True Payroll Crimes: From Ghost Employees To Luxury Cars

[00:00:23] Welcome to our podcast, Its About Payroll.

[00:00:34] We're your hosts, Brian Escobar and Walter William Duncan III.

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[00:01:30] Again, this webinar is next Tuesday, October 29th at 2 p.m. Eastern Time.

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[00:01:43] Let's go!

[00:01:44] Welcome back folks.

[00:01:46] This is another episode of It's About Payroll.

[00:01:50] It's About Your Paycheck.

[00:01:52] And today we're covering a always classic fun topic, true payroll crimes.

[00:01:59] But before we get into it, what's going on, Walt?

[00:02:02] What's going on, my brother?

[00:02:04] I'm good.

[00:02:06] I'm feeling good.

[00:02:08] I'm motivated and relaxed out there a little bit of PTO.

[00:02:11] Oh, nice.

[00:02:13] That's dope.

[00:02:14] All good, man.

[00:02:14] How about you?

[00:02:16] I'm good.

[00:02:17] Yeah, yeah, grind.

[00:02:18] This was something about grind, pushing through, reading something like,

[00:02:24] I don't know.

[00:02:25] You just got to keep grinding.

[00:02:26] That was the answer.

[00:02:27] Keep going.

[00:02:28] Keep, like we say, right?

[00:02:30] Keep learning, keep growing, keep going.

[00:02:32] Most importantly.

[00:02:33] Yes.

[00:02:33] Keep going.

[00:02:35] Let go of the rule.

[00:02:36] Don't let go of the rule.

[00:02:38] That's a good one.

[00:02:39] I kind of think, maybe just think about sharks.

[00:02:42] But they say sharks have to always stay swimming.

[00:02:45] Is that true?

[00:02:45] I wonder though.

[00:02:46] They don't, they just sleep swimming.

[00:02:48] I have no idea.

[00:02:48] You've got to ask somebody who's smart.

[00:02:51] What about that?

[00:02:52] Sure.

[00:02:52] Enough.

[00:02:53] You would think with all the shark week stuff that goes on.

[00:02:57] For a second there, I thought you were going into the song, baby shark or something

[00:03:00] like that.

[00:03:01] Oh my gosh.

[00:03:02] No.

[00:03:03] Oh gosh.

[00:03:04] No, bro.

[00:03:04] Don't start with that.

[00:03:05] That stuff stick, that thing, that song is what they call it.

[00:03:08] The earworm sticks in your head.

[00:03:10] It was just.

[00:03:11] Yeah.

[00:03:12] They killed it.

[00:03:13] Whoever started that stuff killed it.

[00:03:15] I'm going to tell them myself a little bit here.

[00:03:17] It's part of the inner kid in me, even though I'm in my forties now.

[00:03:21] But a song that stays in my head is from the Canto.

[00:03:25] We don't talk about Bruno.

[00:03:26] Oh, heck yeah.

[00:03:27] I don't know why.

[00:03:28] That transcended ages, I think.

[00:03:33] Right?

[00:03:33] Because adults.

[00:03:34] Another, it was an earworm.

[00:03:35] And I think people just use it as, Hey, we don't talk about that.

[00:03:39] Forget it.

[00:03:39] They killed it with that.

[00:03:40] Yeah.

[00:03:41] They killed it with that.

[00:03:42] Word up.

[00:03:43] All right, man.

[00:03:44] So let's get into it with the current events.

[00:03:47] Let's do it.

[00:03:47] We're going to get into it with the news updates.

[00:03:48] So definitely want to send out our condolences and, you know, prayers and best wishes to everyone

[00:03:54] that was impacted by the recent storms, hurricane Milton and hurricane Helene.

[00:04:01] Yep.

[00:04:01] Definitely want to do what we can.

[00:04:03] And I encourage you, we encourage you to donate help if possible.

[00:04:07] Let's do our part to try to make sure that we're doing the best we can for our fellow Americans

[00:04:11] who are impacted by this and suffered great loss.

[00:04:15] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:16] Yeah.

[00:04:17] Yeah.

[00:04:18] And then I wanted to give an update on the port strike.

[00:04:20] I'm sure some of you already are aware of this.

[00:04:22] That strike was supposed to happen, but the people that worked at the port decided to suspend

[00:04:26] the strike until January, 2025 because they didn't want to impact the economy.

[00:04:31] So good on them for doing that.

[00:04:34] I thought they actually struck for a struck and strike.

[00:04:37] I thought it went on for a couple of days.

[00:04:38] Okay.

[00:04:39] They decided to suspend it because they didn't want to have any impact for the fellow Americans.

[00:04:46] Okay.

[00:04:47] And they wanted to give up, they wanted to give themselves some more time to bargain between

[00:04:50] whenever they suspended it until January, 2025.

[00:04:54] Okay.

[00:04:56] All right.

[00:04:57] Yeah.

[00:04:58] And then, hey, the election's coming up.

[00:05:00] It's as a citizen of America, it's your right to vote.

[00:05:05] I'm not telling you what to do, but get out there and vote, pack the election coming up

[00:05:09] or whatever, if you want to.

[00:05:11] But look, if you don't ever have it, you don't like anybody, then whatever.

[00:05:15] But now it's time to write.

[00:05:17] I feel like I had really years ago.

[00:05:21] Was it the year Obama was?

[00:05:25] Maybe right before that I had advocated.

[00:05:27] I had done the same thing.

[00:05:28] Like it was election year.

[00:05:29] I was like, Hey, go out there and vote.

[00:05:30] Go out there and vote.

[00:05:31] Get blah, blah, blah.

[00:05:32] And one of my coworkers at the time, this is years ago.

[00:05:34] I'm like, oh gosh, 10, 10, 15 years.

[00:05:37] Who knows?

[00:05:37] And they were like, I don't vote.

[00:05:39] I was like, then you part of the problem.

[00:05:41] Went in on them.

[00:05:42] And, and it was crazy.

[00:05:44] Cause another coworker was like, yo, I heard you waited on this one.

[00:05:49] And they felt the way.

[00:05:50] And I was like, oh, if you're not part of the solution, you part of the problem.

[00:05:55] That's the way the math works.

[00:05:56] You know what I mean?

[00:05:58] To the extent that it's true.

[00:06:00] Cause there's all this speculation.

[00:06:02] I just heard some, some news clip that was saying it's not really the popular vote.

[00:06:07] It's the electoral, not, no, it's facts, right?

[00:06:10] It's not our popular vote.

[00:06:11] It's the electoral vote that, but if I, I don't, and that's the thing I got to get smart around it.

[00:06:18] Cause I feel like, but the electoral vote is based on the popular vote, but I don't know.

[00:06:24] I don't know enough about it.

[00:06:25] Yeah.

[00:06:25] So I'm hoping that the vote means something, even if you don't like the two that are there, there are always other candidates on there.

[00:06:33] And either you like one more than the other and you pull the vote away from that part.

[00:06:38] Right.

[00:06:39] Or you just vote for somebody else on neither one of them gets to vote, but nobody else gets to vote.

[00:06:45] I don't know, man.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:46] I don't know.

[00:06:47] Hey, but you might have a, all that said, you might have an impact.

[00:06:51] The upcoming election must've wasn't Brian was saying.

[00:06:54] So if you're like, if you decide to do it, go ahead.

[00:06:57] Now's the time to register, get out there so you can vote.

[00:07:00] With that being said, I'll move on to the short.

[00:07:02] I wanted to do an honorable mention because this is a true payroll crime story.

[00:07:07] So I wanted to do an honorable, honorable mention for it.

[00:07:10] Just a quick story out of New Orleans.

[00:07:13] There was a former payroll manager that was the work at a law firm in New Orleans.

[00:07:20] And she was guilty of wire fraud from 2017 to 2023.

[00:07:25] She stole over $2.5 million.

[00:07:30] What?

[00:07:31] $2.5 million.

[00:07:32] And so she would, what she would do is she would submit false electronic payroll authorizations.

[00:07:38] Uh, to an out of state processing company and basically put it into her account.

[00:07:43] And so the only reason that she got caught is because she went on vacation.

[00:07:47] If someone had to cover her for her work.

[00:07:50] Hmm.

[00:07:52] It's the only reason she got caught.

[00:07:53] She's not smart.

[00:07:54] Cause you leave that.

[00:07:55] How would you forget?

[00:07:56] Wait, Oh crap.

[00:07:57] You know what?

[00:07:58] And that's a perfect example.

[00:07:59] We have been getting into it more.

[00:08:01] Yeah.

[00:08:02] Oh man.

[00:08:03] Bro.

[00:08:03] If you read the story, man, she said that she started, like she went big.

[00:08:08] From the first time she started taking $10,000 over $10,000 per check.

[00:08:13] Dang.

[00:08:14] Yeah.

[00:08:14] And then later increased the amount through the pandemic.

[00:08:18] Wow.

[00:08:20] Yeah.

[00:08:21] Yeah.

[00:08:21] Cause you said 2.5 million.

[00:08:23] See the, and that's the thing I always get so curious on the followup.

[00:08:26] Did she get indicted?

[00:08:28] Is she doing time?

[00:08:29] Did she get convicted?

[00:08:30] She pled guilty.

[00:08:31] She was just sentenced.

[00:08:32] I could not find how much, what the sentence was.

[00:08:35] She was just sentenced in September this year.

[00:08:39] And she said the maximum sentence is up to 20 years in prison.

[00:08:43] She ain't getting into 20 years.

[00:08:44] But she was ordered to pay it all back.

[00:08:47] In restitution.

[00:08:48] Yeah.

[00:08:51] I don't think the, I don't think the, what is it?

[00:08:53] The punishment is enough in these cases.

[00:08:57] We've seen some with 18 months, two years, cause it's a nonviolent crime.

[00:09:03] And then you figure.

[00:09:05] Folks, by no means am I encouraging this behavior.

[00:09:10] By no means you will get caught.

[00:09:13] No.

[00:09:13] Like you can't be like, oh, Ryan said you can get away with this.

[00:09:16] And then it's no problem.

[00:09:17] No.

[00:09:18] I'm just pointing out.

[00:09:20] Our new podcast is how to get away.

[00:09:25] Yes.

[00:09:28] No doubt.

[00:09:30] No, gosh.

[00:09:32] Yeah.

[00:09:32] Shoot.

[00:09:32] After they make shows how to get away with murder.

[00:09:35] But no, I just don't think.

[00:09:37] Cause if you think about it, if she got like two years, even three years, but she has still

[00:09:41] some of the money or if she just blew it, then yeah.

[00:09:45] The two years is fine.

[00:09:47] Yeah.

[00:09:47] They said that she spent cars.

[00:09:50] She bought eight cars with it.

[00:09:52] Like eight cars.

[00:09:55] Yeah.

[00:09:56] That's still not $2.5 million.

[00:09:58] Unless they were all Lamborghinis, all Ferrari.

[00:10:01] You know what I mean?

[00:10:02] All Ferraris.

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:02] Cause then yeah, all the cars go back.

[00:10:04] But I don't know.

[00:10:08] It's just, I guess my point is if you actually saved, invested and made some other winnings

[00:10:15] and getting money, you put a bag in the ground of it somewhere, you come out in two, three

[00:10:20] years, you still, money's still there.

[00:10:21] And then the restitution has to be paid back.

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:24] But if you ain't got the money, the government is going to put you on a payment plan.

[00:10:27] They're going to garnish your wages or what, you know what I'm saying?

[00:10:29] All right.

[00:10:29] But if I have a million in buried in my backyard, still I'm gonna come out and be all right.

[00:10:35] I don't know.

[00:10:36] I don't know.

[00:10:36] It's not worth it for me.

[00:10:38] Let's get, let's get, that's great.

[00:10:40] I know people who went to prison.

[00:10:42] I ain't trying to go to prison.

[00:10:43] Yep.

[00:10:43] So there's no way.

[00:10:47] No.

[00:10:48] Yeah.

[00:10:50] There's nobody that I know that's been to prison that says, yeah, I'll go back.

[00:10:55] Like, no, ain't nobody.

[00:10:57] It was definitely worth it.

[00:10:58] It was worth it.

[00:10:59] Yeah.

[00:11:00] No problem.

[00:11:01] No, I get it.

[00:11:02] I get it.

[00:11:02] I get it, man.

[00:11:03] All right.

[00:11:03] So what do you got?

[00:11:04] Any who I got.

[00:11:06] So, you know how we talk about, um, uh, if only one that like, this is the wrong thinking

[00:11:14] about some employees is like, Hey, if you're the only one that knows how to do a job, some

[00:11:19] folks thinks it's job security.

[00:11:21] Right.

[00:11:21] Harvard business review dropped the article that kind of supports the psychology around

[00:11:27] why that is the case.

[00:11:29] And they, it, the, yeah, it's, they talk about why folks like some people think some employees.

[00:11:38] That hold secrets feel like they have a really big status at the job.

[00:11:44] Like they, it drives how important they feel at work because they have a secret, but they

[00:11:50] do call out.

[00:11:51] If they think the secret is like BS, then it's the opposite feeling.

[00:11:57] So, but all that to say that for me, it drives that only need, like we run into it everywhere

[00:12:04] you work.

[00:12:05] There's at least one person in there that, you know, that doesn't want to share what

[00:12:09] they know they think is a secret.

[00:12:11] And then I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm valuable because I'm the only one that knows how to do this.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:16] And it's not true.

[00:12:17] That is just not true because as a leader, I'm trying to change that.

[00:12:22] Like I can't have anybody in my team and they're the only one that knows how to do things.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:28] Even my job, I'm not trying to be the only one that knows how to do what I do.

[00:12:32] I actively share how I do things and how, what makes me good at this job.

[00:12:38] I think, I think that's a part of business continuity.

[00:12:40] Yeah.

[00:12:40] You know, right.

[00:12:41] Just to get something happened with you or.

[00:12:44] See, but you speak it from that leader mentality.

[00:12:46] You're like, wait, yeah, I agree.

[00:12:48] Of course you agree.

[00:12:49] You're a leader, but some frontline workers.

[00:12:52] Don't always feel that way.

[00:12:54] Cause they feel like job security and, and the people even throw it around as a joke.

[00:12:58] And I'm like, it's, you know, I'm, I don't think I laugh at all when they have, I'm like,

[00:13:04] but yeah.

[00:13:06] So anyway, the article just supports like that psychology around why secrets drive the way employees feel about things.

[00:13:14] And if you've got a good secret, that is I'm important.

[00:13:17] I'm holding these secrets.

[00:13:18] That's so just, um, yeah, exactly.

[00:13:20] For, for those of us in payroll HR, look, I guess there's a lot of jobs that it's just, it's part for the course.

[00:13:26] It's normal.

[00:13:27] You should be, if you're in a trusted situation, you should be trusted.

[00:13:30] It's not something special.

[00:13:32] Yeah.

[00:13:32] You should be able to be trusted in your whole world.

[00:13:36] Like in your whole life, people should be able to trust you.

[00:13:38] Now I don't say that to say, oh, you can't have secrets.

[00:13:42] Oh, of course.

[00:13:43] Human nature, privacy things.

[00:13:45] There are things that you hold close.

[00:13:48] Hey, it's Bob Pulver host Q podcast.

[00:13:51] Human centric, AI, AI driven transformation, hiring for skills of potential dynamic workforce ecosystems, responsible innovation.

[00:14:00] These are some of the themes my expert guests and I chat about, and we certainly geek out on the details.

[00:14:05] Nothing too technical.

[00:14:07] I hope you check it out.

[00:14:09] But it doesn't mean that it's a secret is, Hey, that's private is very different than secrets.

[00:14:15] You know what I mean?

[00:14:16] Any who?

[00:14:17] Yeah.

[00:14:18] I thought it was a good article.

[00:14:19] Peep that.

[00:14:19] Check that out folks.

[00:14:21] Yeah.

[00:14:22] Great stuff, Brian.

[00:14:24] Yeah, man.

[00:14:24] Likewise, bro.

[00:14:26] Let's pay the bills.

[00:14:27] Sir.

[00:14:27] Let's get, let's pay the bills.

[00:14:29] Shout out to time track go.

[00:14:31] Time track go has introduced an innovative new feature designed to simplify time tracking for both exempt and non exempt employees.

[00:14:41] This feature aligns with the recent changes in fair labor standard act for salaried employees by automatically calculating standard 40 hour work weeks and accurately determining overtime when necessary.

[00:14:55] Time track go ensures precise employee time while maintaining accurate PTO balances.

[00:15:01] Additionally, the system can identify instances where non exempt employees may not have reached that 40 hour threshold.

[00:15:10] To learn more, please contact contact.

[00:15:13] Do you contact time track go at 888-321-9922 or visit www.time track go.com.

[00:15:25] That's T I M T T R A K go.com.

[00:15:29] Let's go.

[00:15:31] Let's go.

[00:15:32] Let's go.

[00:15:33] Let's go get paid.

[00:15:34] Sir.

[00:15:34] That's what time track go means.

[00:15:35] Is it paid?

[00:15:37] Yeah, for real.

[00:15:38] Right.

[00:15:39] Do your time.

[00:15:40] So you can get paid.

[00:15:41] Yep.

[00:15:42] That's what I'm saying.

[00:15:43] I love the, I love it's like trending.

[00:15:45] Brittany fur puts, has put a few of them out where like people are making videos and stuff about, finish your time sheets, submit your time sheets, submit your time sheets, submit your time sheets, submit your time sheets, submit your time sheets.

[00:15:54] And like people are just holding.

[00:15:56] The assumption is like, it's the payroll person.

[00:15:58] Yeah.

[00:15:58] Hopping up at work with a sign.

[00:16:00] Yeah.

[00:16:00] Oh, shout out to Brittany anyway, because she's the one who told us about this story that we're going to cover anyway for true payroll.

[00:16:07] Yes.

[00:16:07] But she big time enough.

[00:16:09] So she ain't got time to come do it with us.

[00:16:11] Cause I was like, Hey, you should come in beyond the show with this one.

[00:16:14] But yes, Brittany, we're covering it.

[00:16:16] Um, we didn't get the investigative part in, but you know, the RPI is on vacation.

[00:16:23] Yes.

[00:16:26] All right.

[00:16:27] Uh, so Walt is going to share with us some of these main points from this, uh, true crime.

[00:16:33] Yeah.

[00:16:33] We're going to, I'm going to cover some key takeaways for the employees, uh, that may be thinking about this.

[00:16:40] Hey, look, because look, I will, no, it's a real thing.

[00:16:44] Temptation is real.

[00:16:45] When you believe in life.

[00:16:46] Yeah.

[00:16:47] Absolutely right.

[00:16:48] And it happens in different, um, arenas and happens in different phases of life.

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:56] It could be in a position in life.

[00:16:57] Like you've gone through a divorce.

[00:16:59] You're a single parent.

[00:17:01] And you're struggling as hell.

[00:17:03] Yep.

[00:17:03] And look, this article that we're talking about is, it involves an employee, a former employee who was a general manager at Wendy's in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

[00:17:14] She was charged with a wage theft by creating ghost employees.

[00:17:19] She created that.

[00:17:20] Oh, good old ghost employee.

[00:17:21] Ghost employee and stole nearly $20,000 over the course of the year.

[00:17:25] The ghost employee was named William Bright, who was an actual person.

[00:17:30] Believe it or not.

[00:17:31] Oh, someone.

[00:17:32] Yes.

[00:17:32] When you read the article, it was somebody that she actually knew, but he wasn't involved in it.

[00:17:37] He had no, apparently he's saying that he had no knowledge of this employee, this employee, former employee at Wendy's.

[00:17:43] Linda Johnson.

[00:17:44] She, uh, was responsible for, um, the payroll and logged the time for 128 shifts that were never worked for this ghost employee.

[00:17:54] The wages totaled a little over under $20,000.

[00:17:59] So $19,898.

[00:18:01] And were 20 grand.

[00:18:03] Yeah.

[00:18:03] And were deposited directly into her cash app account.

[00:18:07] After suspicions from other employees led to an investigation, Josh Johnson admitted to the scheme, claiming she had used the stolen money to take care of her children.

[00:18:19] It wasn't a lot of money either, bro.

[00:18:21] You think about it.

[00:18:22] I know.

[00:18:23] Think about it.

[00:18:24] The only reason why I say that is over time.

[00:18:26] Did they give the timeframe on?

[00:18:28] It was over the course of a year.

[00:18:29] It was like I said, over the course of a year.

[00:18:32] Think about that.

[00:18:33] 20, $20,000 over a year is like another part-time paycheck basically.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:38] I'm not condoning the, the action, but 20,000, well, at one time would have been, is a little bit more desirable where I would tend to believe her.

[00:18:48] She's, yep.

[00:18:48] She had kids to take care of and it does not justify the theft.

[00:18:53] So the time, the timeframe was from June, 2021 to May, 2022.

[00:18:58] What did you say in your research?

[00:19:01] 18 months.

[00:19:02] 18 months.

[00:19:02] 18 months, man.

[00:19:03] 18 months.

[00:19:04] So basically folks, we'll discover it and while we do all these true crime stuff, right?

[00:19:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:09] That's like the average that these cases go undiscovered.

[00:19:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:15] Where it could go as long as 18 months.

[00:19:17] I think we've got found stuff that's gone longer.

[00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:20] But you talking about averages.

[00:19:22] The one I mentioned earlier was from 2017 till 2023.

[00:19:26] Oh, she got 2.5 million.

[00:19:28] Yeah.

[00:19:28] She was doing it right.

[00:19:29] You gonna do it.

[00:19:30] If you're gonna do something wrong, you might as well do it right.

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:34] But I'm sorry for this.

[00:19:36] This person, Linda Johnson for doing for this.

[00:19:38] Cause so did they talk about like conviction or anything like that about how much time she got?

[00:19:43] No, I didn't see that yet.

[00:19:44] I know that she's due to be sentenced.

[00:19:46] I know she was charged in 2023.

[00:19:48] She turned herself in on August of 2023 as well.

[00:19:52] And she was released on bail for $2,500 on secure bail.

[00:19:57] So I still, I think she's still waiting to be sentenced possibly.

[00:20:01] If not, I'll give an update if I can find out more.

[00:20:04] Look, she, it was wrong.

[00:20:05] She shouldn't, she should have to pay her dues, but she didn't get rich off this.

[00:20:10] Like she didn't, it wasn't life-changing money.

[00:20:12] Well, for her, it was.

[00:20:15] Otherwise the life-changing.

[00:20:17] Sure.

[00:20:18] Sure.

[00:20:19] Yep.

[00:20:19] Agreed.

[00:20:20] Agreed.

[00:20:20] Yeah.

[00:20:21] Yeah.

[00:20:22] You know what I'm saying?

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:23] And look, so in my, in my head of somebody that was trusted in the, and what, and what did we find?

[00:20:28] What did we find out?

[00:20:29] Some of those TFOs.

[00:20:31] Some of the, those high-rated officials in leadership that do this a lot of times.

[00:20:37] It's a payroll manager is this, or a payroll person that is unsupervised.

[00:20:43] Yes.

[00:20:43] If you're not checking your super, your payroll person and ghost employee, for those who don't

[00:20:49] know is it just as it implies it's an employee that's a ghost.

[00:20:54] It doesn't exist, not a real person.

[00:20:56] Even though this was a real person in life.

[00:20:59] It, that, that, that wasn't a real employee to Wendy's.

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:03] You know what I'm saying?

[00:21:04] Yeah.

[00:21:04] But all, although we have seen it where they do use real employees that are terminated

[00:21:11] or something like that.

[00:21:13] Either way, it's a ghosting type of situation where you're paying money to somebody who's

[00:21:18] not actually receiving it and you're rerouting those funds to yourself.

[00:21:22] And that's what, that's what the whole ghost thing is.

[00:21:26] It's just not a real employee or not an active employee for more of a solid definition.

[00:21:32] Yeah.

[00:21:32] Yeah.

[00:21:33] Folks.

[00:21:33] Look, I think, you know, I think when I see these cases, all these things come into my

[00:21:39] head, like, all right.

[00:21:42] Money's tight these days.

[00:21:43] Like things are going so expensive, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:21:46] I feel like she could have probably made more on a side hustle and not had not ruined her life.

[00:21:51] Sometimes the easiest thing seems like the best solution instead of the hard thing.

[00:21:56] Right?

[00:21:56] Like in that, in that case, it was probably easy for her to do.

[00:21:59] Hey, I don't have any oversight here.

[00:22:00] I'm able to go on the system and process payroll and create an employee and say this and say that.

[00:22:09] And look, at the end of the day, my kids are being fed.

[00:22:13] We're good.

[00:22:14] My bills are on time.

[00:22:17] And they'll justify it.

[00:22:18] I don't know.

[00:22:19] Look, I'm not a therapist or anything like that.

[00:22:22] But I think her mind should probably justify it some way and to try to make her maybe so she was doing something like.

[00:22:32] Oh, no, she was for her, for herself and family.

[00:22:35] She was doing something right.

[00:22:36] I think about John Q. You remember that movie with Enzo Watson?

[00:22:39] Think about that all the time when I, when I hear these cases and stuff like that, she's probably the closest one based on her excuse to come toward that.

[00:22:47] Because a lot, all the other cases we saw there, like they could, you could tell that they were just blowing the money.

[00:22:53] Yeah.

[00:22:53] That's a great example because.

[00:22:55] Right.

[00:22:55] At the end of it, he still was found guilty.

[00:22:58] Oh yeah.

[00:22:59] Right.

[00:22:59] You gotta go do the time, but it was worth it cause he saved his son's life.

[00:23:03] If y'all don't know, it's a John Q. is a movie.

[00:23:06] Wow.

[00:23:06] It's been, it's probably been a while that it's been out.

[00:23:09] Denzel Washington.

[00:23:10] Go look it up.

[00:23:11] Great movie.

[00:23:12] He basically, I think he, did he like steal medicine or he held.

[00:23:17] Emergency room hostage.

[00:23:19] So his son could get surgery or something like that.

[00:23:22] And he gladly took the time that was coming to him to save his son's life because he couldn't get the money to the.

[00:23:31] So he figured it out.

[00:23:32] He hijacked an emergency room.

[00:23:33] Damn.

[00:23:34] Shoot.

[00:23:34] Wow.

[00:23:35] So you think already that's, I think it's 22 years old already.

[00:23:39] Hi there.

[00:23:40] I'm Peter Zollman.

[00:23:41] I'm a cohost of the inside job boards and recruitment marketplaces podcast.

[00:23:46] And I'm Steven Rothberg.

[00:23:47] And I guess that makes me the other cohost.

[00:23:49] Every other week we're joined by guests from the world's leading job sites.

[00:23:53] Together.

[00:23:53] We analyze news about general niche and aggregator job board and recruitment marketplaces sites.

[00:23:59] Make sure you sign up and subscribe today.

[00:24:02] Today.

[00:24:04] Dang.

[00:24:04] Good gosh.

[00:24:06] But it's a great, basically classic old movie now.

[00:24:10] Right.

[00:24:11] Great flick.

[00:24:12] Go check it out if you haven't seen it.

[00:24:13] Yeah.

[00:24:14] And it's just basically that like somebody who did something, a good person that did something wrong for the right reasons.

[00:24:20] And he took the time.

[00:24:21] Yeah.

[00:24:21] Look, and you may be in a position as an employee, no matter what industry you're in, you may be in a position where you had the opportunity to do it and you're thinking about it.

[00:24:35] You need to really think about the consequences because to Brian's point.

[00:24:39] Yes.

[00:24:40] She's claimed, she claimed that she did it to, she took the money to take care of her kids.

[00:24:44] That didn't her, her legal responsibility.

[00:24:47] You still, maybe the, if it goes, if it's something, the jury or ruling or the judge, maybe he's a little lighter on the sentence, but.

[00:24:55] No, he's gonna, you go into jail regardless.

[00:24:58] You get caught for that.

[00:24:59] Hey, it was worth it for her.

[00:25:01] Great.

[00:25:01] Think about the risk.

[00:25:02] You have to think about the risk.

[00:25:04] Think about the consequences, man.

[00:25:05] Think about the consequences, man.

[00:25:06] Your professional reputation.

[00:25:07] This is a general manager.

[00:25:09] Yes.

[00:25:10] Oh my God.

[00:25:10] You say professional representation.

[00:25:12] I think about my co, one of my coworkers, E Lee, shout out to E Lee.

[00:25:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:16] And she just, she pride herself so, so much on reputation.

[00:25:20] Right.

[00:25:20] I was looking, I was moving down here and it, I didn't even, I'm put, I'm gonna put it out there, E Lee.

[00:25:27] I wasn't, I wasn't asking her to lie, but she took it that resembled.

[00:25:33] It was like, I was just like, Hey, just say you don't remember when, you know, I'm trying to get this job or I was trying to move down to Florida.

[00:25:42] And it wasn't, I was like, it was so long ago.

[00:25:45] I was just like, Hey, just say you don't remember girl.

[00:25:48] I don't remember.

[00:25:48] And she's like, what?

[00:25:49] She gave me this whole speech beyond reproach.

[00:25:53] And then I was like, yes, I know, but I wasn't even asking about all that.

[00:25:56] But so just when I, when you say perfect, when I hear professional reputation, I always think about Erica Lee.

[00:26:01] Yeah.

[00:26:02] And, and just the example that she set for me in my career about that, just big sis, like just putting it down for me.

[00:26:10] And that thing we created, what's that thing we said?

[00:26:12] You are your brand.

[00:26:14] That's right.

[00:26:15] That's right.

[00:26:15] So yeah.

[00:26:16] People are gonna, that with you now because of the choices that this person made.

[00:26:21] Right.

[00:26:22] She's not her new brand.

[00:26:23] Work. Yeah.

[00:26:24] Be hard for, and that was, I'm thinking about is wait a minute, man, you got, how are you gonna work later?

[00:26:29] You're doing this for the now, but if you get caught now, are your kids now in a worse situation?

[00:26:35] Cause you gotta go do time somewhere.

[00:26:36] You gotta eat.

[00:26:37] It's gonna be hard for you to get a job.

[00:26:40] Anything in a trusted value, as far as work is concerned, you're not gonna be able to get it.

[00:26:45] I don't know folks.

[00:26:46] I think folks just are not thinking of the consequences and yeah.

[00:26:52] I'm telling you, you talk to more criminals than not.

[00:26:56] And they tell you it's not worth it.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] If there's somebody out there that says there is, there's probably some mental wellness issues with them.

[00:27:04] You know what I mean?

[00:27:05] There's nobody of their right mind that continues on that criminal route after they've felt some consequences from it.

[00:27:13] There's just nobody that I've met and I've been in, and not as a resident, but I've been in prisons and I've talked to people.

[00:27:22] And one dude was like, oh, I do not want to come back here no more.

[00:27:25] And guess what?

[00:27:26] You know what I have to do to stay out of here?

[00:27:28] Not do crimes.

[00:27:30] That's it.

[00:27:31] And sometimes that is doing the hard thing.

[00:27:43] Level shifts.

[00:27:44] There's lots of parents that are doing there right now.

[00:27:47] Yeah.

[00:27:47] Get on TikTok.

[00:27:49] Look at that.

[00:27:50] We just saw a post and it was like, somebody was like, somebody in your family needs to be pursuing TikTok.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:55] Or social media.

[00:27:56] It's not a guarantee, but that's why I said somebody needs to be pursuing it because you never know what you can spark and boom.

[00:28:03] If you, there's so many people, one hit wonders that leverage things and take it.

[00:28:09] We got some takeaways.

[00:28:11] Yeah.

[00:28:11] Once you get.

[00:28:12] You want me to go first?

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:14] I talked about the stuff for the employees about.

[00:28:16] Oh, did you?

[00:28:17] Oh, look at you.

[00:28:18] Look at you.

[00:28:19] Working it in all smooth.

[00:28:22] So you.

[00:28:23] What are you?

[00:28:24] Yes.

[00:28:25] Some takeaways for the employers, the managers and the owners of things.

[00:28:30] And then, and this could stretch to pay rollers as well, depending on how much influence you have in your job, how much you want to help your job.

[00:28:38] I think it's a great opportunity for pay rollers to learn from these things.

[00:28:43] And even just not payrollers folks.

[00:28:45] If you're someone at a job where you can lend insight on things, if you're an HR, if you're a manager, if you're in operations, like almost anybody could go tell somebody, Hey, I heard, I heard this podcast.

[00:28:58] It's about your paycheck.

[00:29:01] And they said, these things happen.

[00:29:04] So let's, how about we get strict on our stores and implement these things so that we can catch this stuff.

[00:29:10] Yeah.

[00:29:10] You could literally be anybody at a job.

[00:29:12] And if it's applicable, make the recommendation.

[00:29:16] People love, you're going to save me some money.

[00:29:18] You're going to save again.

[00:29:19] Hey, now we're talking, right?

[00:29:21] Because again, if y'all haven't picked it up yet, Walt and I have been successful in our careers because we're, we do things that help our companies grow or save money.

[00:29:32] Mm-hmm .

[00:29:32] And even if it's incremental, it could be little, it could be little.

[00:29:36] It could be little.

[00:29:37] Those little things build up.

[00:29:38] And Hey, maybe I didn't sell a deal that made a billion dollars, but I did something in payroll that saved a thousand dollars.

[00:29:45] And if I do that every payroll, guess what?

[00:29:49] Saving significant money.

[00:29:50] You know what I mean?

[00:29:51] So, and just for your managers to think, oh, wait, wow.

[00:29:54] He's doing something that is, or she is doing something that helps that strengthens the payroll oversight or the managerial oversight.

[00:30:05] Right.

[00:30:05] So that's the number one takeaway on the employer side is strengthen your payroll oversight.

[00:30:11] This was a ghost employee.

[00:30:13] Okay.

[00:30:14] So employees should implement little stringent controls over the payroll process.

[00:30:18] That should be, first of all, me and Walt teach that literally.

[00:30:22] We literally teach this to payrollers is you have to have oversight.

[00:30:27] You have to have audit, right?

[00:30:30] Controls in place.

[00:30:31] We teach it in our course.

[00:30:33] We say, Hey, this, these type of things happen.

[00:30:36] And these are the ways to protect against it.

[00:30:38] Right.

[00:30:39] Allowing one person to control the beginning to the end of something is not a good control.

[00:30:47] You need somebody to check that.

[00:30:49] Even if it's hindsight, right?

[00:30:51] Hey, I mean, I have time to check it in the midst of processing payroll, but if somebody was checking this manager after the fact, they would have seen, wait a minute.

[00:31:03] Who's this guy?

[00:31:04] Yeah.

[00:31:04] Where's William at?

[00:31:05] I've never seen William bright up in here.

[00:31:08] Light.

[00:31:08] Light.

[00:31:09] So he would, they would have seen no light and they would have figured it out.

[00:31:13] Right.

[00:31:13] So the, that type of one person over it all creates a big vulnerability for payroll.

[00:31:20] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:21] Okay.

[00:31:22] Regular reviews, multiple approval steps.

[00:31:25] And especially now with systems, one of the big questions that we get when we teach is, Oh, why is, how does a payroll system help?

[00:31:33] And Whoa, payroll system helps because you can build in workflow.

[00:31:37] You can build in controls.

[00:31:39] You have robust reporting that allows you to analyze this data.

[00:31:44] Sometimes a really good system has the dashboard for you already and is calling out the things.

[00:31:50] And as AI continues to grow, I imagine these systems are going to start catching a lot of this stuff for us.

[00:31:56] Yep.

[00:31:57] You can have those choices in place.

[00:31:58] Yep.

[00:31:58] And just start reporting it up.

[00:32:00] But guess what?

[00:32:01] If you have only one person in the system that knows the whole system and nobody else knows it.

[00:32:05] What was I saying earlier?

[00:32:06] The secret, not good.

[00:32:08] You remember that story that we did?

[00:32:10] It was one of the true fair amount of stories where a person in California or something like that was the only person with the access.

[00:32:17] Yes.

[00:32:17] The login credentials.

[00:32:19] Yes.

[00:32:20] And I think they reset them or what it is something until like the city was locked down.

[00:32:24] They couldn't do anything for a little bit, a little while because this one person was the only person who could actually do it.

[00:32:29] I hear that story now in technology cases still.

[00:32:34] This person had the only login, they left, they're gone.

[00:32:37] I've heard that time and time again.

[00:32:40] Use of technology as we're talking about paywords and pay passwords and this stuff, right?

[00:32:45] Use of technology, you got to make sure you have redundancies, right?

[00:32:51] Because employers can leverage automated payroll systems that flag suspicious activity such as excessive shifts.

[00:32:58] That's a time and attendance system.

[00:33:00] Use a good time and attendance system.

[00:33:02] Shout out to Time Track Go.

[00:33:04] We'll check them out.

[00:33:05] If you don't have a time and attendance system, go look up Time Track Go.

[00:33:09] Go get it.

[00:33:10] Employee reporting channels.

[00:33:12] Encourage a culture where employees feel comfortable reporting suspicious activity.

[00:33:18] Okay?

[00:33:20] You got to anonymous.

[00:33:22] Make them feel comfortable doing it, right?

[00:33:25] In this case, employees will raise the concerns for you.

[00:33:29] That's an awesome thing, right?

[00:33:31] Radical transparency.

[00:33:33] If employees feel like, look, you stealing, that takes away from what I can grow from.

[00:33:37] No, you can't do that.

[00:33:39] Comprehensive audits is another one.

[00:33:41] We talk about this in our courses ad nauseam because these are the things that help you catch this stuff.

[00:33:47] Have good audits.

[00:33:49] And then five, the last one is insurance and recovery.

[00:33:53] Employees should have fraud insurance in place to protect against losses.

[00:33:57] In this case, the restaurant's insurance covered nearly $16,000 of the stolen amount, reducing the final impact on the business.

[00:34:04] That's good.

[00:34:05] That was great.

[00:34:07] Yeah, that's a great.

[00:34:07] It reduced the loss because I'm sure there's a premium even there.

[00:34:11] Yeah, I got an insurance.

[00:34:13] I lost $20,000.

[00:34:15] I got a thousand dollar deductible.

[00:34:17] Okay.

[00:34:18] 16,000 was that was what I get back.

[00:34:20] Okay.

[00:34:20] Hey, that works.

[00:34:22] Right?

[00:34:22] Cause it's helpful.

[00:34:23] And that's the, what is out there for.

[00:34:25] Build the safeguards folks.

[00:34:26] If you're an employer out there, you may say, or a manager again, if anybody would influence or that somebody's listening, build in these safeguards and help them minimize that risk.

[00:34:38] Yeah.

[00:34:38] Cause you could add up a lot of money, man.

[00:34:41] Yeah.

[00:34:41] So like, because think about it.

[00:34:43] If you're a payroll manager and you have a team of people that process payroll for you, but you process the corporate payroll, you should have at least, in my opinion, there should at least be one person on your team that you trust enough just in case you're out on vacation that they can process the corporate payroll in your stead.

[00:35:03] Right?

[00:35:03] Absolutely.

[00:35:04] So like, that's an example of you not operating in a silo because if I operate in the silo, I'm the only one processing the corporate payroll.

[00:35:14] I'm the only one with access to do that.

[00:35:16] It's around reports and stuff like that.

[00:35:18] That may bring a situation up where that temptation comes into place.

[00:35:22] Yeah.

[00:35:23] And God forbid the situations in my life, there are prevailing situations in my life where I'm, and I decide to do that because I need the money to do that because the bills are piling up and Hey, more riches behind stuff.

[00:35:37] We're struggling.

[00:35:38] Like you said earlier, of us are experiencing hard times.

[00:35:41] What is that?

[00:35:42] What does that stat like 50%, 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck?

[00:35:46] 70% is up.

[00:35:48] 70% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.

[00:35:51] So think about it.

[00:35:53] Well, yeah.

[00:35:54] And that's yeah, exactly.

[00:35:56] So it's a perfect segue into the safe talk.

[00:36:00] In your opinion, where the, was the failure on multiple levels since this situation wasn't prevented from the beginning, especially since an external audit found the issue.

[00:36:12] Oh, is that was the case with this?

[00:36:14] Yes.

[00:36:15] Oh, employees may have raised the concern, but this went off for a year.

[00:36:21] And so the employees raised the concern about it eventually, but they should have already had an audit in place regularly to catch this.

[00:36:34] Yeah.

[00:36:35] Like at least quarterly.

[00:36:36] Yeah.

[00:36:37] If you're not doing it every paycheck, but think about it though.

[00:36:40] We're in the mix there.

[00:36:41] It's okay.

[00:36:44] It, if they go up to, cause the Wendy's is, it might not be standalone.

[00:36:49] Even if it is right.

[00:36:52] That if the new hire reporting is going from the general manager up the ladder to someone else, they don't know who's in the Wendy's.

[00:36:59] They're like, all right, great.

[00:37:00] New hires.

[00:37:01] Boom.

[00:37:01] And they file the report.

[00:37:02] It's automated, right?

[00:37:03] It's some of them systems is automated.

[00:37:05] And look, it, it, it, she used somebody that she knew.

[00:37:09] So maybe she had access to his social input.

[00:37:13] So he may, maybe when you know that he verifies.

[00:37:16] No, right.

[00:37:16] He's a legitimate person.

[00:37:17] He's a legitimate person.

[00:37:19] He verify would have validated.

[00:37:20] Right.

[00:37:21] How else, I guess the, to the roll back to the question.

[00:37:25] Do you feel like there were multiple.

[00:37:28] Failures.

[00:37:29] Failures on the different levels.

[00:37:31] HR, payroll, since it wasn't prevented.

[00:37:37] I don't know.

[00:37:38] I don't know.

[00:37:39] I, I think that I'm thinking through, right.

[00:37:41] Cause I'm in this loop.

[00:37:43] Like we're both in this loop.

[00:37:45] I mean, think you were like, what, um, what the amount of data that we process through.

[00:37:52] Look, but for me, a company now, I understand that not all franchises, especially in the case with Wendy's, maybe they all don't process payroll through the same.

[00:38:06] For like that.

[00:38:07] So it would be easy for me to say, oh, they should have a quality control person to check on that stuff.

[00:38:13] But that may not be the case.

[00:38:14] You know what I'm saying?

[00:38:15] So it could be.

[00:38:16] Yeah.

[00:38:16] I mean, cause the friend, the way it works is it could be the owner owns one or they can own a hundred.

[00:38:21] Yep.

[00:38:22] But we don't know.

[00:38:23] Right.

[00:38:25] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend, Mark Pfeffer and his show people tech.

[00:38:32] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM.

[00:38:41] That's the show you need to listen to go to the work to find network, search up people tech, Mark Pfeffer.

[00:38:48] You can find them anywhere.

[00:38:53] Believe me.

[00:38:53] I do think of ways to try to prevent this stuff and catch it.

[00:38:57] So clearly there was a failure somewhere, but the audit, Hey, the third party audit caught it.

[00:39:03] Those auditors look great now.

[00:39:05] And they were assured.

[00:39:06] So they were, they covered the insurance company covered the majority of that money.

[00:39:11] So you see 3,000 of 20,000 was covered, was covered.

[00:39:16] Recovered.

[00:39:16] So you know, the person is going to go, you're going to have, you, you fired the person.

[00:39:20] They're going to have some legal impact.

[00:39:22] I think it's solved for me.

[00:39:23] Case closed solved.

[00:39:25] And, and, and as, as far as that franchise owner, um, maybe you increase that audit to twice a year.

[00:39:34] Something.

[00:39:34] 10.

[00:39:35] Whatever audit caught it twice a year.

[00:39:38] I do, I do an audit that's fairly simple and it's checking direct deposit accounts.

[00:39:44] So I'll run a report and see how many duplicates I have, if any, on direct deposit accounts.

[00:39:53] Now that's not to say, Hey, we were, and by the way, folks, we're running over here and we're talking more payroll stuff here.

[00:40:00] Feel free to drop anytime, but this is interesting stuff.

[00:40:03] The audit.

[00:40:05] That's not to say that you can't have duplicates because I have run in situations where I have a man and a wife or a spousal couple, a partnership, even a parental parents and children.

[00:40:18] That share direct deposit accounts.

[00:40:22] And look, in this case, she was having the funds direct deposited into a, what, into a cash app.

[00:40:28] A cash app.

[00:40:29] Direct deposit.

[00:40:29] Yeah. But still is this, which they probably can pull the info for and look it up somehow.

[00:40:36] I would love to see how they actually caught this.

[00:40:39] Cause there's probably another way that I'm not even thinking of on the employee standpoint.

[00:40:45] So that's one of the ways I catch it.

[00:40:47] Another way that I catch or not catch it, but encourage a check is if a new manager, if I onboard like a new manager at Endeavor, I used to, new school leader will come on.

[00:41:00] And I would encourage to see everybody.

[00:41:04] I would say, Hey, here's your rock is how you pull your roster.

[00:41:07] Please make sure that you put a face with all these names, validate who these people are and you know who your team is.

[00:41:16] And they were small enough that it was an easy task.

[00:41:19] Cause they're, Oh yeah, of course.

[00:41:20] And everybody was, it was super professional and they, Oh, absolutely.

[00:41:24] No, without doubt.

[00:41:25] But it was just something to do.

[00:41:27] That's another way.

[00:41:29] And you could warn, and that's a way you're warning the manager as well.

[00:41:33] Cause if they were fraudulent, you could, that kind of let you know, Oh shoot.

[00:41:38] Ryan talking about, I need to see all these faces.

[00:41:41] That means he's looking at this already.

[00:41:43] So another good audit before we close this out is because she manually entered the time for this person.

[00:41:50] Oh, so you can do an audit because most times, most time systems, you can see who made the entry.

[00:41:56] Yes.

[00:41:58] So, Oh, why did she hit her?

[00:41:59] Why did she hit her all this stuff?

[00:42:02] That's a really good.

[00:42:03] So what Walt is saying, if you have an automated system and one out of a thousand employees are automated and this one person is getting keyed in their whole time.

[00:42:13] Every time.

[00:42:15] Every time.

[00:42:16] That is a core.

[00:42:17] Not that it's impossible.

[00:42:19] Not that it's no meaning something's wrong.

[00:42:22] Yes.

[00:42:22] Right.

[00:42:22] It doesn't have to lead to fraud.

[00:42:24] It could lead to training.

[00:42:26] Oh yeah.

[00:42:28] That's my son.

[00:42:29] And I just do his thing all the time.

[00:42:31] Or all that's, you know, you, you're going to find something wrong behind it.

[00:42:35] Like, why are you doing it for this one?

[00:42:37] Oh, it's my friend.

[00:42:40] And it does.

[00:42:41] I'm not saying it's right at all, but it's going to be something wrong behind that.

[00:42:44] You know what I mean?

[00:42:46] But that's, yeah, that's a good one.

[00:42:47] That's a good one.

[00:42:48] And that's the thing.

[00:42:48] That's why we say use reliable systems.

[00:42:51] Go get the time track goals.

[00:42:53] Go get the systems out there that are reliable because you can pull these reports.

[00:42:58] You can create these audits.

[00:43:00] You can create the bells and whistles.

[00:43:02] Another one, for instance, is some systems will let you know as a person, if my direct deposit information changes, I get an email from my system that says, hey, your direct deposit information.

[00:43:14] Just change.

[00:43:15] So if somebody was actually happened to, was able to hack into my account and change it, but they didn't reroute the email, like they didn't know enough to change something else.

[00:43:26] Guess what?

[00:43:27] I'm going to get it.

[00:43:28] Right.

[00:43:29] And even if they change the email, you're going to get that as well.

[00:43:32] There's going to be notifications on it.

[00:43:34] So that's a good way as well.

[00:43:36] They're a bunch of little things, right?

[00:43:38] You know what I mean?

[00:43:39] And folks just listen to the episodes, go look at our auditing ones, but look at our true crime ones.

[00:43:43] We talk about it all the time.

[00:43:45] Um, every time it comes up, I try to think about new stuff to share.

[00:43:48] Hey, reach out as well.

[00:43:49] Let us know.

[00:43:50] Oh, any audit, any checks and balances, clever ways that you use, any controls that you use currently.

[00:43:59] We'd love to hear about it, man.

[00:44:01] Folks.

[00:44:03] That's it, folks.

[00:44:04] We went a little bit over today, but we'll be all right.

[00:44:08] Yeah.

[00:44:08] It's all good, y'all.

[00:44:09] Until next time.

[00:44:11] We love you.

[00:44:12] Peace.

[00:44:13] Peace.

[00:44:22] Before we sign off, here are a couple of quick things.

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