Andrea Dottling & Parker Grant, Co-Founders at IDLance, Meet The Leading Instructional Design Talent Platform Avoiding Every Freelance Trap

[00:00:05] Yeah, so as we kick off the episode, so for listeners out there who are looking at the video, we got the IDLance shirt. So I'll frame this out. So we met, was it six years ago, guys? It was possibly more than that, I think. It was pre-COVID actually. It was. It was pre-COVID. Okay, so for everyone out there, so IDLance I would say is the leading instructional design platform. When we met, it was, you guys were just focusing on the community.

[00:00:35] You were like, hey, we have this awesome community of instructional designers. Do you want to come talk and, you know, tell us about what buyers are saying about us? I was like, sure, sounds great. And then it's been seven years, and you're not just still here, you're thriving. And so I think you're both connecting the, you know, instructional designers to solutions to buyers as well, so we'll talk about that. Um, yeah, I think first, Parker, Andrea, you guys want to do a little intro on yourselves?

[00:01:00] Sure. Yeah, I can go first. So I'm Andrea Dottling. Um, as he said, one of the co-founders of IDLance. I've been doing things related to instructional design my whole career before I even knew that it was a thing.

[00:01:14] And then officially, I would say since 2016, 2017 or so, I started doing stuff in higher ed. And then Parker brought me over to the freelancing side. He gave me my first freelance gig ever writing text message courses. And ever since then, we have never parted ways. Um, with me. Yep, yep. We're saying for better or for worse. I feel like you got the worst end of the deal. But that's it.

[00:01:41] No, no. Um, what else about me? Um, I have recently realized that I like, I'm like, I'm doing a lot more art lately. And I'm trying to incorporate some of that doing IDLance stuff with just some of our fun marketing and whatnot. I have two kids. I have a small dog. That's a Chowini who looks like a black lab puppy forever. And I live in Orlando. That's incredible. And somehow you have not had your dog get eaten by an alligator, which, uh,

[00:02:10] No, I'm the world's best dog mom. Yeah, that's impressive. And then so Parker, the opposite end of Florida. Uh, what about you? Yeah, I'm in the Northeast. I'm in the Hartford, Connecticut area. And there are many times I just wish I was in Florida. Uh, so I'd like going to the conferences, by the way, if we have those November, April, or February, I'm there. Um, yeah, so I'm Parker Grant, one of the co-founders of IDLance.

[00:02:35] And, uh, we have been at this business, uh, since the fall of 2019. I think we officially made it entity, uh, in February of 2020. So yeah, a little over six years now, uh, with IDLance. And, uh, we never expected this to be like an agency. It was just one of those things where we figured we'd try to develop an online community, um, you know, to help people transition from their corporate jobs or from their teaching jobs.

[00:03:05] And just figure out how to start a business in freelancing. And that's something that Andrea and I had, uh, shared our, um, you know, her expertise in, you know, in the new side of things versus mine, which kind of goes back a little ways, like 34 years of L&D.

[00:03:25] But I don't look, you know, that old, do I? Anyway. So yeah, uh, we, uh, we, we got our heads together to figure out how to, you know, help these people make that transition. Because it's very emotional. You know, a lot of people get stressed out. I just don't know how to really make that emotional leap to, yeah, I can do this, the confidence, the motivation.

[00:03:49] And so we were there to help, but what we didn't realize back in 2020 was that we were going to form an agency. It just happened sort of accidentally. Yeah. It was crazy. So we had, we started as like a curriculum that we, at first we had like a really cheap monthly membership for like some learn dash site with a curriculum on how to either start side gigging or freelancing.

[00:04:12] And then I think, uh, I forget how long it was in one of, uh, the people that we know, like knew we existed and they were like, Hey, so you have this community. Do you do projects? And we were like, sure. Yes, we do. Because that's what Parker had been doing. And that's what I was doing with him, like as a freelancer on the side. Um, and so we were like, sure, let's do that.

[00:04:32] And then over time, we've actually grown, we have a Slack community where we're like talking to the people, talking to our freelancers, like all the time, all day, if they, if they want to be there, you know, it's not a cult, I promise. Um, but we've got like 2000, over 2000 people now. And it's fun for us because we get to see people like some of the people who joined early to see where their careers are now is like insane.

[00:04:56] Like some of the people where we gave them their first freelance gig are now like full blown business owners and they're doing their own thing and they're giving other people opportunities. But it's also good for us to be in connection with the community because it's also kind of like a way to see people's skills and see how they interact with other people. And are they client facing? Are they more of a writer? Are they more of a graphic person or developer or all of that?

[00:05:20] And so it's kind of like the best of both worlds because like we're giving a community where people can ask everything like, Hey, you live in Florida. What are you doing for health insurance if you're a freelancer? But then also, Hey, I have a tricky client situation. What would you do? And we'll like chime in. We have community events and all that kind of stuff. But then for the clients, like it's good for them because we know these people pretty well. We're not just matching resumes or posting on LinkedIn all the time.

[00:05:47] Like we can feel like not to toot our own horn, but it's crazy. We can fill a gig in like 24 hours with people who we know are going to do a good job. And if something happens or if someone gets sick or whatever, we'll go to the client and we'll be like, we can get you someone just as good. Like, well, if something were to happen, like we'd like to like kind of ensure success instead of just being like, hope you guys are good over there doing your project. We try and like stay informed in that.

[00:06:18] So I have so many questions, but let me just call out. I mean, this is where I think what is so cool from what we've seen. And actually, let me I'll give you context. When we first met, my premise was I was at Microsoft and I had just built out our freelance internal freelance program. I was early at Gigster. So we had done like, you know, million dollar custom software builds through these fully, fully remote freelance networks.

[00:06:41] So I had seen this model work so well and I had the belief that, hey, what if we no longer needed a platform? What if freelancers could just team up themselves and be their own businesses and never, ever needed a platform? And boy, was I so wrong. Right. So, boy, do we need these intermediary layers. And so we'll kind of talk about like, hey, what is the role of the platform? Why do buyers really need the platform? Why do freelancers really like the platform?

[00:07:08] Because there's a lot of, I would say, just kind of noise out there on both sides about all platforms are the worst. It's like, no, no, no. But so I want to call out you guys started as a community. Now, you always were ID focused, right? Meaning instructional design. So did you ever kind of think to yourselves, hey, we're going to be the largest freelance community? So it's funny that you say that is because we're instructional design. Right.

[00:07:33] However, what that means in general is like if you think about what what kinds of things that companies make for training or courses or whatever, there are so many different types of people that are needed that we don't just have. Oh, like the instructional designer that's doing a needs analysis and writing an outline and writing objectives like what ends up happening is we've got graphic designers. We've got video people. We have change management consultants.

[00:08:00] We have like anything that's like adjacently related. And so we've like considered in the future. I don't know if this is TMI, Parker, that like so we have this program that we're launching soon called Feast. It's like freelance empowerment, advanced skills training. I know Feast came first, the word, and then we backtrack to figure out how we could make that make sense. Because our whole vibe is like we're ID Lance. Our mascot is Lance a lot. It's like got this medieval thing.

[00:08:29] But our Feast program is actually located in space. So you'll see. You'll see how it all works. But we were like maybe in the future we can actually expand that to be four different types of freelancers or freelancing in general. But although like our community and what we do is mostly instructional design, we're often looking for people who are like doing anything even tangentially related. Like technology stuff. Like people who can configure LMS platforms. Like it's just.

[00:08:59] It's like a long way to say that like we're ID Lance, but also it's got so many more things in it. Well, and I'll call it too. So here's one of the things we've seen is. And hell, I mean, we've been looking at this since 2016. But so it's almost like we've seen these kind of traps where we see patterns that turn into traps. So one pattern that turns into a trap is, hey, we're a freelance community for freelancers. And that's all we do.

[00:09:26] And usually what happens is it turns into this weird like self-help club where it turns into people selling their own courses and their own self-help stuff rather than having good freelancers anymore. So you avoid that trap because you were specialized at first, but then also because you had the buyers on the other side.

[00:09:46] Now, trap number two, just having the buyers, because if just having the buyers, then it turns into kind of more like an upwork or something that's just about the buyers. So you've avoided the two biggest traps, which are like, hey, we're a community of just generalists and that turn into self-helpies. And then at the same time, we've, you know, we've avoided being just another staffing firm. So you've avoided that. Now, what has it been like these past five years?

[00:10:13] Like, have you and Parker just looked at each other and like, wow, didn't expect that. Whoa, way better than I expected. Whoa, this part sucks. But what have the past five years been like? Well, interesting. We've experienced pretty steady growth, which I think of 2024, we had a little bit of a dip. But I think that was largely due to economic pressures, the market condition. AI had some aspect of that.

[00:10:43] Because there was a lot of uncertainty during that year. But we experienced a continued rebound in 2025 and still growing in 2026. So I think what we're seeing is a growth that is reflecting, I think, where people are headed. And I think where people are headed is more and more of the remote-style freelancing kind of work.

[00:11:12] Even if you look up the trends on Google, you'll find that, you know, it's a growing market. Right now, I don't know, we've got 70, 80 million people in the United States that are doing some form of remote or site digging or freelancing. And that's only going to grow. Full-time freelancers, we're talking, what, 16 to 18%. But that is going to continue to grow.

[00:11:39] And so that may be why we're experiencing growth as a whole at ID Lance is because more and more people are making that shift. But it's not an easy shift. And that's why we're here is we're helping them, you know, from an emotional perspective. And we need to remind people that, hey, we've been through it before. We know the stresses, the concern, even the successes and the joys.

[00:12:08] We're there for them. And that sense of community, I think, is so important, especially these days where community is long sought after. Yeah. And what I think also is that whenever we meet with a client, I think they can see sort of right away. Or if it feels like the clients that we have that are successful, we have like BFF vibes with them.

[00:12:31] But like they get that we're trying to help people and they get that we're not trying to like put them through so many layers of bureaucracy to get a project done. Like we try to be as down to earth as possible, because what I think people what I think clients sometimes worry about is like paying for all this bloat. Right. Of like, oh, you're going to work with a company. And gosh, what's that going to cost and what's that going to mean? And like we will tell them, listen, you we will only give you as much as you need.

[00:13:00] And if you want to scale up or scale down, like that's why we are cultivating like these great people is because we want to be able to help you scale. Or help you figure out what you even need in the first place. We kind of meet people wherever they are versus trying to tell them what they need. We'd want to build that.

[00:13:20] What we're really proud of and also like I think personally, Parker and I's value is like we don't like when companies that do what we do like talk down to people. And they're like, oh, well, I can't believe that that's what you think the solution is. Like we're like, where are you at? What are your resources? How can we get you what you need? Build trust with you. And then kind of help them grow and be that consultative voice if they want us to be. But that way they don't feel all this pressure either way.

[00:13:49] And I think the more pressure people feel like the more they kind of like go away from wanting to hire a company. But what's kind of cool, too, is like within our whole community is that we also have tons of business owners in our community posting gigs, too. So not only do we have projects that we hire from, but our freelancers who have their own businesses and they've either taken on too much work or they're really growing.

[00:14:14] They can post in our community and post their own gigs to get help from each other. So it's like this like big network with these little ones inside. And so it's and we're all kind of open to working for each other. So it's not like a one way street. And I think that's what's helped us stay growing and effective. And where people want to be with us is because we're not like trying to make people do anything a certain way because this doesn't work.

[00:14:42] Let's let me double click on the buyer side, because I think this is where it's a fascinating, fascinating discussion. So do you see so first, do you see parallels in terms of similar types of companies? So are these the largest of companies coming to you, midsize, small startups or all? And then usually are they coming to you for similar things, meaning they all want these types of projects? And then my biggest question is always like, if not you, what do they do? Right. So do they go and try to staff it themselves?

[00:15:13] Do they go to staffing firms? Do they go to agencies? But yeah, let's let's double click on this buyer buyer side. Yeah. So the buyers range from small to large. We don't try to corner our audience to any particular size. So we've had pretty small companies that are less than 10 people to companies that are 100,000 or more.

[00:15:39] So we've had Fortune 500 companies, several of them, mid-market as well. And do they all ask for the same kind of courses? Not really. I mean, we do a lot of e-learning, you know, your traditional storyline and rise. But it's not all of that. Sometimes it's, you know, it's as simple as creating presentations, better PowerPoint slides. We've done job aids.

[00:16:09] You know, it ranges even just simple videos or Synthesia videos, things like that. So we do get, I would say, majority of the work that we get is in the e-learning space. But we're also growing our learning strategies section. So this year we made an effort to try to expand on that because we think there's a growth there.

[00:16:35] Because what happens is a lot of the companies that have faced layoffs and they're facing now a smaller population of L&D professionals. What's the strategy now? So we have some very well-versed people in learning strategy that we're bringing in to help companies, you know, figure out how to start over and then grow their department. Yeah. And I would say to answer your question of, like, if they don't go with someone like us or us, like, what do they do?

[00:17:04] I would say from what I've seen recently is they're trying to hire their own individual freelancers and then having to manage, like, how are they working together? Are they all making things that seem the same? And some of them have learned, like, oh, that's kind of even more complicated than just, like, hiring us where we'll have a project manager. Or maybe we do have a few individual freelancers, but there's someone on our end making sure they're all doing stuff in a way that's cohesive.

[00:17:31] Or they try to do it from the inside and then it just takes them a super long time to deliver what they're supposed to deliver for, like, their leadership or whatever. So at least that's what I've seen. That's what I was expecting. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then from a process perspective, I mean, so here's my – when clients ask us, and we have – you guys think you have a tough part in selling? We have a tough part in being like, why should we go at this company, right?

[00:18:00] Because we are the layer on top of y'all. So they come to us and they're like, hey, we want to work with – and they don't really care about freelancers, to be honest. They're all about the outcomes, outcomes, outcomes. So they come to us, right? And they're like, hey, we need to get these outcomes done. And we're like, all right. Well, do you want to go staff it yourself? No, obviously not. All right. Do you want to go at the agencies you've already used a million times and you always have, you know, above average satisfaction with extremely high pay? No. Okay.

[00:18:27] So then we go, all right, well, we have these thousands of solutions like you, 60% to 80% cost savings, 90% plus success, yada, yada, yada. And it's the same discussion of, well, why don't we just do it ourself? And we're like, well, because it's really freaking hard, right? So from the perspective of y'all, my understanding and the way I kind of express it to buyers is good luck doing the sourcing and the scoping yourself.

[00:18:53] Now, the sourcing is where they might have hundreds of contractors that they already use. So sourcing is kind of like a misnomer, like they might already have the people, but it's more the mobilization of them. Now, the scoping is where, oh, my God, do they need to go with people like you? Because if large agency, the scoping is assuming massive margins, massive blow, and it's going to take a long time to compensate for the fact that there's a bunch of juniors doing the work, right?

[00:19:23] If individual, it might actually be too cheap, but then they're not covering a bunch of other stuff. So tell me about the actual sourcing and scoping from the perspective of when a buyer comes and talks with you, do you just send him a form and say, all right, fill this out? And then we're going to go send it to everyone and make them compete against each other. I had a feeling. But so I assume I am the buyer. What is our working relationship going to look like?

[00:19:54] How about this? I'll start, but then you, Parker is like the scoping expert. Yeah, cool. In terms of assembling all that. But I would say like how the relationship starts is we usually have like an original, you know, a first call or an email exchange or something, but usually ends up in a call where we can just like kind of hash it out. Like, what are you looking for in terms of even if they don't know specifically? Like, what are your or what pain points are you having?

[00:20:23] Or like, what are you usually, though, I would say the client is like, we need these deliverables by this date. Like, we need this many topics to have materials attached to them by this date. And so then we have it's up to us to ask those clarifying questions of like, OK, so who's taking it? Who or who needs this? Or when is it going to be if it's an in-person thing or if it's an instructor led? When is this going to be delivered and when do you need to backtrack the date by?

[00:20:52] So we ask all of the questions. And then based on that conversation, maybe it's two conversations. I feel like a lot of times it's often one and then maybe some email exchange. And then we write a statement of work. And then, Parker, I think maybe you can talk more about the process of like the factors that go into deciding like the scope and all that. Yeah, no, there's a lot to obviously factor in.

[00:21:21] But, you know, the main thing when we start a conversation with a client, we're really talking about the benefits that they get. More so than the actual details of the scope. Because what's important is that the client knows that we're going to have a plug and play ready team to jump in. And we're also overseeing that team. Just in case something happens, we can bring in people to replace others if we need to.

[00:21:50] If something happens to one of the team members, we can bring in another team member in an instant. So we talk about these benefits up front just so they know what they're getting. And, of course, the scoping itself is probably like any other agency. You have to figure out how many people you need, when's the start date, when's the end date, how many deliverables, how long are their courses, their 15-minute storyline courses, 15-minute rise courses, five-minute videos. Is it Synthesia?

[00:22:19] Is the voiceover, you know, human talent or is it AI? A lot of these details we have to work out. And then we just get an estimate. Now, we try to apply, obviously, a gross margin in the overall scope. Sometimes those gross margins we do flex with just because we may know a little bit more about the client's economic condition, what they're facing. So we try to work with them as best as we can just to ensure that they get the job done.

[00:22:50] But once it's done, the main thing is just to build that trust that we deliver successfully. And that's always our aim is to be a partner, you know, not just a vendor, but really truly be a partner. And I was just to add on that. What I think also happens is once they hear about kind of how we operate and how we can give them like kind of as much or as little as they need, we also when they find out that we're like helping the people that are in our community,

[00:23:19] that we're not just like finding random people or whatever, that usually means a lot to people because then they know like, OK, if we hire them, they're invested in the people they're working with success. They're not just like setting and forgetting it. Because, you know, if the freelancers don't like working with us, then they're not going to work with us again. If the clients don't like working with us, they're not going to work with us again. So it's really important that everybody feels supported and has a good experience. And we're also, you know, a little silly and whatever.

[00:23:48] But like some people love that. We worked with one client that was so corporate and stuffy. But then I'd crack a little joke and he'd be like, ha ha ha. And I was like, this is hilarious because you're like the most corporate of the corporate. But you like our vibe, but you can't quite articulate that you like our vibe. But that's kind of what's important to us, too, is we just want everyone to feel supported. And like things are going smoothly and that to know that we're not like it's not in our interest to like upsell because it just won't.

[00:24:17] They'll find out that that's not the right thing. And then the freelancers are all like they'll know. You know, we just try and keep everything as transparent as possible because that's also just like an easier way to work, too. Right. We're just ourselves when we're in calls. We're not trying to be anything like expert, you know, I don't know how to say it. To the point on like the why. Why not do it yourself? Right. Because this is such an important question.

[00:24:47] And it typically the question would be like, OK, like, do we outsource or do we do it ourself? And now there's this thing in the middle, which is like, hey, like, sure, you are outsourcing, meaning you have the benefits of it's a variable cost. Right. It's it's not it's not a fixed headcount cost. It looks different in your in your books. And then two. OK, if it doesn't work, you can end it like this and you don't have to deal with severance and whatever it is.

[00:25:12] But then if it's on your own books, you have to worry about, all right, is there always projects for this person and whatever it is? And it's like, no, no, hit it over at idealance. You know, they're going to be happy. You know, it's going to be the top quality and you let they know how to vet. So it's it's that happy medium. Now, I had a funny question for both of you, too.

[00:25:31] And I asked this because so one of the biggest questions that we always have to get wrong by is, OK, you have this new wave and don't kill me for using this term, but you have this new wave of staffing firms. OK, do you know how many staffing firms are in the world, by the way? OK, there's like over one hundred and thirty thousand and it's probably the biggest industry. If we were to like actually nest about probably the biggest industry and the biggest opportunity.

[00:25:59] But so one of the biggest questions we get, you have these over one hundred and thirty thousand staffing firms. And what you're telling me is that you have these boutique niche agency slash staffing firm hybrids that are, you know, digital first, freelance first, whatever. And the second question is, well, how come we haven't heard of them? Meaning how come there's not these four agencies that are massive and everyone's burnt out and the founders are millionaires? All right. How come? Whatever.

[00:26:28] So my question for you two is when you define success of idealized, how do you define it? Are you two trying to build this behemoth agency that replaces all the best agencies? Are you trying to just build a sustainable, you know, cash flow positive, profitable entity? What is what does success look like for you two? That's a good question. Hmm. That's a tough one.

[00:26:58] Yeah, Matt. I know. I know. Yeah. Oh, I think just mainly we think of success as being in the moment. Not necessarily look like five years down the road, 10 years, but just be in the moment, be present for the clients. Everybody has needs and the needs are going to evolve. Can we predict that? No. No. Can we try to predict it? Sure.

[00:27:27] I mean, we think that ESG or environmental, social and governance is going to be an increasing need in the coming years, especially in the EU. So, yeah, we can plan for that and try to target the EU, you know, market and, you know, offer more of the ESG kind of training.

[00:27:50] As an agency, though, going back to that, I don't like to think of ourselves as staffing agency. I like to think of it as boutique, perhaps. And one that is, as we look at success is, are we helping the client? Are we bringing in project teams right in their workflow as if they've known us forever?

[00:28:17] Are we, you know, integrating with their culture? Are we understanding their needs? If we get out of that project and they were happy, that to us is success. I would say, like, and that's a good explanation.

[00:28:34] And also, like, in terms of IDLance as a whole, if we can keep finding cool clients that can keep us, that can enable us to have gigs for our community and for our community to keep kind of leveling up. Because the better that they are at their job, then the better and more projects we can do.

[00:29:01] So, if those can keep being symbiotic and one kind of helping the other, and also if I can, like, occasionally go to Five Below with my children and get them, like, five items each. Like, that's all I really want is, like, if I can, like, get toys for my kids from running IDLance and we can have them self-sustaining each other, I'll be really honest. Because that's kind of, like, what really matters.

[00:29:27] Because I've been on the other side of, like, oh, I have, like, a job and I don't feel like I'm helping anything, but I'm, like, making money to live my life. But I'm just, like, okay, I do this work and I don't see what it's really affecting. I've done that in, like, yeah, it was, like, livable, right? But, like, it's not, it didn't, like, give me purpose. I feel like I've been reading a lot of stuff, like, purpose really matters.

[00:29:55] And there's really, not to be so corny, but there is something really cool about giving people jobs and gigs and seeing them grow and then seeing them give other people opportunities. Because in the world that we live in, like, I feel like the only security there is, is completely owning your time. Is completely owning your own career and your time.

[00:30:16] And people who feel trapped at, like, a salary job, that little, like, glint in their eye that happens when they realize they can start side gigging and they got that a little bit of extra income. It gives them confidence and then they can live their life a little bit more freely not being terrified of, like, what's going to happen when I get laid off. Or, like, that is worth it to me because, like, I have been there. Like, I have always worked multiple jobs. Like, always.

[00:30:39] Ever since I was, like, in the workforce, I somehow always had multiple things happening for various reasons, right? Because a lot of times because I had to because the situation I was in was, like, I need to have these. And so I just like seeing people not stuck because ultimately, I just had this thought the other day.

[00:30:57] Like, ultimately, if more people feel more secure and, like, satisfied with their lives and, like, they can do the things they want to do, then literally, like, the whole temperature of, like, the vibe of, like, everybody around is better if more people feel more secure. So it's just, yeah.

[00:31:17] Even from a selfish standpoint, I want to be around people who are, like, happy with how they're living their lives and don't feel trapped because it just, like, I don't know, contributes to the whole life. It's so tough to, and you guys know, like, I started in Silicon Valley, right? So, like, my circle's always been, like, Boston, Silicon Valley, Seattle, Singapore. So when I try to explain this to people, I'm like, no, no, like, this is a, it is definitely purpose-driven industry.

[00:31:47] But also, it's a sustainable industry. And it's this crazy weird mix of, like, self-employment, yet security, yet, like, hyper niche in terms of they're really good at what they do. So I think, I still don't know the word to use, right? So, Parker, don't worry. I'm not going to say staffing firm or agency. Let's see. I still don't know the exact word to use, but there's definitely this other option where it's like, hey, this is a damn good business driving damn good client results.

[00:32:15] And even if you are, let's say, Medtronic or a small startup, you should probably go with them if it's instructional design related. So, okay, last question for you. I think it puts a bow on all of this. All right. With AI. And I'm sure you knew I was going to ask, but with AI. What are you seeing? What do you think is going to happen? And I'll give you what, you know, the newsletter coming out later today.

[00:32:43] The stat we saw was there is, I think it was like 20, 22,000 jobs per month are getting just destroyed. But then of those 22,000, between 8,000 and 16,000 are getting added back. And over 50% of companies are saying they regret their layoffs. So we're in this really weird time where you get rewarded by laying off. It's kind of a wink-wink. We all know that we're going to cut too much and then bring those people back as contractors.

[00:33:13] But my wink-wink to them is I'm like, well, this is what you should have done in the first place. Because this full-time, you know, this default full-time workforce created a lot of bloat. It's created a lot of people that aren't actually accountable to outcomes. It then puts them in a position where they're trying to keep their job versus actually being cut at their job. And to your point, Andrea, it then creates a bunch of just at a societal level, I would say inefficiency. Or just it's not working.

[00:33:40] But so when we look at AI, and I'll give one more caveat. Like I told you before, this podcast is fully automated now. We have eliminated what I would argue would be hundreds of thousands of dollars of costs that prior were needed to run a podcast and a media company and that kind of stuff. So we're fully bought in. I work mostly with agents now versus my human team. Love my human team to death. But I work mostly with my agents.

[00:34:09] But so what are you all, what are you all seeing? And what do you think is going to happen? I mean, I think it's just expected now that the people who are still like really good at what they do are just de facto incorporating AI into what they're doing. Like some of these like sloggy processes that we, that you, you know, have to do as an instructional designer or somebody working on anything in the field.

[00:34:34] Like all that upfront grunt work of like organizing thoughts and finding bits of information about certain topics across different things. Like you can put that, like you can have, you know, AI do that and consult and consolidate that for you. I am still finding that no matter what tool I use personally, I still need to read all of it. Like I still need to go through because there will be some crazy stuff that ends up in there. Now, not to say it's not going to get better. I'm sure it will.

[00:35:03] And getting better at prompting and all that stuff. But like now I feel like I just expect that someone is going to be using it. And if they're not, I'm like, why are you not? Like, because it's just, and it also gets us to the fun part quicker. The fun part of like coming up with the idea in the first place that you're going to maybe use AI to help you with.

[00:35:24] Like you're actually, I feel like the brain power is freed a little bit more to actually think about how we can level things up more that you might not necessarily have had time to do before. Because all of that grunt work eats up hours and it eats up your time and whatnot. Parker, what do you think? Yeah, I think AI is still going through a lot of growing pains and it's exciting.

[00:35:49] I imagine five years from now is just going to be so much different than today. I do vision that there will be agents out there that are acting as mentors and coaches as human avatars. I mean, they're not real people, but they look like human and they can coach and mentor.

[00:36:10] I do see real-time avatars being a big part of learning and development in the future, only because this is where practice and repetition is very helpful. And it doesn't really cost much to have that. It's very expensive if you had to have a live coach or a live mentor constantly talking to you every day. So it's just not a practical thing. But AI could really be effective in that.

[00:36:37] As long as you have the right knowledge database in there and it can make sense of what you're saying. But it would be real-time through the monitor. You have a microphone. You're talking to this avatar. I can see that dialogue happening. In those kind of things, AI is pretty exciting. What I'm talking about today is really kind of like Andrea said, you've got to have the human oversight.

[00:37:03] You can produce things using AI, but then you have to go back and look for the slop, as they call it, right? AI slop. Get rid of the slop. Fine-tune it. Make it human. And make it make sense. But it is exciting to use it as a tool, but not as a replacement. One thing I wonder in terms of the future, and this is me, this is, again, whatever I'm about to say might not be endorsed by Idealance as a company. I don't know what I'm about to say.

[00:37:32] You approve that. That's a good... Parker may or may not approve of what I'm about to say. I've been thinking lately, though, that like, will... It's never going to go away. But will there be a point where people start tuning out stuff? Like, or will people...

[00:37:53] Like, when you're talking about the avatars and stuff, like, if I was at a job, although the people, you know, are going to be younger than me coming up and working and stuff, will they just be used to it and be like, yep, I take this seriously, whatever? Or, like, will there be a point where things come back around and you're like, oh my god, I know that that was made by AI? Or will... And then so they just don't want to even listen to it. They just don't care or it doesn't interest them. They don't connect with it. Or will it be... Will AI get so good that you can't even tell at all?

[00:38:21] Or will our brains get so attuned to know that it's AI? Because, like, I'll be honest, we were doing stuff as a company and people were submitting things. This is not client work. It was like a special project that we had with our freelancers. And I absolutely could tell who wrote something and who didn't. And, like, it's so... Will we all get attuned to knowing? Or will it just get so good? I don't know.

[00:38:48] I'm, like, a little bit of, like, a brat in that if somebody... Like, I can't imagine that my brain will be like, I want to learn from this avatar. I'll just be like, I'm just going to go through this and not listen to a single word because, like, this is just not how I do stuff. But that's me from my generation or whatever. People growing up might just, like, when getting in the workforce, that's just, like, what they're used to. So I really don't know. I feel like there might be this swing in, like, we want to go back to, like, artisan work. So I... Where humans are doing it. I don't know.

[00:39:17] I'm so torn about this. But I think what I'm more torn about related to this is all of the mediocrity. I see it just getting taken over. And I think what's terrifying in your world is when we talk about education, I think, like, 90% of teachers are just probably should be gone. And I'm a tech brain, right? So I do not have the, like, I don't know, like, soft human side.

[00:39:47] I have the, like, efficiency and, like, okay, this is an optimal result. So for me, and I'll give you my experience. So I went to two different universities. The first university I went to, I felt like could easily be automated. And I would argue to this day, it gave me... It still has given me nothing. It was a finance and accounting major. I think I could have easily just, you know, learned this through the textbooks and the courses. And I did not need to spend as much there. My second university was more entrepreneurial focused.

[00:40:17] And it basically said, hey, what problems do you want to solve? And let us help you get to a place of solving those problems. Now, that second education is very human-led, right? It required relationships. And it required context. And it required, you know, things that AI couldn't do. My first university, I'd be more than okay if it all was taken over by AI. Now you're talking about thousands of job loss. You're talking, like, it's going to be very bad if that happens.

[00:40:43] So I think when I look at your question, I'm like, ooh, it's not a yes-no. It's more of like a contextual. It depends on what it's about, right? Like, I feel the same. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've taken... When I was in grad school and whatnot, like, when I was taking, like, the online courses, I was just like, oh my God, I'm just, like, glazing over this. But I know that the young people are, the young people, as if, like, I'm 85 years old. Like, they can learn that way.

[00:41:12] So I think it also, yeah, it's going to depend on, like, what the material is and what they actually have to do. And that's why I think the strategy part of what we're trying to do is going to be really helpful. So we can be like, listen, this, absolutely, do this with it with AI. However, this one piece, do you really want, you know, this employee to be great at this more relationship piece or whatever? And I know that there are the AI avatars where you can, like, speak with them and, like, do a sample sales call or have a conversation and whatnot, which I think is cool for practice.

[00:41:42] But at the end of the day, like, when you actually are in front of a real person, that memory, that action of doing that, like... It's a... So I'll give you... I'm going to throw one last and then I'm going to... I'm going to honestly, I'm going to throw it over the fence, then I'm just going to run away. So my moral question right now is, if you have an employee or even a freelancer, okay,

[00:42:07] and they're doing something, and let's say it's costing, say, $10,000 to $15,000 a month. Now, if AI can do all of that work, is it the responsibility of the individual to tell you, hey, AI can do all of this work? Or, now let's flip it over to the employer side, okay?

[00:42:32] So you're the one with, let's say, a $30,000 budget a month and $15,000 of that budget is going to this one thing. You find out before that individual, ooh, we can get rid of 100% of what they're doing using AI. We have seen this. This has... We've had to deal with these moral implications. And I don't know what the answer is.

[00:43:00] But all I know is, if we can save up $15,000, we can focus on other things that are more valuable. And is it our fault if the individuals do not figure out how to automate themselves or whatever? I don't know. I'm just going to throw it over the fence. I'm going to say, ooh, this is the world we're totally walking into. I'll give you my corporate, my hardcore founder, corporate investor brain.

[00:43:28] Yeah, it's your responsibility to automate, right? And I'd say, you know, from a human cloud perspective, me as like CEO of human cloud, well, if I don't do that, then I'm hurting a lot of people on the other side who are going to lose money because of my dumb resource allocation. But do they lose their job because it's all 100% off? I don't know. It's a moral conundrum we're all going to have to deal with.

[00:43:56] And I'm sure it was no different than when there was a seamstress who realized that the factory down the road could do exactly what they were doing, producing 100 more shirts for 100% less cost. I don't know. I don't know. So on that note, most important question, Parker and Andrea, where can our listeners find you? And what is the one thing you want them to do right now?

[00:44:22] We can find us at idlance.com and also on LinkedIn. We're kind of present there. And what should you do if you're if you're interested in working for us as a freelancer or just connecting with other people who are even tangentially related in instructional design, you can join our Slack, which is free. And that's you can find that on our website.

[00:44:47] If you're someone who is a possible client, you can still find us on our website and contact us there or on LinkedIn. But yeah, I mean, that's kind of all. I love our website. We have my calendar. So if anybody wanted to chat with us, it's usually a client would reach out to me. They would just click on my calendar and book in a time, you know, for like a half an hour

[00:45:14] just to have a chat, find out what the needs are. You know, we don't have these conversations yet, Matt, about whether it was, you know, it's AI versus human. We haven't run into that yet. We will have to kind of think through that. I know. I'm avoiding that one because I mine is going to be totally based on contact. Do I like the person? Is the company evil? Like, like what is are the.

[00:45:39] And yeah, but also if you if anybody watching, listening to this wants to just chat about anything at all, just message message me on LinkedIn. Or if you join the Slack, just message me and let me know where you found us, though, because that'd be fun to know if anybody came from here. Love it. All right. Thanks for hopping on, Andrea Parker. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.