Determination, Family, Impact. The Story of Mandy Mekhail and how ClickUp has become her home

[00:00:00] You know what I like about I Solved? Everything. I Solved is People-Centric. And in a People-Centric world, you need a People-Centric solution. I Solved PeopleCloud is a comprehensive human capital management solution that helps you employ, enable and empower your workforce throughout the entire employment life cycle.

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[00:00:33] Oh my goodness! Bad touching, harassment, sex, violence, fraud, threats, all things that could have been avoided. If you had Fama, stop hiring dangerous people. Fama.io This is William Tinkett, Ryan Leary. You are listening and watching Practitioner Corner.

[00:01:02] Mandy's with us today. We're going to learn all about her career and some of the lessons learned and all that type of stuff. So Ryan, how are you doing today?

[00:01:11] I am fantastic. You know, I've always... It's probably a question for Mandy, but when you say we're going to learn all about Mandy's career, if that were me, I'd be like, I get nervous. Like me? Why me?

[00:01:29] Well, I'm using all very... Not literally. It's more figuratively. You can't learn all. It's more of a figurative splash. No, but I'm doing good, man. You know what? It's unquestionably the hottest it's ever been in Philadelphia. We are burning up.

[00:01:52] We've probably topped that over a hundred already today. Come on down to Texas. Come on down. We'll take you. Not coming down to Texas. Not unless I'm on the water. Want to go somewhere.

[00:02:06] And Mandy's at San Diego, so she doesn't have to deal with this. She's got perfect weather year-round. We're actually in the middle of a heat advisory, but because I'm competing against Texas and Philadelphia, I'm going to sit my life on that one. Is it like 75?

[00:02:22] So I'm based in Escondita, which is your county San Diego, and it's inland. We can top out around 103-105. I'm still going to respectfully bow out of this one. 100%. But California is going through extreme heat. All of California. All of it. It's kind of scary.

[00:02:41] You're going to be in the ocean. So you're good. We're just going to all wind up at the coast in some way, shape or form. That's why you don't want to buy property on the coast. You want to buy it a couple back.

[00:02:55] You'll be waterfront in five years. You may have to come out from the back wall. Play the long game, people. Play the long game. You don't want to be on the water right now. You want to be on the water in 20 years. Long game.

[00:03:16] Why can't we buy a house on the beach? By the time you're my age, you will have a beach house. Beach is coming at us, baby. Just be on a cliff. That's all I ask of people is just be on a cliff. Make sure you separate.

[00:03:31] Yeah, it'll be beachfront before you know it. Oh, 100%. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing now. What's the role of what are you into? Yeah, yeah. I'd be happy to. So, hey everyone. Super delighted to be here with Will and Ryan.

[00:03:44] I work at ClickUp, which if you're not familiar is a product management software. It's all about productivity. And I'm sure I'm going to get into this later. But it's really about saving time and using that time on the things that matter.

[00:03:58] That's something that means a lot to me personally, professionally. And it's transformed my career in a nutshell. But in terms of what I'm doing right now, I am chief of staff to our people function.

[00:04:09] And that's a fancy way of saying essentially I am the right hand person to our chief people and legal officer. I directly oversee our talent dev or learning and development function and our internal comms function. And I indirectly oversee all of the other functions of people and legal.

[00:04:25] So total rewards, people ops systems, talent acquisition, you name it. And the miscellaneous fires that are the spice of life, right? Yeah. So what are you doing on Monday through Friday? The question is what am I not doing Monday through Friday?

[00:04:42] I like how she said and all the other functions. Yeah. All of my life and we're going to talk about the only thing that made me cringe there was you said legal. Well, that's a compliance piece. Keep your friends closer and your enemies closer.

[00:05:02] And so it's not to say that legal are going to be your enemies, but you know, it's great to have a lawyer in your corner. That is true. California employment law is by far any close to the rest of the country. It is so complicated.

[00:05:17] Half of the things we report on is California this, California that. Well, because they're more progressive. So first of all, it's a good thing, not a bad thing. No, correct. But it is so different than the rest of the country. Actually, sure was HCI HRC years ago.

[00:05:34] You could get your SPHR and they had a special test for people that are in California because you had to get a new because it was different. Like you do it in Texas. You can do it in California.

[00:05:46] California is the just I mean you've got to be literate in employment law in California. Yeah. It's also true if you're not just headquartered, but if you have employees in California. Anyhow, so many that sounds first of all, had to get there. Like how'd you get that job?

[00:06:05] It is a journey. So do you want me to go all the way back to high school? No, yeah. Just let's do this. Like eighth grade, you know, we've been back. Grade. Click up. I'm sorry. Click up is a cool company.

[00:06:23] I've never, I've never been inside or anything, but just the branding, the messaging, like it's just super fun light and I like it. So. Good job. Yeah. Thank you so much. It goes. I've been there for three, a little over three and a half years now.

[00:06:42] And so it does quick recap on the company history started back in 2017 that it took some time. Incubating and growing bigger. And so by the time I joined, it was November of 2020. There it was functionally maybe a COVID hire. I was a COVID hire. Yes.

[00:07:01] So it was a functionally 60 person company, but on paper, I was employee 110 which for my Pokemon and nerd fans either in this room or listening to this podcast. I'm wheezing. Do with that information. Nice. Nice. Right. No clue what that means. That sounds like. Sorry. So, okay.

[00:07:20] What was the time? I watch a lot of gritty movies. So we can get in. What was the role that you came into this role? No, it was a totally different role. So I was a COVID hire. It was a small company like I was saying.

[00:07:35] And at the time I was a director of education, totally different sector will get into that later. But when I decided to apply to click up, it was a very horizontal company. It didn't have a lot of formal departments.

[00:07:48] And so there were three departments as it were and they were hiring and it was customer support or support more broadly marketing and sales. And I don't even think that there were, you know, the formalized roles and titles yet. It was customer support rep, marketing rep, sales rep.

[00:08:05] And the talk track was, Hey, we don't care about degrees. We don't care about experience.

[00:08:10] We don't care about, you know, what, whatever, you know, other companies might care if you have passion and if you have potential and if you see a problem and you're willing to have the extreme ownership and the care and the ability to learn and build something,

[00:08:25] you're going to do it here regardless of where you start. And I really internalize that there's a really cool background story to that we can get into that later.

[00:08:33] But I ultimately applied and it was for the customer support rep. And I spent around three months on the line and are on a frontline line, I guess.

[00:08:43] And my friends and family thought I was nuts for making the leap that I did. They were very kind. They weren't mean about it, but they were like going backwards in your career you're starting over.

[00:08:53] And I just thought, you know, life is all about choices. And so if this is the wrong choice, I'm just going to make another choice. That's okay. But I'm going to regret if I don't make this choice.

[00:09:02] And so spent three months frontline representative got promoted to customer support lead where it's almost like a pseudo manager role back then. So I had a team of frontline wrap reps that I would manage, advise, mentor, etc.

[00:09:15] And then I very quickly started building things that the company had never seen before, but I knew using my previous experience and my ability of being on the line and really listening to customers and the agents and management in terms of what was needed.

[00:09:29] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend Mark Pfeffer and his show, People Tech.

[00:09:36] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing funding, big deals happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM, that's the show you need to listen to. Go to the work to find network, search up People Tech, Mark Pfeffer, you can find them anywhere.

[00:09:56] And I built what was then called our support training, our support quality excellence or like quality assurance team and our knowledge management team and the skip fast forward. They're still, you know, contributing really successful teams that click up today.

[00:10:11] I don't directly oversee them anymore because it got to the point where they had matured and evolved and I could hand them off to someone. And I had jumped around at the company again, very long story until I landed in the people team and I was able to directly manage our talent development team, which I still do to the point where I became the strategic

[00:10:30] advisor to our chief of people and legal and the various other things other duties assigned that you get at that type of a level. So we got to go back now. Where'd you grow up? Do you grow up in California?

[00:10:49] I grew up in California. Yeah, so my parents are actually immigrants. They were born and raised in Egypt and then they came over they, you know, planted their flag in Los Angeles, California. And so I grew up in the San Fernando Valley.

[00:11:01] You're familiar. Some people from LA don't consider it, but it is on LA County folks. Yeah, back off. I have my LA card.

[00:11:12] I spent, you know, the vast majority of my life there. I went to school at UCLA so continue to stay in the area. And for the longest time, I thought I was going to be a teacher and it all depends how far back we want to go, right?

[00:11:27] But it all started with this sense of, you know, this immigrant background that I came from there was not a lot of, you know, openness, let's say in terms of being vulnerable and sharing your emotions or talking about mental health.

[00:11:43] And what that could result into was people not feeling seen or feeling like they could be their authentic self. And so as a young kid, you don't have that vocabulary, right? You don't know how to articulate that.

[00:11:54] But I came from a family that had some teachers or some educators in it. And so at that age, I internalized those thoughts, those feelings, that purpose or that North Star into I want to become a teacher.

[00:12:06] And so I did end up becoming a teacher. I'll be really honest with this. Oh God bless you. Well, don't God bless me yet. There's like a long, she's just like. Oh, here's what happened. I realized that. Here's what happened. What happened? What happened?

[00:12:31] So what grades first of all what grades did you go? What were you roped into? I've done first I've done third and then this is fast forwarding later in my life but I was getting a masters in higher education leadership so this is coming later later on.

[00:12:47] But as part of the program that I was doing in San Diego, they actually gave you the opportunity to study abroad and help, you know with some educational systems abroad.

[00:12:56] So I did basically the equivalence of first grade I would say in South Africa so I've done quite a bit. I've seen a lot and there's no disrespect to anyone's kid that I've taught God bless you all. But I learned that kids that I'm not blood related to.

[00:13:12] They're not for me, so I wasn't in my future to be in that K through 12 system for long, but I still really believed at you know, I still do but at that time especially education that is the epicenter of making positive change and impact in the world.

[00:13:28] And so I transferred my skills at the collegiate level and so I started to work at universities in the United States mostly in California, public private various sizes various affiliations you name it. What was the role.

[00:13:43] Kind of something similar to what I'm doing now in my career I guess I've always have had this tendency. I did a little bit of everything and in your university that makes you a really powerful versatile player if you can understand different perspectives

[00:13:58] and so I started as an academic advisor. I led what was called the grit peer coaching program which is essentially peer coaching for impacted populations at the collegiate level so former foster youth previously incarcerated folks veterans, you name it

[00:14:19] I did that I've, I worked at wellness centers as a program manager, and then my, I'm sure a few more things I did everything under the sun for that the six seven years I was in it, but my last role in higher education was as a reg residents director.

[00:14:34] I think there are some jobs that might not be familiar with how university systems work in the United States. A lot of four year universities have this format where students can opt to live on or proximal to campus.

[00:14:46] And so the resident instructors the person who is in charge of the building maintenance, the building programming so like the pizza nights and the team building and the what have you, you manage students staff.

[00:14:57] You manage adults like you manage a, you know, graduate students or full time employees, and you're a crisis responder so you were truly doing everything under the sun. And that was for when I was in education that was a really exciting moment for me because I got to touch so

[00:15:16] different aspects of not only the student journey but you know students who maybe this is their first job ever and got to touch into that leadership and that mentorship and that concept of this is the impact that you make in the world and it doesn't always have to be at that macro level that people

[00:15:32] can't really think about in terms of politician or whatever and we won't even go into that. But at that micro level in terms of the, if you impact just this one person it can have this huge ripple effect and that meant so much to me at the time.

[00:15:46] I feel like there's this, there's this theme that's developing that it's not really and destroy it if I'm wrong but it's kind of what I'm feeling. It's not about being the teacher or the educator in the classroom and saying, here's, here's how you learn math and here's what you need to do step by step.

[00:16:07] It almost feels like you have a history from childhood all the way up, I mean eighth grade whatever we're starting at of guiding people just understanding hearing them, guiding them to the next step but not actually wanting to make them take the next step.

[00:16:24] Just let's get them to a place. Let's hear them and say here's an option for you. Kind of making sense of all of that. I feel like that's kind of been the trajectory throughout the entire career.

[00:16:36] I would totally agree with that and I think this was explained to me a long time ago and I really like the visual that it creates in life there will be opportunities where you lead people by walking in front of them or you empower them and you're walking behind them as that safety net or that person that they can turn back to.

[00:16:54] But the most powerful way to be is to be walking exactly right beside them. And so you're standing shoulder to shoulder and yes you are there with them through it, but you are equals there's no ego there's no hidden fear that they're going to fail and I have to be there.

[00:17:10] You are truly in it and you're able to give that person the time and space to elevate themselves but rise above you to focus on that impact rather than focusing on the players or the perceptions or the what have you and to your point that that is really what guides me in terms of like that north star

[00:17:28] I had mentioned what was early on like I want to do right by people has really evolved for me into a I want to put my head down I want to do great work and I want to do right by people and so it's that marriage between the work ethic that goes into building the foundation of

[00:17:44] that you know people allow you to walk beside them or that you even get to that point yourself where you take that imposter syndrome or that fear that doubt and say shove it you don't you don't you're this is human right I want to validate that but you don't have a place right now in terms of standing between

[00:17:59] me and the impact that I want to make in this world and that's really where you get to that point of walking side by side with people.

[00:18:06] It seems like you like a challenge to to to Ryan's point but also some of the subtext going K to K K to 12 and then pivoting to university doing that for a number of years and then pivoting.

[00:18:25] It seems like there's no moss growing on this stone right because you're going to keep moving keep pushing keep growing etc. Where does that if I have that right where does that come from.

[00:18:37] Well now we're going to go really far back I'll answer this in two parts so part part of it is really how I was raised and I owe so much of it to my parents so like I mentioned before.

[00:18:47] Immigrant parents immigrant background and my dad truly has the most American dream I'm not making this up fact check this after he immigrated from Egypt on literal borrowed money for those of you who might not know that the currency of Egypt is called the

[00:19:01] Gene and I don't actually know what the current conversion ratio is but it's nothing compared to the it's extremely weak right. And so at the time let's say it was 25 to one hypothetically right.

[00:19:15] And so he came with this borrowed money that equated to almost nothing in terms of US dollars.

[00:19:21] And he came with this dream to prove to his family which in Egypt the majority of them had become doctors or you know what even what we in the states we would call really highly reputed fields.

[00:19:31] And he knew that he wanted to own his own business and he wanted to prove that that ambition didn't make him the dumb one or the lazy one or what have you. So he came he bought a car that could not run so he could sleep in it.

[00:19:43] He bought a bike to drive or to ride himself I guess to work and he got three three jobs at three different gas stations and he worked as much over time as he could to make as much money as he could until he bought his own gas station and he

[00:19:58] didn't he didn't stop there. It's not like he said oh the dream is complete.

[00:20:01] He kept doing that and living frugally and wisely and working hard until he was able to end up with 13 gas stations and probably the most remarkable thing about my dad is not even that side of the story though it's it's unheard of like I'm actually

[00:20:15] getting a little choked up as I'm sharing it right now is that he never forgot where he came from and his role in paying it forward.

[00:20:23] And so he would hire people that just immigrated to the states or people that you know needed something and he became like I hate saying it in this context because it's so loaded now but I don't mean this in the same way from way

[00:20:35] back when these people became like family to us we would be invited to their weddings we would be invited to the birth or the birthdays of their children.

[00:20:43] They saw my dad as someone who is really human beyond being this very successful man and I really internalized that in terms of if I'm not growing if I'm not making an impact I'm not using my time correctly.

[00:20:57] And so there there's so much to the ClickUp story it's a fun one I'll give that to you at some point but ClickUp's mission just super resonated with me in terms of the saving saving you a day a week is one of our

[00:21:10] slogans but saving you time in general and then using that time on the things that matter. That's that's my whole bread and butter if I'm not using my time well and that can include decompression and relaxing right we're not robots.

[00:21:22] But if I'm not using it well and that's a part of using your time well right is actually those things. Yeah sorry.

[00:21:29] I'm not going to talk about that in general. But that's all right. That drive you got or that your upbringing with your father when you went to ClickUp and you went through that experience that process and learned about ClickUp that is what sealed it for you.

[00:21:45] All right. I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and developing your workforce is hard recruiting is hard retaining top employees is hard then you've got onboarding payroll benefits time in labor management you need to take care of your workforce

[00:22:00] and you can only do this successfully if you commit to transforming your employee experience. This is where I solve comes in they empower you to be successful we've seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with and this is why we partner with them here at work to find we trust them and you should too check them out at

[00:22:21] www.Isobhtcm.com. Oh my goodness bad touching harassment sex violence fraud threats all things that could have been avoided if you had Fama stop hiring dangerous people Fama.io.

[00:22:45] So it sealed it for me and so the I'm a believer personally that you know things happen for a reason or life works in mysterious ways even if you don't recognize it like I'll fully acknowledge that things will happen and it really sucks and it's painful and I'm not telling people to or myself even to like blindly just say like this is fine you know like there's

[00:23:03] the human grief or processing that happens but it like it was serendipity what happened with ClickUp so I was still working at the university level at the time. This would have been in 2017-2018 let's say and ClickUp was founded in 2017 like I was saying and so very early on in its life cycle that's all I'll say on this reported call and I was volunteering at this nonprofit that

[00:23:30] they were called Rumi so they were making free micro learning courses for learners around the globe. I thought the mission was really cool and I wanted to help and all of that and at the same time I wanted to expose myself more to the

[00:23:41] edtech tech world I was curious I was itching for to learn more and for growth to both of your points and once I was there for around six months or so I got I got bold enough to say

[00:23:51] why are we using ClickUp exactly like this is such a new player what drew you to them and so they told me hey you know that the CEO the COO the

[00:24:02] I remember the title was at the time but like the chief marketing officer they respond personally to our emails they've given us a steal of a deal because they believe in the work that we're doing they ask for our feedback they implemented as real features and they make us feel seen they make us feel like we're making an impact in the world and I'm

[00:24:21] I knew in that moment as cheesy as this sounds a promises true story I knew in that moment that if I ever got bold enough to leave education and move into tech. I wanted to find somewhere that made you know people feel like ClickUp made those people feel

[00:24:37] and so fast forward 2020 it's COVID we're all a little aimless I had some personal stuff going on and I thought okay I'm gonna make the jump and it again with serendipity that I thought of ClickUp itself and I thought let me see if they're hiring let me see if they're you know they're taking people on and and like I was mentioning

[00:24:55] towards the top of this call they didn't have a lot of titling or definition and the rules yet the wrong formal departments and so I was a direct chaotic mode. Yeah, but you said that that was purposeful like that that was not by the by accident. Yeah, yeah, there there's

[00:25:14] there's the sense of innovation and growing and letting people build that was part of the ethos of ClickUp still is but very much in the earlier days of ClickUp. But I was a director equivalent in education at the time and so I have very kind friends and family I don't want to say that they were mean to me about this in any way shape

[00:25:32] or form but it was this really big like are you sure like this that you work so hard exactly you've worked so hard what are you doing you're starting over you've you've wasted time or you're wasting time more or less because so salient to me that concept.

[00:25:48] And I just knew like, I'm going to regret not not trying this more than staying and trying to progress or impact where I was and I'm so glad I did because that led to so much personal growth for me but also being able to, for lack of a better way like leave your fingerprints on such a growing you know to both of your points earlier really cool really innovative company and space that's so special from both a micro and a macro level.

[00:26:18] And I have the ability to meet really cool people learn really cool people talk to our customers. I'm not on a customer facing team anymore but I'm still very much a go to internally when people you know want me to hop on a call with a customer or share a use case that I personally developed years ago or I built on the spot the night before for that customer.

[00:26:38] Like I love that because I love getting to know people and just truly listening. Where are they what do they need what can I learn from them and it opens it opens you up to so much beauty in the world.

[00:26:51] I love this I want to go back to your dad for just one second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did he meet your mom here or did they met in the States. Yeah, in the states is parallel to that is is there a strong Egyptian community.

[00:27:06] In for you. I would say Los Angeles does have a by relativity standpoint a larger Egyptian community relatively small that most of the times when folks immigrate from the states they you know settle into the the Coptic church if that is the religion that you end up practicing and it becomes the the social club of meeting Egyptians and so that's how they were able to make networks and find people beyond through my dad's work and hiring people in those

[00:27:36] those capacities. Oh yeah, I could so so so following the story of your father have you so you've seen him grow a business you've seen him which I think is a phenomenal story by the way the fact that he bought a car to sleep and

[00:27:53] and bought a bike to get to work is to reach out. I don't even know that I would think about like why would I get a car that that's an amazing story and I'm going to remember that forever now that's just ingrained in me to step a process out that way.

[00:28:10] Have you ever had the urge to jump into entrepreneurship or when you saw or maybe he drove your way from it.

[00:28:21] Click up what's that like you know I'm not an entrepreneur but this this is where my father would have been or this is the next best thing for me I kind of I feel like there's a connection there.

[00:28:33] Yeah, you know candidly I it's involved with me over the years when I was younger. I did not want to be an entrepreneur I just didn't see the impact in the same way that I see it now as an adult. Now I click up don't don't put me on record here.

[00:28:51] I know I'm not.

[00:28:55] And then he has left the chat. No, I think about entrepreneurship still to this day and I've actually dabbled. I've probably given you the impression at this point that I like to stay busy I always like to be learning I like to be doing many things so

[00:29:07] And still a certified life coach I don't I don't practice as much anymore but I used to have my own side hustle and business in regards to that.

[00:29:15] I, this is another COVID story I was bored truly one day and so I got my license to sell life insurance to folks gave me very gave me a help anyone anymore but it gave me you know an even deeper empathy for sellers but also customers in terms of what they're thinking about what they need and so

[00:29:37] touching on those things and also the natural you know evolutions that come with age and when you're reflecting about impact and time and life and what's next.

[00:29:46] I'm not opposed to stepping out as an entrepreneur, you know starting a business whatever that might be, but my, my whole thing is move quickly but don't rush. And so for me where I'm at right now.

[00:29:58] I don't have that pull to leave and start something of my own I can tell it's there. I can tell the seed is starting to blossom right but the time doesn't doesn't feel right and I'm going to let that happen naturally when it does.

[00:30:11] I love it. Okay, a couple questions one is advice you give your, your younger self so now all of this, all this experience you've accumulated. What would you tell your so let's say 18 year old so.

[00:30:26] Yeah, I actually haven't gotten asked this question in a while but fun fact I won a scholarship award in college for the way that I answered this question so let's see. Fair question that is prescripted. No, I just memorized is what it is.

[00:30:43] And generally what it is though is be the person you needed.

[00:30:47] That that's how I would respond to it so for me, again, I cannot underscore enough, I have phenomenal parents, they are my role models to this day again I'm getting a little choked up as I think about it.

[00:30:57] And at the same time, there is the natural tug and pull that comes with when we're not perfect human beings aren't perfect. And so going back to that sense of seeing people sitting with them, the acceptance or awareness of mental illness and the role that

[00:31:13] you have with family or friends or even, you know oneself. That's something that I had to learn by the opposite, or, you know, by, I don't know how to frame this almost like what I wanted to do instead of what I was seeing.

[00:31:29] And so it's just understanding that people are complex and what you learn is complex I don't think that we exist in this. This is good this is bad type of a situation with people with circumstances will have you.

[00:31:42] It's what you make of those circumstances or circumstances or choices or the way that you think. And I think it's telling myself that it's okay, it's okay to feel conflicted or it's okay to, you know, make a choice that is totally deviating from the choice

[00:31:58] that you make before, as long as you're able to take a step forward one step doesn't matter what direction it's in. It doesn't matter if it's a small step or a big step if you're able to keep that movement and you're the one keeping that sense of control and agency you're going to unlock any path for yourself.

[00:32:15] Let's start on the complexity side you mentioned that word a couple of times.

[00:32:21] And a lot of what you've done throughout your career has been taking complex situations whether you were an RD, or in the administration somewhere or even now today what you're doing and kind of over simplifying things for people.

[00:32:37] I've been kind of walking with them along that path for someone that is maybe taking a similar journey or is listening that says, I like to solve the problem of complexity, regardless of what it is.

[00:32:53] What would your advice be them on how to approach complexity and then how to translate that to other people.

[00:32:59] Yeah, that's a great question and I totally agree. I think that's one of my superpowers and it's something that I'm proud about that I've been able to translate. So there are a few different parts to this. I think one of them is recognizing the role that expertise fits in when it comes to the problem.

[00:33:44] It doesn't matter where you are unsuccessful, right unless maybe you're a doctor right I do want my doctor to know what they're doing when there's a lot of letters behind my doctor turns out. Right. I want them to be pretty skilled.

[00:33:56] But when you're solving a problem regardless of what industry you're in there's this mix of understanding hey I have expertise and that expertise exists for a reason, but it's being able to leverage that expertise strategically and skillfully and that's really where it ties into that

[00:34:11] classification. And so when you think about the audience or the person you're trying to convince or a customer you're trying to sell to or whatever your use case is, it's thinking about, well what's in it for them, because what's in it for me doesn't matter anymore that's

[00:34:25] not important if that motivates you great you know you found your motivation but the true problem that you're solving is how can I make this better for the audience that I'm trying to reach. How can I convey to them the value and impact, especially if I need

[00:34:38] to get my hand on the line and buy in along the way. And Ryan to your point and observation, I totally agree education has a really good job even though they don't instill you in that explicit understanding of making complex things simpler and being able to tell

[00:34:53] people. This is the amount of work required. Yes, but here's what you stand to gain and this is what's needed and this is how we can get there and really piece melling it out.

[00:35:03] So you brought up credentialing and experience. I want to get your take on skills in the way that maybe you looked at skills, you know, 10 years ago in a way that you're

[00:35:22] look at skills now. Yeah. And even from a company perspective, how are you all how? Yeah, again, you're, you're just your take on skills is important to me and how you're rethinking skills as opposed to what you thought of as a

[00:35:37] years ago. Yeah, I'll start by saying that skills were are exist to be developed and they exist to grow. And so if I'm thinking back on where I started where it was then this very education formal for lack of a

[00:35:53] better word paper type of skill developing, I had a very myopic view in terms of you need x degree or x certification or this is how you get exposure to XYZ field and so it was that same principle where you're

[00:36:11] can grow and you know, you can develop and you know, go in different directions. But it had this very you know you need to be guided in a certain way to receive those skills and unfortunately, especially in this country there are a lot of cost

[00:36:26] barriers that come with that type of approach to skill development. And so when I started to get that itch of, hey, I don't need to be an education to make this impact or there are ways that I can even develop that are not tied to a university

[00:36:40] degree like becoming a consultant or volunteering at that nonprofit that I was mentioning to you. I began to realize that skill development is all about the opportunities you pursue, and what you do with those opportunities that you are given. And I think the first element is more of a

[00:37:26] question is how do you choose to apply your time and your energy and how you solve the problem do you use the resources around you. Do you do you give up in the face of it right. That's really where skills develop so much, and I hate to call it on the job

[00:37:39] learning because that has its own connotation now too, but it there's really an underutilized psychology around what you can do with the opportunities that you are given, rather than solely looking at skill development is something that happens after

[00:37:53] work or something you have to pursue on the side. You can, but you don't have to and I firmly firmly believe that skills can be developed no matter where you are if you put the intentionality in it.

[00:38:03] How does someone build mentorship or or surround himself with strong mentors like yourself for example, where you know I come out of school. Maybe I've got five years 10 to 15 years of experience doesn't matter. I have a whole bunch of skills that I've accumulated, but I don't know how to apply them

[00:38:23] or grow them without institutionally going back to school to learn. So yeah, but it's very exactly but I don't know how to apply it and then transfer it like you said teachers can become programs or program program. Program managers. Yeah, I've not a few teachers.

[00:38:45] So how does somebody build that circle of trust right where they can learn to transfer their skills and kind of be guided into into that next step in their career.

[00:38:58] Yeah, totally we actually made a joke around this before we we kicked up the recording of this podcast but I'm not a huge fan of the networking that you often hear about in the industry.

[00:39:08] It's going to happen. It's going to happen over time but my biggest piece of advice and how I've found the mentors especially I didn't I didn't know anyone in tech, meaningfully before I transitioned.

[00:39:18] I've made that path for myself and I made those relationships and I did it in two main ways. One was I saw the application points and so I brought it up before but I found this nonprofit.

[00:39:29] It was that middle ground between the skills that I currently had or the skills that I needed to modify slightly or you know within the realm of possibility self driven possibility and skills that I never been exposed to or a background that I had never been exposed to and, you know, marrying those two

[00:39:45] together and thinking what impact can I make how can I learn from people and candidly people love talking about themselves so you'll you'll never have a problem when you ask someone about themselves if you already have that human connection.

[00:39:57] And so oftentimes when people think of networking and the like grimacy way of networking, it's cold calling in the same way that sellers might cold call or like I had to call call when I was selling life insurance briefly right.

[00:40:09] And it's that that lack of human connection that is maybe harder for some of us than others that makes it so icky and grimacing because you feel like it's performative or you feel like you're going through the motions.

[00:40:21] And that's why it never really stood out to me but if you're able to find commonality with people whether it's commonality and the impact you want to make or commonality in developing and honing your skills.

[00:40:32] And so they're not going to stop talking to you and once you get into that habit of finding those points of application or impact. It multiplies so for me, I have a very simple serendipitous path relative to maybe other people's

[00:40:45] experience but I truly would have never found click up. I mean, who knows but I probably would have never found click up had I not volunteered at that nonprofit.

[00:40:54] I was comfortable enough with the people that I was working alongside to ask what what the heck is up with this click up thing you know and that led me to where I am today and that can happen with anyone anything any industry.

[00:41:06] What one quick follow up to that. Are you a bigger believer in intent learning with intent or just go into it and let's see what happens and I mean I feel like you've done this with intent and you've made choices based on this.

[00:41:25] But I think some people struggle with that I've struggled with it. Do I just do it just to do it or I can get it out. I think definitely shows with it.

[00:41:35] It's a hard question. I actually haven't, I haven't thought about it as being mutually exclusive. So I might need to think on this one that my gut instinct the question that you're posing I don't know if either of you are familiar with Amy polar who I love big parks and

[00:41:49] in her book I think it's yes please if I'm remembering correctly. She talks about there are going to be opportunities in your life where you're going to be thrown a challenge or going to be thrown an opportunity and you're going to have that initial sense of fear or doubt or

[00:42:04] challenge and oftentimes not all the time but oftentimes the response to have is yes please there's also some like improv techniques in terms of a problem and instead of saying this is actually really big for anyone who's transitioning fields and it's something that I

[00:42:19] I attribute a lot of my success to you rather than saying no to anyone point blank which in HR specifically, you can very quickly become the no police and a lot of people's perceptions. The way that you avoid that is not by saying yes to things that you

[00:42:34] should be saying yes to right, but you begin to adopt this mindset of Yes I hear you and here's a better way that we can accomplish it and you're truly positioning yourself at that as that strategic strategic stakeholder who is listening to what they have to say

[00:42:49] and so going back to your question Ryan. I don't this might be a cop out answer but I feel like it's a little bit of both honestly there are going to be opportunities in life that you would have never guessed or anticipated and saying yes is a choice you

[00:43:04] make and it's often one that will open a lot of doors, but if you're saying yes to things willy nilly without thinking about it. You might be wandering aimlessly so I might make my medium answer might be a little bit of both that as you're making those, you know, yes please

[00:43:22] these steps stop and evaluate and ask is this choice contributing to my north star if it's not that's okay you just have to make a different choice.

[00:43:31] Right, drops might walks off stage. Maybe thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show. You're very well and educating us and educating our audience. It's been a privilege.

[00:43:44] It's been a pleasure and I did not anticipate telling my dad or my family stories listening and that's what we do. That's what we do. We draw it out. That's our job. Thank you. Seriously, thank you for coming on the show.