Bruce Cohen - Building a Best-in-Class Performance Management System in 2026 and Beyond

[00:00:03] Welcome to the HR Data Labs Podcast, now part of the WorkDefined Podcast Network. Join us as we explore the vital role of compensation, strategy, data, and people analytics in navigating today's complex business world. With the resources of WorkDefined, we're now bringing you deeper insights and actionable ideas from top experts. Now, here is your host, David Turetsky.

[00:00:26] Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs Podcast. I am your host, David Turetsky, and I have with me one of my dearest and oldest friends and colleagues back from the days when we used to work for a company called Morgan Stanley, Bruce Cohen. Bruce, how are you? Bruce Cohen- I'm doing great, and it's great to be with you, David. David Turetsky By the way, if you don't know Bruce, let me just tell you something. Bruce hasn't changed a bit in over 30 years. He still looks exact, I mean, his hair is a little bit not as...

[00:00:55] He's not as black as it used to be or as dark as it used to be, but he literally looks exactly the same as he did back then. He's this... It's just a gentle giant, an imposing figure, just the nicest person you could meet in the investment banking world. I don't know if I could describe you any differently. David Turetsky That's very, very kind. Too kind. No, come on. David Turetsky I appreciate that. Bruce, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and how you got to this moment in time.

[00:01:22] David Turetsky Sure. First of all, it's great to be with you. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I worked as a senior leader on Wall Street in human resources for nearly four decades, mostly at Morgan Stanley, where David and I work together, as he said, and Citibank.

[00:01:39] And these past seven years, I have been teaching HR classes for Cornell on their virtual learning platform, eCornell, in organizational design and compensation and labor relations and performance management. David Turetsky Awesome. Well, we're going to talk a lot about that today. David Turetsky Great. David Turetsky And so how do you like being a professor? David Turetsky You know, it's been really interesting.

[00:02:06] They call us facilitators, and what we get to do is kind of facilitate the HR classes that were designed by Cornell professors, but they're not involved in really, you know, teaching the class. David Turetsky Yes, we are. They identify, you know, executive practitioners in various fields.

[00:02:28] And so what's been great is to work with students who are really five to 60 years old and looking to expand into HR or build their HR skills. So a highly motivated group of people. It's been a lot of fun. David Turetsky So you're never too young and you're never too old to take these classes. David Turetsky That's right. Exactly. If you want to learn, we're there to help you.

[00:02:53] David Turetsky And again, for those of you who don't know Bruce, it would be like listening to someone who's not only done it, someone who brings it. I mean, Bruce is one of those people who has literally lived in those trenches, as he said, for decades and has seen pretty much probably everything, especially from the banking world. But I'm sure that if you were in that ILR class or the eCornell class, you'd learn a lot from him.

[00:03:20] David Turetsky Wow. What's been fun about it is really having spent my entire career, as you say, in financial services, it's been great to be exposed to many other industries. David Turetsky Right. David Turetsky Given that my students come from all different areas of the economy and various countries around the world as well. David Turetsky Yeah, that must be fun too, to get to know them wherever they live. David Turetsky But Bruce, before we go on, before we talk about the topic, what's one fun thing that no one knows about Bruce Cohen?

[00:03:48] Bruce Cohen Well, there's a fun thing, kind of surprising, and it's a sports achievement. And it's crazy to say this, but I have had three holes in one in golf. And while that's reasonably surprising, I'm actually kind of a mediocre golfer. So what it shows is it is better to be lucky sometimes than to be highly skilled. David Turetsky That is certainly true.

[00:04:15] As a goalie, as a hockey goalie, it is much better to be lucky sometimes. David Turetsky Because I would never call myself a good goalie. I mean, some other people have, but I won't tell names. David Turetsky Well, maybe clearly courageous to... I remember those days where you would kind of lug in the goalie equipment maybe to work, right? Bruce Cohen Yeah, yeah. Well, I think at the time there was Sky Rink in New York. And so there were wonderful places in New York. But I also, I loved playing hockey. I still do.

[00:04:45] And I actually, being in Massachusetts, I used to get to play multiple times a week. Not anymore. But so do you have... David Turetsky I'm a big Ranger fan, which hasn't worked out well for us this year. David Turetsky There's my Rangers whatever swag over there. But yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, yeah. That's depressing. So Bruce, let's get into the topic. Our topic today is how to build a best-in-class performance management system.

[00:05:11] And I'm sure a lot of people who go through this pain every year really want to hear about this. We're going to do it right after the break. Katie Van Horn And I'm Jackie Clayton.

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[00:06:35] Catch us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be here breaking it down one inclusive convo at a time. So Bruce, we all love performance management. I'm sure everybody looks forward to their discussions with their boss on a twice-a-year basis for this stuff. Why is a best-in-class performance management system so important for a company, especially now?

[00:07:06] You know, so it really starts with the very best companies in the world all have world-class performance management systems. And I think it's important because, I think it's super important because all of us as employees, you know, we want to know how we're doing in our jobs. We want to know where we stand, how can we improve our performance, and how can we get ahead.

[00:07:30] And without a best-in-class performance management system, you really have demotivated employees who are maybe questioning whether their hard work that they're putting in really matters. And you get employees feeling that maybe their manager doesn't care about them as an employee. And you, you know, obviously want to avoid getting negative feedback, you know, out of left field, out of nowhere.

[00:07:56] And so I feel like it's incredibly important to have a really highly effective performance management system. Why do you think, I mean, we're in 2026. The world has evolved significantly, especially in terms of technology. But for the most part, performance management systems have always been a once or twice a year issue where you start discussing goals usually in March or April because no one does it at the beginning or even before the performance year starts.

[00:08:26] And then the next time they talk about performance is either when someone's done something really badly or done really poorly on a project or the end of the next year. Why is it? Why have we fallen into that morass? Well, I think it's because many people in management roles are not comfortable or haven't been trained to provide feedback.

[00:08:53] And therefore, they really hesitate in having those conversations. They want to avoid conflict or they're concerned about, you know, saying the wrong thing. And we know the best performance management systems having a culture where there's continuous feedback being given, you know, real time when employees can really use it to help improve their performance. But that takes people who are trained and comfortable in providing.

[00:09:20] And it takes a culture that encourages that kind of continuous feedback. Don't we don't you think we waste a lot of time and money not having that training? Because that's usually what gets put in the cutting room floor when budgets get tight is training like that. But we're wasting so much time and money and effort. And as you mentioned before, disengaged employees by not having managers have that training. I completely agree. To me, it's incredibly important.

[00:09:45] It should be part of every manager training program that companies provide because performance providing real time developmental actionable feedback is so critical. And when it doesn't exist, you know, people are in a vacuum. They don't know how they're doing. And, you know, people kind of fill vacuums with negative information, feel like they're probably not doing well. And they vote with their feet.

[00:10:14] And that means that people go elsewhere to find greener pastures where management does care about them and their future. Bruce, you know, you and I have both probably suffered through relationships with managers where we don't know how they feel. And to your point, we do fill in the gap. We do fill in the vacuum. And we've been in HR for a very long time. We should know better. We've been through these wars before. You know, and HR is usually the red-headed stepchild.

[00:10:43] And so we usually don't do very well at HR stuff in HR. But don't you think leading by example, especially from an HR perspective, would make this seem like it would be better? I mean, if we actually walk the walk and talk the talk? I couldn't agree with you more. And it's true, you know, when you're in a human resources function and you feel like you're not following best-in-class human resources practices, it's how many times have we said the shoemaker, his kids do not have any shoes.

[00:11:12] You know, you can't be an outstanding HR professional if your own function is suffering from a lack of best-in-class practices. So we have, you know, as HR leaders, have always tried to lead the way and to ensure that, you know, our people were hearing from us on a regular basis continuously. If you are giving performance management once or twice a year, no matter how good that system is,

[00:11:42] no matter how effective you are at communicating those two times a year, you are not achieving the optimal performance environment. Right. Because several months could have gone by where the employee could have benefited from hearing some really helpful performance feedback, you know? And it doesn't necessarily need to be negative feedback. It could be positive feedback, too. Hey, the way you finished that last project was wonderful. Keep doing that. That's great. That's not a bad thing to be communicating to people.

[00:12:12] You know, it's incredibly helpful to provide your best people with feedback. We often penalize our best people by not giving them feedback, by not encouraging them to continue to leverage their strengths and to know that they're valued members of the organization. Because we hesitate to, you know, share any feedback with our best people because, oh, you know, how could they be any better? Well, all of us can be better no matter how strong a performer we are.

[00:12:40] So you've used the term several times of best in class. And I just wanted to kind of define what do we mean when we talk about best in class? You know, it's best in class means that you are, you know, have a fulsome program that exists all year. One, you've encouraged managers to provide continuous feedback real time.

[00:13:05] You provide examples with employees on great work that they've done or areas that they need to improve. You know, I've asked employees after a performance review, how did it go? And very often the people say, you know, I was confused. I wasn't sure what the message was. Typically, those are reviews in which the managers may have shared some feedback without any specific examples of what they mean.

[00:13:32] Whereas those managers who are very clear in providing examples of what they mean by great work or areas for improvement, employees tend to come away feeling like they really understood the message, understood what they need to do better. And so you need to have examples.

[00:13:54] Goal setting is, I think, a critical part of any best in class performance system because it really sets the stage. It provides a roadmap for success for employees. It helps them understand what we expect from them in very specific terms. And, you know, goals need to be smart, right? What is that referred to? They need to be specific, obviously. So we're clear on what we're asking for.

[00:14:22] They need to be measurable because if you have a goal that can't be measured, it's impossible to know whether they've made progress. They need to be attainable. If a goal is so unreachable, then what good is it? It needs to be relevant, obviously, to what the business objectives are of the unit. And they need to be time-based. So over a period of time, you can measure their progress.

[00:14:45] But I think, Bruce, one of the things that certainly trips managers up and it definitely trips employees up is what's the difference between goals and what's in my job description? Because I'm supposed to be doing this work based on what you told me my job was, especially at hire and maybe promotion. But that doesn't change much. What is a goal relative to your job description? Well, sure. So your job description is your roles and responsibilities on an everyday basis.

[00:15:12] But your goals are specific to a particular time period. What are the priorities? And we all have many things we have to do. But their goals make it clear what we're looking for people to get done over a period of time. And hopefully they're aligned with what the overall unit is trying to accomplish or the overall organization needs us to do. And so it's an incredibly helpful roadmap.

[00:15:42] Without it, you know, you're just doing your job. You don't know whether how your role is connected to the overall mission of the company. You don't know. You're not sure whether you're, you know, you're paddling in the direction that your manager needs you to paddle in. Right. And it also enables your manager to, you know, monitor your progress, which is an important part of performance management.

[00:16:07] So if I can give an analogy for those of us who like driving, it's the job description is how to drive a car. You know, it's the how do you turn it on, how do you open the door, that kind of stuff, seatbelt. But the goals are the GPS. It's not only telling you how to go, how fast to go, the things to look out for, the things that we're trying to accomplish. Right. That's absolutely right.

[00:16:32] And, you know, I find it fascinating that some companies just do not have goal setting as part of their performance management system. It's to your point, it's like getting in a car and going to a new place you've never been to and not putting on your GPS whatsoever and hoping that you get there, you know. And so many companies do that, to use your analogy. Well, thank you. It was one I just came up with.

[00:16:59] So I was wondering if you're going to be like, no, that's a terrible analogy, David. Where did you come up with that one from? But it kind of works. But the reason why I bring this up is because many managers, because you were mentioning before, they don't have training on this and they struggle. How do I create a goal that makes sense within the context of all the other noise that's going on?

[00:17:18] Is a goal just more noise and does it actually set us up for confusion relative to, you know, just get your job done and do it well or maybe even competencies that exist? You know, it starts with, you know, as let's say I'm a senior leader and I've got 10 people who are my direct reports. Right. It should start with what are the goals of my overall company over the next period of time? What are they trying to accomplish?

[00:17:47] And in my role as a senior leader, what am I being tasked to do by my supervisor and my management team? And the goals of the people working for me ought to be aligned with what the organization, the management team and me as a leader are looking to accomplish. How can each of them contribute to those priorities and those business objectives in their individual units?

[00:18:17] So you're talking about cascading, right? You're talking about cascading goals from the leadership level down. One of the questions I have on this is how much do you tell them about what has been communicated from on high? Do you communicate everything or do you have to find a happy medium of how do the overall goals transition or translate to you? Yeah.

[00:18:42] So, you know, talking about cascading goals, some of the PM systems these days enable you to do that. I think that's worthwhile. I think it's helpful for employees to understand what the people above them are being asked to do. Right. Clearly and specifically. And so it's worthwhile to do that.

[00:19:04] It helps to an employee lower in the organization understand better how their role can contribute to the mission or the objectives of the company to cascade those goals. So it's really context. Yeah. I think it makes good sense to do that. One thing that's really important that sometimes companies leave out, and I know you've experienced this, is having a self-assessment. Yes.

[00:19:34] I think it should be a part of every performance management system for lots of reasons. One, it signals to employees that their opinion, their view, their perspective of their own performance matters because they've been asked to complete an assessment on their performance. Right. But it also enables a manager to have a very clear understanding before you sit down and have that mid-year or year-end review.

[00:20:01] What does that my employee think about their performance? And it helps identify where there may be gaps so that you're best prepared to deal with those gaps. Yeah. But, Bruce, let's be honest here. This is the honesty hour. Let's talk about self-reviews. Because whenever I've done a self-review, the first thing a manager says to me, and not me, I'm just generalizing this, is, yeah, no. Yeah, no.

[00:20:28] So they look at it and they go, yeah, we're totally not in alignment here because I think something completely different. And I think a lot of it comes back to training. Are employees really mature about the conversation that they're having? And are they trained enough to be able to be self-critical to go into those conversations? And does the manager have the training to be able to be honest and not just bring recency bias and baloney into the conversation?

[00:20:57] To me, that's the real, you know, when we start talking about self-evaluations, that's where it gets into a really tense situation, especially if the manager hasn't read the self-evaluation going into there. All right. So you've highlighted some challenges that we have to overcome here.

[00:21:13] First of all, in a best case scenario, the gap should be very narrow if there's been continuous feedback and discussions throughout the year so that an employee who is off track in a particular area, if they are communicated to and with real examples and real support with how to do things better,

[00:21:41] then hopefully if those multiple conversations have occurred during the year, when you're asked to do a self-assessment, the response is not, oh, my goodness, you're so off base with your own self-evaluation. Hopefully there's been narrower gaps because of that continuous feedback that exists, you know. But continuous feedback is very difficult. I mean, managers have a lot more work to do than just managing people these days.

[00:22:10] You know, because of cuts and because of delayering, their job as being people managers is much less than being business managers or department managers without, you know, the real focus on people. And so having those conversations, especially on a timely basis, it gets to be a lot, doesn't it?

[00:22:29] You know, you can view it that way or I view it as I use the economic term, the multiplier effect that while it does take some extra time by taking the time out of your busy day to provide some feedback to an employee, either because they've done a great job or because they've done something very wrong and needs to be put up back on track that there's just a multiplier effect with the time spent to do that.

[00:23:03] Right. And you're getting all of your people. And you're getting all of your people paddling in the right direction, contributing to what you view as important, achieving those goals. So I think employee managers sometimes feel like I don't have the time without realizing, you know what, maybe you don't have the time because you have a lot of employees who aren't sure what they need to do and are paddling in lots of different directions. And you're not making any progress in that canoe, you know.

[00:23:32] So what you're basically saying is invest the time or you're going to have to spend a lot more time cleaning up a lot of messes that you wouldn't have otherwise to clean up. Completely agree. And one particular tip that I share with managers that I find very helpful. You know, when you're a manager, let's say you do have, you know, eight or nine or 10 direct reports and you're at the end of the year and you say, OK, what am I going to say in this performance review? And I got to remember the last 12 months, right?

[00:24:01] These 10 people and you start with a white piece of paper and nobody looks forward to that. No, that project, you know. However, in the beginning of the year, if you just remember to create a highlight file, it's very simple.

[00:24:18] You know, you and I are having a conversation January 15th and I'm complimenting you on a particular presentation with a client that you did because it was professional. It was clear you helped us get the business. And I have that conversation. I go back to my desk and I spend three minutes saying, spoke to David January 15th. He did a great job with XYZ client. Right.

[00:24:46] I did an excellent job on the presentation and I do that. 10, 12 times during year. Right. And I sit down instead of having a blank piece of paper for my 10 employees and I got to remember what happened over the last 365 days. I've got, you know, 10 or 12 highlights of the year, both strengths and developmental areas. I can start with that.

[00:25:09] I feel so much more comfortable doing a performance review with a head start with all of those milestones we've talked about during the year. It's a simple thing. And when people do it, people say, Bruce, I'm so glad you suggested that because my reviews were so much easier to do. But Bruce, recency bias shouldn't be the modus operandi of a performance evaluation. Yeah, let's just, the person has worked so hard for 12 months. Right.

[00:25:39] And one thing went wrong, you know, a week before the review. So let's really focus on that one thing that went wrong and ignore all of the great things that this employee did for 12 months or six months or whatever. Unless you're in a situation like Barings was in those swap, what was it, Singapore swap trades that were really bad and they kept doubling down on them. Was that it? No, we don't want to do that. We don't want to do that.

[00:26:07] Well, Bruce, let's get to the third question because this is one that I think a lot of people are surprised. We haven't brought this two-letter acronym up before. What does AI do to help in performance management today? Because obviously we're trying to find a lot of efficiencies and AI has been helping in a lot of ways. How does AI help here? Yeah. I want to mention one thing before we get to AI because I want to conclude on performance management systems.

[00:26:33] One thing is whatever you're trying to do when you're trying to get your organization to take performance management more seriously and create a best-in-class system, you've got to have senior leadership support for doing it. It can't be an HR initiative alone because pretty clearly people signal whether it's important or not when the top leader is either buying in or not.

[00:26:57] There was a great example at Citibank where our CEO at the time, Mike Corbett, really believed in the value of performance management. He really did. And what he did was he prepared a great deal for each one of his performance reviews. He sat down with people for an hour each and he had more than 10 people working for him. He didn't get interrupted even though he was an incredibly busy person, as you can imagine. Yep.

[00:27:23] And when people got through with our discussion on their strengths and what they could work on and how they could achieve their future career aspirations, they came away thinking two things. One, I've learned a lot about how I'm doing as a senior leader. And my supervisor obviously takes this very seriously and did such a great job.

[00:27:48] I, too, as a senior leader, need to provide as high a quality conversation as I just had with my boss, with my people. And then it cascades down the organization. And many of us felt that from the people that participated in a performance review that he led. Without that support, the best performance management system you could possibly have is not going to achieve its objectives if senior leaders don't really support it.

[00:28:18] So that's really important. How many times have we heard in other organizations, listen, I'm an executive. I don't have time for this. Or, listen, my team is all executives and they should know what's going on, so I don't need to do this with them. And that sets the culture right there because you're right. You know, it really does kind of cascade from that leadership level. Completely agree.

[00:28:40] So spending time to ensure the senior leadership doesn't just say they're supporting it, but they practice what they preach. They lead by example and they hopefully have the highest quality performance conversations themselves, which will work its way throughout the organization as a result of that. Well, it becomes less of an HR, to your point. It becomes less of an HR strategy and becomes more of a business strategy. No doubt.

[00:29:05] And that's performance management is a great business practice, not an HR initiative. Exactly. By no means. Artificial intelligence. Yeah. So, Bruce, let's go to the third question. I'll cut out the other thing. Bruce, let's go to the third question, which really I think a lot of people will be shocked that we haven't talked about it yet. And that's on artificial intelligence. What can AI do to help the performance management process in 2026 and beyond? Yeah, you know, it's fascinating.

[00:29:34] We know that artificial intelligence is impacting so many things that we do, impacting so many different industries in the economy. And performance management is certainly an area that is benefiting quite a bit from AI. Profound impact, quite frankly. And what it's doing is supporting the key characteristics that we've been talking about.

[00:30:01] It's helping to ensure that there is continuous feedback given by prompting managers to provide that feedback. It's collecting data throughout the year to help us understand how well our employees have been doing relative to their goals.

[00:30:19] And it provides, you know, automated systems which can be used to predict the future and tell you who is potentially a concern for attrition.

[00:30:36] And it can also, in a positive way, help you customize and develop a development plan by, you know, pulling from the training and resources that exist within your organization in a way that is much easier to do than from scratch. Yeah, I mean, it has all the understanding about all the things, all the assets at your disposal. It has skill ontologies. It has taxonomies.

[00:31:06] It has the descriptions. It has the past performance evaluations. It has a legal language library that will prevent people from making very bad mistakes in performance evaluation by using wrong words. And to your point, they also have training. So, you know, to your point as well, I mean, I actually, if you if you probably hook it up, you could also see all of the emails and all the evidence suggesting performance throughout the entire year.

[00:31:31] So if someone could really get a ton of benefit buying by enabling AI to kind of help facilitate the conversation. And the best companies, not just technology companies, but companies across industries are beginning to leverage AI. And of course, the, you know, the companies that offer performance management systems for all different size companies are leveraging AI tools as well.

[00:31:59] And so when you can get prompted by a system to share feedback, when you can have a first draft of a performance review or mid-year review done, if you can have a developmental plan put together to help an employee achieve their career aspirations,

[00:32:23] you're making good use of the technology to make your life as a manager easier and to do an even better job as a performance manager. Yeah, I think for so many conversations just like this, in the past, we've always talked about what tools you're providing your managers to make better use of this time as well as make better decisions in the conversations.

[00:32:43] And I think everything you've highlighted today leads to the fact that AI can really be that enabler that brings all of those things we discussed together in ways that managers on their own would have just struggled tremendously. I completely agree. And you just have to get comfortable with the tool. And, you know, the more you use it, the more we're all fascinated by how incredibly intelligent the AI tools can be.

[00:33:08] And they'll get smarter and smarter in many cases, knowing your style, your written style, your communication style. And, you know, if you take quality performance feedback to your employees and have it spent, spend a little bit less time doing it so that you can spend more of your time focused on, you know, other important tasks. Right. All the better.

[00:33:32] And I think there's another challenge here which we need to overcome, which is generational gaps in conversations. The AI probably can do a much better job communicating, knowing the generation, knowing the communication style of each of the people that work for you so that it's really setting you up to have the most appropriate conversation, but also most targeted conversation. Or am I kind of reading into that, Bruce? Is it going too far?

[00:33:59] No, I think that's a real possibility as it gets to know you. And I think you can also assess that self-evaluation as well, help you kind of a first draft at understanding what your employee is trying to say and how their performance compares to their goals that you set. And obviously we'll get updated every year when a new set of goals come in.

[00:34:25] And so, yeah, I think it's an incredibly profound, productive tool that can be used effectively in AI. Yeah. So when someone leaves this conversation, they're listening to it and they go, wow, Bruce is really insightful. What would be your kind of advice for the five steps for them to take away from this? Obviously, we talked about training.

[00:34:48] What are some other things that they can do after they leave this conversation to kind of help prepare them for a better future in performance management? Well, I would step back and try to assess how effective my current performance management process is within the organization.

[00:35:09] You know, if you don't have one, your next step is going to be different than if you have one that you think could be tweaked and improved or if you have one that you think has been totally ineffective. And then, you know, work towards, you know, a best in class performance management system is difficult to do if you're starting out with either no system or a dysfunctional system. It takes time.

[00:35:34] But I would start with a goal setting program, a self-assessment program, and then spending time with senior leadership, helping them understand why is it that the company will benefit greatly from having a better and more effective performance management system. And point to data where you think it would be helpful.

[00:35:56] For example, exit interviews where you learn from employees that they've left because they didn't think their manager cared about them or they weren't getting enough feedback or they weren't getting the support to achieve their career aspirations.

[00:36:10] When you point out that you're losing, you know, valuable, talented people that would benefit from, you know, a best in class performance management system, you kind of put in more concrete terms that the senior leader might better understand. I think those are all really great places to start.

[00:36:32] Of course, they can also look you up on the eCornell website and potentially take one of your classes and ask you those questions in an environment where they could learn a lot more, too. No doubt. There are some really good programs and courses available, and performance management is definitely one of them. And so I look forward to hearing from people who see this podcast and want to know more. Well, we're going to put in the show notes, if you can share them with me,

[00:36:59] I'll share the links to the eCornell website where they can look you up and hopefully take your courses. That would be great. I look forward to that. What a great conversation, David. I really enjoyed it. Well, thank you very much for being here on the HR Data Labs podcast. We do appreciate you. And also, thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe. Thank you for listening to the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:37:28] Don't forget to hit subscribe and share it with your network. You can also check out the recordings on Spotify or the HR channel, now on Roku and Fire TV. Thank you. Take care and stay safe.