Dr. Robyn Short - The $3,216 Line Item Nobody Tracks: What Conflict Data Reveals About How Organizations Distribute Power

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_05] Welcome to the HR Data Labs Podcast, now part of the Work Defined Podcast Network. Join us as we explore the vital role of compensation, strategy, data, and people analytics in navigating today's complex business world. With the resources of Work Defined, we're now bringing you deeper insights and actionable ideas from top experts. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_05] Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs Podcast. I am your host, David Turetsky. And I'm very excited today because I have with us Dr. Robyn Short of the Workplace Peace Institute. Dr. Short, how are you today?

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00] I am wonderful. I'm great. Thank you so much, David.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_05] And we need to know much more about you, Dr. Short, because it's just cool to even say the words Workplace Peace Institute because there ain't no peace at work these days.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01] There is a little bit of peace in some places, but we have a lot of work to do indeed.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_05] Yes. No pun intended.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Yes.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_05] So tell us a little bit about that and also what your book is about.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you. Yes. Okay. So the Workplace Peace Institute is a organization systems design and research firm. So what that means is that we work with executives and organizational leaders in intentionally designing workplace systems so that the system itself is cultivating peace in the workplace.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00] And when we talk about peace, what we're really talking about is that people have the ability to access their basic human needs and their dignity needs at work. And this, gosh, like more than decade long journey with Workplace Peace Institute led me to write a new book called The Matriarch Effect. And that book came out this summer. It's something I'm really excited about.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00] And what The Matriarch Effect is doing is looking at how the patriarchy as an organizing principle, not anything to do with gender, but as organizing principles has led to exactly what you just said, not much peace in the workplace.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_00] And that if we design differently, then we can build organizations that are really orienting around matriarchical principles of care and nurturance and compassion and connection. All those things necessary for human flourishing.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_05] Wow. Let's hope it's successful. And let's hope a lot of people read that book. And we'll put a link in our show notes so that people have access to it.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00] Wonderful. Thank you so much.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_05] Before we get going, Dr. Short, though, we need to know what's one fun thing that no one knows about you.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00] Well, first of all, please feel free to call me Robin. Let's have a very casual conversation. So the one fun thing that not a lot of people know about me, you would only know this about me if you spend time riding in the car with me. And that is that I am a total Swifty. I pretty much only listen to Taylor Swift in the car. That's great. That's awesome.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_05] Hey, listen, a lot of us get Taylor Swift in small doses. If you've got a teenager, you may get it in larger doses. But there's nothing wrong with that. We all have our, you know, our musical tastes.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01] That's right. Exactly.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_05] And heck, she has a plethora of phenomenal music.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01] She really does.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00] And what I really love about Taylor Swift is she's a matriarchical leader. And so I'm really, I have been very fascinated to watch the emergence of this young leader in the world and the way that she leads her organization. I find pretty fascinating.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_05] I've heard some stories. And obviously, this gets away from our topic for a little bit, but not much. But I've heard some stories about how she treats her staff on the road and how she treats the teamsters, the union people, the people who take care of her. And it's actually pretty cool.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00] It really is. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_05] All right. Wonderful. Well, so we're going to get into our topic right now. And I think it'll be a kind of a fascinating thing for a lot of us. This is going to be a tough one. The $3,216 line item nobody tracks. What conflict data reveals about how organizations distribute power. This is perfect for the HR Data Labs podcast. We're getting into it in just one second.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_05] So today's episode of the HR Data Labs podcast is sponsored by Work Carousel. Find out more at workcarousel.com slash join. It's a new social media platform focused on bringing your true and authentic self to work. The world of work. It's where the world of work is told honestly. So, Robin, I'm fascinated by the topic title.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_05] But let's talk about how we got that. Because your team at the Workplace Peace Institute ran a study. And we love talking about studies because we love talking about data on the HR Data Labs podcast. You studied conflict in the U.S. workplace and you came out with a number. How did you get to $3,200 lost per year due to conflict? How did you get there?

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00] So, how we arrived at that number is looking at the number of hours spent per week per employee on doing nothing but navigating conflict. And then applying that to the average median income of the average employee. And the cost is pretty outrageous.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00] And what I have found fascinating is that you can, anyone who works in leadership or works in HR should be 100% certain we're going to be dealing with conflict in the workplace. And nobody puts it in the budget.

[00:06:10] No.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_05] No, because I think a lot of people who listen to this program have heard us say this in the past. We all ignore our authentic self coming to work. We're all robots. We're all automatons. We're all AI. We come to work. We're supposed to do what we do without any emotions, any feelings at all. And then go home. And we spend a lot of our waking life at work dealing with work problems, dealing with everybody else's stuff. I'm not going to use a curse word.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_05] But dealing with other people's stuff and dealing with our own. We don't shut our personal lives down when we walk into the world of work. It's just crazy.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00] No, we absolutely can't shut our personal lives down. And what's interesting, I think, is for those of us who are Gen X and older, somewhere along the way, we were actually told to leave our emotions at the door. Yes, we did. And to not take it personal. It's just business.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00] And what all of the emerging research shows is that we actually are feeling creatures who think, not thinking creatures who feel. And so the idea that we could even leave our emotions at the door is biologically impossible. Oh, it's crap.

[00:07:22] Right.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_05] It's just crap. It came from, to your point before, the patriarchy saying, you know, don't cry. You can't cry. You're not supposed to show emotion.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_05] Well, that worked for 1940s and the army structure of how things work or the government structure of how things work. Right. But it doesn't work at a grocery store. You know, it doesn't work.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_05] It doesn't work, you know, at a manufacturing organization. You know. No. People will get upset.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00] It doesn't work anywhere. And in my, actually, I was just doing a mediation yesterday and one of the people in the mediation started to cry and immediately apologized.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00] And I said, don't apologize. That's a natural nervous system response. It is a coping mechanism to stress. If you cry, you cry. Don't worry about it at all.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_05] I get this all the time. I actually, let's be completely transparent here. The other day, I was under tremendous stress. Last week, actually. And I have a lot going on personally and professionally. And I just went into my bedroom and just started crying my eyes out. All right. Well, I'm almost a 60-year-old man. And my dad told me, you know, fuck up, kiddo. You know, don't cry. It's okay. You don't have to cry. Well, no, no. You do have to cry. You do have to let it out sometimes.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_05] Because if not, what happens? Your blood pressure goes up. Your stress levels will go through the roof. Is it cortisol? A cortisol? Or there's some kind of chemical that's right. Yes.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00] You know, what's interesting about what you're saying, and first of all, I just love that as a 60-year-old white man, you're telling all of your listeners that you cry. I really appreciate you normalizing that.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_05] I have literally broken down and cried on this podcast.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, yeah.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_05] Because, and this is a long time ago, Robin, but we'll talk about it later.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00] Well, what's interesting is I have an autoimmune condition that actually makes it not impossible, but extremely difficult for my body to produce tears. Wow. And so when I have that need for that kind of stress response, I can't do it. Wow. And so it converts into raging energy.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00] It converts into me being really angry and expressing anger that way, which isn't authentic to what I'm feeling on the inside. Of course. Right. And it doesn't then translate in a healthy way to the people around me.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. They're confused probably.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00] Extremely, for sure. For sure.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_05] What's funny is, not funny, but what's interesting about this is a lot of us have channeled these questions about how our body responds to things and our mind responds to things. And there's one of my friends, one of my great friends in this world of HR who talks about this openly as Tracy Spannenberg. Well, she said, hey, there's something not right with me. And by the way, I'm not outing her. She's very public about this.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_05] But she said, there's something not right about me. So she went and got checked and realized that she had undiagnosed spectrum disorder. Ooh. And I have two children that are on the spectrum. And, you know, I saw a t-shirt the other day that said undiagnosed, but something just ain't right. And that's the way I feel about a lot of the people I deal with, because it's not that I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with them, quote unquote.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_05] But when we're dealing in a situation, especially at work, the understanding or the lack thereof of the what's undiagnosed will, because you said it very well, that there's something about you that translates sadness into rage. But what if you don't? And Robin, I'm curious to think, how do we translate that back to the subject of the lost productivity?

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_05] How do people channel those energies or understand, or do we actually even have the tools to understand how do we figure that out without actually getting diagnosed?

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00] Sure. Yeah. So one of my teachers, Ken Cloak, he always asked us to pose this question. What would have to happen in order for me to behave this way? And when you see behaviors and emotions showing up, what would have to happen for me to behave this way? And another person I know who is a therapist said every behavior is rational. Every irrational behavior is rational in the right context.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00] And both of those allow us to open up curiosity. And I think curiosity is the birthplace of compassion. If I can't first get curious, then I can't lean in with care and compassion. And so I often, when I see behaviors in people in the workplace, people that I'm working with,

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00] who seem disproportionate to the situation, or who they just seem a little antisocial, or they don't emote the way you would expect them to do. I just tell myself, act as if. Act as if this person is on the spectrum. Act as if this person is having a really difficult experience. And you know about that. And then all of a sudden, I can see it through a different lens. And I can see it as not being about me at all.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_05] That takes skills. And a lot of people don't have that skill, Robin. A lot of people don't know and they get triggered by that response. The lack of compassion. They get triggered by the lack of compassion. How can you not? Instead of internalizing it, thinking about a minute, and going, hmm, something just ain't right. Right. Why don't I treat that person as if I knew that they were on the spectrum?

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_05] And I had this problem early on when my son was diagnosed with a spectrum disorder. I didn't know he had that. And he would fight me to go out and socialize with the other two kids and to even go get ice cream and things like that. Every kid wants ice cream. But he didn't want to leave his room. And I would fight with him and I would yell at him and I would scream at him and I would curse at him. And then I found out what was going on.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_05] And that was an emotional trigger to me to go, oh my God, what have I been doing? I'm traumatizing this kid. And now he and I have a better relationship because I know how to talk to him. I know how. But that takes skill, Robin. People don't have it.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00] No, people don't have it. One of the things that I think about a lot and talk about a lot when I'm just in conversation with people is it appears as though my Irish setter came into this world really understanding how to be an Irish setter. And humans come into this world really not having skills in humaning. And one of my teachers, Margaret Wheatley, in her book, Who Do We Choose To Be?,

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00] talks about the word homo homo sapiens. She's like, in our actual naming of the species, it is human, human first, as though we needed to be reminded. And this idea of remembering what it means to be human, I think, begins with, I'm not sure most of us even know how to be human.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_05] No. Well, we're also in a political environment right now where being human is a failing. And having compassion is woke. And the things we're talking about are almost frowned upon in certain ways in certain circles, which I find odd because in the faith that I grew up with and in the faith that a lot of us grew up with,

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_05] one of the things we're taught is to treat your neighbor the way you want to be treated and to show compassion. And it's just remarkable to me that even at work, when, you know, again, we're not supposed to show our authentic self, I try and be as compassionate as possible. And that's a failing, apparently.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00] Well, it isn't a failing. But I will say in this moment in our current human experience, fear is being used as a tool. And if we can keep, if we can keep, if those people who benefit from us being afraid of one another can sustain our ability to be afraid of one another, then we can't do the connection and the collaboration

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_00] that's necessary for collective power that leads to systems change. And so it's very beneficial for people who want to sustain all of the destructive things that are happening in this moment for us to be afraid of one another.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_05] So one of the things I find, and especially in the world of pay transparency, is that there's been a breakdown in what do I do? And how do I trust my boss? Or how do I trust my company? Because I don't know what my role is. I, you know, I hear snippets from what my job description was, I remember, because I don't really have an up-to-date job description. But I hear from my boss every once in a while about what I'm supposed to be doing. And I hear a lot about AI coming into the world of work.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_05] And I don't really trust it anymore. So what do we do about that to clear this up, to make sure that people have that? It's not even about the compassion you were talking about. It's about having that trust that they are part of a system that's going to not really care about them, not really instill them with fear. But how do they go to work and be okay?

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00] How do we go to work? I want to make sure I understand the question. How do we go to work and operate inside of systems that we can reliably trust are working against us?

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_05] And because there's uncertainty. And that uncertainty leads to that fear. Especially given the fact that we keep hearing in the news, AI is going to take your job. AI is going to replace you. And there's a lot of unemployment. And people are having a hard time finding jobs. And there's a lot less role clarity than there used to be.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Okay, so.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_05] How do we operate in that environment?

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. So I have a lot of thoughts about that. The higher up, the hierarchy you go, the further distance that you have from the real people, the more institutional authority that you hold. Research shows the less capacity for empathy you actually have. So with increased power comes reduced empathy. And that's biological.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00] So if you are a CEO of a large organization, you can override that. But you need to know that it's biological and then you need to be intentional about it. Okay, so your question is operating under the assumption they're not doing that work. All the research shows, and Gallup has done a lot of this research, shows that the most influential person in a worker's life is their manager. And our manager isn't that far up the food chain.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00] And so our manager hasn't moved into that biological dysfunction of losing capacity for empathy. But they are sitting in the middle and so they're acting as a buffer. So I think the first step toward how do we operate in these spaces that are difficult to trust is building real relationship with your manager. And for managers to build real relationship with the people that they support.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00] And if the manager isn't doing that work, then the individual contributor does that work managing up to be sure they're building a real rapport so that that relationship capacity and the resiliency that comes with relationship is possible. The second piece around sort of distrusting all of the ways that systems are actually working against us and AI is,

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00] I think that there is like two things are true at one time, that on some level, AI really is going to replace some people's jobs. And on another level, AI is going to radically change a person's existing job but not replace it. And I think everyone needs to be paying extremely close attention to what Darwin taught us, evolve or die.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00] And so if we're not paying attention and we're not actually taking our own individual responsibility for that evolution, we may very well find ourselves replaced. And so I do think that it's going to require a lot of individual curiosity and individual commitment to their own upskilling in order for them to do the evolving on their own. I don't think you can rely on the system to support you in that evolution.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_05] Well, sometimes the system fails you because your manager gets canned and that relationship you've fomented. And we've seen a lot of delayering happening in lots of organizations over time. And so that manager and that relationship you've fomented over time goes away. And now you have a new manager who you didn't kind of sign up for that. And so now you have to rebuild that entire trust structure and empathy structure. And it doesn't exist.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_05] Or it may not have existed in the way that you had what like you were saying with that one level up. Now it might be two or three levels up. And so the first part of my question back to you is, how do you deal with that now that you have the skip level relationship? And now you are going higher up or getting, not you necessarily are going higher up, but you're now reporting more higher level where the empathy may be less because of that biological function. How do we deal with that?

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, I certainly do not have all the answers with this. But I think that in every way that we possibly can, we're thinking about how am I supporting this person's effectiveness? Like just simply being a tool to their own success. How do I make myself invaluable to these individuals in this hierarchy

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00] in a way that is mutually beneficial? And also, I think that requires an enormous amount of emotional steadiness so that we're not actually taking the bait and getting caught up in our own triggers around the complexity of it and how much work it actually is.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_05] You also said that evolve or die, basically, which is making yourself more valuable to the hierarchy by changing the way you work. And we've been saying this on this podcast. I think it actually goes back four years now that we've been saying this, that AI will not replace you as much as people who understand and utilize it as a tool will replace you.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_05] And there have been, obviously, examples throughout history where AI or technologies have replaced people. But more so, the evolution of the industries or the knowledge of learning, whatever that new technology is, whether it was the web, whether it was computers coming into our workplace, whether it was the steam engine, whatever it was, people started cottage industries, which became bigger industries around them.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_05] And we're seeing that happening today. So while one opportunity may close, another window might open. Or window might close, or door might close, another door might open.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01] Sorry. Something closes and something opens. Yeah, you know what I mean.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_05] It's like, but you can become more valuable to that hierarchy by then flying closer to that flame.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00] I think about it as being close, paying close attention to and finding ways to contribute meaningfully to the core thing this particular thing exists to produce, right? So when I was growing up in high school, we rented movies from Blockbuster. Now we watch them on Netflix. If I was working in that industry at that time,

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00] how am I staying really connected to what the consumer is trying to achieve from this so I can evolve with the industry versus getting so mired into my one little piece of how the little cog I am in this engine that then does get replaced, right?

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. But that's actually a great lesson that you bring up, Robin. Phenomenal lesson. Think about the pace of change between the time of the television premiering and videotape and production studios videotape and then CDs, DVDs, you know, Blu-ray and then streaming. And even the evolution between, you know, the TiVo and now these little boxes are actually software

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_05] that's built into the television set that controls that whole experience. The time of change or the pace of change in there was breakneck. And the people who innovated and said, hey, there's this cool thing. Why don't we try it? And the others who said, no, we've got a good thing going here. Do you remember BMG Records?

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00] I've heard of them, but I don't really know anything about it.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_05] So BMG used to be that company that you'd send in the form and you'd get a seven or eight or actually 15 discs back in the mail in that package. And that would be your monthly allowance of getting music.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_05] And you'd send in the form and then you'd send another form and send another form. It's kind of like a mail order of DVD or CDs. I have millions of CDs. I used to have millions of CDs because of that. Well, that was the way we got our music. We didn't go to the music store anymore. We got it through that. And it was really cheap. It was like ridiculous. It was like $8 per. That is a great lesson for where we are now. BMG just closed. Not too long ago. Just recently, they closed.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_05] So there were still people buying CDs. Oh, isn't that wild? It's wild. Just like the last blockbusters in like someplace in Oregon, I think still. Crazy.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But it's still there. We live in this area where we have a lot of local musicians come to do these house concerts and they always are selling CDs. And I'm like, I don't know how to listen to this. I don't know. Who is buying this?

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_05] Well, there literally are and there is an industry about CDs. You can actually literally buy a CD that you'd plug in via USB into your computer.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00] Fascinating.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. But even that whole complexity around that and actually being able to create them that's a relic.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02] But yet, in fact, I actually have it over here. I have one. There you go. I bought this. You know what this is? I don't think you could see it. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_05] It's a floppy drive.

[00:27:25] Yeah.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_05] I literally had floppy drives that are formatted in DOS that I can still read using this. Mm-hmm. I got it from China for $10. Yeah. But it's a relic of the past because I had relics that I literally took off a shelf and said, I have something on here that would be mind-blowing right now to take a look at. And it was an algorithm

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_05] that I had made in 1989, 1990. But, Robin, it still works. Uh-huh. I can still do it. That's wild.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Well, this whole conversation makes me think about, kind of comes full circle to being a more human human, that in the Industrial Revolution, we began to treat humans like machines. Yes. We've now evolved to where we have machines doing a lot of human work. And we're at this point where we have to really, really lean into what it really means to be human again. And I think those are going to be the people who are able to really evolve

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00] that are leaning into these deeply human skills and capacities.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_05] But it was really fascinating. We started the conversation talking about $3,200, right? And that's lost productivity because of conflict in work. And the one thing I've been dying to ask you about that is, if you look at that median wage, that percentage of pay is what? 10%? Or is it a little less than 10%? Of? Of the median wage that you used in that study.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_05] It must be really small because the median wage

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00] The median wage was like, I can't remember what it was, but it was like in the $20. Like it was not what we're, it's not what most professional workers are making. Yeah. So it's actually, the number is much larger.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_05] Right. Right. Okay. Well, so, but if it's 20, that would be around 4,000 something. Mm-hmm. If it was 10%. But you get what my point is here. It's still a lot of money. Right. Relative to what that person's earning or most of the people or even half of the working world is earning. And that's, that's a tremendous loss.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00] And all, it's a tremendous loss. And all of the things that are driving that conflict, that's driving that number, isn't, I don't know how to use this machine. Mm-hmm. It's, I don't know how to interact with this human in such a way that allows me to continue to do my work in a healthy, functioning way. It's all deeply human.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_05] Well, and we see the loss all the time. We see conflicts happening in a McDonald's or there was a school shooting, you know, you know, where it's a place of work. Right. And yes, it's kids there, but it's a place of work. And the stress that that brings throughout the entire world, not just the United States, but the United States is where most of the stuff, you know, happens that we see. And again, how do you not fear for your children, for your safety?

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02] And that, tremendous cost. Right. I know.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_05] So, I think we're going to have to ask you back because there are so many other ways we could take this, Robin, that I really appreciate your time and my gosh, the conversation was wonderful. So, if you don't mind, I will ask you back again. I would love that.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00] Wonderful. Thank you. Well,

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_05] thank you so much for being here.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_05] My pleasure. And thank you all for listening. Take care. And stay safe. Thank you for listening to the HR Data Labs podcast. Don't forget to hit subscribe and share it with your network. You can also check out the recordings on Spotify or the HR channel now on Roku and Fire TV. Thank you. Take care. And stay safe. Bye. Bye.

[00:31:16] Bye. Bye.