306: Living Better to Lead Better with Scott Eblin

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[00:01:23] We partner with a business into thought leadership and get real results. Want to learn more? Head over to RepCap.com. Because of the age we live in, it's very easy to end up in a chronic state of fight or flight. Fight or flight is your body's gas pedal and the rest and digest is your body's braking system.

[00:01:40] And I think to really be effective from a self-management standpoint, you have to be one aware of that and two, be intentional about activating your rest and digest response to get you out of this pedal to the metal kind of lifestyle where it's really more reactive than responsive. Hey, everybody. I'm Lori Rudiman. Welcome to Punk Rock HR.

[00:02:05] My guest today is Scott Eblin, a globally recognized executive coach and the best-selling author of The Next Level and overworked and overwhelmed. Thinkers 50 and Global Gurus have both named him one of the top coaches in the world. He spent a decade on the faculty at Georgetown's leadership coaching program, and he has worked with leaders across virtually every major industry.

[00:02:30] Scott is also a longtime fan, and flattery will get you everywhere with me and a spot on the show. So if you're interested in a conversation with the OG executive coach, well, sit back and enjoy my chat with Scott Eblen on this week's Punk Rock HR. Hey, Scott. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:59] Hey, Lori. Really happy to be here. It's been a long time coming. I know. Our paths have been crossed for a long time, and I first invited you to come on the podcast in 2020, and then I forgot about it because of COVID. COVID brain, COVID life, all the above. Oh, man, dude. But listen, before we get started talking about all good things in your ecosystem, why don't you tell everybody just briefly who you are and what you're all about?

[00:03:25] All right. So I'm Scott Eblen, and I have been referred to by the people at coaching.com as an OG executive coach, which, you know, that's the only time of my life ever I've been called an OG, so I'm going to go with that. I've been coaching for 25 years, and back when I started, it was, you kind of had to explain to people the difference between executive coaching and life coaching and all of that. And I love what I do. These days, coach mainly C-suite people. I've written a couple of books.

[00:03:56] The Next Level is a book about what you need to pick up and let go of as you move into bigger leadership roles. And Overworked and Overwhelmed is a book about how you manage yourself when life is crazy, as it typically is, and people are in a chronic state of fight or flight. And that kind of leads to really what I'm focusing on a lot these days and what I'm really most passionate about is the connection between living better and leading better,

[00:04:19] because I really firmly believe that really effective self-management is the prerequisite to leading well. And so that's what I focus on. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty comprehensive. It's inspiring to me. And we could talk about all the reasons why I love and adore your work, but I do want to talk about how we have a mutual connection and someone we admire deeply. Do you want to talk about this person? Would that be Mary Ellen Slater?

[00:04:47] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's give her flowers. How do you know Mary Ellen Slater? My gosh, Mary Ellen and I go back so far. I'm trying to think like I did a cold call email to the Smart Brief on Leadership newsletter that comes out daily and has for decades now, I think. And Mary Ellen, this must have been like 2009 or 10 maybe.

[00:05:12] She, if I remember correctly, she was at Smart Brief at that point and she was the editor of Smart Brief. She had just left the Washington Post and she actually answered my email and they started running occasionally running things from my blog back when blogging was, you know, the podcasting of its day. And yeah, and so we were, we both lived in the DC area at the time and we got together a few times in person.

[00:05:40] And then Mary Ellen reminded me the other day on an email that when she went out on her own leaving Smart Brief to start Reputation Capital, RepCap, I was her very first client.

[00:06:20] Amazing, amazing. Well, I love that. That's a longer story about why I was doing yoga headstands. But yeah, so. I love, I love going on a trip down memory lane with people, especially when we have someone in common because I too met Mary Ellen Slater around 2008, 2009. She pulled me into her Smart Brief ecosystem. And that's how I came very early across your work and thought, oh, he's someone to just kind of like spy on, on LinkedIn.

[00:06:49] Well, and so we've been, we've been spying on each other for like 20 years now, right? I know, I know. I've been doing the same thing with you. And I just, I love your voice. You know, just the voice that you presented. It's so consistent and fun and smart and all those good things. And so, yeah, it's a real pleasure to be doing this with you. Same, buddy. I mean, all good things come out of Mary Ellen. She produces the podcast. She sponsors the podcast. So this woman is a powerhouse and more people need to know her name.

[00:07:18] And I'm so glad she brought me into your life and exposed me to all of your brilliant ideas because we are aligned on this idea of self-management, something that I call self-leadership. And I really think all adults are leaders. This is something that I just fundamentally believe. No matter where you are on the org chart, you're a leader. And it's your responsibility to what the kids call emotionally regulate, right?

[00:07:44] But to self-manage, to self-lead, and to really take a look at your circumstances and try every day, if you get an opportunity to wake up and take a breath, to do your best, to live in alignment with your values. So I just want to stop there because that's kind of how I see self-leadership. How do you see and define self-management? Yeah, I agree with everything you said. And I love the emphasis on values and regulating against values.

[00:08:10] I bring in, and this is just kind of based on my own life experience, really. I bring in a neurobiological component to it. I'm very big on the idea that, as I said a little bit earlier, I think because of the age we live in, it's very easy to end up in a chronic state of fight or flight.

[00:08:33] I think the corporate work that both of us deal with with our clients is generally really stressful and has a lot going on. And that can put you in this chronic fight or flight state. And so everybody's heard of fight or flight, I've learned over the years. Very few people have heard of rest and digest. And that's the nickname for your body's parasympathetic nervous system. Fight or flight is the sympathetic. Rest and digest is the parasympathetic.

[00:09:00] And they are designed to work together in what scientists call homeostatic balance. And fight or flight is your body's gas pedal. And the rest and digest is your body's braking system. And I think to really be effective from a self-management standpoint, you have to be, one, aware of that.

[00:09:17] And, two, be intentional about activating your rest and digest response to get you out of this pedal to the metal kind of lifestyle where it's really more reactive than responsive. And so if you can do that, then we can do what you're talking about, right? Which is, what are my values? How am I when I'm at my best?

[00:09:39] How do I want to show up today, this week, this month, this year, with my family at work, with my friends, whatever it is, right? But I think that neurobiological aspect of it, we've got to tune into that first because the rest of it, you know, it's frontal lobe versus amygdala, basically, right? And the stuff you're talking about and that I agree with you on and really, I kind of frame it as how I'm at my best and that kind of aligns with values.

[00:10:08] But that's frontal lobe executive processing center of your brain kind of work. And what has us feeling spun up is more primal, you know, a reptilian with the amygdala and the thalamus and the threat assessment center in our brain. And it's just really easy to feel like you're under threat all the time. And so how do we break out of that? Hi, this is Stacey Harris.

[00:10:34] And this is Terri Zipper, and we're the host of the two podcasts under the HR huddle. On Spilling the Tea on HR Tech, we uncover the latest trends, truths, and challenges from Sapien Insight Group's groundbreaking research and our analyst insights, serving up everything you need to know about HR tech with no sugarcoating. And on HR, we have a problem.

[00:10:57] We tackle the toughest workplace challenges head on, offering you expert advice and actionable solutions to help HR leaders thrive in today's fast-changing world. Whether you want the scoop on tech or tools to solve people problems, we've got you covered. Take a listen and subscribe. If you want to become part of our community, we'd love to see you. Well, I want to talk a little bit about that because I think cognitive well-being is really the infrastructure of what you're getting out.

[00:11:27] So I will hear from both the leaders and individual contributors, more and more from leaders these days, a lack of sense of agency in their own lives. And, you know, when I was younger, I really thought, well, if you're an executive, you're in control. And boy, that myth was broken pretty early for me. So I want to talk about how do we get to cognitive well-being?

[00:11:53] How do we get to this relationship between sympathetic and parasympathetic systems in our body, being in homeostasis when the world is on fire? Where there's never anything but bad news and we've got increasing pressures from shareholders, stakeholders, customers, vendors, the whole ecosystem. Like who wakes up in the morning feeling ready for more? Yeah, that's a great question. I want to circle back on the agency comment that she made and why that's the case.

[00:12:22] You know, like why do they feel like they don't have agency? I'd love to hear. What are you hearing and like why do they feel that way from your experience? What is that? Well, there are a couple of things. There are only 24 hours in the day. There are external pressures on employment and life and things happening in the world. Nobody feels like they have the freedom. I mean, very few people feel like they have the freedom to just say, F it. I'll do it live.

[00:12:48] I'm going to do, you know, even at the senior leadership level, right? You know, and so I think there's like economic realities that are affecting even people in the C-suite. Right? And I just think there are some realities that go with being an adult and being in a position of power. Like you take your responsibilities very seriously. And when you're caring for others and when you're loving others, even in a leadership role, you don't come first. You come second.

[00:13:18] You come third. So I think I'm hearing some of that. I don't know. What are you hearing? So let me bring it back to self-management and back to your question from a moment ago. Like what can we do to get ourselves into more of a homeostatic balanced kind of place? I'll just unpack my little one pager called The Life GPS. And it's one that my wife, Diane, and I developed for ourselves in the 90s when our kids were little and life is nuts. And we had read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People like five times. And it was a great book.

[00:13:48] But like how do you operationalize that shit? And the GPS was like our one page. We called it Stephen Covey for Dummies answer. And three questions. How are you at your best? How do you know yourself to be when you're in your sweet spot or in your zone? And then this is getting more directly to your question about what are the routines in four domains, physical, mental, relational, and spiritual, that enable you to show up at your best?

[00:14:17] I want to take a deeper dive on that in a second. And then the third question of the three is if you're showing up at your best, the routines are helping you do that more often than not. We're not looking for perfection. We're just looking for more of good. What outcomes would you hope or expect to see in three big arenas of life? Your life at home, your life at work, and your life in your communities, whatever communities you're a part of.

[00:14:42] And so those routines, and this has kind of evolved for me over the years as I've learned more and more about it. I tuned into it with my own experience personally and shared it with clients and seeing what their experiences is and all that. I really put a lot of emphasis in the physical, mental, relational, and spiritual domains on that one point I called killer apps. I mean there's a lot of good things you could or should do in any of those four spots, any of those four arenas.

[00:15:13] But if you're only going to do one thing or only going to do a few things, where should you start, right? And so like in the physical domain, some kind of regular routine of movement is activating of the parasympathetic response. And that's because another thing I learned in the research I've done over the years, other people's research, me just absorbing it, is rhythmic repetitive motion really of almost any kind activates the parasympathetic braking system. You know, that gets you out of fight or flight.

[00:15:42] And so that can be three deep breaths. It can be a yoga class. It can be five minutes of yoga. It could be walking around the block. It could be lifting weights in a rhythmic kind of way. I mean, it could be chanting. It could be praying the rosary. Anything that's got a rhythmic element to it activates that parasympathetic response. So that's something that everybody has available to them. Almost, you know, 99.9% of the people have some kind of rhythm routine that they can do.

[00:16:12] So that's one example. I could go deeper, but I don't want to geek out on you. No, I love it. And what I hear you saying is find those rituals that have the most benefit that you can maintain. That are important to you. And you can, instead of going, doing 50 different things, find a couple things that can move the needle for you. Even just a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. A huge principle for me is, you know, XY graph. Vertical axis, easy to do. Horizontal, likely to make a difference.

[00:16:41] Every other XY graph in the world like this is like this one. You want to be in the upper right hand corner. What are the things that are relatively easy for you to do that are likely to make a difference? And start with that, you know? And it's, we're not solving for 100% at any given time. It's kind of impossible at any moment to solve for 100%. But you can solve for 5% or 10%. And 5% or 10% doesn't sound like much until you say, well, if I was consistent with 5% or 10%, pretty soon it'd be 50% better, right? Or 60 or whatever. Yeah, you do it now.

[00:17:11] I love it. Yeah. That's the extent of it, girl. That's it. But that's why I'm in HR. Right. We're in an HR podcast. You're fine. You're among friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Well, I see the genius behind it. You know, I still get back to this question when many clients, especially senior clients, plop down in front of me on a Zoom.

[00:17:30] And increasingly, by the way, I'm doing my coaching over the phone because I've just read studies after studies on how Zoom is so performative and to get people to go deep and to get quiet and to think you turn off the screen and you use your phone. And that is actually disarming for a lot of my new clients who are like, no, I'm going to hop on a Teams. And I'm like, like, hell you are, you know.

[00:17:51] But I get them on the phone and just convincing them, even at a senior level, that they have agency when their whole day is dictated by other impulses, directives, drives. It's not that they don't believe me. But to your point, they're like, yeah, okay. I have control over my schedule. You know, yeah, okay. My kids are surely going to get in a good routine. And it's like, well, they're not going to get in a good routine if you're not in a good routine. Yeah, right. That's a perfect point. So it's really about reclaiming that agency.

[00:18:21] And only, I mean, only you can see it for yourself. But I don't know. Do you have clients who come before you who feel like my life is spinning out of control and there's really no way for me to grab the day back? Yeah, sure. All the time. And what I try to point out is that's how you feel right now. Now, that is not necessarily a permanent condition. Here's, I'll just go ahead and talk about it.

[00:18:47] So much of my worldview is based on being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 2009 and having a really rough run for about a year with that. And I will acknowledge I'm very fortunate with my version of MS. It's not nearly as severe as like Christina Applegate for God bless her. I mean, you know, there are people in the public eye that have it way worse than I do. But I learned many things and am still learning many things from that experience.

[00:19:15] But one of the things that I definitely learned is, oh, okay, I feel like crap today. And early on with that experience, I would think, oh, my God, I'm going to feel like this for the rest of my life. And then I'd wake up the next morning and I felt fine, you know. And or maybe even later that day, I felt fine. Right. And so it's just like proved to me like everything, you know, other than death, I guess, is temporary.

[00:19:42] You know, it's just like it's a moment and it's going to pass, you know, and it's just so don't get like spun up on the idea that this is it. No, no, it's not it. And so then it's like, OK, what can you do? I mean, I don't want to get too deep here, but like got to bring up Viktor Frankl.

[00:20:01] Right. I mean, you know, it's just like, you know, he wrote about managing that gap between the stimulus, you know, the external trigger that makes me feel like, wow, this sucks. My internal reaction is that sucks. Well, that's an external trigger. If I can recognize my triggers and what my patterns are around those, then maybe I can take a couple of deep breaths, get myself out of fight or flight just a little bit

[00:20:28] and start considering what are my options? What choices do I have? And so I talked a minute ago about is it a reflexive reaction or an intentional response? And that's agency, right? I mean, you know, if I can choose my response, you know, I have an opportunity to do that if I give myself enough bandwidth and space to do that. Right. You know, earlier in the conversation, you talked about the difference between executive coaching and life coaching.

[00:20:58] I'm just going to say there is a academic differentiation. But so often, wisdom is wisdom. And people are people. And you form these deep relationships when you're coaching someone. And I do have a clause in my agreement that says if you are undergoing a psychiatric crisis or a mental health issue, we stop. You get treatment or you don't return. Like it's really important.

[00:21:25] But there's so much that comes up with, frankly, leaders who have not spent enough time giving themselves space to think about what's happening in the moment, giving themselves options. And what comes up time and time again are, you know, issues from childhood, relationships that didn't work well. Regret is a common theme. Feeling like there's not enough time, right? And these are just part of the human condition.

[00:21:53] So it was interesting that you talked about how there's a differentiation between life coaching and executive coaching. But at the end of the day, it's just coaching for human performance. I don't know. What do you think about that? I have evolved on that question over the years, right? Yeah. There were two big distinctions that Diane, my wife, and I, because we ran, she's now officially retired. But for 25 years, we've run the business together.

[00:22:20] I always used to joke, she was the brains, I was the face. And that's really true. It wasn't a joke. And the two big distinctions we make, back when we started, coaches didn't still do to some point. They like to refer to their work as a practice. And we had always like, no, this is not a practice. It's a business. You know, we're running a business here. So that was one distinction.

[00:22:42] But the other was, I was just like radically, whatever the next word is, I was just radical about, it's not life coaching, it's executive coaching. And there's a difference in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because people, and I would like almost take offense if somebody called me a life coach. And these days, I'm where you are. You know, it's all of it. And, you know, it's just, I don't know, how did I get here? And it's just, you grow and you hopefully, like you just said, it's wisdom.

[00:23:10] You hopefully you get wiser, you know, as you have experience and age and do things. And yeah, I don't really care. It's just coaching, right? That is wisdom and age right there. Absolutely. You know, we've been talking about executives who are kind of in crisis or people who are in crisis around identity and maybe don't have the skills around cognitive well-being that have been built or self-management, self-leadership, right?

[00:23:37] But I think the thing that constantly gives me hope is that I'll come across individuals who maybe are just struggling with the constraints of capitalism, right? But they're otherwise killing it. They're solving big problems. They're doing great work and they just have a measured way of thinking about what they can do and what they can't do.

[00:23:58] So I wonder if you see people who are just like doing their best and thriving and maybe we can talk about why it is they're thriving even in crazy times and what thriving really looks like. Okay. Can I ask you a question first though? Yeah. Because I love the, I was really intrigued when you said the constraints of capitalism. Could you list your top two or three? What are the constraints of capitalism? Sure. What leader isn't currently thinking about budget cuts right now? Yeah.

[00:24:28] What leader isn't thinking about the implications of AI? What leader isn't thinking about rising healthcare costs in the business? What leader isn't thinking about energy consumption and energy costs, right? I mean, there are a million things going on. What person isn't thinking about what's happening in Iran right now? What leader hasn't had to break up a heated discussion, even if it's just via email, between someone who's got a position on Palestine and someone who has a position on Israel?

[00:24:55] Do you know how many leaders who have come to me and said, you know, I've got a worker who doesn't feel comfortable reporting into so-and-so for X reason? Like that happens more often than you think. What leader isn't dealing with generational differences in the workplace, right? I mean, there are like a million things that are interrelated to capitalism. And what I mean by that is scarcity, right? I mean, we're constantly faced with scarcity. So, and yet in the face of all that, people are doing great work.

[00:25:26] They're curing diseases. They're, you know, making gains in energy. They're building beautiful buildings. They're creating efficiencies in the healthcare system. Things are going right in a lot of ways, but it's hard to focus on that. And I just wonder, what do you think about all that? So, I bring it back to what you talked about earlier, you know, the values.

[00:25:48] And I think the people who are able to ignore, I don't want to say fully ignore, let's say block out for a while, the noise and the swirl. Because all those amazing things you just talked about, the beautiful buildings and the art and the medical research and all the stuff that requires creativity and thought and discernment and critical thinking and all the stuff that is not being in chronic fight or flight.

[00:26:19] Values and self-management. And so, I talk a lot, and I mentioned it earlier, I talk a lot about how are you at your best. And I think about that, you know, Diane and I have done our own life GPS for 30 years now. And so, what are the four or five words or phrases that describe you when you're really in your sweet spot and you're doing your best work and you're, I don't mean it from an Oprah standpoint, but living your best life?

[00:26:46] I mean, you know, like showing up, you know, in a way that's optimal or as close as you can. And so, like mine for the last few years have been when I'm at my best, I'm calm, clear, connected, creative, loving, and fun. Those are my six. And I use those, the GPS analogy is for a reason. It's like the latitude and the longitude that I want to true back to.

[00:27:11] And if I have those words in mind, and I'm aware of those, a lot of mornings when I do my quiet time in the morning, I'll just look at my sheet and think I'll reflect on all the words as a set. Or if I have a particular challenge that I know is going to be on my calendar that day that's going to require a deeper sense of connection or I need to create space to be creative. Like, I really think about how do I need to approach today to be that way, right?

[00:27:39] To be creative or to be loving in a different way or with a person who's challenging for me or whatever, right? And so, it's kind of some visualization, but just in a really specific particular way. And that makes it more likely than me or anybody else who does a process like that is going to show up in a fully productive kind of way or something approaching fully productive.

[00:28:07] And then the outcomes are better. And so, you know, it's my version of thriving. And I think that phrase, my version, is really important. Everybody's got their own unique happy place, right? And I think tuning into what is that for you and, again, back to the routines, what are the routines that reinforce that way of being for you? It's really important to build that out over time.

[00:28:34] And it's, you know, in my own personal case and in the case, a number of my clients have been doing it for years. It's a years-long process. That's okay. It's good. It's all learning. You know, we're just on this journey. Hey, this is William Tincup. Listen, we did a series for iSolved called Heroes of HR where we talk to HR practitioners. And these are just your run-of-the-mill, everyday, slogging it out, 300 employees and Cedar Rapids, HR pros.

[00:29:04] Mostly it's centered around iSolved and they're what they do with iSolved. But also they talk a lot about kind of the day-to-day rigor of HR. If you're curious about that, search for Heroes of HR wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. Well, I'm thinking about some really interesting things you said. Quiet time in the morning, reflection, processing. And again, there are so many people who are listening to this podcast who would say, that's good for you.

[00:29:33] Where am I going to get that time? Huh, yeah. Yeah. And I think the conversation around believing that you can say, the state I'm in is fundamentally no longer working. And I've got to make some changes. That's possible. It's possible. I mean, it may not change overnight, right? As you mentioned before, it's a years-long process. But you can start to pick out the things, your red lines. I'm no longer going to participate in this. I'm sorry. You know, I'm going to hurt your feelings.

[00:30:02] I'm going to make a decision. You know, but this today stops now is a brave conversation to have with yourself and other people. But it's necessary if you want to learn. You want to grow and you want to thrive. I don't know. What do you think about that? Yeah. Well, you know, the word that came to mind when you said that is boundaries, right? You know, and one of my favorite little things to ask people or to talk with people about is two really important questions about boundaries. One is, do you have any?

[00:30:32] That's number one. Great question. Exactly. Because a lot of people actually maybe don't. And the second one is, if you have any, does anybody else know what they are? Because if they don't, then it's really hard for you to enforce your boundaries. And maybe people need to know what they are so they can help you stay accountable to your boundaries or honor your boundaries or understand what your ground rules are or whatever, right? And so, yeah, being deliberate about that.

[00:31:00] I wanted to come back to another thing you said, like the person's listening to this. You know, we got these two coaches like you and me have been doing this forever and our lives are just like, you know, so is that. Okay. Right. Nobody gets 100% of 100%. And what I mean by that is like, yeah, I've got all these routines and my optimal version of all those looks like this. Well, that's 100% of 100%. And it's hardly ever a day in life where you get 100% of 100%, right?

[00:31:26] But the good thing about knowing what optimal looks like is then you can make informed choices when you don't have the bandwidth or the space to be optimal, like you're on a business trip or your calendar's racked and stacked all day or whatever. And you got to start at 730 when you really prefer to start at 830 or 9. Okay. I hear you. Yeah. If you can't get that, this is going to be crazy.

[00:31:52] Like my preferred, and I've worked up to this over time, my preferred duration of a meditation in the morning is 20 minutes, right? This morning I did 10 because I had a busy day, right? And so is it as good as 20? Maybe not. Is it 10 minutes better than zero? Yeah, for sure.

[00:32:09] And so if I understand what my optimal is, then I can make informed choices about how do I reverse engineer back from that to something that helps may not be the 100% version, but it's the 50% or even the 25% or 10% version. It's still better than 0%, right? So have some flexibility with yourself and get some of what you need, even if it's not all of what you need on any given day, and it still helps. I agree.

[00:32:36] You know, before we started recording the podcast, I had mentioned to you that as we record this, I'm about to head to London and run the London Marathon. And I mean, this is, I don't know what marathon this is, number seven for me or something like that, you know? And I've run ultras and I've done some things. I climb stairs. And I have to say, I've never had an ideal training block because I'm not a professional athlete, right? You know, there's always something that happens. Like this year, you live in North Carolina like I do.

[00:33:06] We've had snow several times, which I was not planning on, you know? Tough winter here. Yeah, it was really brutal. And when it wasn't snowing, it was cold and really difficult to get outside. Like we had some sub-zero time, like it was freezing here. So I didn't have an ideal training block. And in the midst of all this, I got sick, my husband got sick, and now I have a sick animal. And I'm about to leave not knowing how that's going to shake out. So it's been tough.

[00:33:35] But in the really difficult moments, through all the work that I've done on my life and on myself, I was able to just kind of sit back and say, this is part of it. This is part of the experience. This is part of the journey. And I didn't, even though some things were really bad, like my cat getting sick is not a great thing to have happen. And this is life, right? And this is part of the story. It's part of the journey. And I tried not to catastrophize the things that popped up that were sometimes heartbreaking, sometimes difficult,

[00:34:05] and always a pain in the ass, right? You know? But I just, I think through the work that I've done over the years, and it's not like I didn't flip out, but I just kind of see it in a bigger picture of a bigger story that it's going to be okay. And even if I don't show up to London and run a personal best, which I'm not going to do, I know I'm going to be incredibly slow. God, what a beautiful life that I get to go. And I get to do this, right? Oh my gosh, yeah. You're running a marathon in London at this just end. Yeah.

[00:34:35] I know. It's amazing. It's amazing. And I'm really, I'm trying without being performative to live the values that I try to teach. But you are right. There has not been a day that's been 100% of 100%. Clients have been weird. Things have been canceled or moved up or whatever. And yet I'm still going to get to do this. And so I'm very excited and very honored to do it. But I think when people talk about how difficult life is,

[00:35:03] you made a really good point that today is not tomorrow. And just because something is going on today doesn't mean it's a permanent fixture in your life, even if it's been going on for years. It doesn't mean that tomorrow looks the same. So I just, I wonder if we can talk about that a little bit more because I think, you know, the brain and with your background in neurobiology, the brain is just wired to make predictions, but the brain predicts incorrectly all the time.

[00:35:32] And so when you're with a client who has so much potential and really wants to learn and grow, but is also mired in what they know, how do you move them along to trust that they can make change in the first place? Yeah. Yeah. I come back, and this goes back 20 years probably, to the work of Martin Seligman. Remember him? He's the guy that came up with positive psychology as a discipline. I didn't know his name. Yeah.

[00:36:02] Was it him? There was nobody else who came up with that? Was that guy? It was only him. He's the guy. You're the guy. Okay. All right. No, but I think I'm sure there's other people that helped, but he wrote a couple of really, I think, influential books to a lot of people. They were definitely influential to me. And the one that really sticks in my head is Authentic Happiness, which is probably, again, I haven't looked at it in years, but it's probably 15 or 20 years old at this point.

[00:36:28] And he has, one thing I loved about that book was he has, not routines, but practices, I guess, or things you can do to get your brain kind of reset. And like that client, two things. One is, I heard this phrase years ago, that client is listening to their itty bitty shitty committee. You know, they have a little voice inside.

[00:36:54] And so, you know, but even calling it that helps because everybody laughs. Everybody laughs when they hear that. I've used that for years and just laughing at it helps, right? Okay. That's not so scary. And also recognizing there's a pattern there and it's telling you stuff that is probably not accurate because like you said, your brain is wired to process things in a way that end up being inaccurate perceptions.

[00:37:22] And so one of Seligman's routines that really stuck with me is called disputation. If you were going to dispute that, like even if you don't believe it, you know, like you actually believe it's really true, but okay, just work with me. If you're going to argue against that point of view, how would you argue against it? Right. And well, I would say this or I'd say that. Oh, and then they all of a sudden what we think projects how we act, right?

[00:37:47] And how we, and in between the thinking and the acting is the feeling, you know, the way I think leads to a certain emotional state and my actions, I think flow more directly from that emotional state than they do my logical thought process. And so we've got to flip it, you know, and give you some other input that helps you not just think about it differently, but feel about it differently. And so now I can shift from I'm really down and pessimistic.

[00:38:16] This is never going to work to, oh, I feel a little bit hopeful because, you know, I do see some alternatives and now I can proceed with a little bit more energy and impact and blah, blah, blah. Right. And so I love his work, Seligman's work. And, you know, I think it's timeless. And so even though it's an old book, it's still a good book to read. Amazing. You know, I thought you were going to mention Napoleon Hill from back in the day, which is dream it, do it. You want to win the lottery? You can.

[00:38:44] You will link to both books in the show notes because I think people need to check all that out. Yeah. You know, Scott, as we start to wrap up the conversation, I think what we're getting to is that people who are engaged in the world, people who are thriving, people who are on a career trajectory where they can solve big problems are also learners. And they're not just learners where they're going out and going to Barnes & Noble and buying a book. People still do that, but they learn about themselves.

[00:39:10] And so any wisdom that you can impart on us when we go on a learning journey, not just about our industry, but also about ourselves. How do we get started? How can we grow? Yeah. I come back to two of my big graduate school mentors and influences on me, Ron Heifetz and Marty Alinsky. And Ron and Marty together developed a school of thinking called adaptive leadership.

[00:39:36] And they had a lot of really great analogies and kind of metaphors to describe what they were doing. To me, it all centers around, I usually say it's leaders, but I think it's people in general, probably like our executive versus life coaching thing a minute ago. As a leader, as a person, you can either be on the dance floor or you can be on the balcony. And it's important to alternate your perspective between the two, right?

[00:40:03] Because on the dance floor, which is where most of us are most of the time, you just see a limited field of vision, right? You know, you're my partner, I'm dancing with you and we're doing whatever we're doing. But if I can get up on the balcony or the mezzanine and look at the entire dance floor, then I start to see the patterns. Who's dancing really well? Who's not doing so well? How am I doing in relation? You know, if I can observe myself in that.

[00:40:27] And so I think being one, recognizing the opportunity and two, developing some routines of self-reflection or self-observation and being delivered about that is really valuable. And I always think of coaching as designated balcony time. You know, that my job is to help my clients get off the dance floor, get up onto the balcony and let's look at the patterns together.

[00:40:57] And I usually say like the biggest thing I do as a coach is I give my clients space to think out loud. But part of that is to observe themselves in the system. It goes back to like Chris Arger as with double loop learning. You know, it's like the little loop in his model is the dance floor. And the bigger loop is the system around the dance floor. And I want to observe myself in the system, not just in the system.

[00:41:23] If that makes sense, you know, are you working in your business or on your business? You know, that whole distinction. I want to work on the system, not be so deep into the system that I can't see what's going on. You know, I love being blinded by a good dancer and a good time at a party on the dance floor. But you are right, my friend. That balcony time is essential. And your clients are lucky to have you as a thinking partner, which is what you are. And I'm lucky to spend time with you today.

[00:41:50] You know, I talked about learning being incredibly important to growth, you know, and all learning is worthwhile. So I want people to learn macrame and watercolor. But I also want them to learn from you and learn from your books. So if people are interested in learning more, where should they go? Thank you for asking. And by the way, you're an amazing interviewer. I mean, we've kind of known each other for 20, known of each other for 20 years now or close to that. But I've never had the opportunity to really be in conversation with you.

[00:42:19] And the fact that you can do what we just did with apparently no notes. I mean, that's really good. I love that. Well, you don't know that I don't have notes. Sticky notes on my couch. You are highly skilled at not looking at them. It's just an illusion. Yes. I've got people around me handing me note cards. Yes. The team, the Ruderman team. Anyway, where can you learn about me? Eplingroup.com. Follow me on LinkedIn. Scott Eblin.

[00:42:49] Courses at eblingroup.com. You know, there's lots of different things. Boy, the whole ecosystem is thriving. The ecosystem. Yeah. Just like yours. I'm so impressed. You set the gold standard for what it means to be heart-led. And I just really appreciate having the time with you today to talk about your perspective in the world. Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks again for being a guest. It is truly an honor. I just, this was so much fun to talk with you. And I just really so appreciate the way you conducted the conversation. Thank you.

[00:43:17] Well, Scott, like and subscribe and add five stars to a review. Well, if you follow us on Apple, leave a review. That's right. That's right. Well, thanks again for being a guest. Okay. My pleasure. Thanks. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Scott Eplen on this week's podcast. There are three things that stick out to me from this conversation, and I wanted to share my observations.

[00:43:41] First of all, many people will make a distinction between a life coach and an executive coach. And increasingly, Scott Eplen has arrived at a place where it's a distinction without a difference. If you have a coach, invariably, you're going to talk about your life. And that's important because the second thing that sticks out to me is that successful people design their lives.

[00:44:05] They think about who they are and what they want, and they create the circumstances in order to make sure that they can operate optimally. But it doesn't start with making sure you have an assistant, making sure your calendar is appropriate. It starts with choosing how you spend your time when you're with yourself. The third thing that sticks to me is that Scott is focused on learning and growing, and he mentions multiple books and leaders throughout the podcast.

[00:44:33] And it just makes me think that if you want to get better at anything, at life, at work, at just being a more interesting human being, it starts with reading or audiobooks or whatever, but it starts with curiosity. Learning is the foundation for growing. And so I hope with that, you'll go and visit Scott's library and take a look at all of his books, all of his courses, and all of his resources.

[00:44:59] He's a terrific human being, and I was lucky to have him as a guest on this week's podcast. Punk Rock HR is produced by Repcap. They're a B2B content marketing agency who help organizations tell clear human stories that connect. Whether you need strategy, customer interviews, or full production support, Repcap turns complex ideas into compelling content that moves business forward.

[00:45:26] Learn more at repcap.com. Punk Rock HR can also be found on the Work Defined Podcast Network, along with hundreds of other work-focused shows. To listen or learn how to advertise, head on over to workdefined.com. That's W-R-K defined.com. And finally, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five-star review wherever you stream it. It really helps the show. Now that's all for today.

[00:45:56] I've got some advice for you. Be safe, be kind, and don't sell out. Thank you.