The Untold Story of OysterHR's Payroll Innovation with Matteo Bordin Innovation

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[00:00:19] Welcome to our podcast, It's About Payroll. We're your hosts, Brian Escobar and Walter William Duncan III. Whether you're new to the payroll game or a seasoned veteran, we have something for you. Welcome back, folks. This is episode 142 of It's About Payroll. And we got a great guest on today. But before we get into all that, how are you doing, sir? I'm doing well. How about you?

[00:00:48] I'm doing good, man. I had a good weekend. I had a great football weekend. Nice playoff. Did you see the games? Great games, bro. Heartbreaker for Lamar Jackson, man, and the Ravens. And it's going to be, I don't remember the receiver's name at the end that kind of dropped that pass. It's going to fall on him, but it's not all on him. No, there were so many things throughout the game. Yeah. There were things, different turnovers and stuff like that.

[00:01:14] Now, look, he did have a turnover earlier in the game, too, where he had a big catch-up for the first time. Yeah, he threw it right to a bill. Yeah, no, I'm saying about Mark Andrews, the same guy that dropped the pass. He had a fumble, too, like a crucial fumble when they were driving. Caught it for a first down and just, look, it was snowing. The ball's slippery. Yeah, it's not great conditions. One of the news articles I read implied, like, there was some bad judgment call. Do you remember any bad calls from the refs against the Ravens? Maybe one or two.

[00:01:41] I know that there was more with the Chiefs and the Texans, though. There were, like, some egregious calls that the refs made. Like, it was just, look, I know he's Pat Mahomes. I know he's, like, MJ of the NFL right now. Goat! Like, you can't even touch the guy without getting the flag thrown. Oh, yes! Yes! Yes! He's on some actors, like how the soccer plays. Or LeBron was famous for that in basketball, too, right? Just flopping on him. He's like, ah!

[00:02:07] Yeah, there was one call against him that, yeah, there was no unnecessary roughness or penalty there. But... Yeah, bro. Yeah, anyway, good games, good stuff. Yeah, they're inaugurations today. Elect Trump. Yeah. I think it's going on right now while we're recording. Happy MLK Day. Yeah, and welcome. And welcome to TikTok. Welcome to the return of TikTok. I think it was only down for a few hours. A few hours, so sad. Yeah, people were...

[00:02:36] I wonder how that played out. Like, what really... I don't know. I saw a story that this 19-year-old kid set fire to some congressman's desk. Are you serious? Because of the TikTok man, and then hours later, it was back up. Stop. And now you're going to jail. There had to be... I don't know what it was, but maybe we'll figure... I don't know. But yeah, interesting stuff. I knew... I had a feeling that it was just not going to stay.

[00:03:06] I was surprised it even went down for the time that it did. And I just... I felt like it's too big to fail. Even my daughter, my oldest daughter, was like, I feel like I've never not had TikTok. And this is something revolutionary. And I was like, wow, really? Such an impact. But just the thing, right? These young homies set fire to the... That's crazy, yo. Some people make a lot of money off of TikTok. That's how they get... No, no doubt. That... And that probably was more of a driver than anything else.

[00:03:36] But very interesting to be a part of and witness in our time. The rise and fall of social media is something. Just wait for the robots to come. Oh my gosh. That's a whole nother deal, bro. So what you got for us in pay news? Just a quick article that's out there. So the links will be in the show notes when we post the episode. Just a few changes as of January 1 to be aware of that some businesses and payroll processes

[00:04:05] or HR professionals should know. Okay. The IRS standard mileage rate was expected to increase. So you want to check that out and see if it did, which will impact or affect travel reimbursements. Also, additionally, 401k and IRA contribution limits for employees are being updated as well. So that's providing opportunities for those increased retirement savings.

[00:04:32] And so our payroll practices, our HR practices are likely going to be needing an update or adjustment to comply, to make sure that we're making sure that we're compliant with regulatory changes and stuff like that. And then it says something about the OT law still may go into effect too. So I don't know. The one with the FLSA, they're saying that still may go into... That's what this article says.

[00:04:58] Again, you want to just make sure and see if that's the case. You got me curious. Now I went to the article. Yeah, it was updated as of January 8th. No, it's saying that it's... I mean, if I'm reading... Yeah, it's saying that the reversal of it is still in effect. The reversal. Either way, you need to update your stuff in case you did the change. There's so much more to talk about that. And we'll circle back to it when we can.

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[00:06:57] What I wanted to touch upon for the salary threshold issue that companies are facing is that they called this out back in July, maybe even before. I don't know. I think it was like March or May of 24. There was a July 1 increase. And then there was a 1-1 increase to follow.

[00:07:17] Then come late in the year, November, December, they reversed both changes, the July and the January. So now, what kind of situation does that put companies in where they may have already communicated these changes to their employees? Hey, you're going to get an update now. Or if a company was being really aggressive, they may have a lot of money, bringing them all the way to the January 1 change early may have been great.

[00:07:46] But think about it, right? If they've done all that and now to reverse it, what do you do as a company if you've already promised or not promised but communicated that to your employees? And now say, oh, psych, you get to go back to 38 or 48.3 or whatever. I think it depends on, you have to understand, like we always say, you have to understand your audience, right? Or know who you're serving. And I think that's going to be the same thing when it comes to those employees, right? Like you're going to have to know, hey, how's our retention been?

[00:08:17] How has employee engagement and productivity been? Is this going to impact those things? Is our workforce engaged and is this going to cause them to not be engaged, like I said? And there's different things I think you have to factor in before you make a decision as a company. Like some companies are probably like, hey, you know, we were going to do it. But because of this, now we're going to revert back. Some companies are going to be like, hey, we said we're going to do it. We're going to stick by it.

[00:08:41] If they can afford it, I think there'll be, you know, it's a lot of, you should be able to get your ROI on it if they can afford it, if the employees are worth it. Because then, right? One of the things I heard somebody say is that maybe they could explore some alternative compensation, right? So we'll say like, hey, okay, I know it was promised, but maybe we'll just give you guys or give the team a one-time bonus or something like some flexible work.

[00:09:08] Try to find different ways to keep the employees happy. Incentivize too. If you're in the retail, if you're in a retail or service industry, maybe it's, hey, look, we can't give it to you guaranteed, but we can incentivize you. If you hit your, these KPIs quarterly, annually, boom, we'll make, we'll keep it going.

[00:09:29] I think that's a great way to drive compensation anyway is incentivize, incentivize, incentivize, incentivize. Can't speak this morning. Your workforce, because if not. So, so look, this is some of the ways that I guess when it comes to incentivizing those things, maybe you can give out, like you were saying, skill development programs.

[00:09:53] Like investing, like saying, hey, we're going to invest in you to go get this certification or it says something about flexible work arrangements. Those bonuses and incentives, like you were speaking to, compensatory time off. So giving them like, say, hey, you got, hey, it's not going to deduct from your normal bucket, but hey, this is going to make up for something that like you have. You want to get every other Friday off in June. Hey, we can work with you on that as long as it doesn't mess with productivity.

[00:10:23] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, those are all great ways, man. You okay? Yeah. Yeah. While we're talking compensation, the kids are asking me for money and I'm like, oh my gosh. It's tough to have the kids home on days that I'm already working. Oh my God. Today's guest is a seasoned product leader with 15 years of experience driving innovation at Oyster, UKG, and Criteo.

[00:10:52] They've scaled Oyster's revenue by 20x. Wow. Automated 60% of the back office task and led a 50-person product team to Series D at a $1.2 billion valuation. Amazing. At UKG, he integrated PeopleDoc post-merger and acquisition while boosting revenue 20% year over year. Even during the pandemic.

[00:11:15] At Criteo, he delivered over $90 million in net incremental ARR through new publisher products with a technical computer science background, a Stanford GSB business certificate, and a fluency in English, French, and Italian. Please welcome Matteo Borden.

[00:11:35] Hi, I'm George LaRock, and I'm looking forward to exploring the critical trends shaping the future of work and technology with you over on the WorkTech podcast. Now, this podcast is a little different. I bring together industry leaders, innovators, and investors, and we go deep into market intelligence that matters to HR pros and tech providers alike.

[00:11:59] So, give the WorkTech podcast a listen here on the WorkDefined Podcast Network, and please subscribe if you like it. See you there. Welcome to the show. Our first question for always for folks is give us a little bit of something about your background and how you got into payroll. Yeah, absolutely. So, today I'm VP of product at Oyster.

[00:12:23] So, Oyster is a company who's focused on a very important mission for us, which is basically enabling talent anywhere to have access to opportunities, to job opportunities everywhere in the world. So, we empower companies anywhere in the world to hire people, hire talent everywhere across the globe. And we do this by supporting three main products. So, we support our core business, which is EOR, employer of record.

[00:12:50] We support it through international contractors, and we support it with global payroll. And that was that three of them are all based on a core payroll infrastructure. So, we built all this technology internally basically to streamline our offering for EOR, PO, also in the U.S. payroll contractors. Amazing. So, how'd you get here? What got you into payroll?

[00:13:19] So, actually, I joined the company 40 years ago, and actually, I got attracted by the mission, to be honest. I am an expatriate myself. So, I'm Italian, but I've been living in France since 2008. So, yeah, quite a long time. And at the time, I mean, the main reason for me to go to a new country was, okay, let's look for new opportunities, for new professional opportunities. It was difficult to find a job in my own country, et cetera.

[00:13:47] And when the officer knocked at the door and said, basically, our mission is to, in the future, this should not happen. You should just work remotely, work from your country. You don't have to move away. And we want to enable that. And there are multiple ways to enable this kind of distributed workforce. One, of course, is to build all the tools, the Zooms, the collaborative tools, et cetera.

[00:14:14] And one thing is to take care of the most painful part, I would say, which is the administrative part. How you get paid, how you pay your employees, how you deliver benefits, how you deliver equity, how you be sure that you are compliant in all different restrictions, in all different countries where you have employees. And that's the problem that we're solving. And that's how I landed on. Yeah, that's exciting. I love that.

[00:14:40] So speaking of different countries, I know that the company recently announced that they are now offering their global payroll product in over 24 countries. Could you tell us more about that? Yeah. Yeah. So the fundamental problem that we are solving is ensuring that companies that have typically multiple modalities of employment, so they have their own employees, they have EOR, they have contractors, they have their own customers, and they are all distributed. They stay compliant.

[00:15:08] They pay their employees on time. And they show us how they deliver a great employee experience to their employees in the form of great benefits, great follow-up from an HR perspective, and so on and so forth.

[00:15:24] So we really cover the whole experience for our customers through a software platform that enables all this automation, makes things much more compliant, much more lean in terms of execution, and saves time and money for our customers while giving them access to a world world of talent. That's amazing. That's amazing.

[00:15:45] How does, how do they, we've spoken to a lot of global payroll professionals and the main challenge, and based on the research is like, how do you make sure that the system is giving you the compliance in each country accordingly? Yeah. So we made, we made a fundamental technical decision here in the sense that we do rely on local expertise that is really specific for each country. And we have pre exotic countries.

[00:16:13] We, for example, for our EOR offering is live on more than 100 countries. And we assure compliance there as well. So we have local partners from both payroll and HR and legal that can help us. And we build all the technology middleware that enable us to connect with all these different partners and sort of plug and play configuration. Wow. So for example, when it comes to, when it comes to global payroll behind the scenes, we have a very set of technologies that are connected together.

[00:16:43] And we have different payroll engines in each country, different verification engine in each country. Some of them are building houses, some of them are off the shelf, but in the end, everything goes into the central oyster app, which becomes the centralized source of information, the unique source of truth for all payroll data. Provides the single entry for our customers to basically verify compliance, verify payroll data, validate payroll data, and actually execute all the payments. Wow. That's awesome.

[00:17:12] That is amazing. So why might some organizations need this solution specific to international hiring? Yeah. So there are typical multiple use cases. So one is companies that want to, that have already actually an international footprint. So they already have, I don't know, entities in three, four different countries.

[00:17:37] And they are facing a fundamental challenge, which is they have a local set of technology or payment provider in each country. And they have a big headache to bring all the data together to have a holistic view of all payroll data and pilot payroll from a centralized location. So not only they need to invest in having local technical infrastructure, local expertise, but they also have the additional headache of bringing everything together.

[00:18:05] So they probably live in tons of Excel sheets and whatnot. So we remove all this pain by having a centralized platform, which aggregates behind the scenes, complete transparent for customers, the different payroll technologies and expertise, and provides a single entry for our customers. So they just go into our platform.

[00:18:31] They have a single source of truth, complete holistic view on all payroll data, and they can execute all the tasks. That's amazing. So if I'm understanding, I remember when I did global payroll once upon a time, all of the solutions that I was interviewing and researching, they all required me to have to run different reports for every country or different. I had to do it multiple times to get the same information. So you're saying Oyster, I can run it one time and it's pulling in aggregating all for the different countries for me.

[00:19:02] Amazing. Yeah. From the infrastructure, of course, you can, from the platform, you can, of course, go as deep as you want. So you can look at your data country by country. Okay. Because sometimes you want to do that. Sometimes you might have different payroll cycles in different countries.

[00:19:19] So you might want to have this level of granularity, but then if you want to have a global view, like for example, not only to pilot payroll, but also to export data and put those data into your ERP. You know, track all the spending, et cetera. You don't have to go on a country by country basis or entity by entity basis, export data and so on. You can aggregate all of that.

[00:19:45] You have a single centralized version of all data where you also have the mapping between the different countries. So you know there that actually what is called, I don't know, security number sort of security number in one country, you know, or something else. Some other, all that knowledge that enables you to somehow connect the dots between the different, uh, specificities of each country.

[00:20:09] Which in the end means that your investment as a customer, in order to have localized expertise, gets down a little bit. You kind of delegate to the intelligence of the platform, the need of being very, very much detailed and expert in, in, in one specific country. Wow. So let me ask you a question, Matteo. What do companies risk if they mismanage their payroll operations? Yeah.

[00:20:36] So the, the typical problem is that you, you, you, okay. Of course the first one is that your employees might be unhappy. They don't get paid. They don't get paid the right amount. And you have an happy employees that are all sorts of consequences to that. The second one is that you might make some mistakes in the payments and you might incur some fines. Uh, if you don't pay or social securities or contribution, et cetera, you might incur some fines.

[00:21:04] And then you can also break some, some compliance rules. And when it comes to breaking compliance rules, depending on the severity, it can go from a fine. It can even go to the point of being prevented to make business in certain countries. And we have these examples because our platform supports global payroll, EOR, global contractors, and, and different countries. They have different requirements in what kind of employment modality you can use, you cannot use. And how each modality needs to be supported.

[00:21:34] And violation to that might really incur, might really make you incur into even provision of making business in, in a given country. So it might be very, very severe depending on the violation. Wow. You segue into a great question is do you, can you point out any of those global payroll rules to be aware of? Tag, Herr Jauch. Herr Ulmen, was haben Sie diesmal wieder nicht verstanden? Ja, Herr Jauch, können Sie mir das mit dem E-Rezept nochmal erklären?

[00:22:02] Es ist doch nun wirklich einfach. Also, Shop-Apotheke-App öffnen, Krankenkassenkarte dranhalten. Karte dranhalten, Rezepte auswählen, bestellen, fertig. Ja, Sie wissen doch, wie es geht. Ja, aber also einfach nur dranhalten ist das ... Ich dachte, meine Frau wollte mich verarschen. Diesmal auswärmsweise nicht. Ah. E-Rezept, Shop-Apotheke. Hältst du schon dran? Ja, so there is of course the ... Okay, the most important is of course how you do the gross to net calculation,

[00:22:32] how you pay social contributions depending on each country, how you keep track of actually paid amount, work time. Yeah. So time tracking, time and attendance, all of that is important. The location of the work is important. So there are really several aspects. Benefits, how you ensure that you pay the right amount in terms of your health insurance.

[00:22:56] And that is actually correctly deduced in the right way from a tax perspective into the payroll. Expenses is another big headache depending on the type of expense, depending on the country. The rules on how to take that into account from a taxation perspective is always different. So all those nuances play a role in the general ... I remember doing Italy. So I wonder, can you speak to ... There's something like very specific for Italy that you have to do. And I don't remember exactly what.

[00:23:26] I feel like it was something to do with the social security. Does that ring a bell? So there are a lot of things. So, well, usually European countries like Italy and France or Spain or Germany are very, very detailed in the way that they execute payroll. And there are examples. I can give an example of the, based on France. In France, there are more than 100 CBAs of bargaining agreements.

[00:23:52] So, and each of them has a different number of vacation days, different rules for probation period, the different rules for, for example, how many incremental PTOs you have, how you should calculate your taxes, all of that. And there are more than 100 of them. And inside each of these 100, there are nuances between whether you are exempt or not exempt for time tracking and so on and so forth.

[00:24:16] So you have all these nuances and you can imagine that multiplied by countries and by several countries, how much of complexity you have. So that's a good example. And Oyster can capture that and is able to help clients keep track of that. Wow. That's amazing. That is amazing. I want to make sure, have you covered all the product offerings that Oyster has? Yeah. So I'd like to add another aspect that is very dear to us.

[00:24:45] So, we are at heart a knowledge and intelligence company in the sense that by being exposed to managing and supporting so many employees across the globe, over time, we built a strong, strong knowledge about compliance rules and employee expectation across the globe. So how does this concretize into our platform? On one side, we have intelligence about workforce management and in particular about salary insights.

[00:25:15] How basically we are able to tell our customers how much, what are the market rate for, I don't know, software engineers across more than 100 countries, what kind of benefits they expect, what kind of equity they expect, what are the implications of choosing one equity type versus another. So, for example, I don't know what are the difference between stock options and phantom stocks and things like that. And recommend and help our customers make wide to wide decision. And the other one is more related to AI.

[00:25:43] So we are about to launch an AI solution. I was just going to, I just made a note to ask you. Yeah, we did. We are about to launch an AI solution, which basically relies on our first party internal knowledge about compliance rules, about employment laws in order to provide our customers with an AI assistant.

[00:26:06] That can help them understand different rules across the globe and make the right decisions based on guidance that is provided by the AI assistant in a way that is very smart, in a way that is very fast, very transparent, and very private and privacy centric for our customers. So you bring up another good topic, cybersecurity.

[00:26:33] How have you, are you guys, you know, paying attention to the security of your system and its vulnerabilities? Yeah. So there are multiple ways that we have to look at that. So one is, of course, we are in the compliance business. There is a component of payment compliance. So we are very, very deep into how we execute KYB, know your business, know your customer KYC.

[00:27:01] Well, basically identity verification, business identification. So, of course, being very, very careful about moving funds from one bank account to the other and sure that all of that happens in a compliant and transparent way. So this is one aspect. The other aspect is, of course, the classic protection that we have on the platform. Of course, we do, we do have the classic password protection mechanism, way phase and so on and so forth.

[00:27:30] And then we have an internal programs for penetration testing, which is more on the, I say, the more technical area where we have a recurrent test and stress test of the platform in terms of protection and resistance to external. That's great. That's great. How, you know, talking, going back to AI real quick, how far do you think we are from AI actually running payroll for us?

[00:27:59] Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I'm gonna maybe give a little bit of a conventional answer in the sense that payroll essentially is a deterministic process. I mean, it should be deterministic. Given a set of output input, the machinery to decide the output is very complicated, but it should be deterministic. And, and Gen AI tools, as of now, they are not deterministic. Okay. Okay. Okay. So they are probabilistic in nature.

[00:28:29] So sometimes they just make, they are not mistaken. What we call hallucination is just that they decide to do something that is less probable, but they might take this, this, they might hallucinate. So I personally do not think that the payroll calculation itself is very close to be replaced by, by AI.

[00:28:47] But on the other side behind the payroll, the payroll operation in the larger sense is composed by very sophisticated processes that requires people often to go to different tools, move data from one another, compare data from different sources, make payments, do checks. So basically all the administrative work behind payroll operations.

[00:29:11] Now there, I would tend to think that a genetic AI can really help a lot into our gestrating all these processes. So relying on deterministic algorithms for the actual calculation, but then alleviating all the manual work that today payroll people needs to do, needs to execute when it comes to extracting data, comparing data, doing checks. And sure that basically everything is fine. That can actually be replaced by a genetic AI systems.

[00:29:41] So that, that's my first up on this. Wow, that's a great answer. Yeah, no, that really is. And you're right with the compliance piece of it. Cause I recently pressure tested chat GPT on some state compliance rules and no matter what source. And I tell folks all the time, I don't care where you're getting the information from the state or the region country that you're in is always going to give you the right answer. They don't want you to be wrong. So you always have to check it against that.

[00:30:07] So I did that with chat GPT recently on a few States and chat GPT was accurate. And that was, so I, I see like what you're saying it on the compliance side, it would be great at aggregating kind of the information that's out there that exists. That's just matter of fact, right? That doesn't even really have to just needs to go grab it for us and be accurate. So that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, but that's very challenging.

[00:30:34] Ensuring this level of applicability of, and predictability of an AI system is very complicated. The, what we did was really to ensure that our AI system just relies on our first party data on which we have fully control in order to give answers. And all resources able to reference the actual source of where you got that information from. So that, that is really, really important to ensure that the right level of work. Yeah.

[00:31:02] I used to, me and Walt talk about it all the time. And as AI has become such a conversation for everything. And I used to think when it first came out, I was like, oh, we're light years away from AI being more of an impact on payroll. I don't think that anymore. I think we're a lot closer than people are comfortable with. Yeah. Admitting. Exactly. And it is. It's scary. It definitely is, but it's look that it's doing so, so many things right now.

[00:31:29] It's getting integrated in so much age, like you said, on the kind of preparation, the administrative side, part of it, it really impacting departments. And so with that, I didn't think it was, I didn't think it was going to move as fast as it has. So with that in mind, I'm like, wait a minute, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's going to go quickly. And folks just really don't want, but like I tell everybody, like I say on the show a lot, we need to be the, the change factor in it.

[00:31:56] We need to usher it in and not be scared of applying it to our work and our products, because then we become the pilots, right? We're the ones that are helping it evolve into the system. And as opposed to any technology, if we reject it, we're going to become the dinosaurs. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's going to come in, just, just usher it in and help it in. But so Mateo, just to round things out for us before we let you go. And we really appreciate you.

[00:32:24] What leave us with this, what sets Oyster apart from the others? Optimize your business with a workforce, AI edge powered by Vizier, make smarter decisions and achieve better outcomes with real time AI insights delivered to every people leader. Explore more at Vizier.com. Yeah.

[00:32:48] I think it's really this specialization that we have on global HR intelligence and knowledge that is very unique to our offer. It's really at the heart of what the company, the company is, what the company stands for. This detailed knowledge and the capability to represent this knowledge into our product, fuse this knowledge into our product. Be sure that we are really, every compliance rule is really automated through our platform.

[00:33:16] Every nuances of the employment laws is really represented to our AI assistant. So this deep understanding of the local nuances and representing them into our platform, I think that's very, very much unique of our technology. Amazing. Awesome. I love it. Look forward to seeing what continues with Oyster. Yeah. Thank you so much, Mateo, for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Anything else that you want to leave us with?

[00:33:45] No, just, just, yeah. Maybe just one thing for your audience, just embrace global employment. It's a great tool to retain your employees. It's a great tool to find the new, new talents. So, and there are great, great ways today to make that in a way that is efficient from an appraisal perspective and very cost effective from a total cost of ownership of your solution for global employment. So reach out to oyster.hr. Perfect. I was just going to say, what's the website?

[00:34:15] And of course, as always, we will include it in the show notes and yeah. Thank you for joining us, Mateo. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Okay. Before we sign off, here are a couple of quick things. Don't forget to follow. It's about payroll on LinkedIn, and it's about your paycheck on Facebook and TikTok. Thank you for being part of our payroll community. And thank you for being a part of this journey with us until the next time. Keep learning, keep growing.

[00:34:45] And most importantly, keep going.