Let's talk about Self-Advocacy in HR

[00:00:02] Hello, welcome to Practitioners Corner. I am your host, Laura Mazzullo. I am here with Erin Nesbitt, an HR leader who I have known for a very long time. Erin, welcome. Hi, thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Of course. I was trying to think today of when we actually met and how. Do you have a better memory than I do on this?

[00:00:24] Oh, gosh. I don't think I do. I know it was quite some time ago. I was pretty early in my career. You're just starting your business or just a year or so in. So it's been some time, but I cannot remember how we got connected. It's so funny, right? I launched the business in 2013. So that's 13 years ago already, which is remarkable. I love that.

[00:00:52] I know you and I are always kind of preaching the importance of building community in this space. And I think we are a good example of that, of staying in touch and staying connected. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's something I think it's been super beneficial to my, not just my career, but me growing in my career. It's just keeping in touch with folks and really understanding where the HR landscape is headed.

[00:01:18] Yeah. I think you've always embraced that growth mindset, as we call it, as opposed to just being stuck in a certain way of thinking. And I think that's so impactful because it's like, we're always talking about the future of work, but it's happening now. And you need to kind of be open to change now. So yeah, I agree. Kind of like fantasize about the future. I'm like, it's kind of here. Things are changing now. It's happening. Yeah, exactly.

[00:01:46] So I was thinking about, you know, a question that was asked of me a number of years ago by William Tincup. He said to me, Laura, what do you think keeps you up at night when you think about the current state of HR or recruiting? And it's a question, Erin, that I really think about a lot because I feel like it's always evolving for me. Like what I'm worried about and what I'm kind of feeling concerned about. Obviously, I try not to lose sleep. I believe strongly in actual balance.

[00:02:14] But I think the question itself is really powerful. And so I wanted to start our conversation by asking you that question, if you've been giving thought at all to what you feel like is keeping you up at night when you think about HR. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about and it touches every single part of HR is equality. You know, I think it's so important and it touches every single part of HR because it's what whether it's, you know,

[00:02:44] equality in your compensation philosophies or how you hire or treat one group over another. I mean, it touches every area and it's. I know it's something that we all give thought to, but are we giving it enough thought as business is moving so quickly? Are we actually stopping to prioritize equity and equality in all of our practices?

[00:03:10] And it's something I think about a lot and just how to improve that thought process and make sure it's moving at the pace of business as well. Right. Yeah. I love that. As you're talking about it, I'm thinking about just like fairness in the process.

[00:03:29] Yeah. Especially as it relates to employee programs and like, like, don't you find, I feel like lately I'm noticing like some departments just get so much budget for like learning and development and other departments are left behind. Or some departments seem to have a different kind of access point for remote work than other departments. And I'm like, is it, I wonder if that's what you're coming up against too, like just even observing what's going on that. Like, yeah.

[00:03:55] Just kind of different. I don't know what I'm, yeah. Access points and just different privileges in different departments. And I mean, some of it even comes down to how vocal some leaders are versus others or how some leaders prioritize it over others as well. So it might be available to everyone, but not everyone is receiving the same, the same access simply because of who speaks louder than others.

[00:04:25] Yeah. And I think we're seeing some of it everywhere. Right. And I was going to say, it's so interesting when you think about it in our HR ecosystem, because I think HR leaders historically have been really bad at vocalizing what they need and want. And, you know, just out of habit and out of like, ah, I probably won't get it. And I'm scared to ask for it.

[00:04:49] And so I feel like I see it all the time that HR departments have a hard time like advocating for themselves. Absolutely. I think there's always a thought that, you know, a different team needs it more. The commercial team needs it more or our, you know, technology team are going to be prioritized. And I think as HR practitioners, we often deprioritize ourselves as employees of the company.

[00:05:18] It's really wild. It's so upsetting to me. I know. I know. I mean, personal to us. It's like, I look at it and I'm like, it's such a self-sabotaging way of working. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think in a lot of instances, I mean, I've been an HR business partner for 20 something years.

[00:05:39] Um, so my job has always been to, you know, help advocate or prioritize the groups that I'm supporting, um, and not necessarily, you know, advocate for myself in the same way. Um, which is. How have you learned that? How have you practiced it? Yeah. I mean, that it could just be me, right? Other HR business partners may be way better advocating for themselves. I don't, I don't have many examples of people who are great at that. I don't.

[00:06:07] Um, I mean, it's, it's something that I've learned over time, right? Like, I think. I've worked in a mix of really big businesses and really small businesses, and I've been an HR team of one or many, and. You know, no one's going to advocate for you more than yourself, right? You have to really depend on yourself to do it because you know your worth, right? You know, or hopefully we all know what our worth is.

[00:06:39] And we, we have to just, it has to be something that becomes automatic to us. And it's a hard thing to learn how to do. Um, especially for the first time, right? Like, you know, even if you're advocating for why you should get a raise or a promotion, um, it could, it starts there. Or whether you want to take a course, you have to be the one that leads that discussion. People aren't going to lead it for you. So yeah, it's so true.

[00:07:07] A lot of people are waiting for permission from someone else and you just don't get it. Like even when it comes to taking days off, like I'll talk to a lot of HR leaders who are like, I don't know if I should take a whole week. And I'm like, you have 20 PTO days. Like, why are you, no one's going to come over and say, take five days. You know, that's your job to put it in the system and hide for a week. I mean, I, that's a perfect example.

[00:07:33] I just, I'm going on a family vacation, um, soon and it's a week long me and my whole family together, like extended family. And I was like, I'm just, I'm going to take two, three of the days off. I'll work two of the days. And I was like, well, that's crazy. Like a month later after I requested the time, I was like, that's insane. It's two days that I'm giving up spending with my family in a tropical location. Like, what am I thinking? Like, why am I doing this? Did you change it?

[00:08:02] I did. I changed it last week. I love that. That's such a perfect example for people to be inspired by, because it's so true. Like, why are we doing it? Like, it's, I think you, you know what it is? Cause I have found this in my own career too. You have to be willing to self-reflect and be like, what was that about? Was that fear? Was that insecurity? Was that just, you know, habit? I've never taken a full five consecutive days. Does that feel a little scary? And like, all of that is totally normal.

[00:08:31] We just need to kind of catch it and be like, why am I having a hard time with this? Because we know it's in our best interest to take good care of ourselves. So it's great to catch that and then decide I'm going to do it differently this time around. Yeah. And I mean, I did the same thing. I self-reflected on why I did that instead of just taking the full five days. And I'm going to be honest. I did it in past companies where there wasn't as much support.

[00:08:59] It wasn't encouraged as much to take the time to kind of always be available. And I happen to currently be working with a group of people that are really great and incredible. And I've seen from the head of the company to the C-suite, everyone just like they're unapologetic because they need time. Everyone needs time. We all need time to get away. And they are just such a great example where I finally felt comfortable to just say, I'm going to do it. I'm going to take the time. I need the time.

[00:09:30] Two days isn't going to make or break anything that's going on in this company that I touch. Right. Yeah, I love that idea. It's like, and you're reminding me too that people do lead by example. Like if executives are good at it themselves, people notice. And it's true as an HR leader, you start doing it, people on your team notice, you know, businesses you're partnering with notice. It's a good reminder to sort of set an example. Yeah. And people maybe will be inspired to do more.

[00:09:59] It's funny when I work with European clients like who are based not in the U.S., I'm always really inspired because especially this summer, like so many cultures are off in August. And like I've had clients be like, okay, I'll talk to you in three weeks. I'm going, you know, to the Alps. I'm going to the sea. I'm going to the country. I'm going, I'm just like, gosh, we are really not great at that here in the New York area. I know you're here too. And it's good to practice it. And I agree with you that it gets easier with time. It gets easier as we get more confident.

[00:10:29] And certainly it does help to be in an organization that practices it. Absolutely. I mean, this is, you know, one of the first organizations I've been with that really embrace it. And it's okay. And it's, if you need time, you take time. And we're all adults. Like, get your work done. Just prepare for the trip. No big deal. Yeah. It's so good. I'm so glad you're doing that. You're going to have so much fun. And like there's work when you get back, but it's fine. It's like, you know how to do it. Exactly.

[00:11:00] Yeah. So. I was thinking when you're, when you're looking at your HR network, because I know you're good at staying connected with people, as you said at the start, and you're good at just like learning with each other. What are you noticing? I guess as places that we all are still learning, like, where are you seeing gaps? Where are you seeing people struggle? Maybe it's what we're talking about now, but maybe it's something else. Like, I'm just curious where you're seeing our peers kind of floundering a little bit right now.

[00:11:29] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the places I've always seen people flounder and I myself have as well as influencing without authority. It's something I've always seen. It's a learned skill. It's not easy not to say that I do it well, but again, as an HR business partner, my job is advisory.

[00:11:55] And my job is not usually making decisions for people or making decisions on the business. It's advising and, um, you know, helping people come to the best decision. What I think would be based on all the information out there that I have. And then maybe they come to that same decision. Oftentimes they don't.

[00:12:18] Um, and it's hard to feel your worth in a job like this where I'm not actively making decisions on the business, but I'm helping influence it. Sometimes it goes my way. Sometimes it doesn't. Um, and I've seen that become a really hard skill for people, um, to really just have that type of role where you are advising as a business partner and you have to be okay

[00:12:45] if it doesn't go maybe the way you've advised. Yeah. It's so smart what you're saying, because I have seen that I've been recruiting solely for HR for the last 20 years, I think 19 years, whatever, to 20, 2007. So next year will be 20 years officially. And so I've seen a lot of change obviously, and I'm learning and learning and growth and, and really exciting things.

[00:13:12] One of the biggest shifts I've seen is that HR generalists used to be more of the doers, right? So they were like kind of the business would just dump work on them. Like, hi, please do this or manage this or lay this person off or coach my employee or, you know, whatever, just all of the things that now the shift has been, which I love that the HR business partner model is much more to your point, the advisor, the guide.

[00:13:42] Um, I once had a client called me a shepherd and I love that image too. It's like, you know, you're shepherding us through. So the business is seeing you differently now, not as much as, oh, I dumped this on my errand, but rather, Erin, can you teach me how, can you show me how, can you help me? Can you guide me? Can you kind of frankly hold my hand through it and obviously give me data and information, but also kind of handhold me through it? Cause it's challenging.

[00:14:08] I think it's, that's been a really hard transition for a lot of HR people. Cause your ego has to totally step aside. You're no longer doing as much work. In some respects, you're actually sort of sitting back and observing more. And I think that's really hard. Yeah. I think it's also really hard because it's not something you can do without having the business context. Like it's an HR BP has really become a true business partner.

[00:14:38] Uh, that wasn't always the case at the beginning of my career. It was more transactional. And I think the role is really becoming a true partner. And that means understanding the business. And that's a big shift for a lot of HR people. I think we all are taught to learn policy, you know, how we should do things the way things have sort of always been done, but that's not going to fit in every business.

[00:15:02] And so it's really now more important to have the HR lens of things, of course, but also a real strong business lens. How does your business operate and how can HR operate within that business? Right. And I think that's been a big shift. Yeah. I'm just pausing to digest that. I think you're totally right.

[00:15:28] And I wonder if that's why it's been so hard because to really, to really evaluate the business and learn what's going on outside of HR. Again, you have to have very low ego needs and just be willing to kind of come outside of your box and out of your like remit of work. Right. It's, it's like HR pros didn't have to learn the sales, the finance, the marketing, the tech before. Right.

[00:15:57] And I think now we're kind of asking them like, all right, yes, you have your HR hat on, but you're also going to gain a lot of value by learning from your peers. It's not a humble, it's a humble view point, I guess now. I think it is. I think it's, I mean, it is a, it's a humble viewpoint and, but I think, I mean, it's so important, right? Like the worst thing any HR person can do is say, this is how we've always done it.

[00:16:26] I mean, like any other department, but people are just naturally rebelling against HR because we've been seen as the people police in the past. And so to really show your worth as an advisor to the people in the business you're advising, it really takes learning that skill, how to talk about business, how to learn about the business you're working in.

[00:16:51] And I mean, we're all employees and part of the business that we're working in. So we should know about it. There shouldn't be any reason that we don't know about it, but to bring the two together is such an important skill that I feel like the more we do it from that approach, the more businesses will really embrace HR business partners as true partners. I think so too.

[00:17:18] And I love what you're saying about kind of dismantling the stereotype of the people police. I think that's like a long journey. Like it hasn't happened overnight and it's still happening now. And it's still happening. I mean, all the jokes of me walking in a room and everyone's like, oh, stop having fun. Erin's here or HR's here. I'm like, I mean, at least when they call me Erin, I have a name, but sometimes it's like, oh, HR is here as if that's who I am as a person.

[00:17:49] But I mean, that's still happening. So we're a long way from it, but. No, I know it's true. And you can't single handedly dismantle an entire stereotype about your field, but it's important to know what it is and then try to make, you know, take action that align with how you want to work and not just what everyone's assuming. Yeah. It's equally important to understand why that stereotype exists in our case, because HR

[00:18:18] was the people police. I mean, we started off as personnel. We're just filing paperwork. Right. Right. And it I mean. I am reflecting a bit on how we met in this next statement, but I had worked at a place where my job was to be the police, the policy police. I had a manager that asked that of me at one time and I was deeply uncomfortable with it, but. I can understand exactly how we got to that stereotype. Yeah.

[00:18:47] And it's important that I work in a way where people know that's not my job and it's not how I view HR either. Right. Right. And being willing to have those conversations with the business sometimes like in recruiting, I find I'm often willing to kind of go there. Right. If a client says to me, well, I'm used to recruiters being really salesy or I'm used to being pushed around. Like if I get really guarded and sort of like defensive about my industry, that doesn't help.

[00:19:17] It's much more useful if I understand, you know, I understand where that comes from and I know what they're referring to. And then we can slowly talk about why that's not my style and I get it. And, but if you dismiss what they're saying, it's not useful. And so you're right. If you have a leader kind of talking to you about the HR they've experienced, it's important not to get defensive. It's really like, okay, you know, we're moving, we're moving in a different direction now. I understand what you've felt before.

[00:19:48] Right. I think a lot of HR pros struggle with that piece because they still feel shame that that was ever the case, you know, like, but I'm not like that. I'm like, I get it. And hopefully none of us are, but it's still something we have to kind of address. Absolutely. I mean, I'm always, you know, tell people like, oh, I'm not HR. Like I'm not regular HR. I'm cool HR. So like, I know, but there's still that perception or still, you know, I met with someone the other

[00:20:16] day, they set up a meeting with me about something and I was so excited to talk to them. And they're like, I was like 40% thinking I might get let go. And I was like, why in the world would talking to me ever elicit that in someone? I was like, you know, I get it. But like, we're so far past that as an organization or as a function. It's, you know, like you said, I try not to get defensive about it, but in my head, I'm

[00:20:44] still like, why in the world would you think that that would ever be the case in this situation? Like, I'm here to help. Like, that is what I want to do. Unfortunately, there's a part of my job that may, you know, at some point be tied to a termination or, you know, performance management, whatever it might be. But that's only one small part of my job. There's so much more to it.

[00:21:11] I think a lot of people come to these interactions having had a bad experience in the past. And so they're just like, oh, once I was called in by HR and it was awful. And so it's like, yeah, I can't think of another industry or profession where this happens as often. But I often say, like, imagine you get a bad haircut one time. And then every single time that you go to the hair salon, you're just like, so FYI, like every, you know, it's always awful. And nobody listens to me.

[00:21:40] Like, you just want to do that. You'd say, okay, I had one bad experience. And when go into this new experience with a fresh slate. And I wish, I wish more grace was given to HR as a whole. Cause I do think like, that would just be a lovely way to work. If people were like, look, I had a bad recruiter once, like, but again, I'm putting that in the past and honestly, I feel like it's like dentists, like where people that like no one

[00:22:09] really ever wants to go to or interact with, but they know they have to from time to time. And then one bad experience, it just, you know, it just taints the whole thing. Yeah. It's tough. I know because there's such like, like the dentist is a good analogy. On the other hand, you get a cleaning and you feel amazing after, and you feel so fresh and you feel so clean. And like, at the end of the day, it might've sucked for a few minutes while you're in there, but you're happy you went. And I think like. It didn't suck at all.

[00:22:37] You just built it up in your head. Yeah. That too. That too. Yeah. Yeah. I try to think like, there's no good or bad. Like I get, I get defensive sometimes when people are like, you know, I know so many recruiters that are bad. I'm like, I don't know. You know, like, I just get such a visceral reaction from that. Cause I actually think what it is, is that there are a lot of people in our space who are very under-trained, underdeveloped. Like a hundred percent. I think if you were raised as an HR generalist or personnel director, like we were talking

[00:23:07] about, and then you're propelled into 2026 HR, where you're supposed to be a strategic advisor and step back and listen and guide, but really not do as much and really let other people flail and fail and thrive. Like it's a hard adjustment and we haven't really seen a lot of investment in learning and development for HR. And I think that's why, like, I just don't believe it's bad. I think it's just under skill. Yeah, I agree.

[00:23:34] I mean, I worked in an HR department and through some changes in the company, I was a glorified HR manager. Um, and then I was suddenly an HR business partner, but no one explained what it was. And then there were two other HR business partners who actually took jobs to be an HR business partner. I had no clue what I was doing. I had absolutely no clue.

[00:24:02] I had to learn by trial and error. I had to get a lot of people mad at me. I had to underperform. I had to, I just did the whole job long because I had no idea what it was. Yeah. Um, and then that's how I learned how to be a business partner. And, and the business has to learn too. Like what does this new HR look like? Yeah. The business was like, do this for me, do this for me, do this for me. I knew nothing about the business, so I couldn't help them in any way.

[00:24:32] And we both kind of perpetuated what bad HR looked like. Yeah. Cause neither of us really knew. And then you just learned over time. Yep. I know. And through good mentors, I'm sure you've had people show you the way. Yeah. I, I mean, I've had some really good mentors. I hope, I mean, I've consistently been a mentor through this program that I'm a part of. Um, I hope I've been a good mentor to others, but yeah, I mean,

[00:25:02] thankfully for the people I learned from them taking the time to explain what the job really was and ways to approach it were so helpful. I've been grateful for that too. I feel like I've had clients who pushed me to be more strategic because they have a vision for how they want recruiting to look, you know, like I had a client probably in 2017, 18 say to me, you know, I want you to collect data every week for us on the search.

[00:25:29] And I really want you to collect what you see us doing wrong. So I want it to be like, it could be a section called lessons learned. And she had come out of consulting and she was, you know, so used to very detailed feedback. And she's now it's funny. She's retiring this year, but I always learned a ton from that because she really wanted me to give her the constructive feedback of like, well, you know, on an interview, this is what candidates were saying about you. And this is maybe what, you know, your partner wasn't doing well.

[00:25:59] And like, they really took it so graciously because that's what they wanted. And I learned a lot from that. Yeah. I mean, that's not to be afraid to give it, but rather, rather. Yeah. Gosh, I mean, whole other hours of discussion, right? How to give and receive feedback. But what a gift to have a client that just is looking for that and is asking you for it and actually accepts the feedback. And in a way that's meaningful for both of you. Yeah.

[00:26:28] I've always said to be a good business partner, whether you're an HR business partner or a recruitment business partner, you really need the other party to ask you questions and come with curiosity. For sure. Like when they don't ask you anything, I'm always like, this is such a red flag. They're actually not looking for guidance or advice. I'm sure you've experienced that too. Yeah. I mean, that's one of my favorite parts of starting a new position, just asking the dumbest questions.

[00:26:58] Like, and questions like, help me understand, like, help me know who you are and help me know who your business is. And just asking, not being afraid to ask questions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully it's mutual, you know, both parties are kind of coming with that curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, it's kind of a fun question and it's okay if you don't really have one, but I keep a lot of quotes around my desk, like just things that help me, remind me of things, little catchphrases, little mottos.

[00:27:27] I'm curious if you have anything that you have kind of written down around you at work or just something that might help other HR pros that, you know, you use as kind of a guidepost from time to time. Yeah. I actually got asked this question recently, which is why I have it top of mind. It's a Maya Angelou quote. And she said, I've learned that people will forget what you said. People will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. Yeah.

[00:27:57] And as an HR business partner, I think that's so important to me. I've worked in a lot of tough situations that maybe included terminations or a riff or something that impacts individuals. It's never a fun place to be. And I always think about that because I want to bring the humanity to those situations. Like I don't want to negatively impact anybody.

[00:28:24] So I hope if they're in a situation where there is something like that happening, I can bring a bit of humanity and they maybe remember that situation because I made it a little easier for them or I was there to answer their questions or somehow just made a difficult situation slightly easier. Yeah. I love that. She's so inspiring. I love that quote too. And it's such a good point because it's funny.

[00:28:53] We can't control, of course, how people feel. But if we at least in our mind think about it, like how I think about it even when I write an email, like how would this email feel to receive? How would this conversation feel to have? And again, we don't, of course, nine times out of 10, hopefully it's a positive one. It's not always. But it's like just going in with that intention I think is very smart. And it's very values-led, which to me is so important.

[00:29:23] How do you want to be perceived? How do you want to be remembered? Yeah. We do impact a lot of lives in this space. Like it's a pretty high touch kind of job. It is. It's hard to get out of it without realizing you are making an emotional impact. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, you know, we see people at the best and worst times of their lives, whether they're

[00:29:46] preparing to go out to get married or they're having a child or, you know, a company is closing, whatever it is. Like we're there for the best and the worst of times. Yeah. And I never want to make any of those times feel any worse for anyone. Right. I love that. And to wrap it up, I would say it's important for HR pros that are listening to remember

[00:30:14] that we're including ourselves there. You know? Absolutely. We need to have a good experience and we need to feel good. And this is why we need to take breaks. And, you know, we, you said it well, we're employees too, right? Like people are forgetting that piece, but it's like, if you include yourself in the, in the whole ecosystem of work, it's just very, it's very healthy. Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad we got to talk today, Erin. Me too. Yeah. Thank you so much.

[00:30:44] I always love chatting with you. I know we'll have to do this again. Maybe we will do a whole session on just feedback. Right. Yeah. That deserves its own 30 minutes. It does. Thank you everyone for listening. And we'll be in touch and all of us will be talking again soon.