The Future of Payroll Is Personal — A Conversation with Michael Steen

[00:00:00] Welcome back, folks. This is episode 164. We got an amazing guest today, Mr. Michael Steen. And just to give you a little intro of this amazing payroll professional, he is, let's see, Client Solution Director at Payroll Minds, a global payroll consultancy dedicated to helping multinationals streamline their HR and payroll processes across complex international landscapes.

[00:00:26] Born in Detroit, raised in the Pacific Northwest of Chicago and based in Dublin, Michael brings a diverse background from wilderness guiding and crisis intervention to mindfulness teaching before landing in global payroll. He did your homework. He produces the show, basically. Passionate for raising the profile of payroll as a strategic function. He's also a musician in arms. Man, I'm learning. I didn't know this.

[00:00:54] Asana and Cold Plunge enthusiast and currently curating and archival recordings for his upcoming book on traditional Irish music. Welcome to the show, Michael Steen. Man, you did your homework. You're outing me, all my nerdy background. That was cool. I love this. I mean, thank you very much for having me, Brian and Walt. It's our pleasure.

[00:01:22] And where are you both calling in from today? Southeast Florida. I was going to say Southeast U.S. because Walt's in Georgia and I'm in Florida. Yep. Yeah. Cool. So. Yeah, I'm a Midwest boy myself. How'd you end up in Dublin? It's a big story. But I would have been born and raised right in the Metro Detroit area. My family's from there and also from Canada. My mother's Canadian.

[00:01:49] And I, excuse me, lived in Chicago for kind of my college years. And then I ended up living in Portland, Oregon. And spent about a decade. I kind of did my 20s in Portland, Oregon, you could say. And then I've just been about five years living in Dublin, Ireland. So. Oh, okay. I'm just in North County, Dublin. In a little village on the seaside up here. So living the dream. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:20] It's been a cool journey so far. And it's fun to get to chat about it and chew the fat with you guys. We talk about all the time, like payroll can literally take you around the world. You know, the things that payroll can do for your career, anyone's career. Because, you know, we're facing a shortage, Michael. I don't know if you knew that, but 80% of the payroll folks, at least in the U.S., are over 40. And, you know, those looking at retirement soon.

[00:02:45] And we are trying to find all different ways and different initiatives to kind of get folks just knowledgeable about that it's a possible career path. Well, this is great. I love kind of showcasing these professionals. What are you going to say? Well. Michael's a great example of how, like he said, he just said he's living the dream, right? And the payroll professional, right? And that could, like, be something that sells someone or gets someone to come into the payroll industry.

[00:03:14] Especially if somebody who's young, right? You draw them in. You know, so I think that's a great example of that. Heck yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. You reminded me there what you're talking about. Do you know Mel and the GPA, Global Payroll Alliance? I know. We've heard of the Global Payroll Alliance. I don't know anybody specifically. Oh, yeah. Well, Melanie would be a great guest for the show. But one of their initiatives is hashtag payroll is a career. I think it's a similar thing that you're talking about. Yeah. Trying to raise the profile of the industry.

[00:03:45] And yeah. What's her name? Melanie Pizzi. P-I-Z-Z. Oh, I've seen that name. Based in England. Yeah. She could be a fun guest and someone who's. Thank you. You know, would be really. Yeah. I think we'd be really advocating particularly on the side of the pond for the payroll industry. Awesome. Yeah. So tell us, how'd you get into payroll? Yeah. So I've never. I mean, I don't actually really consider myself in payroll at all.

[00:04:14] I've never processed payroll. Okay. But I would be. I would consider myself a member of the Global Payroll community and an advocate for the community who would have approached it at really from the vendor side. You know, when I moved to Ireland, I landed in a software startup called Payslip. Oh, I remember that. And yep. Yep. And Payslip is a really great Irish success story.

[00:04:42] You know, we founded by Fidelma McGurk from Wexford. It was an amazing story to be a part of. A female led and founded Irish tech startup. When I joined, there were maybe four dozen employees when I left that we were had doubled in size. And, you know, I would have come at it, you know, from the really more from the angle of wanting to get experience in SaaS sales in, you know, in selling SaaS products, which is.

[00:05:10] So it was an amazing education landing in a startup environment, which is the Wild West, you know, people are, you know, trying to satisfy investors and we're trying to make sales and get customers and grow our brand awareness in the marketplace.

[00:05:28] And I felt very fortunate to have landed into a company that not only was led by a really, you know, tenacious and courageous visionary, you know, I don't know if either of you've ever worked at a startup, but like the types of people it takes to start a company and build something. You know, I think those are a particular type of metal DNA that's there. Not everybody has it, you know, so that's a very particular type of a person to get to work with.

[00:05:57] You know, my friends who work at ADP or work at CloudPay or Papaya, they very rarely would get to interact with the CEO of ADP or Papaya. I was getting to chat and learn from the likes of Fidelma about the payroll industry and about lots of other things. Similarly, she had really had brought in. Do you know Mary Holland? Name is familiar, but we haven't met her. Yeah, so Mary would have been, and I hope I'm not misrepresenting the bio here, but she would have been really.

[00:06:27] Involved in the GPMI. It used to be called what's now called payroll org. And so she is now retired, but would be a very knowledgeable leader and someone who has influenced the whole generation of payroll pros through education. I meet people all the time who say, oh, Mary taught my class.

[00:06:49] I was in Mary's class, you know, so she was at the time working for Payslip as well and supporting with her payroll knowledge, which was hugely instrumental. So I was able to meet and learn from mentors like Mary and similarly a guy called Mark Simons, who was our VP of sales, who is a great character and would have spent about a decade working for Workday in their kind of global payroll partner environment.

[00:07:17] So it was a crash course in learning about the industry. And because we were a startup, because we were hustling, you know, to get our name out there into the marketplace. I was traveling all around the world, meeting people, meeting influencers and quickly realized the value of a personal brand on LinkedIn. And, you know, a marketing budget can get you so far. A LinkedIn company page can get you so far.

[00:07:45] But what I have learned and developed over the last four years is the algorithm seems to really favor an individual's profile and individual's content. And if you know who you're speaking to and if you care about who you're speaking to and you highlighted some of my background before I worked in the payroll world, I have a deep compassion for human beings and a care for other people.

[00:08:09] So through content I create on LinkedIn, it's been a really fun project to engage and get to know payroll professionals all around the world. People who are processing payrolls, people who are serving payroll people through technology, through some of the educational organizations like Payroll Org or the Global Payroll Alliance. So, you know, that's what got me involved in the global payroll world really.

[00:08:36] And I just sort of threw myself in and now everywhere I go, I attend conferences around the world. People usually say, hey, I know you from LinkedIn. I follow you on LinkedIn in the context of calls. So in that perspective, I feel very fortunate because a lot of my friends who are, you know, leading global payroll projects, they know their team and they might know people in their network from conferences.

[00:09:01] But probably over the last four years, you know, I've spoken to hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of global payroll leaders through being in an environment where you're demoing a software to somebody. You're meeting people at conferences.

[00:09:17] And now in the context of payroll minds, where we're the world's global payroll experts, you know, shout out to Bart and Herben and Jobe and the Dutch guys leading the charge with this great vision of payroll minds. Right. That we're going to create a boutique global payroll advisory firm that provides staffing, that provides transformation services that can help implement, that could cover your maternity leave. And that's been a really cool project.

[00:09:47] And I got to meet Carl, the new CEO of Workday when I was at Workday Rising in Amsterdam. And I got a chance to talk to him and I told him about the payroll minds vision and what we're building. And he said, that's really great because the industry needs a firm that's really focusing on global payroll. And we're finding that the big four, the big five or whatever you want to call it, have loads of really talented, bright people who could help your organization.

[00:10:14] But they might not have the battle scars of decades in the global payroll space, which our firm has. So it's been really fun to learn more about the industry from a different angle. You know, when you're at a software company that's striving to grow your business, the answer to most questions are use our product, you know. So I had a very, I had one angle and lens through which I was looking at the industry where I learned a ton.

[00:10:43] And I, and shout out to Payslip. It's a global payroll control platform, a really brilliant and innovative way of solving a lot of the problems that multinationals have with global payroll through integration, through automation, through really giving teams control of their data, which allows the whole organization to benefit from the insights of that data and really allows global payroll to have a seat at the table.

[00:11:11] So, so to speak with leadership, because the, you can so much more easily glean the insights that can really serve and reduce risk for a company. But now, right, I'm looking at it from a new lens and I'm in Dublin, but I still go to the Netherlands every month to hang out with the team there. We have people in Chicago and the United States now, you know, shout out to Kira Rubiano and the team she's leading over there. Did you guys talk to Kira? Yes, we have Kira on. Okay.

[00:11:38] So, you know, Kira, she's a really brilliant person with an amazing story. And so I'm glad you got to meet her. So yeah, we're building something over here and I'm excited about it. So it's cool to meet both of you, but to kind of put a bow on, that's how I found my way into global payroll really is that I was working, you know, in the world of sales really, but found an niche and then built a big network within that niche.

[00:12:05] And then kind of decided to double down on it and go all in. You know, I have lots of friends in Dublin is a great spot for SaaS sales jobs. You know, you get a job at Salesforce or at HubSpot or at wherever. But I decided I love the global payroll community. I've got to meet amazing people all around the world. And so I want to keep.

[00:12:27] What if I told you that your boss skydives, Tim in marketing is a magician and Sam in accounting does sums in his head while standing on his hands. Seeing sides of the people you work with but never see, sides that inform and inspire their work and that can inspire yours is what the talent show is all about. Email me, Tom Alexander, host of the talent show at talent show at backbone inc.com. And show us what you got. I look forward to seeing you on the talent show.

[00:12:58] Figuring out how we can serve them and how we can have fun together. Because if you know me, you know that I always like to try to bring it back to something that's really real. We spend all these days staring into these screens and then we're not in these screens. We're staring at the smaller screens, right? And the one thing we all have in common, and I'm going to go super deep here, guys. So look out. But is that we're all going to die? Yes, sir. That's true. And in the meantime, can we be kind to each other?

[00:13:28] Can we have fun? Can we bring playfulness, joy, love into how we're treating each other and how we're doing business with each other? And that's at the heart of it for me. And if you were, you know, in your research wall looking, I used to work in the world of mental health. I worked on the National Suicide Prevention Crisis Line. I worked with at-risk youths, you know, in a wilderness therapy setting. I come working with anybody for me at my best. And I'm a flawed human being like everybody else.

[00:13:57] But at my best, I hope I'm looking at people through the eyes of compassion and care that we're all just, you know, little babies, right? We're all these little babies and we all grew up and now we're wearing adult clothes. And we're all pretending to know what we're doing. Yeah. And we're trying to get on with it and provide for our families and have fun and hopefully do something that's a bit meaningful and leaves this place better for the next generation, you know? Yeah. Amazing, man. I mean, yeah. I was going to ask you, and that's a funny thing.

[00:14:27] I was going to ask you about your passion to help others, right? And I wanted to ask, how has that helped you along your sales and global payroll journey? And has that, have you found yourself, you know, not only being, you know, the person who comes in and wants to be kind, but also motivating people when it comes to your role? Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting, Kanyas.

[00:14:55] Well, I think for me, it connects to leadership. And I think that the heart of leadership is service and the heart of service is love. So I think if we're wanting to, in our professional environments, motivate others or influence the culture of people's workplaces, if we can come at it from a, from an attitude of not so much, what can I get, but what can I give?

[00:15:21] That is probably, you know, and I'm thinking of all sorts of examples where I haven't been that way, but I'm, you know, I think my best, I would hope that's what I would aspire to be. And, and it's in, it's important, like, you know, have you seen these stats that say, I don't know if it's stats, but like that there are the two people that influence your mental health the most in your life are your significant other or your spouse and your manager. Wow. Wow.

[00:15:51] Because they're the person and the old adage, people don't leave jobs, they leave managers. So like, you know, so the way I look at it and I've, and as I mentioned, I've been at startups, I've been very close to people in leadership positions and learned about leadership from these really like courageous, tenacious people who have the, the guts to put themselves out there in the marketplace and go to market with something. So I think that we have to keep in mind that like how we are and how we show up impacts other people.

[00:16:20] And if we want to have fun together and have a positive workplace, like we need to remember that, you know, cause I don't know, but I don't know if that answers your question. But in terms of sales, in terms of that, like, you know, I think if you, I think that no, nothing gives people the ick more like to use a very Gen Z term, like nothing gives people the ick more than feeling like you're talking to somebody who has an agenda.

[00:16:48] And they're leading you or they're trying to manipulate you to do something. And I think for me, and I am in a sales role and I have been in quota carrying roles, but I think you almost have to trick yourself into forgetting that's what you're doing and just show up and be present with other people and listen. And, and you can learn a lot about people from listening to them and asking questions.

[00:17:15] And one of my favorite quotes that guides me is from Maya Angelou and I'm probably misquoted a little bit, but she said something, or maybe it was in one of her books or poems, but it was something like people won't remember what you wore this, that, or the other thing, but they'll remember how you made them feel.

[00:17:34] So, and I think if we can give people, especially in a professional environment where things can be so like transactional, people are just viewed as cogs in a wheel and particularly like shut up to the payroll people who don't always get their day in the sun or get their flowers, you know. And I think when we give people a chance to feel heard and seen and appreciated, that makes everything go along easier. And listen, if you are somebody who's going to the marketplace, I have a payroll product or I have a service.

[00:18:03] If you're working with who, who, what type of people do you want to work with? Do you want to work with people who, who know you and care about, have a bit of sincere care for you as a human being and don't just view you as a revenue generating activity that they can tick off. So they show their boss that they're meeting their KPIs for that week, you know, but it's tricky and, you know, and shout out to the sales people as well who have so much pressure on them. Mm-hmm .

[00:18:27] You know, to me quotas and then the people who are pressuring them who are getting pressure from investors to get their money back. Like it's not, I know I met somebody the other day who was in sales and left and he said, it's so great. I just, I didn't realize the chronic pressure and stress I was living with being in a quota carrying role, you know? So, wow. So, so I'd say that that's a bit of how, where I came come from influences, how I try to show up. And I often fail.

[00:18:56] I'm in Ireland, Samuel Beckett, the Irish playwright was very, had a quote in one of his books. Ever tried, ever failed. Try again, fail again, fail better. Try again, fail again, fail better. So I'm saying all these beautiful things. And there are probably people who know me who are laughing being like, oh, you were such a grump the other day. You weren't embodying that at all, Michael, you know? That's humanity, right? That's the human. Yeah. But I'm a human, I'm a flawed man. Oh my gosh.

[00:19:23] But I hope I can fail better the next time and hopefully be a little better than the day before. That's great. That's great. One, I think you need your own show. You are an amazing speaker. I mean, I think. Oh, cheers. Right? Well, like it's just chilling. Absolutely. Sitting back, I'm watching, you know, like I'm just enjoying you speaking and drop some knowledge on us. What you made me think of in there was, you know, you said you doubled down on payroll. And I think that's what me and Walt did three years ago, right?

[00:19:52] We were just working, processing payroll and stabilizing a payroll department for a company. And I was just like, oh man, you know, folks have these dreams of building and doing something else. We've always had that entrepreneurial spirit. And then it just kind of hit us like, wait a minute, we can do this. And, you know, we really started doing this because we are building an app. We want, we're building something to bring to market. We're bootstrapping it ourselves. So it takes time.

[00:20:22] And yeah. Oh, really? I didn't know that about you at all. Tell me about your app. It's more of a, what the phrase that we've heard now called payroll management system or solution. It's not a processing, you know, we're not trying to be a processor or a bureau like cutting checks. It's more to help folks get organized. It's, you know, born from payroll professionals built for payroll professionals, but it definitely has a significant impact to companies bottom line and it'll help them streamline.

[00:20:51] So we're still building that more to come. But then we started the podcast and the podcast became the thing. And at that time, there was only Nick Day. Nick Day is only like 50 episodes ahead of us. So, right. And so we kind of, we jumped into the, that content market with him. And since then, oh my gosh, there's so many ads. And we were a proponent of that saying, come on, there's no content here for payroll people.

[00:21:19] Come and join us, like help us build this. So you just made me think of that when you said you doubled down into payroll and it's true now, like now my life is consumed with payroll. Right. And I feel great about it. And it's funny thing. Bart just sent me a DM on LinkedIn and he's like, Hey man, did you do the thing I asked you for? And I was like, I'm going to do it. So, you know, shout out to Bart and all the payroll minds. I love you guys, man.

[00:21:45] And then just kind of love seeing these new products and services develop in the market. And, you know, what the growing entrepreneurial spirits that are happening in payroll. We've had a ton of great founders here. And then speaking of that global experience and global build, right? Do you run across clients that have like misconceptions about expanding internationally? And if so, how do you, what do they get wrong?

[00:22:14] Or if at all, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're getting into the payroll questions now and I'm starting to sweat here. I've spoken about everything I know about all the touchy feely stuff. And now we're getting into the deep waters here. So, so are there misconceptions clients have about expanding internationally?

[00:22:35] Well, I have met global payroll leaders, shared services leaders, and they're very attached to, I think, a legacy way of solving global payroll that they think that they need to consolidate their vendors is something that I hear over and over again. Oh, the problem is we need to consolidate our vendors. We need to go down to one contract.

[00:23:02] And that, listen, like ADP and the likes, that type of model, you might call it an aggregator model. Like they are massively successful and are the biggest kids on the block. And that's one way to do it. And if there's misconceptions, I think, and I have to remember this is that I've talked to people about transforming their global payroll every day, but for most people leading in global

[00:23:28] payroll in their career, they might change, do a transformation project once, maybe twice in their whole career. Right. And so we can't take that for granted. But so they might not really have done the research or they might not know what's happening on the cutting edge. That could be a different way of solving their problems without needing to do a massive rip and replace or a massive trans, you know, changing of everything.

[00:23:57] There are different models that do this. Now there are tools out there like Payslip, which I just mentioned, but also PaysR or PayBix or DataScale HR now, you know, is a hugely kind of AI and machine learning type of tool that can achieve a lot of the same things. But you don't have to get rid of all your vendors who are processing payroll for you in different countries anymore. Now, listen, every company is different and every leadership is different.

[00:24:25] For some companies, maybe the best solution really is to go with one vendor. But for others, if they're happy with 80% of things and they just need to change a few things and they could just get a tool that helps integrate, automate, give them visibility of data. And a lot of people, I guess, to answer the question, if there's misconceptions about expanding internationally or what to do with your international payroll, it's just that if, for instance, you were just keeping your head down, doing your thing for 10 years

[00:24:53] and then popped up and now it's time to change, the marketplace is completely different now from what it was. And so that might be one thing, is that there are, there just might be. Da meint mein Arzt letztens, machen Sie mal A und jetzt mal E-Rezept. Denn mit der Shop-Apotheke-App kannst du jetzt bis zu 10 Euro auf jede E-Rezept-Bestellung sparen. Einfach App öffnen, Krankenkassenkarte mit E-Rezept dranhalten und schon kannst du dein verschreibungspflichtiges Medikament direkt nach Hause liefern lassen.

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[00:26:02] Gutscheinbedingungen auf die E-Rezept-Bestellung und bis zum nächsten Mal. Und vielleicht ist es auch nicht, dass die Unternehmen nicht adaptieren, die neue E-Rezept-Bestellung bis zum nächsten Mal.

[00:26:45] Das wir können, oder das wir, ich würde wirklich hoffen, dass wir würden, eher als nur die gleichen, die gleiche, die gleiche, die gleiche, die gleiche. Aber du könntest diese neue E-Rezept-Bestellung und die alten Modellen, die alten Modellen, die Dinge und die Dinge, die eigentliche, das ist eigentlich genau das wir, was wir brauchen. Wir brauchen, wir brauchen, wir brauchen, wir brauchen, wir einfach nur, wir brauchen, so es einfach nur. Es stimmt. So, das ist mir, dass ich, dass ich, zu sprechen, knowledgefully über. No, du hast es. Du hast es. Du hast es.

[00:27:12] question in that same vein for you in terms of technology and how it's transforming payroll in your opinion what's in what's one innovation that you see it's helping um clients and pros in the payroll field and are there any that you think are overhyped well it's interesting like i

[00:27:34] hosted a panel of payroll experts in amsterdam four or five months ago and i asked the audience there might have been i don't know maybe 40 50 people in the room how many of you used chat gpt one year ago and maybe there were like four or five people who raised their hand one-tenth the crowd and then i said how many of you use it today and almost everybody raised their

[00:27:59] hand and if there's one tool that has come in that isn't even really i mean chat gpt isn't a payroll tool but it is changing how we do work and it's difficult to go anywhere and not hear people talking about ai or saying that their tool is ai even if it isn't using ai but it's just such a great thing for branding everything is ai now so so i don't know if i'm answering your question

[00:28:24] helped or is it overhyped well no i i think that it does help but that but that you know payroll superheroes are still the ones in most cases where they're still manually inputting things from excel spreadsheets and doing v lookups and munging together spreadsheets unless in some instances where you

[00:28:49] really have successfully implemented implementation of these tools is a whole other topic like the people will sell you the moon and the stars but can it be implemented or how long is it going to take to be implemented sometimes there's these never-ending implementation projects and and if you get it wrong in the implementation then as good however good the tool is if it wasn't integrated properly or implemented properly so those are some thoughts we haven't seen it impact payroll yet

[00:29:16] in any significant way and i just we the company i'm with now where you know we went to market recently and you know i've challenged vendors because they're like oh we have ai and i'm like oh really how for payroll let me see and they're like oh well we have a chat bot that you can ask questions and it knows your policies and i was like well that's not payroll cool tool thanks yeah that's not ai impacting payroll and i think it's time i think it's gonna be i would imagine folks there are some

[00:29:44] companies that are working on it but you know it's like anita latink warns us right ai still hallucinates something that we need in payroll you know we need to you know that's we don't want hallucination in in that um i do we promote chat gpt to use it for payroll because there are some things that's not really payroll but it's a good tool i have used it to look up compliance stuff but i always

[00:30:13] double check it against the actual agency or government site to make sure it's right so you know you still you have to be careful especially when it comes to compliance using it but yeah you're spot on there because it it's not there yet payroll you know these hr payroll companies are like yeah we have ai but it's still just a chat bot search tool and it's it is very cool it may cut down on the number of

[00:30:39] emails that you get from employees asking questions and even managers absolutely amazing tool but it's not there yet for payroll processing we had a show where we speculated what we would want from it absolutely like i just want to talk to the system and it do the things right i don't want to do the vlookups anymore i don't want to build these reports or for several different ones i want you to let's do i want ai to do it for me and then i can put it to who i need to present it to and um you know

[00:31:07] i do predict that ai will take some of the entry-level payroll jobs in the next few years but i don't think come i think we're a long way from companies putting it on autopilot for payroll and not having a human liaison right so i think we'll be payroll pilots in the future and be the ones that interact

[00:31:30] with the ai to get payroll done so i urge payroll for folks to usher it in learn it right i'm studying for the cpp right now but after that it's ai right it's you know how do i prompt chat gpt because i keep seeing these things these posts that say folks over 40 use chat gpt like google and i'm like dang that's

[00:31:52] me but you know so how do i improve that process how do i leverage this tool to the max right yeah so yeah interesting good but no but i'm glad that you were asking hard questions because yeah having been on the sales end of things like you know keep them honest and if they're claiming they have ai like a lot of people say they have ai and they don't right exactly or they have something that's on the or they have something that's on the roadmap and it eventually will be you know so so keep them honest

[00:32:21] because like they need to learn as well like we're all learning how to best do our jobs and work things but yeah they need to realize that i think they have to be able to tell it straight and be real about what their product can do and what their product can't do and if they're gonna if they want you to partner and invest in them you need to be able to be transparent thank you so much yep i'm having that conversation with sales folks now like if you want to be a partner you got to be transparent i mean i don't know how what else to say but here's a here's hopefully maybe an easier question

[00:32:51] here's an easier question for you michael what if what would you what advice would you have for somebody payroll pro that wants to make that transition to you know leadership sales or a non-transactional role let's say sales specifically because that's your wheelhouse wow well i think that would be the kind of dream person for some of these companies right if you look

[00:33:16] at all these big payroll vendors with all these venture capital funding if they had someone who actually had payroll experience to be the person because usually the people that i meet conferences are usually just like me have never processed payroll if they were wanting to transition into a leadership role into right being in more of a commercial role i would say build your personal

[00:33:44] brand on linkedin and invest in yourself or get your better yet get your company to invest in you there are really great coaches out there who can help you because it is an amazing tool that can help grow your professional network and you own it and you take it with you wherever you go no matter who you

[00:34:07] work for and if you and you'll learn about a lot of different things from from getting into it because you learn you learn about marketing you learn about writing and content creation who is your ideal like who's your audience what's your niche audience who's the specific type of person who you want to speak to who you want to serve and you can create content and don't use chat to be to you to write the posts obvious when it when

[00:34:37] they do you can tell see it a mile away but if you want you could use it to help get some ideas for things to get started or help you make a content calendar that's serving the type of people you want to talk to and and be and it takes courage to put yourself out there and like when i first started posting on linkedin there are people who were saying oh it's so cringe or we're making for mocking it or putting

[00:35:01] it down you know saying but i kept at it and you know have grown my following i think when i started a pace that by maybe had one or two thousand people i was connected to and i'm connected to over 18 000 people now all in the global payroll space and the workday ecosystem a bit focused there but it's something i'd really encourage people to do because i think it's a personal brand and more and more i think

[00:35:31] companies are going to be seeing that's how they can reach their audience because people more and more want to talk to people and feel safer and trust people who they feel familiar with it's changing like we live in the age of tiktok and where we follow people who we've never met and learn all about what they cook what they do with their husband what they wear we get ready with them we put their makeup on with them we do all these things and it's going to change i think how companies sell their products

[00:36:00] and and so if yeah if someone is in payroll first of all you're at a great start because you actually know stuff about payroll and you live it i've had to learn the hard way by talking to people and meeting people and reading and learning but if you already have that experience you can write about it and then and you know and i think it's the payroll community is a very passionate and kind community like i don't

[00:36:27] know of other niches like i don't and maybe maybe i'm wrong maybe in the it support linkedin community there's a really passionate active linkedin community with influencers people writing books and maybe there is but i don't hang out in those spaces right tim all i see is that wow you have you know people who are writing books and selling them all through linkedin you have anita latink you have

[00:36:54] barred and max now has come up with his book i think ian giles is making a book and there's probably others who i'm forgetting and the payroll community is really passionate and they i think have been neglected for a long time it's been seen as a back office function and people are really excited and i was really actually moved by it actually i was really touched like i was in orlando at payroll

[00:37:22] congress gulsier and like it was my first time there i had known tons of people who'd been there for years i just had never made it and the passion and excitement that people had and i could tell like they're giving out awards they were doing these things up on the big main stage and like i could see how it was energizing people and like filling people up with life and energy to go out and do

[00:37:47] something that like i can appreciate is not always a fun thing to do and can be tedious and hard and like i've run a lot of polls on linkedin of the global payroll community and i'll ask like how many hours a week are you working and like almost everybody was saying they were working 40 to 50 50 to 60 hours a like yeah and like and that's intense and that's not and that's you know if i'm thinking of the payroll

[00:38:15] community as people i hope that these technologies and innovations can just make that poll result be everyone saying i'm working 40 hours a week so you have the rest of the time with your family like there's that there's this book the top five regrets of the dying it's a really interesting book and it's this from this woman who worked in hospice care and i won't remember all of them but one of the top regrets of people on their deathbed is i wish i hadn't worked so hard and i wish i would have made

[00:38:44] more time to spend time with my family and my friends i wish i would have had the courage to do something that i loved that i was really passionate about and as i think about if i'm trying to look at the payroll community and professionals through that lens of like we want happy healthy people who are loving their jobs and having rich wonderful lives outside of work with their families and their communities yeah i hope that this technology can influence that in a really positive way

[00:39:12] so we have great work-life balances for the payroll professionals yeah awesome so so and you can tell me if you don't want to answer this next question okay oh so is there one moment or mistake or instance in your professional journey that taught you a valuable lesson hi i'm steven rothberg and i'm

[00:39:38] jeanette leads and together we're the co-hosts of the high volume hiring podcast are you involved in hiring dozens or even hundreds of employees a year if so you know that the typical sourcing tools tactics and strategies they just don't scale yeah our bi-weekly podcast features news tips case studies and interviews with the world's leading experts about the good the bad and the ugly when

[00:40:03] it comes to high volume hiring make sure to subscribe today yeah there is but let me think about what i wanted what i want to say okay is there a mistake that taught me a valuable lesson or an instance and maybe not necessarily a mistake but well my first manager i pace that this character mark simons who i

[00:40:29] mentioned before and he was a great character and a great kind of you know everybody goes on their journey and they meet their like their gandalf or their obi-wan kenobi you know on your hero's journey and maybe he was mine at the beginning he had a lot of funny sayings and he said he would always say it's not a mistake until it leaves the office oh my god yeah and then they'd say sometimes some

[00:40:52] days you're the pigeon and other days you're the statue and today we were the pigeon or statue depending on what happened that day but it's not a mistake until it leaves the office i mean check i think and that just means be connected to who you're working with run things by other people get feedback don't work as a lone wolf which is very easy when you're working remote

[00:41:19] isolated or not is that right for payroll too yes but yeah but yeah but i yeah i'd have i feel like i might it might pop into my head later like oh that's a really great story i could tell about a time where i made a mistake and i learned so much but i'm not nothing no real great yarn is popping up for me now unfortunately that's great story though something yeah about paychecks like we'll like you

[00:41:43] know someone's check or oh geez you guys have it yeah like you know a team member might say oh my gosh i made a mistake and i'm like whoa wait did we pay on it yet then it wasn't a mistake you caught it right like the way you put it it's not a mistake until it leaves the office it's not a mistake until it hits somebody's paycheck basically what i tell yeah yeah folks so yeah i love that all right so now

[00:42:08] wrapping it up here looking ahead what excites you the most about the future of payroll i think what i just was talking about is really if i'm being really real i hope that because i've met hundreds and hundreds of payroll professionals who work really hard don't always get much acknowledgement

[00:42:32] thanks appreciation sometimes they do i shouldn't say that they don't but i hope that technology can enable these folks to have really sustainable professional lives so they can have just really rich full lives that aren't dominated by work now listen if you're so passionate

[00:42:56] about your job you want to work 60 hours a week that's great and like it's rare people i think who have and if you really are in your passion yeah you don't you're living your purpose and that's you fantastic then you're in the right job but that's not going to be everybody and some people are just trying to get a paycheck and they're trying to support their family and i hope that technology ai can just make things more sustainable for people so that they can just have better mental health a better

[00:43:24] physical health have more time to be with people they love and enjoy being alive yeah awesome yeah all right we're gonna play a little game here called this or that you can choose one or the other neither both again just something to get to know you beyond payroll well you'll start to do the first four i'll do the last yeah let's go all right so coffee or tea coffee okay do you prefer

[00:43:51] early mornings or late nights late nights okay are you an excel wizard or an automation enthusiast oh i'm neither i'm awful at all i've gotten better i've gotten a lot better but i'm not good at either of them all right the last one

[00:44:15] for me is do you prefer to be in office or remote remote okay all right beach vacation or a city escape oh man they're both really good right no i yeah i think a city escape i would love a holiday like in new york city oh nice yeah i miss it i'm a new yorker originally so now i kind of

[00:44:41] yeah oh yeah i go back i'm like miss the city life of it all you know and it's my ideal is kind of what i'm shooting for now is to be a snowbird what they call it over here is basically you spend your summers in the north and then you spend your winters in the south so you get away from that cold weather nice all right next one podcast or audiobooks i yeah i don't actually listen to audiobooks

[00:45:07] at all i'll read i'll read a book but i listen to podcasts yeah all right well what do you prefer pouring through the data or actually helping people yeah i mean i don't really because i'm not processing payroll like i i'm not seeing payroll data or any data i'm a data person like i'll look at data sets right yeah i can love like getting into research getting into the weeds going down rabbit

[00:45:36] polls doing research i do love that but i think that yeah there's a certain kind of the brain gets a really nice dopamine hit when you're making contact with other people when you're making impact on somebody else i think yeah that that's the form and fuzzies there yeah last one or europe well you can say both it's fine all right i can't say both yeah they're both special they're both

[00:46:06] really special i love very different things about exactly yeah i'm gonna say both that's all i told i was oh of course i told what recently i was like i want to live in and me and my wife like love london and you know different that and characters fictional of course i was like i want to yeah a year at least at some point you know great that's awesome that's awesome i had no idea you were originally from the u.s

[00:46:29] and your journey took you over there and it's awesome michael you are missing out on a career and like hosting some type of show you're a great orator you're a great speaker man keep doing what you're doing it's such an honor to have you on thank you so much for making the time for us maybe this is your home man if there's anything else you need to want to come back on and you know we talk about and we're trying to you know waiting for the day to be able to get kira back on

[00:46:55] we got max coming up soon he's talking about the book yeah his second time too we've had him on already but when he dropped the book we were like hey come back on you know already bought it a great repeat yeah oh god now you know max is amazing so he'd be and again love to have you back on at some point and thank you so much man we appreciate it thank you really great to meet you both and hope i hope to get more to know more about both of you next time because you got to know about me

[00:47:25] yeah so michael for anybody listening that may be interested in your services or what you provide where can they find you yeah we're payrollminds.com i want to say we're on linkedin we have a new website that's up with some really cool branding actually that's really dreamy i have it on a t-shirt here i'll grab it so i didn't know this because i'm american the dutch have a really beautiful

[00:47:51] would it be considered a textile tradition i don't know but it's called delf blue it's like a pattern owl here's this beautiful owl here and it has that beautiful blue and white like you might sometimes see it on a plate yes yes and so the new branding apparel minds we have these delf blue owls octopuses i'm looking at it now it's amazing eagles and it's really cool because the idea is

[00:48:17] like they're kind of these metaphors for what peril people do like the octopus is the most intelligent creature under the sea it has all these tentacles doing all these different things the owl is the wisest bird its head can rotate you know and see everything 360 degrees so no there's some very kind of imaginative whimsical payroll branding that's happening with peril minds right now that i think is very unique and actually kind of beautiful but you don't always see things that are

[00:48:43] lovely to look at when you're looking at branding of a business i love it it's amazing shout out to to franz in harlem and the netherlands for doing that work but yeah i would say find peril minds and check out bart's book as well it's called the payroll mind bart van der storm's book check out kira kira rubiano on linkedin her whole brand mind body payroll that she's building it's great really

[00:49:08] brilliant smart person based in chicago so yeah check out all those cool cats and let's get connected for sure thanks friend thank you so much thanks guys yeah please folks engage like share subscribe tell a friend to tell a friend and go check out michael steen go check out payrollmines.com and until the next time we love you take care guys good luck