] me to step out and do this.

[00:13:30] And lo and behold, here I am.

[00:13:31] Yeah.

[00:13:33] Well, I mean, I think it's amazing people taking risks that they really for, for some

[00:13:39] time aren't ready to, to take that leap and, and take on a risk like that.

[00:13:44] But no, I mean, I just applaud you for doing it and, and you just don't know where it'll

[00:13:49] lead you.

[00:13:50] And same with things that, that I've been doing like this podcast and other things that we've

[00:13:55] talked about in my personal life, just things that really are stepping out of your comfort

[00:13:59] zone and taking a risk, you know, what's the worst that can happen.

[00:14:02] And if you're okay with that, then why not?

[00:14:05] So what, uh, what, what have been maybe some of the biggest challenges or surprises so far,

[00:14:12] since you've been doing this all.

[00:14:15] The challenges is just learning how to run a business, right?

[00:14:18] Just, just not having somebody next to you to kind of gut check you or to say like, yes,

[00:14:23] this is the direction you need to go.

[00:14:25] You should attend this webinar.

[00:14:27] You should engage with these people.

[00:14:28] So that's been a challenge, but I think some of the surprises has, um, have been the reception

[00:14:34] that I've gotten from individuals.

[00:14:37] I've done a lot of public speaking recently and in almost every engagement that I've had,

[00:14:42] I have one or two people come up to me, um, often in tears saying, finally, somebody gets

[00:14:48] it.

[00:14:48] Like, I thought you were speaking to me the whole time.

[00:14:50] I thought you had told my story and, um, I'm gonna like, not gonna get emotional on,

[00:14:56] on a podcast at 2 PM on a Monday.

[00:14:58] But, um, it's been, it's been really touching and it's been really amazing.

[00:15:03] And it's, it's really resonated deeply, I think with audiences and, and with myself.

[00:15:08] And, um, it just shows, it goes to show that, you know, there's, there's so much more

[00:15:13] going on behind what you see a person presenting at work or in their personal life.

[00:15:18] Um, and it's been, it's been really touching.

[00:15:21] It's been really amazing.

[00:15:22] Yeah, no, that's, that's amazing.

[00:15:24] And I, I'm sure you're going to continue to have those people come up to you after and

[00:15:29] just tell you how they, how they have connected with you and that it sounds like you understand

[00:15:34] them without even knowing them.

[00:15:36] And so that's awesome.

[00:15:38] Uh, so can you start kind of explaining, you know, what neurodiversity is and why it's

[00:15:44] important to the workplace that we all are in now?

[00:15:47] Yeah.

[00:15:48] So neurodiversity is an all encompassing term.

[00:15:50] Neurodiversity is the unique way that we all think process information, understand the

[00:15:57] world around us, right?

[00:15:58] It's, it really encompasses all of us the same way that the general term diversity or racial

[00:16:02] diversity encompasses all races.

[00:16:04] Neurodiversity encompasses all of us.

[00:16:06] But when you think about the term neurodivergent or neurodivergence, it describes a person's

[00:16:13] unique and innate neurological differences.

[00:16:16] So it's just, the brain is wired differently and their activities and their patterns are

[00:16:21] wired in a way to try to survive the world around them or, or meet the challenges that

[00:16:25] they have, but they differ from society's norms.

[00:16:29] So, um, it depends on who you talk to.

[00:16:32] For some people, there is like a clear line.

[00:16:34] You're either neurodivergent or you're not for others.

[00:16:37] It's more difficult and nebulous because we're basing it on society's norms, which I mean,

[00:16:43] who is really normal?

[00:16:46] That's a whole other podcast.

[00:16:47] Um, but it's, it's really important to the workforce workforce because we need diversity

[00:16:55] in, in so many areas.

[00:16:56] We need diversity of thought.

[00:16:58] We need diversity of ability.

[00:16:59] We need diversity of experience.

[00:17:01] This diversity allows organizations to be innovative, to drive change, to be on the cutting

[00:17:08] edge of their industries.

[00:17:09] But honestly, to me, diversity, this diversity is about creating a sense of inclusion and belonging.

[00:17:17] So it's estimated by the CDC that almost 80% of autistic individuals are either underemployed

[00:17:22] or not employed at all.

[00:17:24] And that's just autistic individuals.

[00:17:27] That's not individuals with ADHD, with dyslexia or any other diagnoses.

[00:17:32] Um, so just think about your quality of life when you know, you can do the job, you want

[00:17:38] to do the job, but you're not embraced in the same way that your neurotypical or like your

[00:17:43] quote unquote heavy quotes here, normal employees or colleagues are just because you present

[00:17:49] differently.

[00:17:49] So to me, neurodiversity is important because it embraces and celebrates all ways of thinking

[00:17:55] and processing.

[00:17:56] And it's, it's a movement that's just beginning to be embraced and it's really exciting.

[00:18:01] Yeah.

[00:18:02] So what are some common misconceptions about neurodivergent individuals in the professional

[00:18:07] setting?

[00:18:10] Oh, there's a lot of them, but I think the biggest misconception is that they're not capable,

[00:18:18] which is often far from the truth.

[00:18:20] Um, neurodivergent individuals are, are significantly more capable to meet the demands of a job than

[00:18:25] I think we think.

[00:18:26] It just requires some flexibility or some accommodations.

[00:18:30] Um, so imagine a person with autism, for example, say that this person, um, doesn't make eye

[00:18:38] contact, you know, they're, they're going to be looking over in this direction, or maybe

[00:18:41] they don't have the firmest of handshakes.

[00:18:43] Um, and they're not, they don't have the, um, they don't have the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the

[00:18:44] So that's a lot of the social constructs that we're going to judge this person on in

[00:18:49] an interview or a networking experience.

[00:18:51] Often they don't have anything to do with the job itself.

[00:18:54] Yeah.

[00:18:55] So why are we eliminating or judging a person based on them?

[00:18:59] Um, ultimately when the opportunity presents itself, neurodivergent individuals, if they're

[00:19:05] allowed to play to their strengths are some of the highest performers that you're going

[00:19:09] to see.

[00:19:09] Um, and they're phenomenally bright and engaging and they're beautiful people just like we

[00:19:14] all are.

[00:19:15] They just express it a little differently or, or have different layers to, to navigate

[00:19:19] first.

[00:19:20] Yeah.

[00:19:21] Yeah.

[00:19:22] What does an inclusive HR strategy for neurodiversity look like in, in your, you know, in your words?

[00:19:33] In my words, um, so many options.

[00:19:39] Um, I think if you had to encompass it, it would be strategies based on compassion and accessibility.

[00:19:46] So like, for example, take the accommodation process is the process published and available

[00:19:53] for everyone in the organization.

[00:19:55] Um, have a necessary barriers been removed from that process?

[00:20:00] Is it a process that actually feels, um, accessible?

[00:20:04] I don't mean in the way that like they're published, but that you're not going to be looked down upon

[00:20:09] or shamed or made to feel uncomfortable because you express that you need an accommodation.

[00:20:13] Um, when I got my diagnosis, one of the coolest experiences was going to my boss and being able

[00:20:20] to say, Hey, I figured it out.

[00:20:23] Kind of.

[00:20:23] I've got ADHD.

[00:20:25] What do I do now?

[00:20:26] And it was not this, oh gosh, darn it.

[00:20:30] We've got, you know, we've got to follow by the book.

[00:20:33] We've got all of these processes.

[00:20:34] It was this wonderful, engaging process of so happy that you figured something out.

[00:20:40] Let's talk about ways to make your life a little bit easier.

[00:20:43] And it wasn't this intimidating process.

[00:20:46] Um, so I saw my boss approach the process with compassion and a willingness to understand.

[00:20:52] And I think that approach is the inclusive HR strategy.

[00:20:56] Um, another one might be based on flexibility if I can add to that.

[00:21:02] So many neurodivergent individuals, they might struggle with sensory or environmental struggles.

[00:21:07] It might make going to the office feel like a living hell, um, even on a good day.

[00:21:12] So does your organization offer flexibility in the way?

[00:21:17] Like, can you move around?

[00:21:18] Can you find a quiet space during the day?

[00:21:20] Does the person have the ability to, to work from home?

[00:21:24] Does the organization ultimately offer and encourage?

[00:21:28] Encourage.

[00:21:29] That's the key part.

[00:21:30] Encourage the person to do what they need to do to focus on their work, to be the most

[00:21:34] productive, to be their best self, to bring their best self to work rather than forcing

[00:21:39] them in a box and making sure that they need a norm and struggling to do their best work.

[00:21:45] And that's where I think a lot of companies still don't get it, unfortunately.

[00:21:50] And so they might lose good people because they don't have that figured out for their workforce.

[00:21:55] And if they're not allowing them that opportunity, it's going to cause frustration on the, on the

[00:22:03] employee that just is not getting what they feel like is needed in that situation.

[00:22:10] Like you said, what, whatever makes them most productive can get their job done.

[00:22:15] And a lot of people are telling their staff, like, Hey, you gotta be in the office.

[00:22:20] You gotta be in the office.

[00:22:20] I get it depending on the industry and what the company does for, for services.

[00:22:25] It really is important to be in person and be able to do it that way.

[00:22:30] But there's a lot of companies still doing things the way they were doing in the pandemic

[00:22:35] and everyone's working from home or kind of a flex schedule.

[00:22:38] So it really just comes down to what is going to make the staff the most productive

[00:22:44] and what opportunities and how flexible they can be with those situations.

[00:22:49] So yeah.

[00:22:50] And more often than not, you're going to see that those changes, those accommodations,

[00:22:55] they cost nothing.

[00:22:57] It just costs a little bit of time and understanding.

[00:22:59] Right.

[00:23:00] If you're going to see any kind of accommodation cost, it's easily under $500, easily under $300.

[00:23:07] Most of them are probably going to cost $50.

[00:23:10] They're going to be a pair of noise canceling headphones or, or something simple that can

[00:23:15] be easily implemented.

[00:23:16] So the cost shouldn't be prohibitive.

[00:23:19] Yeah.

[00:23:19] So let's get into hiring practices a little bit.

[00:23:22] Cause I think one thing that'll still be a challenge in 2025 is recruiting,

[00:23:27] finding a talent.

[00:23:28] And so what adjustments can a company make from the recruiting process to really attract support

[00:23:37] neurodivergent candidates?

[00:23:38] Absolutely.

[00:23:40] There are a ton of, of changes that can be made.

[00:23:43] Um, the first is making sure that your process in itself is, is accessible and understandable.

[00:23:50] So are you asking upfront, does the applicant need any accommodations?

[00:23:55] Are you making sure that that is part of the, the conversation from the beginning?

[00:23:59] Um, for example, I I'm working with a phenomenal client of mine, um, who happens to be autistic

[00:24:05] and we're going through the job search process and I'm beginning to see, oh my gosh,

[00:24:12] this is, aren't really built to support him.

[00:24:14] They're not giving him the opportunity to really shine because they're putting him in those

[00:24:19] boxes or they're not making the application process acceptable or accessible and engaging.

[00:24:26] Um, I think of, I'm like going through the employee application process in my mind, right?

[00:24:31] Is the application page super flashy and over the top or, you know, bright colors too much going on.

[00:24:39] And sometimes those pages need to be as boiled down as possible.

[00:24:42] You can engage them in different ways, but making that page understandable, accessible,

[00:24:48] because they're taking in a lot of information.

[00:24:50] Yeah.

[00:24:51] Um, when you think about the job description, are you reviewing your job descriptions regularly

[00:24:56] to make sure that you're focusing on only what's absolutely necessary for the role?

[00:25:01] I like to use the, the example of a, of a driver's license.

[00:25:05] So I know that's not applicable for every role, right?

[00:25:08] But say that you put, you need to have a driver's license because you want to make sure that the

[00:25:12] person has reliable transportation or can get to work on time.

[00:25:16] Well, what if that person maybe has significant anxiety or can't drive or has to rely on public

[00:25:23] transportation?

[00:25:25] Well, in reality, can that job just be worked from home?

[00:25:28] Or what if that person has a caregiver that can get them to work on a regular basis?

[00:25:33] But because of like a, um, a thing called all or nothing thinking or black and white thinking,

[00:25:38] right? That inability to see the gray, somebody might self-select out of that process and eliminate

[00:25:44] themselves when in reality, their talent was the perfect fit.

[00:25:47] Right.

[00:25:47] And they really could have been a great fit for the organization if there had been flexibility.

[00:25:52] Yeah.

[00:25:52] When you think of the interview process, are you providing questions in advance or offering

[00:25:58] that option?

[00:25:59] Just offering that option as, as an accessibility, um, piece.

[00:26:04] Are your interviewers trained to understand the science of neurodivergence or if anything,

[00:26:09] just to recognize their own preference for neurotypical social patterns, right?

[00:26:15] A firm handshake, eye contact, quick, concise answers.

[00:26:19] You know, those may not necessarily come when you're working with a neurodivergent individual.

[00:26:24] So it's important that you're allowing candidates time to, to process, to break down complex

[00:26:30] questions, allowing them to even move about during the interview, kind of to process excess,

[00:26:35] um, anxious energy.

[00:26:37] Um, I could go on, but those are the first, those are just some of the, the changes or accommodations

[00:26:44] that can be made to the recruitment process when it comes to hiring individuals.

[00:26:48] Okay.

[00:26:48] So how can an organization evaluate candidates fairly, you know, without relying on the

[00:26:54] traditional interview techniques that, that may disadvantage the neurodivergent individuals?

[00:27:00] Yeah.

[00:27:02] So it goes back to, um, kind of discarding those neurotypical expectations.

[00:27:07] It might be allowing, um, for fidget toys or tools to be on the table, to allow somebody

[00:27:12] to process energy, to allow them to move around.

[00:27:16] Um, but I also like to suggest unbiased tools like disc or CliftonStrengths finders.

[00:27:23] Um, I know these tools aren't necessarily geared towards making a decision per se.

[00:27:28] And, you know, it depends on how people like to use them in the interview process, but they

[00:27:33] do allow you to understand how a person works, their strengths, how they communicate, right?

[00:27:39] It allows you to understand way, where they might need support and it eliminates a lot of

[00:27:45] kind of that social guesswork that comes, I think with an interview.

[00:27:48] So that is one way of really getting to the heart of a candidate or trying to understand

[00:27:53] how they're going to fit into a team without relying on those traditional interview techniques,

[00:27:58] right?

[00:27:58] It's unbiased.

[00:27:59] CliftonStrengths doesn't care if the person made eye contact during the assessment or if

[00:28:03] they, you know, were concise in their answers.

[00:28:06] They're more focused on the immediate data.

[00:28:10] What about, so I have used those kinds of assessments and, and some of them, I think are

[00:28:18] really accurate.

[00:28:20] Unfortunately, it is a cost associated with some of those.

[00:28:23] So, you know, when you're a smaller business and you just don't have the budget to have

[00:28:29] some kind of assessment tool as part of the interview process, you know, is there, is

[00:28:34] there something that's out there that might give a little bit of a baseline with, with a

[00:28:39] similar kind of assessment that's, you know, not as much of a cost associated with them?

[00:28:45] Have you found any?

[00:28:47] You could do Myers-Briggs or Enneagram.

[00:28:50] Yeah.

[00:28:50] You know, some of those easier online assessments, not as scientific, not as quick with the data,

[00:28:54] but those are kind of the first ones that come to mind.

[00:28:58] Yeah.

[00:28:58] So I think in that case, if you're working on a smaller budget, it is really looking at

[00:29:02] yourself and looking at your expectations.

[00:29:04] Yep.

[00:29:06] And looking at even the questions that you're asking to make sure that you're really understanding

[00:29:13] what do you really need out of this role?

[00:29:15] What do you really need out of this candidate versus what are the nice to haves or the neurotypical

[00:29:20] expectations?

[00:29:21] Right.

[00:29:22] So I have Sammy Kelly.

[00:29:24] She is the founder of Beyond Neurodiversity with me today.

[00:29:27] And this topic, as we've talked, you know, it's, it's one that I feel like we're going

[00:29:33] to hear more and more about in the future.

[00:29:35] And with, with my background, not necessarily handling diversity as a, as a full-time position,

[00:29:43] I have been on various work groups and committees about diversity and inclusion with the environment

[00:29:49] that we were in.

[00:29:50] So from a training development standpoint, you know, with, with neurodiversity, what role

[00:29:57] does training play in fostering a neurodiverse friendly culture?

[00:30:02] You know, and how can HR professionals really lead the way in that?

[00:30:06] Good question.

[00:30:08] So training is incredibly important when it comes to that neurodiverse friendly culture.

[00:30:13] I think first of all, it's just like basic education.

[00:30:16] It's, it's conducting an introductory training on what neurodiversity is, what it looks, what

[00:30:21] it feels like, as well as the challenges and successes that come along with it.

[00:30:26] That can be incredibly beneficial when it comes to setting the tone and introducing a neuro-inclusive

[00:30:31] environment.

[00:30:32] I think you would be really surprised, like I often am on, on how many individuals in the

[00:30:39] audience are, can raise their hand and say that they've been touched by neurodiversity in

[00:30:43] some way.

[00:30:44] Sometimes it's, it's their own story.

[00:30:46] Sometimes it's their sibling, their cousin, their niece, their nephew, their, their grandfather

[00:30:52] who was just never diagnosed.

[00:30:53] But now that they learn more about neurodiversity, they're kind of like ticking some boxes.

[00:30:58] Right.

[00:30:59] Um, that training I think is wonderful when it comes to level setting and HR professionals can

[00:31:05] lead the way by educating themselves first and foremost, and making sure that they're leading

[00:31:10] with professionalism and compassion and understanding really with any individual, but especially the

[00:31:18] neurodivergent ones.

[00:31:19] Um, and they can connect with the neurodivergent community through organizations like Chad, um,

[00:31:25] which of course, just when I need it, I'm not going to remember what the acronym stands for,

[00:31:30] but it's C H A D D. Um, it, you can work with providers, mental health professionals and others

[00:31:37] to make sure the supports and the trainings that they're delivering are neuro inclusive and friendly,

[00:31:43] or better yet, I'm going to put a plug, you know, call those providers and ask them to come in and provide

[00:31:49] that kind of training.

[00:31:50] Um, because you know, they can speak to the lived experience.

[00:31:54] They can speak to the professionalism and they can also speak to hate.

[00:31:58] You know, I've been on both sides of this, at least in my case, I can say I've been on both

[00:32:01] sides and, and be able to communicate that experience.

[00:32:05] Yeah.

[00:32:06] So what about managers?

[00:32:07] So a lot of people are in a manager role, maybe not equipped with as much background and

[00:32:15] experience as others in a managerial role.

[00:32:18] They might've been put into that because they were doing really well and then they got promoted.

[00:32:23] And now what?

[00:32:24] So how can manage, how can managers be better equipped to support the neurodivergent employees

[00:32:31] on their team?

[00:32:33] Sure.

[00:32:34] So this is kind of an interesting question.

[00:32:35] Um, because there's a phrase, if you've met one neurodivergent person, you've met one neurodivergent

[00:32:42] person, like you've just met one, congratulations.

[00:32:44] You've only had one experience.

[00:32:46] Um, so no one's person's needs or challenges are necessarily the same.

[00:32:52] Um, and so it's really difficult to kind of lay down like a blanket advisory.

[00:32:56] Like, Hey, if you're working with this kind of person, you need X, Y, and Z.

[00:33:00] And I do think that if I had to give general guidance here, I would make sure to say, or I would

[00:33:07] rather say, make sure to operate with compassion, with understanding and with patience.

[00:33:15] Um, allow somebody the time and the space to articulate their challenges and best of all,

[00:33:21] you know, believe them when they come to you.

[00:33:24] I think we've all heard of the bad apples who will use one thing or another in, in some cases

[00:33:29] to kind of, you know, get special accommodations or supports or anything.

[00:33:35] But more often than not, those individuals who are coming to you with challenges are intrinsically

[00:33:41] struggling with something and really do need the support.

[00:33:44] Um, it requires such an individualistic approach from managers, but it's really getting to know

[00:33:51] your employee, getting to know their patterns, keeping an eye out for them.

[00:33:54] Um, I think it's really important for managers to, to work with individuals who have the lived experience,

[00:34:05] who can then help them have the right language to, um, cage for them.

[00:34:13] It'd be one thing if my boss had gone to everybody and said, Hey, Sammy really struggles with detail orientation.

[00:34:19] Just don't even bother.

[00:34:21] But instead she was really focused about pairing me with detail oriented individuals, making sure that the support was there and, and giving me guidance and checking in with me often and making sure that she was staying on top of those patterns.

[00:34:35] So, um, that's a very long winded answer, but I think.

[00:34:39] No, that was, that was really good.

[00:34:41] So hopefully managers will take that and kind of evaluate how they are handling things right now.

[00:34:48] And maybe figure out potentially some, some different tactics to it.

[00:34:53] Um, which when, when, when you talked about workplace accommodations and things that people might be asking about as a manager or someone that has to be a part of that situation,

[00:35:06] when it comes to making a decision about that, you know, what are some practical accommodations that employers should consider, you know, when they are in that situation of somebody that's neurodivergent on their team?

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:21] Yeah.

[00:35:22] Um, there's a whole long list, my gosh, but the, the ones that kind of come to my mind initially are things when you think of like the environment, um, noise canceling headphones, uh, a quiet space, or, um, the ability to, to work from home when, when possible.

[00:35:41] Right.

[00:35:41] I, like you said earlier, I get that it's main, it may not be a possibility for everybody, but that kind of flexibility can be really important as long as they're still delivering.

[00:35:50] And that's the goal, right.

[00:35:52] And that's the goal, right.

[00:35:52] Is that these accommodations allow them to deliver and to be at their best and to function in a way that's not causing them undue stress or harm.

[00:36:00] Um, flexible working schedules I found can be actually really beneficial.

[00:36:05] So, um, just the ability to say, Hey, I know I'm going to log in on in the morning, but if it's eight or eight 15, it doesn't matter because I'll work until five or five 15 to make it up.

[00:36:16] But just the ability to kind of ebb and flow.

[00:36:18] Um, one thing that I've learned or noticed with neurodivergent individuals, and this might be true for everybody, but I know from my experience, right.

[00:36:27] Um, my energy is tied to my emotions.

[00:36:29] So when I have really high energy, I have also really high anxiety.

[00:36:33] I also have like, you know, woohoo, great times.

[00:36:36] But when I have lower energy, I'm probably more prone to depressive actions or, um, slower energy with a slower morning, the ability to work at eight 15 and just give myself a little bit of grace, really beneficial.

[00:36:51] Um, you can think of other accommodations like.

[00:36:56] Advanced notice for meetings.

[00:36:59] Sometimes, um, neurodivergent individuals can really struggle with change or sudden, um, sudden changes throughout the day.

[00:37:06] And, um, things like providing agendas in advance or, or written communication, like the little things that make such a big difference in somebody's day.

[00:37:17] You might think like, okay, I have to follow up with a written communication or I have to follow up with an email.

[00:37:21] It takes five minutes out of your day, but the, the emotional and mental impact on that person further on down the line is exponential.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:32] And so these accommodations are really easy, but, um, you know, they just take a little bit of time, a little bit of love.

[00:37:38] Yeah.

[00:37:39] So walk us through just a prime example, just so people, if they come across something similar, maybe have a better approach and mindset with it.

[00:37:53] So if, if someone on your team comes to you and says, Hey, I need this accommodation.

[00:38:02] I have this situation that, you know, I have documentation from my doctor or something that shows that they're not just making it up.

[00:38:11] Cause I feel like some companies and some managers might just feel like people make things up because they want to get out of their work and they don't want to work as hard or they don't want to be in the office.

[00:38:22] And they want to make, you know, a big stink about like the lighting or the, you know, air conditioner making noise or something.

[00:38:29] So, you know, what, what would be like an example of that?

[00:38:35] Is it, um, you know, is there one or two like accommodations that you feel like a lot of people will have to address at some point?

[00:38:45] You know, so are there like kind of categories of things that really people will potentially at some point in the future have to address?

[00:38:54] I think environment is probably one that's, that's really where I see, or I hear a lot of the needs for accommodation.

[00:39:05] I think in part, right, we got used to working from home and, and got used to creating an environment that was safe for us.

[00:39:13] I think that's actually a really key word is safety.

[00:39:15] Yeah.

[00:39:16] Um, I remember coming back to the office and through no fault of the team, right.

[00:39:21] Just struggling with my own feeling of safety and my own feeling of like, I had created an environment.

[00:39:26] I had everything down and now I have to, you know, hear this person's conversation or I have to smell this person's lunch or, you know, things that weren't necessarily anybody's fault, but just, I was in the environment that I couldn't control anymore.

[00:39:40] So that's where the things like noise canceling headphones, um, the ability to move around to, I, I will forever and a day, uh, champion the ability to find an office and close the door and to work in that kind of space.

[00:39:54] I know that people may feel like, well, that limits collaboration or creativity.

[00:39:59] Creativity.

[00:39:59] Well, if you want collaboration, you can still knock on the door.

[00:40:03] Um, creativity is often great when you're sometimes by yourself and you don't have any distractions.

[00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:10] Um, if you're looking for accessibility, they're still right there.

[00:40:14] It's just maybe that they're getting work done.

[00:40:17] Like you wanted them to.

[00:40:19] Yeah.

[00:40:19] So it's kind of a little turnaround there, but I see environments probably being some of the most accommodation or the, the area of most accommodations to start.

[00:40:29] Okay.

[00:40:30] Yeah.

[00:40:31] So what, what can HR and leadership teams collaborate on to ensure that, you know, neurodiversity is prioritized in their DEI initiatives?

[00:40:43] Hmm.

[00:40:44] Hmm.

[00:40:45] I think that's a really good question.

[00:40:48] And this is one that I kind of struggle with.

[00:40:52] I think maybe taking a look at management and training managers, I think leadership is going to be ultimately more successful.

[00:41:03] The more that they understand how to support and how to, um, really connect with employees, the more that they learn that one, one approach isn't necessarily one fits all.

[00:41:13] Um, and so that ability to introduce managers and leadership teams to unique perspectives, unique challenges, unique successes as well.

[00:41:22] And that collaboration, I think in terms of just training managers and supporting them will be really, um, would be if.

[00:41:36] Yeah.

[00:41:37] Yeah.

[00:41:38] Yeah.

[00:41:38] Yeah.

[00:41:38] That, I think a lot of people, you know, in, in a managerial role may not understand how important it is in the time that they're asked to be in training, but in the long run, it's, it's super important to train managers enough because a lot of people leave managers.

[00:42:00] They don't leave the company and they're avoided in situations that managers just are not trained well enough.

[00:42:08] So, um, so how about some success stories in your experience so far, Sammy, with, with your, um, understanding of what you've seen with this, you know, can you share some examples of organizations that are excelling in this?

[00:42:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:35] Um, I know that Microsoft has completely reinvented some of their hiring processes, especially for neurodiverse individuals.

[00:42:42] And they've seen an uptick in hiring and quality of candidates there.

[00:42:46] Um, take a look at SAP.

[00:42:49] Um, they actually integrated an autism at work program back in 2012.

[00:42:53] Um, and it opened the doors for an influx of talent and candidates, which I think is actually a key that we don't talk about enough.

[00:43:02] Embracing neurodiversity at work means that you're accessing, you're accessing talent that hasn't been welcomed yet.

[00:43:10] That hasn't been able to shine and, um, to have that success.

[00:43:15] So in a tough labor market and you're looking for talent, why not take the steps to be a little bit more, um, inclusive because you're going to find that talent.

[00:43:25] Sorry.

[00:43:26] Anyway, that tangent, um, talking about SAP though.

[00:43:29] So that opened the doors for better talent for their organization.

[00:43:34] They had applicants with high level degrees, um, even dual degrees.

[00:43:39] Some had patents under their belt that they were able to bring to bear for the organization.

[00:43:44] And they saw an increase in productivity and employee engagement, quality, overall satisfaction in the organization.

[00:43:53] But better yet, and this is one of the pieces that kind of lines up with what we were talking about.

[00:43:58] They saw better quality relationships with their managers and their team members, ultimately leading to even more greater employee satisfaction.

[00:44:07] Um, and it was once managers knew how to have a neuro-inclusive approach and knew how to take that individualized approach.

[00:44:15] But one manager even reported that it had made them a better manager without a doubt.

[00:44:20] Right.

[00:44:20] And so they saw satisfaction on both parties part.

[00:44:23] Um, in addition, if you take a look at HP enterprises, so they placed 30 individuals at, um, Australia's department of human services.

[00:44:33] And they saw a 30% increase in, uh, productivity and quality as a result.

[00:44:41] Right.

[00:44:41] This is wild.

[00:44:42] Like you're looking at it going, well, then why are we not embracing this?

[00:44:45] If you're looking for ROI, if you're looking for bottom line, if you're looking for data, these are great examples.

[00:44:51] But so they saw the 30% increase, right?

[00:44:54] Which was fantastic.

[00:44:55] Um, but better yet, these individuals were actually able to pick up on patterns and behavioral issues with clients ahead of time that were causing delays and major crises and delayed launches.

[00:45:07] So as a result, they completely redesigned the process, saving thousands of dollars and saving frustration on both parties part.

[00:45:15] Yeah.

[00:45:16] So these are just, I mean, yes, they're large organizations, but they made really simple changes that any organization could make just with a little bit of training, a little bit of patience and compassion and look at the results that they had.

[00:45:29] Yeah.

[00:45:31] Huh.

[00:45:31] So just, I'm really passionate about it.

[00:45:33] I, I'm sure you can tell.

[00:45:35] Yeah.

[00:45:36] It's awesome.

[00:45:37] I mean, I love it.

[00:45:37] It's, uh, it's really something that I, I think a lot of companies just don't even take the time to recognize and focus because either it hasn't been an issue.

[00:45:51] It hasn't been a priority, whatever it is, or if they're just kind of trying to navigate really through the year and figure out how they can sustain itself as a business.

[00:46:02] So, you know, again, it's, it's really making the effort and making it a priority that I think as you continue to educate people on the topic and, and really what the philosophy is behind it, I think is going to really help just educate people and make them more aware of what, what they should be focusing on in this topic and how they can help their team.

[00:46:24] Whether it's not an issue now, it might be in the future.

[00:46:27] So I think it's, I think it's fascinating.

[00:46:29] Um, so looking ahead into the future, you know, what are some of your predictions on how neurodiversity and inclusion for HR strategies will really evolve in 2025 and beyond?

[00:46:43] I think you're beginning to see, um, a pattern that we're seeing over in the UK, which is this swell of individuals realizing, Hey, I'm autistic.

[00:46:53] Hey, I have ADHD.

[00:46:55] Um, you might see an increase in dyslexia.

[00:46:59] That's more often diagnosed earlier because it's caught in school.

[00:47:02] Um, and more often than not, by the time that individuals get to adulthood, they've pretty much figured out like how to work with it.

[00:47:09] Um, but in the UK, right, we're seeing these swells of, of, of diagnoses and people coming to understand, um, themselves a little bit better.

[00:47:18] And as we see that pattern in the U S I think you're going to see an uptick in, um, neurodiverse ERGs.

[00:47:25] Um, people who are willing to have the conversation, who are willing to use the phrases ADHD and autism, like not like they're bad, terrible words any longer, but more willing to have the conversation.

[00:47:39] Um, I'm hoping, um, I'm hoping this is my hope against hope, right?

[00:47:42] Because I recognize that many organizations are grappling with the future of their DEI initiatives.

[00:47:48] And I'm hoping that organizations will look at this as, um, an integral part of their strategy of their, their employee wellbeing strategy of just their overall success and innovation.

[00:48:05] Um, it's, it's a unique slipper of, of DEI in a way.

[00:48:11] Um, I'm just hoping that people, um, because so many people are touched by it, begin to understand and embrace it and are willing to have the conversation.

[00:48:21] Um, it brings us closer together than it drives us further apart.

[00:48:25] Yeah.

[00:48:26] Yeah.

[00:48:27] And just, if you look at the generations in the workplace now, and I've seen people talk about reverse mentoring, ageism, things that 10 years ago we didn't really talk about.

[00:48:40] And now we're talking about just a lot of different things that companies are happening to face and technology changing and AI and, and just how work is done and how you can be more productive with technology and not take away jobs.

[00:48:56] I know it's going to take away jobs, but.

[00:48:58] You know, for sure.

[00:49:00] Yeah.

[00:49:01] I mean, maybe not to the extent that people think, but this workforce entering, you know, coming out of school into the workforce, the younger generation, the people, you know, in their twenties, the, the, the statistics of the people that you're talking about, I think are, are way higher than the ones that are 40, 50 years old.

[00:49:25] Because it just like a lot of other things, it wasn't, wasn't happening.

[00:49:30] It wasn't normal.

[00:49:31] And it, you know, and, and I grew up, I was diagnosed with dyslexia back in grade school.

[00:49:36] So like, I, I went through that.

[00:49:38] I went through a lot of different tutoring.

[00:49:41] I went through having, you know, somewhat of an, uh, program, some kind of accommodation for myself within high school and college even.

[00:49:50] So like, I, I had that as part of my personal experience growing up and not that I was singled out with all of my friends.

[00:49:59] Like people knew I had dyslexia, like it wasn't, it wasn't a big deal, but they knew I had extended time on tests and, you know, was able to do a few things that they didn't.

[00:50:08] And, and, you know, it, it, it helped me through some of the, you know, classes, especially in college that I really struggled in.

[00:50:17] I mean, it was just where I was and, and obviously now working and being in the workforce for the time I've been, it's, I've figured out how I can be successful and productive in jobs.

[00:50:28] But there are some people that really are struggling and they just may not know exactly how to be more productive.

[00:50:36] So that's why the stuff that you're doing, I think is just super and powerful and impactful to companies that are trying to really get ahead of certain situations that they might face.

[00:50:47] So.

[00:50:47] Thank you.

[00:50:48] You're going to see, you're only going to see the conversation continue.

[00:50:51] I think there's this statistic where it's estimated that 40% of the nerve of, of Gen Z identify as neurodiverse in some way, shape or form.

[00:51:01] That might be actually more reflective of what our world really looks like, but you're seeing this conversation from a generation that is so bold and bright and eager to be very transparent about their challenges and their successes.

[00:51:14] Um, if you want to be able to capture that talent, you're going to need to be able to talk the talk, walk the walk and understand the movement.

[00:51:24] Absolutely.

[00:51:25] Well, if anyone wants to connect with Sammy, just to kind of learn more about her work at beyond neurodiversity, you can scan the QR code for the website, which is, um, just click it on myself and just pull it up and make sure it's going to work.

[00:51:45] Yep.

[00:51:46] Beyond ND.com.

[00:51:47] So if anyone is watching that cannot see the QR code, if this is on demand and you're listening, it's beyond B E Y O N D and D.com beyond neurodiversity.

[00:52:00] So you can contact Sammy there and learn more about what she is focused on with this new venture of her career.

[00:52:07] And, uh, just super excited for, for you.

[00:52:11] And, and I'm, I'm sure you're going to continue to, like you said before, have people come up after your presentations and, and different crowds that you're going to be talking to and just hearing their success stories with it.

[00:52:24] And, and really just connecting people that, that really feel like they can connect with you on, on this level.

[00:52:31] So very, very excited for you, Sammy.

[00:52:34] And I, I'm glad you were able to come on this year and, uh, be one of my last few episodes of the year, which I've got one more next week.

[00:52:42] Uh, after that, we're going into next year and got a whole lot of other topics to get to with guests.

[00:52:48] So hopefully you can come back on and give us an update on everything you're doing and, um, looking forward to staying connected.

[00:52:56] So appreciate you coming on and talking about all this.

[00:52:59] Thank you for having me.

[00:53:00] It's been a treat.

[00:53:01] I'm, I'm just so happy to be here and I really appreciate the time.

[00:53:05] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:53:06] Well, I hope you have a great holiday and it's going to go by fast.

[00:53:10] So try to try to enjoy the next few weeks as we head into next year and, uh, happy holidays.

[00:53:16] And we'll talk to you real soon, Sammy.

[00:53:18] Sounds good.

[00:53:19] Thanks David.

[00:53:19] All right.

[00:53:20] See you later.

[00:53:21] Bye bye.