278: HR Leadership with Angela Cheng-Cimini

[00:00:00] I know your value, you know, how much you should be paid, how you should be treated, how

[00:00:05] you should be spoken to. Because as difficult as it is in the moment to do that, I always find

[00:00:10] that it's worth, you know, on the ride home when you have that pit in your stomach,

[00:00:13] I'm like, I should have done this, I should have done that, I miss the opportunity. That

[00:00:18] feeling is always way worse than in the moment when you just take on the fear. Hey everybody,

[00:00:25] I'm Laurie Ruettimann and this is Punk Rock HR. In each episode, we take a realistic but

[00:00:32] slightly cynical approach to fix and work, bringing you raw and honest conversations with

[00:00:37] disruptors, innovators, and even random working people like you and me with one goal. To

[00:00:43] reshape the workplace as you know it. But sometimes we take a break from all that and talk

[00:00:48] about real life-like relationships and well-being in kids and animals, and along the way we

[00:00:54] drop a few F-bombs too. Whether you're an HR professional trying to do the right thing,

[00:01:00] a leader looking to connect with their people or just fascinated by workplace dynamics,

[00:01:05] this is your destination to fix work once and for all. On this episode, we're chatting

[00:01:12] with Angela Chang Simmony. She's an HR leader, AAPI champion keynote speaker and SPP of talent

[00:01:20] and CHRO at Harvard Business Publishing. With a 30-year track record, Angela's expertise

[00:01:26] helps businesses thrive. So do you want insights from a global leader who's seen a lot but

[00:01:32] is still passionate about shaping the future of work through HR? We'll sit back and enjoy

[00:01:39] this fun talk with Angela on this week's Punk Rock HR.

[00:01:43] Hey Angela, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

[00:01:54] Well, we're really pleased to talk to you today about your wisdom, your experience,

[00:02:00] your knowledge of both the world of work and the world of human resources. But before

[00:02:03] we get started, can you tell everybody who you are and what you're all about? Sure. So I

[00:02:08] am a wife married my college sweetheart, a mother of two fabulous adult children who are

[00:02:15] amazing people in their own right, and I'm a 30-year career HR profession.

[00:02:22] And when did you get started in human resources? Was it after a stint in school, in between

[00:02:29] school? How does this work out for you? As a lot of things do, my dad decided it made

[00:02:35] a lot of sense. He was helping me figure out what I wanted to do because who knows what

[00:02:39] they want to do when they're 17 or 18? He said, here's this great program. Why don't

[00:02:43] you apply? I went and I just fell in love with the curriculum. OD, labor relations,

[00:02:49] even economics and statistics, although those were not my strong suits. And then I got

[00:02:54] a series of internships in human resources and realized that I found my calling. So I've

[00:02:59] been in this discipline and have never looked back. Wow. So you're Gen X like I am. And when

[00:03:05] we entered into the workforce, we didn't have a lot of competition. There was a low birth

[00:03:08] rate around the time of our generation. And so when I looked around human resources, there

[00:03:14] weren't a lot of people my age doing that job. It was mostly boomers at that point who

[00:03:19] were very career focused. What were your early days and human resources like?

[00:03:23] So the undergraduate program that I came out of was something called industrial and labor

[00:03:28] relations. And at the time, you either went into HR, went into organized labor or went

[00:03:34] into law school. So the cohort that I went to school with and graduated from were all

[00:03:39] very oriented around human resources a lot of them were in any case. So I joined organizations

[00:03:45] that had a real deep commitment to the function. And so I joined with other folks who were

[00:03:50] entering the field at the same time that I was. So I think I had a different experience

[00:03:54] than you. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Now I was planning on going to law school and

[00:04:00] decided I didn't want to take on any more student debt after graduation. And I thought,

[00:04:04] well, work for a little bit. And if I want to go back to law school, I'll have an organization

[00:04:07] pay for it. And I did an internship at a candy company in the HR department. And I was

[00:04:14] the youngest person at the entire facility. So and I think, you know, I was in the Midwest,

[00:04:20] you know, in a small town in St. Louis. So it's not like a huge industrial thriving metropolis.

[00:04:26] But it was a really good lesson on the humanity in the workforce at a very young age. I saw

[00:04:33] issues around, you know, interpersonal relationships. There were a lot of immigrants. It just was

[00:04:38] fascinating. And it was a union environment. I don't know what was your early HR experience

[00:04:43] like. Wow. So mine was a lot cushier. My first job was in a corporate office, right?

[00:04:48] With like I had my own office, right? I mean, who has that these days? So I was, I was much

[00:04:53] more insulated. But I think to your point about humanity, it teaches you something about how

[00:05:00] you bring about influence when you don't have the rank or the tenure to do that because

[00:05:05] in human resources, right? We're doing a lot of coaching and a lot of counseling. And people

[00:05:08] would look at me like a, who are you to tell me how I'm supposed to manage my people?

[00:05:11] Well, actually I think I have some insights that might be really helpful to you, even though

[00:05:16] I haven't walked a mile in your shoes yet. And so really learning how to drive influence

[00:05:21] without having the formal authority to do that has been a skill that has served me really

[00:05:25] well. Driving influence is easier said than done. And it's easier for some people than

[00:05:31] other people just by nature of their birth, what they look like, their height, their gender,

[00:05:37] race, right? And so I'm a five-foot tall white woman who was early in my career, heavily

[00:05:45] tattooed and pierced. You know, I had a certain look to myself and earned the nickname

[00:05:50] punk rock HR as a not as a positive name by the way. But driving influence has been a

[00:05:58] challenge for me my whole entire life. And now is a little bit easier now that I've hit

[00:06:03] middle age. I wonder what it was like for you when you enter the workforce, how did you get

[00:06:10] to the position where you felt comfortable being influential? So that's a great origin story

[00:06:15] for me. You know, very early in my career, I was taken to task by a very senior level executive

[00:06:22] who just laid me out. And in that moment I decided, well, I'm either going to lose my job

[00:06:26] or I'm going to save my dignity. And maybe they were going to be mutually inclusive

[00:06:30] or maybe not. And I said, you know what? There's really only one person who can talk to me

[00:06:33] like that is my dad. And you're not my dad. So I'm going to take my things and go back

[00:06:38] to my office and you tell me whether or not I still have a job. I lifted it to my vice

[00:06:43] president of HR. Must have advocated for me because later that afternoon I got an apology

[00:06:48] from that sales executive. And he was sort of known to be a bully around the office.

[00:06:53] And I think I learned my power at a very young age. And because I was often the only

[00:06:59] only female, certainly only person of color. And so not cut from the typical cloth, right?

[00:07:05] And as you probably know really well. And I'm only five foot four. So I'm also not towering

[00:07:10] over anybody. But I think when you can understand that at the end of the day you are your own

[00:07:16] best advocate and you can either fail yourself or do right by yourself. That's really freeing.

[00:07:20] It's really empowered because I am of enough privilege to be able to walk away from a job

[00:07:25] that doesn't, you know, that doesn't understand my value. Like and I understand that a lot

[00:07:29] of people don't have that luxury and that freedom. But for those of us who do we have little

[00:07:34] excuse to tolerate that kind of abuse.

[00:07:37] I sometimes think that fear of losing a job is overstated. And I like you learned at

[00:07:44] a very young age to tell people the way they were speaking to me was hurtful and also unacceptable.

[00:07:51] And then to lean into the silence and see what happens. And I've said this enough in my

[00:07:55] life to know I was not going to get fired for saying that because when you couch it with

[00:08:00] a feeling and a boundary, and you lean into that silence, people often recognize what

[00:08:06] they've done wrong in the moment or at least they'll come back. And they will apologize

[00:08:10] later. So I'm glad that you have that experience. Do you teach that now? I mean, I find it

[00:08:15] like my life's mission to tell people you are not going to get bullied in the office.

[00:08:19] So we're going to work on this. So how do you incorporate that in your leadership style?

[00:08:23] I'm certainly doing that now more outside of work, I think. Although I, you know, there

[00:08:29] are opportunities for me to impart that wisdom here at work. But I'm doing a lot now in

[00:08:33] the later stages of my career to sort of pay it forward and pay it back. And so I speak

[00:08:37] to a lot of early career folks. In fact, I was invited to talk to a club in California

[00:08:42] of girls can finance these are 14, 15 year olds right who were just looking for a senior

[00:08:48] executive to come get them some like wisdom and what I told them was know your value.

[00:08:53] You know, know how much you should be paid? How you should be treated? How you should

[00:08:57] be spoken to because as difficult as it is in the moment to do that, I always find

[00:09:02] that it's worth, you know, on the ride home when you have that pit in your stomach, like

[00:09:05] I should have done this. I should have done that. I miss the opportunity. That feeling

[00:09:10] is always way worse than in the moment when you just take on the fear. Yeah. Well said,

[00:09:16] really well said. Well, thank you for that. You know, I wonder if we can talk a little

[00:09:20] bit about human resources because the HR that you and I entered into, you know, in the

[00:09:24] 90s and the 2000s is completely different than the HR we have today. So what are some

[00:09:29] of the shifts? And maybe what's the story that you see that you can tell us that really

[00:09:34] demonstrates the shift of how things are different today? You know, I have to think about

[00:09:40] that because I was fortunate enough to join an organization and it was it was Frito

[00:09:44] Lay part of PepsiCo at the time. And I think they had a really progressive HR function.

[00:09:50] The head of HR was definitely seen as a business partner. And in fact, they taught me

[00:09:56] sort of the triangle right. So HR should be a change agent, business partner and technical

[00:10:00] expert. And that was sort of the foundation for how I thought about HR how long it was

[00:10:06] never just technical expert like I know how to do benefits and pay people who really think

[00:10:10] about the business holistically. So I think even 30 years ago, there were organizations

[00:10:16] that understood what we could bring to the table fast forward. And I think the pandemic

[00:10:20] really accelerated that for those organizations who are still left hanging on and wanted

[00:10:25] to box us and put baby in a corner and treat us like personnel. Like they didn't know what

[00:10:29] they were doing. And so they figured, well, we'll just throw it over there because,

[00:10:32] you know, they've got human in their title. And for those who rose to the challenge, I think

[00:10:37] it was a real opportunity for demonstrate the power that was there all along. So I

[00:10:43] think sometimes out of crisis, right, there is tremendous opportunity. But I do think

[00:10:47] that there have always been organizations that really understood what H.O. was there

[00:10:51] for and that it long stopped being personal.

[00:10:54] I love that perspective. It's very optimistic and also very accurate. I think you're right.

[00:10:59] There are organizations that did believe in the power and witnessed it firsthand of human

[00:11:04] resources. But I mean, let's be honest, they were few and far between. If we look at the

[00:11:08] broader landscape of work, I mean, the past 30 years of work, we've not solved the wage

[00:11:13] gap. We've not solved racism, sexism, homophobia. We've not solved toxic workplaces. I could

[00:11:20] go on and on. And so for every one organization that really believes in the harmonious way

[00:11:25] that HR and leadership should work together, there are others that still see HR as like

[00:11:30] the thing we must have because the workforce needs a mom or a dad. I don't know what's your

[00:11:36] reaction to that?

[00:11:37] So that's so well-timed. So this morning, I spent time with a recruiter and she said that

[00:11:43] she is struggling to find HR leaders who are strategic. So I think some of that is on us

[00:11:51] as a function that if we don't recognize how we're falling short, then how do we get

[00:11:56] others to wreck? Like that's not their job. Right? Their job is not to say this is why

[00:12:00] you're valuable. It's on us, I think, to demonstrate why we are valuable and then to keep

[00:12:05] demonstrating value so we keep the seat at the table. So I think it's a little bit of a

[00:12:09] reciprocity thing because crises don't come along. They're coming along. They seem

[00:12:13] to be coming along more frequently, right? But we can't wait for those to be the reason

[00:12:17] that we suddenly get invited in. So I would look at ourselves.

[00:12:22] Interesting. You know, I was thinking as you were speaking that so many of us in the world

[00:12:27] of human resources come from underrepresented communities or historically marginalized

[00:12:31] communities and sometimes I think we're not seeing a strategic even though we are because

[00:12:37] of the biases that leaders who happen to be from majority communities come from and

[00:12:41] love. So if you're a plant manager who comes from one background and you're little

[00:12:49] Lori Ruderman who shows up another way with all of our education and all of our potential

[00:12:54] and all of our young wisdom, I think there's a bias that comes into play. Of course this

[00:12:58] individual is not going to see me as strategic, right? And so I just wonder if it's not

[00:13:04] that we don't bring things to the table and we're not communicating but it's the bias

[00:13:07] of leadership that gets in the way and it creates this weird double tax, this double

[00:13:12] bind. What's your reaction to that? Well I think if we're to believe that the bias

[00:13:17] can never be undone them, we've you know them, we've hit the end of the road right before

[00:13:22] we even started the journey. And I've been in that shoe, right? I've been in a manufacturing

[00:13:27] plant in the northeast corner of Connecticut where there's not much going on, not unionized.

[00:13:34] You know that manufacturing plant was sort of you know it employed most of the people

[00:13:38] there, very, very provincial town. And I walk in with my high-falutin college degree

[00:13:44] thinking I know everything right and I learned pretty quickly that I had to establish my credibility

[00:13:49] and it was one of the places where I really honed my communication skills to be able

[00:13:53] to read the audience, find a way to connect and bring I think as you said before the humanity

[00:13:58] of the function and why were really there? It's there to be an employee advocate and so

[00:14:03] they needed to believe that I believe that that was also my role. And pretty soon I was

[00:14:07] out there wearing my hair net going on third second first shift like asking people about

[00:14:12] their kids and what was up and then helping them to walk through a progressive discipline

[00:14:16] because they made a mistake but it was built on a relationship of trust that took time

[00:14:21] to time to build. You know it's interesting you chose the word time because I think

[00:14:26] there's and maybe rightly so a lack of patience in younger early careerists in human resources

[00:14:33] and I think it's fair. It's like why do I have to prove to you that I'm credible? Why do

[00:14:38] I have to prove to you that I'm strategic? I've worked at X, Y and Z organization. I'm

[00:14:42] an educated black woman, Hispanic woman gay man. This is how I identify and if you don't

[00:14:49] think I'm credible and you don't think I know my job that's on you but on the other hand

[00:14:54] trust is never really easily earned in any relationship so can you talk to me a little

[00:14:59] bit about the patience that's required in the role of human resources and I don't know

[00:15:04] what you see and what you feel with the younger generation of workers.

[00:15:08] Oh that's a whole new thing to unpack and it's actually preparing for a talk and what

[00:15:14] I'm going to be talking about is sort of hyper personalization of the employee experience

[00:15:19] and the generation effect that we're seeing right now influences that a lot. They are

[00:15:25] the generation of instant gratification. My shampoo delivered to me now, I want to

[00:15:32] watch that movie now, I want to be promoted now. There's a very little sense of I need

[00:15:38] to earn it, I need to put my time in so that colors everything and I will not be able

[00:15:43] to communicate to you only 144 words. I'm not going to read a long form piece in HBR.

[00:15:48] So there's all these things that are affecting how people consume and process information

[00:15:53] that doesn't translate to how relationships are born and culture cultivated in the real

[00:15:58] world and I think they can only just learn that the hard way. That's a difference between

[00:16:03] experience and wisdom, like I can tell you don't put your hand on a hot stove. You would

[00:16:07] do right to believe me but if you insist on putting your hand on the hot stove then

[00:16:10] that's an experience that you're going to get even though I imparted my wisdom and I

[00:16:15] think to your point about how do we tell people that it's just point of take time?

[00:16:18] You're either going to believe me you're going to find out for yourself because you can't

[00:16:21] accelerate most of those kinds of relationships, especially when you are young and cocky.

[00:16:28] Yeah, I mean I 100% agree with that and yet I remember being young and being like dang

[00:16:35] it. I mean I wanted instant shampoo delivery, I just didn't know it could exist right?

[00:16:40] I wanted to communicate in 140 letters or 140 characters and people were like no that's

[00:16:46] not allowed. And I'm like well, I don't want to be fired. If only I had been born

[00:16:52] in a different generation. I was right for this current generation but I definitely understand

[00:16:58] questioning the way things have been done in the past because if things were so great

[00:17:04] a lot of the problems that we're asking current HR professionals to solve would have already

[00:17:08] been solved by our great approach to being patient and taking time. So I think there's

[00:17:13] probably wisdom to learn from both extremes of the generations in the workforce but boy, please

[00:17:19] please. I mean every generation thinks that the generation before had it easier right?

[00:17:25] And that they're the first to experience discourse or you know descent. I mean it's history

[00:17:31] repeats itself and it just shows up differently.

[00:17:33] I wonder what you think about the advent of social web and social media. I won't even get

[00:17:38] into generative AI but over the past 20 years we've seen social media disrupt the way we've

[00:17:44] done recruiting, the way we've done hiring, the way we've talked about compensation.

[00:17:48] So can you talk to me a little bit about the advent of social media in your own career?

[00:17:54] Well it certainly has made talent acquisition a lot easier. I think it has become an Achilles

[00:18:02] heel for some employer brands because the conduit to badmouth an employer is immediate.

[00:18:12] Like I had a terrible experience and I'm going to blast it on a glass door and I'm going

[00:18:15] to post it on my LinkedIn and oftentimes you can do that completely anonymously.

[00:18:20] Right? So you can't question the source there's almost never an opportunity for you to engage

[00:18:25] in a conversation about tell me why you feel that way and what could we learn from that right?

[00:18:29] Okay, understand that you've already left. What can I learn? That opportunity has passed me by

[00:18:34] I don't even get the chance. So I think it means less room for error which is not a good thing.

[00:18:39] Right? I think we learn so much when we make mistakes and we have the opportunity to have

[00:18:43] the conversation and when it's just one way like social media is or it's self propagating meaning

[00:18:49] that the people who see my Facebook posts probably already think the way that I do.

[00:18:54] That's why I'm friends with them. And the people who see my LinkedIn post also probably

[00:18:59] see the world similarly. And those who comment, why don't know I probably tend to discount.

[00:19:05] Right? That's just a natural back to your point about natural biases.

[00:19:07] Well, what we should be doing is maybe seeing social media for the good that it can do which is

[00:19:12] it opens up horizons to different perspectives and facilitates conversations that you wouldn't

[00:19:17] have otherwise but it seems to be doing so much more harm than good that we've lost the plot a little.

[00:19:22] I think you're right. You know there was a moment during like me too and even during

[00:19:27] the beginning of the pandemic with you know the racial reckoning that we had in this country

[00:19:31] that I thought finally we're having a national conversation but I'm also old enough to know

[00:19:35] that pendulum swings and it's swung back and it's swung back hard and it's like me what?

[00:19:42] You know nobody's talking about me too. And we moved on from George Floyd and now the pendulum

[00:19:48] is swinging the other way to like pulling back on DEI initiatives. So talk to me a little bit

[00:19:53] about what you're seeing when it comes to DEI programs and I don't know. Do you have any concerns

[00:19:59] any fears? Well, I think I'm seeing the same thing you are right which is that organizations are

[00:20:03] an inflection point and they have to make a choice right. Are they really are they going to

[00:20:07] continue in their commitment and hopefully even double down or are they going to use this as an

[00:20:11] opportunity to walk away from something that maybe they didn't really ever really believe was

[00:20:17] a thing they needed to do anyway. But I personally feel that there's some universities who are

[00:20:21] actually gleeful that they don't have to worry about it from the interaction. They can just

[00:20:25] they can just pick who they want right like now those those shapples are off. So I you know I'm

[00:20:32] part of an organization that is going to be doubling down on our DEI efforts we're going to have

[00:20:36] to be more careful around how we navigate those waters because there are people who are laying

[00:20:41] traps and waiting to say gotcha but I believe that we're smarter and we're better intended than those

[00:20:47] people are. Time will show that we're on the right side of history on this one but we just have

[00:20:52] to be patient. Well, you know, that's really interesting that you talk about doubling down because

[00:20:56] I hear that language from a lot of human resources leaders my company is doubling down we're not

[00:21:01] going to walk away from this and I wonder what does that mean? What does it mean to double down?

[00:21:06] Can you give us an example or tell us the story of what that means? Yeah, for me for us it means

[00:21:11] not just that we're going to continue our DEI programs but that we're actually going to talk

[00:21:15] about it we're going to teach others we're going to be the role model but ever going to put

[00:21:19] more money more resources behind it. It's not going to be status quo because actually

[00:21:24] it is now more urgent because we have to pick up this slack from those organizations that are

[00:21:29] walking away. Well, and I wonder too if this is a long game that doesn't play out in the next

[00:21:35] couple of years to your earlier point we're going to have to see where this goes. Do you think

[00:21:39] these efforts of doubling down will pay off? Will they pay dividends? Yeah, I mean I think we're

[00:21:44] going to know by November. Like I because I think legislation will just accelerate or it'll hit

[00:21:53] a roadblock depending on who sits in Pennsylvania Avenue next year but I would like to think that

[00:22:02] the efforts of organizations like ours is making a difference but when they go somewhere else

[00:22:08] or when they go to buy house or when they try to take out a loan if those structures continue

[00:22:14] to have bias and in fact if they get worse then that negates some of the work that we can do.

[00:22:21] So it's such a much bigger problem than just what any employer or even a collective of

[00:22:27] employers can do it requires a really rethinking and I think in some instances a complete dismantling

[00:22:33] of how we've built our society and that that's just so far out of our control that I kind of

[00:22:40] don't even like to go to those places because it can just really spiral onto this terrible rabbit hole.

[00:22:45] Yeah yeah I mean I hear you and we on this podcast have had discussions with individuals about how

[00:22:51] systems basically need to be burnt down but in the process of burning it down you also don't

[00:22:56] control what's going to be built up in its place and so that can be very scary also in dismantling

[00:23:03] these systems people can get hurt even when you're well-intentioned people can get hurt and so the

[00:23:08] question becomes how do you do this in a responsible way but to your point it can't just be in the

[00:23:13] workplace it has to be elsewhere and are you optimistic do you see other organizations other

[00:23:19] institutions making commitments anything where you're like oh yeah we're not alone.

[00:23:25] Well it's interesting that you say institutions because one of the things that I think that

[00:23:28] you probably observed is I have this over the last decades say employers are increasingly called

[00:23:34] upon to provide right so you want benefits you better have a job you plan on retiring one day

[00:23:41] you better have a plan through your job are you lonely your employer can cure for that right like

[00:23:46] these all these all these expectations um the employer employee relationship that not only were

[00:23:53] non-existent we were asked to not go to those places like that was really inappropriate to ask people

[00:23:58] about you know you're going through a divorce how can I help you like you we were taught don't go

[00:24:04] right and now if we don't go there it's like well you're that employer like you don't care right so

[00:24:10] it's such it's such a conundrum I don't I don't have I don't have an easy answer for that except that

[00:24:16] you know I we just day by day try to do a little bit better for the folks who walked

[00:24:20] through our doors than we did the day before understanding that some days it'll be two steps

[00:24:24] four three steps back but I think with intention and with investment of time and energy

[00:24:30] how can it be worse that is so well said I want to talk a little bit about remote work because

[00:24:39] everybody's talking about remote work I mean I you know like we have an HR conversation without it

[00:24:44] so I feel like I'm going to tick this box but in a lot of ways it's very important because it's not

[00:24:49] remote work it's flexibility not remote work it's autonomy so talk to me about what you're seeing

[00:24:54] in the marketplace and maybe what you're doing at your organization to address some of these

[00:24:58] concerns about the new way of work yeah I don't think anybody's cracked enough but I got to say that

[00:25:03] mandates are not are not the way forward right like I I don't know what they're thinking um but

[00:25:08] I you know I think that's just people wielding their power and making the world look like the way

[00:25:12] they see it right they think I'm here in the office eight days a week so you ought to also

[00:25:18] and that's just ridiculous and to just spare that out right people are applying to jobs that are

[00:25:22] remote first before they reply before they apply to others even as all of those jobs is shrinking

[00:25:27] and people are showing that either they're quitting or they're staying and disengaging

[00:25:32] you tell me which one is worse so I you're right it's absolutely about flexibility I don't think we've

[00:25:37] experimented enough with shortened work weeks with work hours that are more bespoke to your

[00:25:43] personal schedule like I'd rather start at 11 o'clock in the morning and then work till seven o'clock

[00:25:47] at night I'd rather you know work six a.m. to three o'clock so I can catch my kids off of us I don't

[00:25:54] think we've done enough of that there are pockets of that experimentation but I still think we're

[00:25:58] clinging on a world that has that has gone that will not exist and I have children's of my friends

[00:26:05] who have never set foot in an office like they've they graduate from college and they don't need

[00:26:10] they don't know what a fax machine it's right like they just so um and 75% of the workforce

[00:26:17] in the next five years will be millennials and Gen Z and if we don't adopt then then the shortage

[00:26:24] of good labor is going to be even more even more sure than it is now so I had the people who think

[00:26:30] it's just it's it's about where people can be productive can only be in the office or just

[00:26:34] completely missing them. I think you're right and I just read an article and I can't remember where

[00:26:38] it was Bloomberg or Business Insider about foreign companies swooping in and hiring remote

[00:26:45] US workers because they recognize that they are so disaffected and so disengaged and they're

[00:26:51] willing to create a work environment that's completely remote and completely asynchronous

[00:26:56] for these talented US based employees and I just thought that is the global economy coming to

[00:27:02] fruition. I don't know what do you what do you think about that strategy? I mean it's a complete

[00:27:05] competitive disadvantage for the US correct? Right on and I think we do so much to put ourselves

[00:27:12] at a disadvantage we don't we don't like foreign workers to come right we artificially suppress

[00:27:19] the supply of people who are willing to work and bring skills that we don't have so we could talk

[00:27:24] all day worry about the things that we do to put ourselves at a disadvantage but that's definitely

[00:27:28] one. Heck yes and also child care I mean of all the things to just be still myopic about in the

[00:27:34] workplace the fact that we don't have good childcare and affordable childcare here in America along

[00:27:40] with paid leave and all the other things but child care specifically is like one obvious festering

[00:27:45] wound in our workforce and we're not solving for it. I don't know does that come up in a lot of

[00:27:50] your conversations with individuals? You know I think that we do a pretty good job that accommodating

[00:27:56] parents you know whether they're adopting whether or not they're you know what you might now call

[00:28:00] a non-traditional family two dads two moms the single parent the grandparent taking care of a

[00:28:05] child very we're trying to make space for all of those families because we know that if we take

[00:28:10] care of them they'll take care of us well I like that your organization is taking that approach I was

[00:28:15] just thinking in general as a human resources leader I don't go weak without hearing someone

[00:28:20] complain about childcare I don't go a week without someone telling me what they're currently paying

[00:28:25] and I do not have children like oh okay well I you know I cannot appreciate the expense just for

[00:28:34] the honor of going to work it makes no sense to me I don't know you mentioned. Well that's why

[00:28:39] remote work right for those organizations that that imposed a mandate you know just proportionally

[00:28:43] affects moms because they are still traditionally the the childcare giver the homemaker all of those

[00:28:50] things for those responsibilities still tend to fall on the shoulders of the mom or the wife and so

[00:28:55] yeah that imbalance is something that's been long-standing and I don't see that being solved

[00:28:58] anytime soon either. Well as we start to wrap up the conversation I'd love to get some closing

[00:29:03] thoughts on the future of human resources the function and it's so I mean as we just had in this

[00:29:08] conversation it's so tied to work power politics money like HR sits at the center of that

[00:29:15] intersection so when you think about the future of HR what do you think of? Well it makes a lot

[00:29:21] of sense that we would be at the center right because everything we do is about people and people

[00:29:25] are messy and they have needs and they are unique and increasingly they're using their voice and

[00:29:31] their wallets and their feet to express how they feel about that. So I think the future of work has

[00:29:36] got to be much more around meeting the employee where they are what are their needs how do they

[00:29:42] learn where do they want to work when do they want to work? What are their ambitions? What are their

[00:29:46] aspirations? So for example they care somewhat that an organization pays fairly but what they really

[00:29:54] care about is it their paid fairly right. They think it's great that you know that you spend however many

[00:30:01] millions on learning and development but you're not meeting my learning developments. So it's really

[00:30:07] about understanding at a really specific and granular level what they need and that's hard to do

[00:30:12] but organizations that don't start to really customize and cater to those individual experiences

[00:30:19] they're going to lose that town so I think that's the future. Well I'm excited to hear that keynote

[00:30:25] on hyper personalization I think that's going along quite nicely so I'm ready I'm ready to see

[00:30:30] that on TV that's amazing. Well you know you do such great work in our field and I'm so proud

[00:30:36] that you came on the podcast today if people want to learn more about you where should we send them?

[00:30:41] I am the only Angela Chang Simony on LinkedIn so I should be easy to find at Harvard Business

[00:30:47] Publishing and please do reach out and let me know that you've heard me speak with Larry Ruderman

[00:30:53] on the Pump HR podcast you know probably. Well I'm so pleased that you joined us today thanks again

[00:30:59] for being a guest thanks for having me. Hey everybody I hope you enjoyed this episode of Pump

[00:31:04] Crock HR show notes and more can be found on pumprockhr.com this episode was expertly produced by

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