Let's talk about Balancing Technology and the Human Side of HR

[00:00:03] Hi everyone, this is Laura Mazzullo, the host of Practitioners Corner. I am joined today by Liz Matila and I'm so excited to have you here, Liz. Welcome. Thank you. I'm excited to be talking to you. For those who don't know Liz, she is head of people, chief people officer, whatever we want to title you, you'll be starting a new job by the time we air this.

[00:00:27] And that's very exciting. I wanted to give our audience a sense, Liz, of how we know each other because I think we are both good examples of the power of community and staying in touch. So can you bring everyone back in time? I mean, and the funny thing is we have to go like way back, right? Because we, I think we first met 15 years ago at least, if not even a smidge more.

[00:00:56] But it was back in the day when recruiters used to go to people's offices and everybody was in the office every day. And I remember that you were a recruiter that we met at the company where I was at the time and, you know, just somebody who we would consider using if we needed to outsource a specific role. And we have just stayed in touch ever since then. And it's been many years.

[00:01:25] But I mean, it's really nice that we're connected on LinkedIn, too. But we've just always stayed in touch. And as a matter of fact, when I had an opportunity to be looking for a new role, you're literally one of the very first people I thought of to connect with after all these years. And how lucky we were that a week later, I got a new search that you. There you go. Serendipity.

[00:01:49] It is. I think so much of recruiting is serendipitous. And you're right. In those days, we did what was called client meetings where you would go. Ideally, they wanted us to go twice a week, which was always very hard to get, but twice a week to a new client that you've never met with and just talk about the business.

[00:02:07] And so I met with you and and you're right. I think we both just put a really good intentional effort into staying in touch and checking in and just talking shop and never having it feel transactional, Liz, but rather just getting to know each other. Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's really important. I think in our space, sometimes it's a little bit of a lost art. People often say to me, oh, I forget to talk to recruiters or I forget to talk to my peers because I don't need something.

[00:02:35] And I'm like, well, do it even when you don't need something. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the time to keep in touch with people because otherwise, you know, you can and I and I get this. But like if you only keep in touch with people when you need something, it's a little bit of a turnoff. Like, oh, sure. You know, now you need something. You're in touch with me. But, you know, but that wasn't the case with us because it's like we've been in touch for all these years.

[00:02:59] And it's just it's really nice to have a robust network that you don't let get stale. Right. You want people to feel like it's not wildly weird that suddenly they're hearing from me or hearing from you or whomever, you know, with your network. You just like it's just nice to check in once in a while and see how people are doing. And it's really when you think about it, it doesn't actually require that much work to keep your network fresh.

[00:03:27] But it does require a little bit of proactive effort. Yeah, you're right. Not anymore. Now we can just send a text or an email or an article we see or a TikTok video we liked or whatever it is. It takes two seconds, but it's the intention behind it. For sure. Yep. So I was thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about, because I know our listeners really like when we get past the surface and talk about what we're really thinking about.

[00:03:52] And a question that was asked of me years ago that I loved was what keeps you up at night when you think about HR or in my world talent acquisition? And I, you know, I like the caveat that, of course, hopefully none of us are losing sleep over work. It is just work. We, you know, obviously want balance, but I like the framing because, yeah, I like the framing because I do think there are things on our minds that we're probably not voicing enough about whatever's going on in the world of work right now.

[00:04:20] And we're in 2026 and things are evolving quickly. And so I want to throw the baton to you and ask you, Liz, what do you think's been keeping you up at night about HR? You know what I've been thinking about a lot, and I think it's the fact that you and I have reconnected on a more really active way just recently. But it kind of got me thinking about the personal touch.

[00:04:44] And I know everybody is talking AI, AI and what it can do for you and all the positive benefits for sure. But for me, what I have been thinking about is where and how are we losing sight of the personal touch?

[00:05:02] Because I feel like even with AI and AI in recruitment, and I know you can certainly speak more to that, but I feel like, you know, the AI will look at keywords and it will, you know, go through the hundreds, if not thousands of resumes that recruiters get for any open search. But, and it will, you know, accept or reject those resumes based on these targeted keywords.

[00:05:32] But sometimes, you know, it's really the personal touch that makes a difference between a good candidate and a great candidate. And I worry that that kind of active discussion and like really talking in that type of way between client and recruiter, it feels a little bit like it's getting lost.

[00:05:54] And I worry about that because it doesn't seem right to me that AI essentially is playing such an active role in making recruitment decisions and decisions around people's careers. And I don't know, that is one thing that I've been thinking about quite a lot lately. Yeah, I get it.

[00:06:17] I've been having this conversation with a number of people and you're not alone in that thought, which is that AI is supposed to be making our lives easier at work, both, as you say, with the hiring process and of course with the employee experience. And all of that is great and it should be freeing up time for HR pros to be more strategic and for talent acquisition pros to be more strategic. But on the flip side, you actually need more human led HR and TA pros, right?

[00:06:44] So the personal touch, I guess, unfortunately, is something that has to be like examined with the people doing the work. And so like what I'm noticing is there's a gap with like we're training HR pros on AI, we're training internal recruiters on their technology to make their lives easier. But maybe we're forgetting to train them on empathy and compassion and decision making and some of the, you know, quote, soft skills, end quote here.

[00:07:11] Just I think we're I agree with you that we've lost it a little bit or we haven't addressed it enough. Yeah, I think that maybe it's the I mean, I hope it's the latter. You know, I'm hoping that as people, you know, as it kind of strikes people like, geez, wait a minute, you know, how are we doing things now? And kind of taking a step back and thinking about process in the way that that people are recruiting or addressing talent development or whatever it might be within the HR realm.

[00:07:40] You know, I'm hoping that people will go, well, hmm, you know, maybe we really do need to think about that that personal touch. And one thing that I was thinking about specifically was when I've had conversations with recruiters about roles, you know, you kind of like you put the job description together and here's the role and here's about the organization. And then you kind of list, you know, what are the qualifications and what will the person be doing?

[00:08:10] But in a way, sometimes it really is just like a list. Here's my list of qualifications. But to me, the meaningful dialogue with a recruiter is like, well, let's talk about prioritizing what you really, really need for this role. And what about if there's something that a person doesn't have? How much weight are we going to put on that? You know, is it OK? Is it is it trainable? Is it teachable? Is this really something that's a must have or is it a must have?

[00:08:40] But it's but you can teach someone in this other skill that they need. You know, they have to be a visionary, for instance. You know, that's not necessarily teachable or at least it's not like, you know, it's something that you acquire over years of experience. But having that conversation has been so, so valuable in my past and kind of bringing forth a little bit of these aha moments like, you know, you're right.

[00:09:04] Maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on this thing and I'm insisting that the candidate has it. But you've got me a great candidate who doesn't have it. And yet it's a very easily teachable skill. So I should maybe reframe my expectations that way. I feel like that's the kind of thing that has been so valuable in my past. And I worry about that being it's not replaceable using AI or at least maybe not yet. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:32] As you're talking, I'm thinking like how how do you teach someone personal touch? How do you implement that in action? Yeah, it's a good question. It is a good question. And where I guess the other thing, too, is kind of examining, you know, what sort of an organization do you want to be? What kind of value do you place on that?

[00:09:58] If it's a really high market value, then where do you bring it in? It's a really, really good question. Where do you bring in that personal touch? Maybe, you know, maybe maybe you're OK with having. I do the first screening. It's it's tough out there. I get it. There's so many resumes that come in.

[00:10:19] But maybe what you want to focus on is your talent development and having more, you know, personal teaching methods rather than just like, hey, you know, look at this. You know, watch this. Watch this video. Yeah. But I kind of just think it depends on the type of organization that that, you know, folks want to want to have. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about it in terms of learning and development, too.

[00:10:47] So it's cool that you just brought that up because I've been feeling like we I don't remember when I guess a decade ago. Everybody was talking about going away from just watching those videos and making it more coaching and more personalized and one on one. And I'd have clients calling me like, can you work one on one with our internal recruiter and up level them? And I was getting such fun projects in that arena.

[00:11:09] And then the last like, I don't know, maybe since covid, the last three, four years, I felt like there was unfortunately the pendulum kind of back to like we want bite sized, easy, digestible information people can do on their, you know, whatever on demand.

[00:11:27] And and I thought, hmm, I think we're losing something, though, because I think to your point, if we want a more human led experience for either candidates or employees or both, we need to make sure that we're training employees like in a more thoughtful way. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, the other thing that I'm thinking about, too, is what types of candidates are you trying to attract?

[00:11:54] You know, are you like a young, you know, sort of entrepreneurial startup where you're sort of flying by the seat of your pants and and that might attract a certain type of worker versus like a more mature, you know, organization that, excuse me, has been around for a long time. And they know where they're going and they have kind of a culture built in that they want to maintain and that attracts a different type of worker.

[00:12:24] So I think that's the other thing, too, is what type of worker are you trying to attract and what is appealing to, you know, the the the Gen Zers who are coming into the workforce now? Yeah, I think we're still figuring it out as we go. I mean, it's interesting when you hear about schools, for instance, who have made the decision to take away phones from the classrooms.

[00:12:52] And at first it was like this hue and cry, like, oh, my gosh, you know, that that's just terrible. No phones in the classroom. But actually, I have heard from, you know, interviews with students and interviews with teachers that they their social skills have accelerated much more quickly.

[00:13:14] They are having in person, you know, social conversations with their friends versus just like texting somebody who's sitting right next to you. Yeah. So I think that's it's positive. But I do think it's just things are really evolving and changing so much that it's sometimes hard to anticipate what's right around the corner. And what do we want to be like, what should we be thinking about and focusing on?

[00:13:43] Yeah. And sometimes what I found in HR with evolution is like there's so much time wasted in iteration and planning. And like by the time they've built these bite sized training videos, we're no longer wanting them. It's like, actually, yeah, we want to go back to your point, like put the phones down. Let's do classroom, you know, seminars again. Let's have people have a lunch and learn again. You know, how much did we all love those a decade ago?

[00:14:12] So yeah, I used to love lunch and learn. Yeah, same. So I wonder, it's like, sometimes I think we're trying so hard to modernize that we're to your point, maybe we're losing sight a little bit of like, wait a minute, a lunch and learn with 10 people once a month might be more beneficial than a very high tech training video program.

[00:14:32] You know, it's funny because when I was working at Environmental Defense Fund, which was the organization I was at before my next opportunity that I'm going to start. I remember very clearly we had this gentleman who had been with the organization a long time and he was an incredibly interesting energy specialist. Like he talked about all types of energy, fossil fuels, wind, solar.

[00:15:02] And it was just absolutely fascinating to hear him and to hear him talking about that. And again, it was a brown bag lunch. And I remember that at the time I was new to the organization. I really didn't know that much about, you know, climate effects and warming and all that kind of stuff. And I and I wasn't very savvy in the way of energy and how to think about energy and new ways of finding it and utilizing it.

[00:15:31] And that stuck with me. And honestly, that was probably like seven years ago. And I'm still that still is in my mind about what a meaningful experience that was. Yeah. There's something to be said, as you're saying, for the human touch, for like a shared communal experience. And maybe we've leaned so heavily on tech that we we kind of need that pendulum to swing back a little bit. Yeah, maybe so.

[00:15:59] I mean, I tech is great and it sure does help with, you know, like getting work done quickly. And, you know, like I absolutely love Slack, for instance. I'm a huge Slacker. I really love that program. And it's just so nice to send somebody a quick message and get an answer, get a question answered. It's kind of like the old pop in when everybody was in the office and you stuck your head in somebody's office and you said, hey, have a second.

[00:16:29] I have a quick question. And I like Slack for that very reason, particularly because so many workforces and work, you know, people in workforces are now all over the globe and all over the country. And you can get somebody really quickly and get questions answered. And so that's just one small example. I just happen to really like it. So tech helps in many, many ways.

[00:16:54] But there's also, you know, there's also the side where it's still kind of evolving. Like, how are we going to use this technology? And, of course, you know, circling back to AI, I do think that it comes up a lot. I mean, I feel like every conference that I go to or Roundtable or, you know, any of that, it's always like, let's get together, HR people, and talk about AI. I know. And we're not talking about the personal touch.

[00:17:22] There's a slight hamster wheel going on because I feel like we sort of talk about the same thing. But it's evolving so much that nobody really has the definitive answers yet. Yeah, I think it's one of these both can be true kind of cognitive dissonance. You know, your brain can allow two opposing thoughts. This is like psych 101 here. But I think that I think we have to think this way, that, yes, AI is incredibly helpful. And all the HR technology programs that are coming up are just amazing.

[00:17:52] And some of them are going to be groundbreaking. And, you know, that end, to your point, we really don't want to lose the human experience at work and probably need to consider how we're up leveling our peers in HR and TA so that they're not losing that. And maybe some of them were never trained on that. And so both, right?

[00:18:16] It's like the people just coming into the HR world need to be taught how to bring emotional intelligence and bring good communication. And then maybe the people who've been in the field 20 plus years still need refreshers on that. But we're ignoring it. I think you're right. We're not really talking about it. So I'm glad we're talking about it here. It feels like it's been kind of forgotten. Yeah, I agree. And I think you make a lot of valid points. You can, you know, like accept both things at the same time.

[00:18:46] I think that's really true. And, you know, I know that there is fear and, you know, certainly real fear with what roles AI will replace. But at the same time, it also does bring a lot of opportunities. And I do think that kind of to your point, like accepting the H.I., but then also like folding in that human touch.

[00:19:12] I really kind of feel like that's, you know, maybe that's where we'll ultimately be landing. And we just have to kind of figure out what that looks like. Right. But, you know, but yeah, but, you know, it's still nice to like talk to people and have, you know, engaging discussions and dialogue and think about opposing viewpoints.

[00:19:35] And really just, you know, think about people's ideas and just be able to have a conversation about that. I find that very stimulating, rewarding, learning. And so there's a big place for us to remember about, you know, just engaging people. Well, and I think I think what I'm hearing, too, is so like I'm so sick of the word strategic.

[00:20:01] Right. But I also think it's the easiest word to use for what we want to say here, which is that obviously my I shouldn't say obviously, but my assumption is that AI will remove a lot of the transactional, tactical, administrative work in our jobs. And that's a good thing. Right. I don't want to spend 16 hours sourcing and you don't want to spend 16 hours building an employee training program. So great. You know, take out some of the grunt work, so to speak.

[00:20:30] But I think that does is it frees up our strategy strategy minds and ideally will free up that ability to be influencing and guiding and pushing back. And so, like, I'm thinking of the question I asked you, like, how do you teach personal touch? And I don't have the answer. I think the listeners should also reflect on that. But I do think we can at least just start with our own jobs. Like, where can we be more human and where can we be a little more fearless?

[00:20:58] Maybe we do have to give the CEO some tough feedback or push back on something or educate on something. And I think our space in general historically has work to do with that kind of bravery, too. Yeah, I think that's really I think that's really true.

[00:21:14] And also, you know, I'd be really curious to hear people say where they feel like they'd like more human touch, you know, like maybe they're absolutely fine with, you know, knowing. That, you know, AI is going to screen out many, many resumes and that's just like where we are. It's kind of like when you call a place nowadays, you sort of expect that you're going to get an automated, you know, press one for this and two for that kind of thing.

[00:21:43] It's just so common nowadays. It's almost a surprise when somebody actually answers the phone. Right. Right. Right. But, you know, so I feel like it would be interesting to hear where people would say, where employees would say, you know, I'm fine with AI with some things, but gosh, I would really love it to have more of a personal touch for, you know, this thing.

[00:22:09] And I think that would be a great conversation to have and really learn from employees because one can always make a guess or an assumption like here's where we might want to think about the personal touch. But, you know, I would want to I wouldn't want to just assume what happens when you assume. So it's true. It's true.

[00:22:33] And I am always kind of figuring that out with each and every search I work on how much my clients want my feedback or my guidance and where they don't. And you're right. It's a lot of asking questions. You know, what data points do you want me to capture? And what what you know, how much influence do you want and how much of my feedback do you want? Because it's it's a fine line of, as we know, being a true business partner, it's letting the other party flounder a little bit, letting them find their footing. You don't want to do everything for them.

[00:23:03] And you also want to make sure that they're learning. So it's it's I think it's a delicate dance that we're all trying to navigate right now. Mm hmm. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny because I just got an article from Dave Ulrich who was talking about, you know, he he does like a frequent. And one thing he said recently is that is that anticipate and engage with targeted customers.

[00:23:32] He says we create a link with H.R. and staffing, training, rewards, et cetera. We create a link inside the organization and that link should be linked to customer and investor value. He says we create this by asking by asking that for each H.R. process. H.R. processes should be done in such a way so that customers, employees engage more with the organization. And I really like that.

[00:24:01] Now, we want our employees to be really engaged and in touch and feel proud of the organization where they are and feel like they have a place there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think for years we've tried to have that conversation that an employee experience should look like a customer experience, but not many people have have taken action. It's nice to have some tangible ways to do that. And that's really smart. Sure.

[00:24:25] I wanted to kind of end on a fun note because I know you and I both love reading and we love, well, you just quoted an article that you've read and we love being students of our craft. So what's a quote? Like, do you have a quote or two or a quote on your desk or a catchphrase? Like, I'm curious if you have something you'd want to share with our listeners about that you just, I don't know, thought provoking quote you like. Well, it's an old one, but I feel like it's an oldie but a goodie.

[00:24:55] It is one, it was something that came from, I had seen it, I mean, really years and years and years ago. And it just really stuck with me. And I try to remember that. And it was a quote from, and forgive me, I don't remember what the Native American tribe was, but it was, never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins. And I really love that because I just feel like, yeah, you just don't know what people are going through,

[00:25:24] what their personal experiences have been, what their history is, how they might relate to something because of what their, you know, what's in their past and what has shaped their thought process. So for some reason, I really love that one. I know it's pretty common, but I like it a lot. No, I like it too. And I think it's, I think judgment is something that we talk about in HR and probably not nearly enough,

[00:25:50] but how, you know, we all have our own biases and personality quirks and past traumas and past, you know, family dynamics and relationship dynamics and work traumas. And we sort of forget that all of that shows up at the office. And like, it's a great reminder to think about, you know, you're, you're judging this person in the boardroom without realizing like, that's a little child there.

[00:26:17] That's a person who has insecurities and has an ego and has fear. And it's a very humbling perspective because then you suddenly realize like, you know, you're talking to someone who's complicated and layered as we all are. And I think that it, I agree fully. And I don't, I do think that it also, it doesn't mean like, okay, once you walked a mile in their moccasins, now you can judge them. It's certainly not saying that, but it's just like really, you know,

[00:26:44] take a moment and appreciate the fact that everybody has different experiences and their worlds are shaped differently from yours. So like, let's give everybody some grace. Yeah, I know. Grace is such a good word for our field. It really is. Like, and it doesn't even mean that you're excusing bad behavior. Obviously it means that you're, you're observing it from a place with, of empathy first to just say,

[00:27:11] you know, I don't know, just, just pausing to observe it. What am I observing? What's happening here? Well, and you know, to bring it into the modern times, it's a data point, you know, like let's, you know, let's, let's use that as a way to help understand each other. Yeah. And I'm glad that like, we've been talking about empathy in the workplace for a long time, but it feels like we still need to be talking about it. And that's a great reminder. Just, you know, you're going to work, you're bringing energy to the, to an office.

[00:27:41] Metaphorically or actually, and just consider that, consider what you're bringing, consider what other people are bringing, give grace to them. If there's a bad day and yeah, I love it. I agree with you a hundred percent. Thanks. Well, it was so much fun talking to you. I think we could do a hundred more episodes. So I might have to have. Oh my gosh. Has it been 30 minutes? I mean, this just flies by. I know. Can you believe it? But I think we hit on some really great points that people will.

[00:28:11] Yeah. And, and I think, you know, we're not the only ones having these thoughts. And so it's comforting for people to realize that, you know, they're not alone. Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's always nice sharing. Yeah. We'll continue sharing what we keep learning and we'll stay curious. And thank you for being on here, Liz. It was a pleasure chatting with you as always. Thank you. Thanks for having me.