Talkin' Pay Transparency with HR Data Labs David Turetsky (Episode 90)

[00:00:00] Welcome to our podcast, It's About Payroll, where your host Brian Eskabar and Walter William Duncan the third. Whether you're new to the payroll game or season veteran, we have something for you. Welcome back folks, it's episode 90 of It's About Payroll and we have a really special

[00:00:21] guest today, David Turetsky, HR Data Labs and newly appointed CHRO of Salary.com as we talk about Pay Transparency and before that like always, my feel is part in the walk, how you doing today sir.

[00:00:35] Man I'm good, it's good to connect with again with David, we were a guest on his show early early and then he decided to come over here, we're excited to have him as a guest, again

[00:00:46] congratulations to you David for your recent promotion and I'm excited to talk about today's topic which is Pay Transparency. Welcome to Duryl David. Thank you both, I'm very proud of both of you for how it's about peril has gone and can't wait to be on your show.

[00:01:03] Thank you very much sir. Yeah we were just talking before we start recording how long we know each other David and I came across during work, just doing work stuff and Payroll world and one thing led

[00:01:15] to another and I discovered him and he mentored us and it was just an amazing ride it's been for us and to be able to have David on the show right now, truly are on of us. And so thank you yeah we'll jump right in David.

[00:01:28] So we're talking about Pay Transparency. Can you tell us what that is and what that really means to payroll? This episode is presented by TimeTrike Go, the Simply Better and Employee Time Clock software that is going to make your life easier.

[00:01:44] In addition to the unique graphical employee time card that helps you quickly identify and fix mistakes. TimeTrike Go is excited to announce it's now compatible with QuickBooks Desktop, providing effortless data transfer and reduced errors.

[00:02:01] TimeTrike Go will not only save you time and money each week but the easy to understand user interface and the ability to turn a tablet into a time clock will get you and your team up and going in just minutes.

[00:02:15] Find out what a simply better solution can do for your business to learn more and sign up for your 14 day free trial. Go to www.TimeTrike Go, that's www.timetrike Go.com or you can call 888-321-9922.

[00:02:44] Let's go, let's go, let me give you where pay transparency has been to tell you where it is now. So back in the early 90s I was that guy in the HR world and compensation who used

[00:03:01] to say to people if you talk about pay, if you talk about your pay between each other, what are cooler talk then that's grounds for firing. Now that's the early 90s, right? And that was it was a scary time because people still were in the dark about what

[00:03:17] each other was getting paid. Yeah, there was that talk and people talked and people got upset about it and people were really jealous about what each other were making. Well, there was a reason for that and they lacked the information to understand how much

[00:03:31] this job actually should get paid and why. So that led to where we are today with these ginormous pay gaps between people of color and we honest white people and males and females and it's bad. The pay gaps are awful.

[00:03:49] And so pay transparency is a way for us to be able to get a level playing field with understanding how and why and what pay will be for a job before you actually even apply for the job where a trade transparency is today is states are regulating or

[00:04:10] mandating that when a company has a job that they're looking for candidates on when they're posting a job that they put in what the starting rates are for this role. Now, it's not just anything you can't just say 60,000 to $360,000 per job. You've got to be accurate.

[00:04:30] You have to be on target for what you expect to pay this role. It can't be really wide. It's got to be narrowed to the extent at which you can have some variations in experience or in education or whatever, but you still can't pay dramatically differently between

[00:04:47] two different people. Some of the regulations that exist around transparency provide for people who are currently in jobs to ask questions about how did you come up with the pay for my role.

[00:05:00] So for example, California, an employee can ask, where did you come up with this from and give me more information? Whereas others are basically just saying that when you post a role, you need to have that relevant range around the job.

[00:05:13] This is still a statement by state basis. But what the intention is to take those people who have been traditionally underpaid and provide them with the right information as an employee or as a candidate and at least

[00:05:28] have them understand from a level playing field perspective, what could I expect if I apply for that job? Okay. Now, I got to ask about some because you said something that means we'll debate about the show all the time.

[00:05:44] That water cooler conversation first, the hosting of a job range. Those are two very different things. Do you feel like pay transparency is people are allowed now to talk about their pay? But do you recommend that? Do you encourage that water cooler talk is okay now?

[00:06:11] Here's the thing, we're all emotional people, right? We all get jealous, we get angry. But the law says you can. The law actually says to companies, you can't fire people or the law is doing that for doing that. Yeah. Okay.

[00:06:28] Whether or not it's a good idea Brian is a different story. So every time we talk about pay, it needs to come across in a very unemotional way. Pay is in a very emotional topic.

[00:06:39] Three of us started talking and we all, and Walt and I found out that Brian is getting paid double what we are. And we do exactly the same thing. Walt and I are going to be pissed. Walt, we're going to say how is it that Brian got that?

[00:06:52] Brian's relatively new in his job. Brian just graduated college or just graduated high school. And you know what, tell me the reasons why we're going to get mad. That's not the place where this is intended to address.

[00:07:05] This is intended to address is that the three of us talk to our boss or talk to HR from an emotionless perspective and we find out why it happened. Now that means the companies, and this is the second part of what I want to discuss is

[00:07:19] companies need to react by being able to educate employees and managers on what does all this stuff mean? Yes. Now, to point where we discover that Brian gets paid double what Walt and I can do is go

[00:07:33] to HR and say, hey, I know that Brian just got hired. And Brian's getting paid double to us. The market must have shifted. What are you going to do for Walt and I?

[00:07:44] And the correct answer is well, we're working on a plan to get you guys, market adjustments, to get to where the market is today. Because the worst thing that could happen is Brian gets in, he's double us. And then Walt says, I heard Brian gets paid double.

[00:08:01] I'm leaving. Yep. One of the things that is the downside of this, but what will happen is companies are going to start to do their own research. They're going to create rules. They're going to educate the workforce and managers and be able to provide those mechanisms

[00:08:17] necessary for Walt and I to get paid more over time to get us to where Brian is or they might say, hey, listen, Brian's the rock star. And he is, Brian's the rock star of this world.

[00:08:31] And he gets paid double because we can't find anybody who's like him and by the way, you guys are going to discover Walt and David, you're going to discover if you have to work with him. They're going to help you get better.

[00:08:40] And he's going to rise the level of this department. There are things there are reasons why people get paid more. There are reasons why transparency makes this a more mature discussion. But in the interim, if companies don't do their work of being able to train people and

[00:08:56] have them understand why do those gaps exist, why are we paying differently than they're going to have a lot of turnover on their hands and they're going to have a lot of expense. That's unnecessary. That makes a lot of sense.

[00:09:09] Yeah, it makes a perfect sense, especially with the companies, the portion of it. Yeah. And one of the things that I think is interesting about this is the data is out there. You can't hide from it. People can go to Glastor or people can go to salary.com.

[00:09:24] People can go to other areas of the internet and find out how much people are getting paid for these roles. So we live in the internet age. We live in a world where you can't hide this stuff anymore.

[00:09:37] And to be on the other side of it and to be proactive about it and to be honest and open and transparent, that's where we've got to go because those pay gaps that exist have got to get broken.

[00:09:50] We've got to stop paying women of color differently than men just because. And I was thinking about this before I came on, I'm like, well, it's not just the posting that's the problem. It's sometimes when we're in the hiring process, people have that unconscious bias about,

[00:10:09] well, this job requires a lot of overtime and maybe that woman's got a few kids and maybe they're the primary care care taker. So they won't be able to be to work in that overtime. That's wrong from a transparency perspective.

[00:10:24] If we tell you it's got this number of hours and we tell you it's got this overtime, we have to make sure the person makes this decision. I can do that overtime. I can spend the time not making the company say, oh, well, I'm going to guess because

[00:10:38] that's exactly why these gaps exist. It's because people make assumptions or companies make assumptions they shouldn't make and that's what sets this pay gap up to actually happen. Wow, so yeah, whatever. Yeah, I don't just perfect segue to the last piece of this and is how do companies

[00:10:57] make sure they compliant? Well, so the first thing is I'm not a lawyer and the law is really important in the letter of the law is important, especially if you're operating in California. There are some significant rules that you need to follow even Colorado just implemented some

[00:11:13] really interesting and significant rules around pay transparency. And Illinois has really gone very far in trying to create the right environment from a legal perspective, from a regulatory perspective where pay equity and pay transparency linked together.

[00:11:31] And so the first thing that you need to do is talk to your legal counsel and find out what it is that's there from a legal perspective and where you're operating where you may not be operating but you may be hiring people.

[00:11:45] So if a company is in Delaware, but they actually have employees or they have candidates who are in California, they still need to satisfy the regulations in California for those California employees or those California candidates.

[00:12:00] You can't hide yourself by saying, oh, Delaware, I don't have to do with that. You do. And what my suggestion is trying to choose what I like to call the lowest common denominator. If you're operating in lots of different areas and you're operating in a state which is

[00:12:16] really rigorous about their legislation and their regulations around pay transparency. Operate as if you were only operating in that one state that has the most or stringent exactly the most stringent regulations because in that case, you're not going to get in trouble with the other states.

[00:12:37] They don't care. What you're going to do is you're going to set yourself up where you're not going to say, oh my gosh, well, I didn't do this for California. But you did. You're okay. You're good because you've satisfied all the regulations for California.

[00:12:49] I'm not trying to pick on California by the way. I think what they've done is great. Pick the state that's the cut, I don't want to say the worst, but the most stringent to your

[00:12:59] point, no strings it and do that. Then the next thing is figure out how you're going to implement from a transactional perspective, from a posting jobs perspective, from a education of your managers and employees perspective, tell them why you're doing this because to the point you

[00:13:17] made before and we were talking about if you have people who don't understand and they see the information that you're posting and they say, well, that's more than I'm getting. If they're

[00:13:28] educated, then they'll know, yeah, I'll take care of you. We're going to get there when we go to your merits. We do a market adjustment, then you're going to get an adjustment based on the

[00:13:38] movement in the market and how we're posting that range. Also advocate for yourself. Do the education understand what the posting is online. Make sure that your skills match the skills and the

[00:13:50] posting and then basically say hey listen, you posted that job, I do that job. Those skills are my skills. In fact, I'm even more than that. I'm doing the job today and I do it in an exemplar

[00:14:02] way. You know, I can't talk this morning. So why am I not at that level? Be that advocate for yourself and actually put it out there. You're not going to get fired for that. In fact, one of the regulations

[00:14:13] around transparency is that employees can ask and can talk about their pay and not worry about their appraisal audit. Now get it. It depends on the state but you need to make sure that you and your

[00:14:24] manager and your HR team can talk about this and have the constructive conversation in an unemotional way and I got to emphasize that. Don't come at this and give you angry. Don't come

[00:14:35] at this and be mad or sad. Come at this factually. Do all your homework. Have all your numbers, have all of your performance evaluations. They're going to as well and be able to come at this

[00:14:47] in a business case. Here's why I think I deserve what you're posting online. You said it. That's something that Brian is always articulated to me ever since I've known him and that work with him.

[00:15:00] He's always said you need to make sure you have a bullet proof. This is case when you're presenting something anything let alone your pay. The great stuff, David. Do you have any

[00:15:10] other questions, Brian? Yeah, no one. I don't know about my question but I did want to say this. It hits that hit a nerve for me because like you saying what we would we talk about this all the time

[00:15:22] and I missed out one year on a performance review on what my bonus would have been that year because I wasn't prepared to talk about salad or like I wasn't prepared to talk about what I did

[00:15:33] from myself that year and we joke around. My boss was like, yeah, the good year. You didn't have a great year and I lost out because I couldn't just implement it performance evaluations in 80

[00:15:44] that year. So I was like, there's a herk-billion task. By myself for 3,000 employees, I was like, how in the world? What? But you know and I just chalked it up. I just wasn't prepared so I

[00:16:00] advocate for that all the time. We have to keep that running list of why we're good, advocate for ourselves. You know those little feathers in your cat you actually need to take

[00:16:10] and tie and document them. So you can have these conversations which are on the spot or if now with patrons, parents see this is you'll see these type of things and you'll be able to go and have

[00:16:22] the conversation. I also struggle with this as a payroll person as a HR as an HRIS person that protects data, right? We are the guardians of this employee data. That's where I have a problem with

[00:16:36] pay transparency because from that transactional side, there are no two exact employees and how their net is worked out and what those calculations are. Every scenario is different. So I struggle with

[00:16:51] you can talk about pay. Okay, you may be able to do it for this but please be careful. Now I have the restructure. How I'm advising folks yeah we can talk about pay but the calculations and the net

[00:17:05] and those netty green details is where that the devil's in the details and that is where you don't what's it can be apples and oranges and then the data that's where I struggle.

[00:17:15] I think it goes back to what David was saying about the education piece and I think that could be emphasized by the employer and let them know of RIP hate everybody's end result in that pay is going

[00:17:27] to be different, potentially different based on their scenario. Now I feel the point that they can talk about is the base gross salary, right? I think they can't talk about that at there. We do the same

[00:17:40] job and we have the same experience similar experience. We should be able to talk about hey I make 45,000 you make 45,000 we should be able to talk about that or you make 48 and I make 45 and

[00:17:51] we do the same as that thing and I've been here longer that's something we can talk about but if we can't go into the details I think that's where it should stop at all well you have benefits

[00:18:00] and I know or you have the benefits and I don't I think that's where it can get more to yeah what I think that is the part that the employer has to and the employer has to draw the line the

[00:18:12] sand is say hey you can talk about it up to this point maybe I don't know if you guys agree with that but that's just my thinking on it. Well let me put one whole net while though which is I

[00:18:22] agree with you on the hey listen let's compare annualized salary and talk about that the problem is and this is where it gets really murky to borrow your expression when we talk about opportunities

[00:18:34] for overtime is one of those areas where we get that unconscious bias about who I asked to do over time whether it's the male or the female because she's got a government to care for kids he doesn't

[00:18:47] have to he's got his wife to take care of them that's complete unconscious bias and that's wrong and so a lot of organizations a lot of people make most of their living on overtime because

[00:18:58] that's where the money hits that's where the gravy is well that's exactly where we see a lot of issue happen where you know people get chosen for overtime and that's where unconscious bias happens

[00:19:11] so my advice to people is not only pay attention to your salary because that's obviously the basis for how you get paid on an annualized basis or on a regular basis but be careful about that over time

[00:19:23] and to Walt's point it's probably not good to talk about the opportunities you've had because that could get you into trouble but that might be where you talked to your manager and say hey listen

[00:19:34] I'm not working the overtime that I know Walt's working and Walt's getting paid time and a half in some cases he'd get no holidays because but you think that he doesn't have a family he goes to his

[00:19:44] family for a holiday so he could go but you're giving him that overtime not me and so that's causing me to not get the money that Walt's getting that's that other area where it's under the radar

[00:19:56] but if you ask people who are just their earning that paycheck and page it living page for the paycheck that overtime really matters and I do think that's an area with people have to be

[00:20:06] very careful about how they ask how they talk about it and managers you really need to do a better job of being able to understand who can not just thinking who can but knowing who can

[00:20:18] great one thank you very much but the I think Walt I think that goes back to your point of an education about the company needing to be able or needing to have a good education about

[00:20:28] how all that works and and being able to set them up with success those managers and those employees for success having the more mature conversation having the right conversation yes agreed absolutely agree one of the things and I'm not saying to verbatim but one of the

[00:20:44] things that I've heard Brian say and I agree with him is that the emphasis is on the education part is if the emphasis is teaching the employee how to do the job

[00:20:57] as some companies don't even do that well we'll pay here's a job description this is what you do but they don't teach them about their pay yes you're right and we all know that payroll

[00:21:08] and okay now you guys love payroll I'm not going to be on payroll but we know sometimes when people get their paycheck that it's not exactly obvious as to how and what is on there

[00:21:18] it's because whatever reason and so there's no translation mechanism between the things that says in those descriptions and what I actually earned also managers do a terrible job of being able to

[00:21:30] say hey listen there's an extra bit of money in there because you did a great job this year for your bonus and I really want to thank you for all the contributions you made a lot of

[00:21:40] times they see it in their pace tub then they have the conversation with their boss and like those nice why didn't you tell me what is all for so true that's so true and and that speaks

[00:21:49] a lot to that communication piece how important it is you just said it manage don't do good enough job prefficing that payment it's coming and it's your and we deal with that all the time with payroll

[00:22:00] unfortunately because we're payroll we get those first line of questioning right really made it might should go to HR might should go to your boss but hey it's my paycheck I'm asking my payroll person right oh let's just record payment what's this yeah each oh lb on

[00:22:18] exact names oh you're boss didn't talk to you about that that's right and on the flip side of that like what was saying we I speak to my daughter's 20 years old and I'm speaking to her and her friends

[00:22:29] and is well what's this many thing and what's this yeah they thought it was there's so much opportunity there that we got in with pay transparency in which shows like this and HR data labs

[00:22:42] we hope to fill those gaps of just education and just teaching folks yeah but what we're doing and you guys are getting an amazing audience and I'm very proud of you guys but it's really up

[00:22:53] to those companies and those managers because they're the first line of defense the the first they're the people who this is their resources and I know it's tough being a manager it's really

[00:23:04] tough I've been a manager many times in my life manager again you got to do a good job of being able to protect your people and make sure your people understand everything that's happening yeah

[00:23:15] what's that well anything else before we jump into this are that no as we near the end of this episode we like to extend our heartfelt gratitude to you for listening before we sign off here are a

[00:23:27] couple quick thanks don't forget to follow it's about payroll all LinkedIn and it's about your paycheck on Facebook and TikTok you love engaging with our audience and you'll be able to receive exclusive updates in behind the scenes content thank you for being a part of our payroll community

[00:23:45] and thank you for being a part of this journey with us until next time keep learning keep growing most importantly keep going so David we got to again that we started to play with our guests

[00:23:57] it's just a just question some fun questions this or that you picked one of the other all right I'll start a few off direct deposit or live checks oh direct deposit definitely all in one

[00:24:12] pace solution or HCM or text stack oh my god oh yeah old days would have been text stack nowadays all in one what very interesting hockey or football you see my helmet right there hockey a goldie dude new york Rangers

[00:24:38] that I caught in the background I see the N Y range is that's right that's right excel or Google sheets oh excel can sound 80p or paychecks I gotta go with the mothership 80p sorry they said well you want to finish it out

[00:24:58] yes all right so I'll say the last four cash or crypto cash or crypto yeah no cash movie theater or streaming streaming all right so payroll sit in finance or what's that finance out wait so this is an interesting end right because we just learn about a

[00:25:26] stat that said that although the functionality there's little change right it's the customer service that's impacted when payroll sits under finance the customer service is suffers when it's right I did that and it made sense right because finance is very black and white

[00:25:49] like example they use right exactly yes and that that I thought was something that we need to pay attention to that was awesome yeah thanks for playing that David we had a lot of that thanks

[00:26:00] that was really great and he last thought David what would you tell a new HR payroll person coming and what kind of advice would you give somebody new we need young people to get into payroll

[00:26:11] in HR I ask what would you tell them there is no better place in a company right now to be then in human resources in payroll the company runs on their people a company cannot exist without their

[00:26:23] people and so often HR and payroll have been thought of as afterthoughts cost centers and a need to have and too often it's overlooked but nowadays people are understanding that HR is a great

[00:26:38] career choice because you can touch on every part of the business you can impact every part of the business you can get respect from every part of the business because if you're a professional

[00:26:49] and you're learning and you're trying to help the business out the way they need help then there's no better place to be than the center of it all where the people are the most important

[00:27:01] resource in that's HR and payroll and I'd say if you have a career choice to make and you think that you don't have any good skills to bring but you're a really good people person you understand

[00:27:14] numbers there's no place better than HR and payroll so awesome said thank you thank you very much David for sharing your knowledge with us today for joining us today

[00:27:24] man we so appreciate it is on it to have you love you guys you guys are awesome thank you for everything you do for the world of payroll and HR you guys are awesome that means a lot to us thank you so thank you

[00:27:34] sir all right thanks folks we love you have a good one thank you for tuning in to hits about payroll until next time keep learning keep growing and most importantly keep going