Payroll In The Flow of Business with Special Guest Anand Pandya

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01] Welcome everyone to another episode of the HR & Payroll 2.0. I'm Pete Tiliakos and I'm privileged to be joined by Anand Pandya, the VP and GM of Specialty Solutions at SMBs over at ADP. Anand, welcome to the show, man.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you, Pete. So happy to be here.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, yeah. I'm stoked, man. Look, as you know, I spend a lot of time in this world in payroll and fintech and every year go to Money 2020. I'm hoping to see you guys there. I know every year you guys join too. And I got to tell you, man, over the last four years, I feel like the embedded conversation has been front and center in that world. You know, embedded payments, embedded payroll, which is exciting, embedded finance. Just all of that is just really, really cool, I think, for the business, for the employees. And yeah, just love to talk about all that with you today.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02] It's funny you mentioned Money 2020 because, you know, we've been going there for now at least four or five years and we echo what you're saying. The embedded conversations. I mean, we are back-to-back booked talking to prospective partners. We're seeing so much demand for the embedded offering and I think it's just continuing to grow.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. I did some research with ADP in the past, earlier this year. We did an e-book and I called it, I think actually, I'm going to look at it real quick. I called it payroll in the flow of business. It's how embedded is becoming mission critical. Embedded payroll is becoming mission critical in SaaS platforms. And I really believe that. I'm a huge fan of payroll and I love that it's being brought together with the systems that folks are using every day in their businesses. But yeah, man. But before we get to that, I want to get to know you a little bit or let the audience get to know you.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01] How did you get into this crazy world, man, of HR, payroll benefits and why on earth or what keeps you coming back, man?

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02] It's a great question. I've been paid by ADP for pretty much my entire career. Like I work for larger organizations. I see the ADP emblem in every organization I work. You know, I would say probably I've been with ADP now for 10 years and I would say at least five years prior, there were conversations about, you know, interests from either people I knew, from recruiters to come here.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02] And I think in 2015, it just clicked in the sense that I happened to be looking for a new opportunity. I had a lot of individuals who I'd worked with who had joined ADP because, as you know, a big, big hire in the north, northern New Jersey area. Right. Our headquarters are right in Roseland, New Jersey. Yeah. And as I probed more into the organization, what I saw was an incredible opportunity, an opportunity to be a part of a business and a culture that I love.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02] I love this organization. Right. And really part of an organization that's growing. Like, you know, we have a high growth business. ADP in general is a high growth business, but our small business group is a sort of a high growth accelerator within ADP. And that's what really attracted me to sort of join this organization and this division.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. And, you know, I love that you guys are, I got to be honest, I think you might be the only HR tech sort of company that is at Money 2020, which I think is so fitting, you know, given you guys are paying what one in five people now, I think. Yeah. In America. I mean, that's you're right. Like we've all got we've all probably gotten an ADP paycheck and, you know, maybe even take that for granted a little bit power of all that. So, yeah, very cool, man. Well, look, I want to talk a little bit about, you know, just this rise in embedded technology. Right. And it's bigger than even payroll.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01] But why is is is it has emerged and how is it why is it, you know, the adoption of this really gaining and where are we going sort of in that regard?

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02] You know, as it pertains to small businesses, you know, we've done a lot of research, spoken to a lot of small businesses. I think it just comes down to two or three really simple. I think small businesses, they're just grounded in software. If you look at a typical small business, they, you know, they're using multiple systems just to manage the back office of their organization.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02] Right. So they're thinking of different platforms to collect payments, different platforms to make payments, accounting, cash flow management. You know, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce did a survey back in a few years ago and they estimated that a typical small business could be used in 12 different software packages. So if you think about that's like, you know, 12 different user IDs and passwords that you have to memorize, 12 different systems where you're entering information.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02] To the extent that these systems have your employee information, you're just entered in 12 different times or some subset of the number of times. Yeah. And now, now complicate the fact that if you have multiple office locations, you have high turnover from a perspective of employees, you're in different states. It just amplifies the work effort. So, you know, what we see is a, you know, a frustrated business owner who is simply wants a simple, easy to use back office ecosystem.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02] So they can really focus on what they want to do, which is to grow their business. Right. Yeah. We're also seeing that, you know, these small business owners in their personal life are using a range of platforms that are simpler, easy to use and quite frankly, advancing in terms of simplicity. And their expectation is what we use personally should be equal to what we're using in our work. And that's sort of the expectation that we are seeing in the market.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You know, and look, small businesses, right? I mean, they're starting to get very mature with their tech stacks. Like you said, they're starting to have enterprise problems. And don't forget, too, like we've talked about this a lot on our show, that the all-in-one is very much back for all the reasons that you just talked about, but also that data quality, user experience and all those things that come with that. So, yeah, very cool. But what do you think, like, look, I love that payroll is coming embedded, right? That it's coming closer to the day-to-day activities of businesses, right?

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, for most businesses, payroll is the biggest hit to the P&L, often half or more of maybe the revenues of the company, depending upon the sector. Very complicated. You know, labor is a big piece of what people are doing. You know, having it all kind of right there next to your systems of operation, I think, makes perfect sense. But what do you think sort of differentiates payroll as an embedded financial solution versus maybe a different one?

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you know, I mentioned how like a small business owner might have like a dozen different platforms, but payroll is usually and clearly one of them. But it's probably the most complicated, right? It's the most complicated because there's hundreds of data elements that you have to enter just to set up payroll, right? Right. There's company information, employee information. That employee information is multiplied by the number of employees you have, right? There are preferences for deductions. There's tax rates. There's jurisdictions.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02] So there's just a lot of information that one needs to be collected when you're starting off. But then if you have high employee turnover, you're constantly adding or removing data from your payroll system. Right. Yeah. And that's an area of frustration for a lot of small business owners because one small mistake and you're looking at a penalty from a perspective of a local, federal, or state body because you didn't file taxes correctly. Right.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02] And the funny thing is the information, a lot of the information you're entering exists somewhere else. One of your other systems has the information that you need to make payroll work, but they don't talk to each other. And so, you know, as we looked into this further and further with our small businesses, what we saw was incredible friction. But then with that friction comes incredible opportunity. Right. And that's what sort of amplified the need for like for payroll to be part of an embedded solution. Just this notion.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02] Just get the data right. Just get it right into, you know, in between the systems that I use today and the systems that I need to make payroll work right. Right. And if you do that, you eliminate such a big headache for me.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Yeah. No, that trust in data is so huge right now. And and look, I mean, the reality of it is, is payroll is is is is I don't I hate to call it a problem, but it's it's something every business has to deal with it. They have one employer, a million people. Right. So it's it's an everyone challenge in every every business problem. I guess you could say. But look, one of the things, again, like I love is just bringing payroll where it should have where it should be right adjacent to the things that we're doing every day and operating our businesses. I think about like my wife, she works in transportation in a transportation company.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01] She's kind of part finance, part H.R. in a small firm. And they live in this one system all day long. But you're right. They got to jump out to, you know, and they are actually an ADP customer, but they have to jump out to some other things. They're a bigger they're a bigger firm and they have a stack. Right. That they have to deal with. So that embedded nature is not necessarily there for them. But I can see how it'd be a lot of value to them or any company in any sector where they're living and working in systems of of of of sector, if you will, in business.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_01] But how do you think SaaS leaders, SaaS platforms ought to be looking to think differently about payroll being embedded in their platforms and being natively part of their business solution?

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, there's a lot of factors, a lot of things that they have to consider. Like, you know, first and foremost, how do you build the technology into your existing platform? Right now, every SaaS provider that we talk to, right, they want to get to market in months, not years. Yeah. Right. So the first decision that they have to make is are we building this thing ourselves? Are we going to acquire the technology? Do we want to partner?

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02] And even if we partner, how will how deeply can we integrate the payroll experience into our current experience? Because we all know the deeper and seamless that integration, the better the experience for the joint client. Right. Those are like tough decisions that any platform provider needs to make. But let's say they make that. Right. So they launch. They made the right decision. They have a seamless, great payroll application in their current tech stack.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02] Now, the next question is, how do we what is our operating model? How do we complement this technology with the right level of services to support a small business owner? Right. Right. The key thing is when a small business owner is interested in payroll, it's not just payroll. There's HR capabilities that they may need. So if they're in a particular state that's subject to like a workers' compensation or retirement mandate, which is typically driven by a number of employees that you have. Right. That small business owner is going to have questions.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02] What other products do I need? Now, we are seeing significant gains in AI technology. Right. So the self-help ability in our tools has grown considerably. But in many cases, you want to talk to somebody. So if you're that platform owner, do you have the staff on hand to deal with these questions? Even during the course of onboarding, you know, when you enter in information, it's pretty straightforward. But you might have a complicated PTO plan that you want to offer your employees.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Right. You may have an employee that has a garnishment. That is really hard to enter. If you don't know what you're doing, you typically need help. And even when you are live, like let's just say you get you offer the technology, you have a great onboarding experience for your clients. They're running payroll. You think that things are going great. And in most cases they are. Right. But now all of a sudden you come across a use case where you're hiring an employee in a different state. You've never done that before. You've registered for state ID. Right. How do you do that? Right.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02] Or you get you may get a letter from the federal, local or state body about a clarification or a need to respond. And if you don't do that correctly, you could be subject to a penalty. How do you how do you do that? So there's often cases even clients that have been with us for years need our help at times. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, as that platform provider, you need to think about all those use cases, making sure that you could provide a great experience. Similar to what you provide for your core product.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02] You want to be able to provide that experience for the payroll solution as well.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, absolutely. You're a SaaS provider trying to kick the tires on on an opportunity to add payroll into your world. There's more to it than tech. Right. There's that there's that activation of the services to continue the last mile elements of payroll. Right. Filing taxes and making sure things are monitored and kept up to date. So major decision there, I think. And you're right. The risk is rising for small businesses now.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01] It's, you know, especially those that are starting to step out, you know, beyond their state or beyond their country. They're really compounding the risk, I think, in a lot of ways. So before we continue, I've got one quick favor to ask. If HR and payroll 2.0 is helping you think differently about the future of work, pay and technology. Well, please follow or subscribe wherever you're listening. Leave us a rating, add a comment and share this episode with someone who should hear it. It all helps the show grow. But more importantly, it helps these conversations reach more leaders like you who are shaping what comes next.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01] You know, one of the things that's always kind of frustrated me. I'm a payroll practitioner. I used to lead payroll for Disney years ago. I'm an analyst now. I study and see what's coming. I help influence a lot of the solutions. But one of the things that's always frustrated me is that payroll innovation feels like it hasn't kept up with the criticality. Right. And I think that that's changing, to your point, with AI, with cloud, with APIs. All of the advancements that we've seen in recent years has really helped.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01] But why do you think maybe that has sort of forced itself in terms of the risk equation for small businesses? Is that kind of coming off of the back end of what you're talking about there? I mean, where do you think that that's helping those organizations?

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02] I think one of the biggest, I would say, inhibitors of moving as fast as everyone would want to in our sector is, as everybody knows, payroll is both complicated and highly regulated. We have thousands and thousands of jurisdictions that we hold in our system and that we compute tax rates for. There are certain states that have not only federal and state level taxes, but locales as well. And we need to make sure that your employee can literally be two miles away.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02] Two employees can be two miles away from each other and have different local jurisdictions as well. So that has always been the factor that a small business owner, the number one thing they want is their employees to be paid correctly. Right. Right. Yep. That's the number one thing. Because the minute you make a mistake there, you have a lot of problems. Right. So I think, you know, having a solution that can make sure that headache from a small business owner is, have I paid my employees correctly? Are they getting paid on my check date? That's the number one thing.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02] But the great thing about embedded, once again, right, is that because we are taking data likely from a system that you use more often than payroll, right? An average customer might log into a payroll platform a handful of times. But they might log into their CRM or their POS, right, or their engagement tools more often. So they know the data in those systems is accurate because they just wouldn't build a function. Their business wouldn't work.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02] And if we can plug into those systems through an embedded fashion and get that data that we know is accurate, that alleviates a lot of pain. And by the way, it facilitates more innovation because once you've survived the fact that you have good data and you know that you're computing the payroll correctly, you can now empower other use cases, right? Right.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02] If you're a financial institution and you have a payroll obligation and you know that the client can't meet the payroll obligation, you could offer short-term lending products as an example, right? There's so many other strategic opportunities, synergistic opportunities that could be unraveled once your embedded payroll solution is working correctly with your core product.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I think about that from the SaaS provider's perspective, right? I mean, the opportunity to add something that every business needs, right? I think I've seen it at an $11 billion opportunity globally, right, for any company needs payroll. But if I'm a SaaS provider and I can bring that high-value, high-touch solution that every company needs to the table, now I've increased the value for my platform, created maybe more stickiness, and I didn't have to build that competency, right?

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01] We're not all ADP. We're not all going to be, you know, even if we had the best ambitions, we can't be overnight. It takes years to build that capability. Now with embedded, I think I love the fact that you're, you know, you can turn that on very turnkey as a SaaS provider. But what are the types of providers and platforms that you see evaluating embedded payroll for their products? And do you think there's any that are better than others, like in any sectors?

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02] We are seeing demand from so many different verticals, from banks and financial institutions, point-of-sale providers, vertical CRM providers. So think of, you know, there are software providers that cater to the legal, medical, dental industry, right? We've got platforms that are core to these small businesses. They use it all the time. All of their data, all of their files interact with this system. It only makes logical sense to add payroll to that system, right? It's a very logical add-on.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02] In addition to accounting or cash flow management, you name it, right? But you have the center of the universe from a perspective of a small business owner in these CRM systems. And the key thing that they're missing right now is a critical piece like payroll, right? So we're seeing demand from so many different sectors. I would say any SaaS provider that has a large concentration of small businesses is likely talking to providers like us and is very interested in expanding and consuming our services.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02] And that demand has grown considerably just in the last four years or so.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. I had the pleasure of talking to Fiserv, who you guys have teamed up with Clover, right? Small business platform. You've brought your solution embedded in there. And yeah, just really interesting to see how they're having a lot of success with that. And again, that all-in-one, right? I mean, I think if you're a business owner, you want that one-stop shop of being able to pick up and handle the most important pieces in your business.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01] So what do you think are some of the misconceptions or myths or maybe blind spots for how SaaS providers are approaching this decision? And what should they be asking that maybe they're not asking?

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, Pete, Greg, you touched on this earlier, which is, I think some of the early entrants from a provider perspective and early adopters had this misconception that it's a tech-only solution. Yeah. The notion that I can take this technology, have a great experience, and my prospective clients will independently purchase, will independently self-serve, and will independently just run payroll.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02] And that could work for the micro end, like maybe a small segment of very simple clients. It's likely that that may work. But the overwhelming majority of even small, even like 10 employee, 15 employee organizations, they're going to need help, right? They're going to, and in pretty much all the capacities that I mentioned earlier, right? If they need help during the course of onboarding, by the way, that SaaS platform provider is going to need help marketing their solution, right?

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02] Because they're going to need to make sure they create awareness to their existing customer base and future customer base that now payroll exists. And consistent to what I shared before, when those prospective customers are onboarding or using the product, they're going to need service. The technology, don't get me wrong, is super important. It starts with the tech. If you don't have that, you don't have the business. But complementing with everything else you need is probably, I would say, almost equally as important.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02] And what we're seeing is those that maybe jumped in thinking it was a tech-only solution, that is, you know, providers, didn't realize the complication that they had to take on. Yeah. And more of them, in fact, have retracted from offering payroll and then are now contemplating going back in with a more all-inclusive solution.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, I see the same. And just kind of thinking back, you know, in the e-book that I put together, I gave my, you know, based on my research, my selection criteria that I think people should evaluate. And one of the keys is that service is underpinning, that ADP is so well known for. But what do you think are some of the other evaluation criteria that you think are maybe underweight that folks should be, you know, maybe putting more emphasis on?

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02] So, you know, let's say you made a decision to go to embedded payroll, you've identified the right technology path, you've complemented with the right set of services, and you think, great, I'm in the market, I'm getting a lot of clients. You're still not done. Right. Because guess what happens in our business? We do hundreds of updates, regulatory updates a year. Right. This is a never-ending game. Right. There's always change in our business. Right.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02] It could be as simple as a minimum wage update in a particular jurisdiction. That's easy. Or it could be something much larger. I mean, just in the past 12 months, the big, beautiful bill got introduced. Right. Right. Yeah. It introduced, like, withholding requirements for overtime and TIP-eligible employees. Right. So that definitely, that changed the way you compute taxes. It changed the way you account for taxes. It changed the way how you show that in the W-2. Right.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02] That had implications from the experience to how you support, to how you then roll out. And that's one of 300 changes we did just in the past year alone. So I think the one misconception is that it's one built once and you've done. It is a constantly evolving game in terms of making sure that you're staying on top of these varying regulations that happen year in and year out.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. That's one of the myths. I think one of the things that is a miss by cloud application buyers, you know, when they're going to a large cloud solution is they have to have an application management model to maintain that platform. And so I think that's a great, you just made a great case for why a partner, especially a partner who lives and breathes payroll makes a lot of sense to be managing that for you versus trying to go and build it on your own and create this competency. Maybe you don't actually have as an organization.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01] So let's talk a little bit about like, maybe we can prognosticate here a little bit, man. What is the SaaS landscape going to look like for platforms that maybe ignore embedded solutions like particularly the embedded value prop or embedded payroll?

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02] You know, we do a lot of research in this area. We think of our business and what's made us successful. What's made us historically successful is a standalone payroll solution. And we win in the market because we offer great technology backed by good service. But if we look at the way the trends are moving and consistent to what we talked about earlier about the expectations of our small business owner, they want it to be simple. They want it to be accurate. They don't want it to be less of a headache. They want it to be integrated.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02] And so what we're seeing is if you are a SaaS platform provider with a large base of small businesses, it's highly likely if you're not considering it, your competitor is considering an embedded payroll solution. It's a natural compliment. It's going to be a natural thing to add in addition to other services and products as well. But what we're seeing in the market is effectively a desire for SaaS platform providers to be the hub of the small business owner. Right.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02] And there's many of them that are trying to be the hub. And then there are providers like us who could be embedded into that hub. Right. And that's the movement we are seeing. So to answer your question, if you're a SaaS platform provider, I think it's important for you to consider a service that we offer primarily because I think you want to be relevant and you want to be competitive in the market.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. And I mean, I think it extends the value. We talked about that earlier, right? The stickiness with your client, the ability to put forth a differentiated competitive footprint right in front of your peers. So it is going to be interesting, though. I think the SaaS platforms are all kind of working to be there, you know, be the front door to the worker, be the front door to the to the workplace, but also be the launch pad for all the things that the business wants to do. So that interoperability and engagement and, you know, APIs and connections are going to be very, very critical also.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01] All right. So look, man, it's always my favorite part to kind of round this out, man. Where do you see embedded solutions maturing towards in, you know, say the next five years? Like what's your what's your outlook for this and where we're headed? Yeah.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02] When you think of our at least our industry in terms of payroll, right? So, you know, there's about six million clients that we see that we define as small business clients who need payroll. So first and foremost, we see that market growth. We see a continued pace of new business formations. And so we see that the need for payrolls will continue to grow as it has over the last several years. We also see this movement, as I shared before, which is less of a standalone and more of a

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_02] holistic platform of which, you know, there'll be the platform providers and then those who which are the hub, like I said before, and those who are embedded in that hub. And then, you know, probably the third biggest movement is just a continued evolution of AI in our space. So, you know, we have tools right now that have significantly improved the self-serviceability of payroll within our systems, right?

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02] So this notion of if I need help, if I have a question, right, we can offer that much. By the way, we're available. We offer, you know, a service model where we're available 365 days a year, 24-7. But guess what? We're finding more and more clients don't need to call us, especially if it's something simple, right? If they want a validation, if they need help, right? There's so much self-help capability that's being developed through our AI tools. And it's not just from a support perspective, but it's also from a capability perspective as well, right?

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02] So if you're adding a new employee, we can better uncover related products that might be helpful for this employee. Or if you're entering data and, for example, you're entering a rate that's below minimum wage, we could surface that more easily in the product. So we are adding significant capabilities just because of the emergence of technology. So if you fast forward, you know, several years forward, and as these technologies continue

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02] to mature, I think we'll offer more and more capability in the product. And going back to what we said before, more and more seamless and easy capability for our small business owners. Like, in fact, removing that headache for our small business owners, which is what they want, as I shared before. They just want to run their business.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01] Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, I love that, man. And I think I would even say removing risks too, right? Like helping people manage a very, very consequential process for their business, for their employees. And I love the automation and augmentation part of this. But also, like you said, I mean, the data and insights are rich to a business. And I think one of the things that gets completely overlooked with payroll is the orgogility enablement of that, right? Being able to scale, flex, be confident that you're doing the right things for your people.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01] But also then using that data and information to help you make good decisions about your workforce. So I love that it's getting closer and closer to the systems that we use every day. And there's a lot of value in that, I think, because we've just illustrated. So Anand, anything else to kind of wrap this up, man? Where can folks get in touch with you as well?

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, absolutely. You know, if you go to our embedded payroll site, it's basically, if you look up ADP small business, you will clearly see on ADP.com our embedded offerings. If you're interested, both as a SaaS platform provider, you're welcome to express interest. We have various ways to contact us. If you're a prospective client and you're interested in an embedded offering, whether that be through one of our existing partners or if you want our standalone, you're welcome to express that interest as well.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02] But we are here. You know, we are one of the largest payroll providers in the world. And like I said before, we see this space continuing to grow. So I'm hoping, Pete, that we continue to do these sessions and I'll give you a progression on how this industry is moving over the course of the next several months.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01] I do, man. I do. I do. I love it. I want you to come back and I want to talk about this again. Maybe next year we'll be talking something more, right? Who knows? More AI. But yeah, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate you taking the time. And I'll make sure to share the links to that. I'll share your LinkedIn. I'll also share the ebook that I published with ADP earlier this year. And yeah, man, thank you. Appreciate you so much. And thank you so much to the audience as always. You know, like, share, subscribe. It helps the show. And we'll be back with more great conversations like this soon.

[00:28:15] Thank you. Thank you.