Shiran Danoch, PhD | Laszlo Block, Time Block, and Chutzpah

[00:00:23] Hello all, my name is Andrew Gadomski and welcome to the Reciprocity podcast. We're in season one and I'm here to welcome Shiran Danoch, one of the leaders who will be featured during this season where we explore how people give and get in regards to leadership and enable others.

[00:00:44] The premise of the show is not to feature any particular function or industry, but really just talk with people who've had experiences in their occupation and understand more about how they enable those around them and how they learn from others around them.

[00:01:00] So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Shiran and have her talk a little bit about herself and give her elevator story.

[00:01:10] Great. Thanks, Andrew. I'm very excited to be here.

[00:01:14] So I'm Shiran. I'm a mother of two energetic boys. I'm married to a SAP. I'm an organizational psychologist dedicated to making work better with data.

[00:01:27] And I'm the CEO and founder of Informed Decisions Interview Intelligence. I'm based in Israel.

[00:01:34] I'm an expert in helping organizations make people decisions in an accurate, efficient, and fair way, specifically within the hiring domain.

[00:01:46] That's fantastic. And it's always exciting having an IO to talk to. I've got a number I work with, and there's a different set of perspectives because they're working with leaders.

[00:02:00] And I imagine that you would see this, but they're working with leaders and talking about topics around human behavior and knowledge skills and tasks.

[00:02:09] They tend to not program themselves that way. They think about what activities do people need to do?

[00:02:16] And at the same time, they sometimes leave those other categories out. Do you find that?

[00:02:24] Yeah, definitely. Because I work with a very structured approach, and so there's a lot of other IOs that's how we're educated to work, right?

[00:02:35] So definitely, you can see that in many conversations, people are taking, just referring to some of the concepts, but not all of the concepts.

[00:02:48] So don't have a really holistic view of a person's job.

[00:02:52] And our role as organizational psychologists is to break that down into the tasks, skills, etc., like you've just described.

[00:03:02] So our first topic is about leadership. Can you talk about a trait or a technique that you've learned about from someone else and how you've executed for success?

[00:03:20] For sure. I think a key learning of mine from a previous co-founder in my previous startup was about audacity, or as we call it in Hebrew, we call it chutzpah, which is basically putting yourself out there.

[00:03:36] I'm a very polite person. I was also a nerdy girl. Everything is always within a framework, and I'm always asking for permission.

[00:03:46] All of a sudden, I've worked with someone who just knocks on doors and approaches people.

[00:03:52] And like with the motto of, you know, the worst thing that can happen is that I will get a no.

[00:03:59] And that really affected how I'm thinking and operating in the world now as a solopreneur.

[00:04:06] So definitely audacity.

[00:04:08] So we go on the fun side. Let's talk about food.

[00:04:11] Tell me about a food that you make or buy for somebody else or for others that you believe makes them feel love for you.

[00:04:21] Or tell me about a food where you've received that has done that for you.

[00:04:28] Yeah, so I'm not much of a cooker or a baker.

[00:04:34] I don't like it, and I also don't have time for it, but I definitely receive food from others.

[00:04:41] I definitely like that.

[00:04:43] For me, all sorts of bread or dough and chocolate, which I'm really addicted to.

[00:04:49] That came to an extreme when I was in my third trimester with my little one.

[00:04:55] I felt so huge.

[00:04:57] So the most logical thing to do was to eat chocolate.

[00:05:00] So I just ate chocolate.

[00:05:02] And that's how I passed my addiction also to my little son.

[00:05:06] My wife makes homemade challah, and she weaves in chocolate for dessert challah, which I don't think a lot of people understand how amazing that can be.

[00:05:17] But I totally appreciate where you're coming from.

[00:05:21] That's a heaven of a combination.

[00:05:23] Oh, my God.

[00:05:24] You should invite me sometime.

[00:05:26] Of course.

[00:05:32] So let's talk about mental focus.

[00:05:34] How do you keep the focus in your work, being an IO?

[00:05:38] And where did that come from?

[00:05:40] What model did you use to keep your focus?

[00:05:45] Yeah.

[00:05:45] So focus, I find, is one of the hardest things to keep in any occupation.

[00:05:53] And I think as a founder, even more, because there are so many areas and domains that you have to address.

[00:06:01] I'm not just a professional.

[00:06:02] I need to also be a business person.

[00:06:04] And I also have to take care of technology.

[00:06:07] So, so many aspects.

[00:06:10] And with all the information that is just barging in, you know, from everywhere, if it's Slack or WhatsApp and email and social network communities, it's one of the key challenges.

[00:06:24] The one technique that I think it's a well-known technique, but I'm doing it basically since forever is time blocking.

[00:06:33] When I need to focus, I will time block and I will disconnect.

[00:06:39] I will manage expectations with my team that in the upcoming two to three hours, I'm not available.

[00:06:45] And I'll just dive into deep work because sometimes there are tasks that you just can't handle it at all.

[00:06:54] So definitely time blocking for me.

[00:06:56] How much is a follow-up?

[00:06:58] How much time blocking do you do?

[00:07:00] Is it certain days?

[00:07:02] Is it three hours a day?

[00:07:03] Do you have a model that you mimic from week to week or month to month?

[00:07:08] Yeah.

[00:07:09] I try to time block at least two hours a day.

[00:07:14] It can be in different times of the day, but I try for it to be in the morning when I'm most focused.

[00:07:21] Also because of the time differences from our clients, it's the most quiet time for me in the morning.

[00:07:27] But of course you have to adapt because sometimes you have more projects that need focus or you need more time or less time.

[00:07:35] So it does change, but I try to have some time blocked each and every day.

[00:07:39] I do the same thing, by the way.

[00:07:41] I mean, I'm a good company then.

[00:07:44] No, I think it's a winner and I encourage the teams I work with to do the same.

[00:07:49] Definitely.

[00:07:55] Next question.

[00:07:57] A movie, a play, a musical or poem or book.

[00:08:01] Give me one that speaks to you and why it does.

[00:08:07] And then was it something you came up on your own or was it recommended to you?

[00:08:14] Okay.

[00:08:15] So I call it my work Bible.

[00:08:17] It's the book Work Rules by Laszlo Bock, which was head of people for Google for 10 years.

[00:08:24] And back when no one knew the pair of words, people analytics, he laid down the foundations of what it is and gave so many eye-opening examples of how Google does it all across the employee life cycle.

[00:08:41] From hiring to development to training, promotion.

[00:08:45] It was really eye-opening for me because we saw case studies here and there.

[00:08:50] But seeing a company implemented so thoroughly, so methodologically and lay down the ground for other companies.

[00:08:59] For me, it was eye-opening.

[00:09:01] I actually read it several times, gave it as presents to my team, to other people.

[00:09:06] So definitely Work Rules.

[00:09:09] That's a great one.

[00:09:16] The next one I've got is about briefing out now.

[00:09:22] The concept is, all of a sudden, someone has asked you a series of questions and you've got to pull together something fast.

[00:09:29] Every role has this.

[00:09:31] It could be a senior executive.

[00:09:32] It could be a board member.

[00:09:34] It could be a customer.

[00:09:36] So how do you organize yourself when that happens, when you have little time to prepare?

[00:09:41] How do you get that audience to understand your story, but then also lean into it?

[00:09:47] It's easy to be fast, but you have to be effective.

[00:09:51] So talk a little bit about that.

[00:09:53] Yeah.

[00:09:55] So for me, the key scenario where this happens, because I wear the hat of the organizational psychologist, the consultant,

[00:10:04] but also the founder who goes on demo calls with prospects and demos the product.

[00:10:09] The best way for me is to make it about them.

[00:10:14] Because eventually, you can have a product or a service offering.

[00:10:20] It has to relate to their pain and to their challenges.

[00:10:23] So I think the key benefit of that is that you have to listen much more than you talk.

[00:10:31] So, of course, I make sure I come prepared in a sense that I know who the person is.

[00:10:38] I've done my research.

[00:10:40] I've done my research.

[00:10:41] I come as well as prepared as I can to these types of settings.

[00:10:44] But eventually, it's about listening to them, tell their story about their challenges and asking questions.

[00:10:53] And only then talking about how can we help or how can we resolve.

[00:10:59] Or if it's at later stages where we're already working together and they are our clients, then what are those pains that they've hired us to alleviate or to solve for?

[00:11:11] And then, you know, even if I've prepared, even if we have a presentation with 50 slides and I only have 30 minutes or I really need to debrief someone very quickly, then just focus.

[00:11:23] Like, it's really focusing about what will be the most interesting thing, most important or impactful thing that this persona needs to hear.

[00:11:31] And it really differs between different personas in the organization.

[00:11:35] So that's how I tackle it, Julie.

[00:11:36] I love that you just used the word persona and you're staying focused on them, right?

[00:11:42] It's really easy to make the topic about what you know as an expert rather than how they're going to interpret it and take that information.

[00:11:52] One more note that I think it relates to also understanding human psychology.

[00:11:57] Like recently, I've been doing a lot of research about salespeople and what makes salespeople successful at their work.

[00:12:03] And I think a lot of salespeople are focused on pitching.

[00:12:07] Like, this is my product.

[00:12:09] This is how great it is.

[00:12:10] This is the features.

[00:12:11] But eventually, people want to be heard.

[00:12:14] Like the client and each of us as a person, we enjoy being heard.

[00:12:19] That is the place that actually creates the connection and builds the trust.

[00:12:23] So I think it's just a basic human need that each one of us in their role, we need to acknowledge and utilize.

[00:12:32] Excellent.

[00:12:33] Excellent.

[00:12:39] So let's talk about education and classes.

[00:12:42] It doesn't matter if this is the earliest time that you've had education in a primary or secondary school or professional learning or even personal.

[00:12:52] What made you raise your hand, get you to participate, get you excited, get you to ask questions?

[00:12:57] What was that class?

[00:13:00] For me, although I was an excellent student, formal education was about memorizing things and then spitting them out when a test comes.

[00:13:13] I think the real engaging educational experience that I had is at my first job as an organizational psychologist.

[00:13:23] Because that job and this, I think, is like a kind of a general lesson of what a good job looks like.

[00:13:32] My boss was an amazing mentor.

[00:13:35] So she wasn't just about, okay, these are the instructions, now get the job done.

[00:13:41] She was really into teaching and conveying all of the knowledge that she has.

[00:13:46] She made it really comfortable to ask questions.

[00:13:50] It wasn't judgmental in any way.

[00:13:52] It's appreciative towards asking questions.

[00:13:57] There is a lot of psychological safety.

[00:13:59] You could also make mistakes.

[00:14:01] And she understood it's just part of the process of learning.

[00:14:04] I'm so grateful to have that person as a mentor in my first job because I think that was such a shaping experience for me that eventually it built the foundation for my entire career.

[00:14:18] Like she made me fall in love with psychometrics, with building assessments, with consulting organizations around making data-driven people decisions.

[00:14:26] The way that she conveyed the information and taught me and mentored me made me fall in love with it.

[00:14:33] And here I am today.

[00:14:35] I'm interpreting that it's almost like the class itself was this, it wasn't one class.

[00:14:41] It was the module.

[00:14:43] It was the constant building of those sessions.

[00:14:47] And I'm not convinced that people think about mentoring that way or have that deliberate.

[00:14:55] There's all kinds of ways to do it.

[00:14:57] I really love how you frame that.

[00:15:00] Okay, so pick one of these.

[00:15:02] It's either community or conflict.

[00:15:05] So how do you create either community or conflict?

[00:15:14] How do you create community?

[00:15:16] Or how do you diffuse conflict?

[00:15:20] This way you can increase connectiveness.

[00:15:24] Yeah.

[00:15:25] So I'll take the conflict one because I think for us as professionals and as leaders trying to bring or implement change in the workplace, we run into a lot of conflict or pushback.

[00:15:41] People generally don't like change.

[00:15:44] When you have a certain approach, like for me, it's the data-driven approach.

[00:15:47] It's the skills-based approach.

[00:15:49] You will always meet people that do not agree with you.

[00:15:53] That think, for example, that hiring is more an art than a science.

[00:15:58] That interviews should be held as conversations.

[00:16:01] I run into these when I implement new processes or a product in companies.

[00:16:09] A simple technique for me to diffuse conflict is to acknowledge the common ground.

[00:16:16] Even if I meet a hiring manager that doesn't believe in structured interviews or skills-based hiring, both of us are here to hire the best people for the job.

[00:16:26] We want the most qualified people.

[00:16:28] We just believe that there is a different approach into finding those people.

[00:16:33] So first of all, acknowledge what do we agree on?

[00:16:36] Listen.

[00:16:37] Before I come with all of my knowledge and expertise, like I'm a person.

[00:16:42] They're a person.

[00:16:43] Let's talk.

[00:16:44] Let's get to know each other.

[00:16:46] Let's understand what we have in common.

[00:16:48] Even besides the professional part, even as humans, it's much easier to start a discussion.

[00:16:54] People are less defensive then.

[00:16:58] Excellent.

[00:17:05] Okay.

[00:17:05] We're not going to talk about AI because I think everybody talks about AI.

[00:17:09] But I do want to talk about...

[00:17:11] Wow.

[00:17:12] I mean, it's everywhere.

[00:17:14] But I want to talk about technology.

[00:17:18] What do you think is going to be retired in terms of technology almost completely?

[00:17:22] It can be anything.

[00:17:23] It could be healthcare, something related to transportation, construction, HR, anything.

[00:17:30] What do you think is going to just get set down and not get used anymore?

[00:17:37] Yeah.

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:39] So my mind naturally takes me to HR because that's the domain I operate in.

[00:17:44] Recently, I've been having a lot of thoughts.

[00:17:49] And it's not that I'm sure that it's going to be instinct.

[00:17:52] It's just ponderings about documentation and typing because specifically in interviews, but also anywhere else.

[00:18:01] It's like we sit, right?

[00:18:04] Every day we sit at our tables.

[00:18:05] We write emails.

[00:18:07] We write documents in interviews.

[00:18:09] We take notes.

[00:18:10] With all of that transcription technology and the ability to record yourself and then transcribe and all of this, I have a lot of thoughts about will this go away?

[00:18:24] And what does it mean?

[00:18:26] Because on the one hand, with our platform, we have transcription capability because we want interviewers to be focused not on the technical documentation, but on actually building rapport with the candidate and able to focus all of their attention on actually assessing the relevant skills.

[00:18:46] But on the other hand, for example, I'm a person that processes information via writing.

[00:18:52] So that's just the way I remember.

[00:18:56] So although it's sometimes easier for me, you know, to write an email or a document by clicking on the microphone and having transcribe everything I say, I remember and process the information to a deeper level when I type.

[00:19:14] So it's just kind of a pondering where will this go and how will it affect people like me that process information through writing?

[00:19:24] So that's kind of my thought.

[00:19:26] Well, I really like that.

[00:19:28] You think about it generationally.

[00:19:30] Our children are growing up in a world where they just speak, but they're speaking into their phones to engage.

[00:19:39] They're not even thumbing anymore.

[00:19:41] I've catch myself not thumbing anymore.

[00:19:43] And that, you know, we weren't doing that until really the 90s and late 80s.

[00:19:49] It is kind of fascinating to that.

[00:19:52] That's a great one.

[00:19:53] I love that.

[00:19:54] You know, it's instrumental.

[00:19:56] Yeah.

[00:19:56] That you're looking at it.

[00:20:02] So let's talk about work-life balance.

[00:20:05] How have you helped another colleague who is struggling with this?

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:14] That's a good question.

[00:20:15] And the reason why I'm laughing is because I think if this was a job interview, this is where I would get disqualified.

[00:20:23] Because I'm that friend.

[00:20:25] I'm that friend who really needs help with work-life balance.

[00:20:31] Throughout my life, it still is.

[00:20:34] Like, it's a real struggle to manage it.

[00:20:36] I don't have a choice because I have two kids.

[00:20:40] I have a family.

[00:20:42] What works for me is that I'm a very structured person, but I had to understand that this is not something that I can perfectly arrange.

[00:20:53] Once I've acknowledged that, the mental load was removed off of me.

[00:20:58] And then I understood I can also be flexible about how my balance looks like.

[00:21:02] So there are days where when I work really from morning until very late at night.

[00:21:11] So I have like a 12, 13, 14-hour day.

[00:21:14] But I also have days where I finish early to be with my kids.

[00:21:18] And for me, that works.

[00:21:21] That's my balance.

[00:21:22] If I would give advice to other people, I would tell them don't get hung up on an ideal model.

[00:21:31] So find what balance means to you and what works best for you and do that.

[00:21:39] Excellent.

[00:21:40] Thank you.

[00:21:41] So we got one more of the 10 questions.

[00:21:43] Then we go into the lightning round.

[00:21:49] So your last question is, if you were to create a music group, what type of music would you play?

[00:21:58] And what's the name of your band?

[00:22:01] I love that question.

[00:22:04] First of all, I have to say, I come from a musical family.

[00:22:07] My father is a singer.

[00:22:08] I have a brother who plays the keyboard.

[00:22:10] So it's a good question.

[00:22:14] If I had a band, it would definitely be a hip hop band, an R&B rap type band.

[00:22:22] And the name of your hip hop band is?

[00:22:28] It would be R&P, not R&B, R&P, which stands for regression and prediction.

[00:22:37] Love it.

[00:22:39] I love it.

[00:22:39] Data is everywhere.

[00:22:40] Now I really feel like I want to start that band.

[00:22:43] That's my next startup, Andrew.

[00:22:45] I love it.

[00:22:52] Okay, so now we're going to go into the lightning round.

[00:22:55] No one's gotten these questions.

[00:22:57] They're either binary or they're categorical.

[00:23:00] So just react quickly.

[00:23:02] And whatever comes into your head first.

[00:23:05] Are you ready?

[00:23:06] Ready.

[00:23:08] Pumpkin spice or gingerbread?

[00:23:11] Gingerbread.

[00:23:13] Toilet roll.

[00:23:14] Do you put it forward or do you put it backward, the sheet?

[00:23:18] Forward.

[00:23:19] Forward.

[00:23:20] Summer or winter Olympics?

[00:23:24] Anything in the winter is off the record.

[00:23:27] Definitely summer.

[00:23:28] Sandals.

[00:23:28] Can you wear socks or not?

[00:23:31] No, definitely not.

[00:23:34] Butter or no butter on your popcorn?

[00:23:38] Butter for sure.

[00:23:40] Can you bring fast food on a plane?

[00:23:42] Yes or no?

[00:23:44] Yes.

[00:23:46] Okay.

[00:23:46] Roller coasters or water slide?

[00:23:51] Wow.

[00:23:52] I'm such a coward.

[00:23:54] Roller coasters.

[00:23:55] Roller coasters for sure.

[00:23:56] Oreos.

[00:23:57] Do you break them or pull them apart and lick the middle?

[00:24:01] I break them.

[00:24:03] I break them.

[00:24:04] Pancakes or waffles?

[00:24:07] Pancakes.

[00:24:08] Sprinkles.

[00:24:09] Do you like the rainbow kind or the chocolate kind?

[00:24:12] The chocolate kind.

[00:24:14] Okay.

[00:24:15] Apple or Android?

[00:24:19] Android.

[00:24:20] Okay.

[00:24:21] Is the first Die Hard with Bruce Willis a Christmas movie?

[00:24:29] That's a good question.

[00:24:31] Yeah.

[00:24:32] Why not?

[00:24:32] Why not?

[00:24:33] Definitely.

[00:24:35] Do you do one pillow or two pillow to sleep?

[00:24:40] One and it's also too much.

[00:24:41] Sometimes I even don't use that.

[00:24:45] Pineapple on pizza.

[00:24:47] Yes or no?

[00:24:49] No.

[00:24:51] Okay.

[00:24:51] Would you be part of a book club or would you take dance lessons?

[00:24:57] Wow.

[00:24:58] I think dance lessons.

[00:24:59] Dance lessons.

[00:25:00] Well, that's it.

[00:25:02] That's the lightning round and our interview.

[00:25:06] Wow.

[00:25:06] Very quickly.

[00:25:07] I enjoyed it so much.

[00:25:10] I have to say I was thinking about your wife's halibut all of the time.

[00:25:15] All of the lightning round was just about that for me.

[00:25:18] Sharon, I appreciate you joining and being part of the Reciprocity podcast.

[00:25:25] This is really about the giving and the getting and really fantastic insights.

[00:25:30] Thank you for joining today.

[00:25:33] Thank you for having me.

[00:25:35] I enjoyed every moment of it.

[00:25:36] Thanks, everybody.

[00:25:37] We'll see you on the next episode.