S3: E6 The Next Edge at Work: Building Smarter, Stronger Teams

[00:00:01] Hello and welcome everybody to the Hope at Work Podcast. With me today is Blake Kaysen. And Blake is the founder of Pivot Wellness. So why don't we just start right there, Blake. Tell us a little bit about who Pivot Wellness is and what you do and how you ended up starting it as well.

[00:00:20] Yeah, yeah. I'll start there then. I ended up starting it because I wanted to be able to do my craft of working with people and developing people, continue my own human development. It gave me this space that I could keep learning and growing and it has evolved so much in the almost 10 years since I started my private practice part of it.

[00:00:46] And it was also, I think the other big part of it was that I wanted to be able to do this craft and keep learning and to do it in a way that I could control my schedule. I could control who I worked with, what I got to do.

[00:01:01] Because my personal life, I'm a professional rock climber, my personal life, my hobbies, you know, that my life could still be really, really, really genuinely cultivated and knowing that that would have such a big impact on the work that I could do with people and with teams.

[00:01:16] So that's, that's the big part of how it started and, and also speaks to what I do now is, what I have done is help partner with people to be at their best more of the time, whether it's one-on-one clients about in the last almost five years or so transition to specifically working with teams. How can these teams, how can these teams work at their best more of the time?

[00:01:40] How can, how can their collective intelligence be cultivated so that they're, they're adding more of their best so that their, that their experiences of their outcomes are better, but also that their wellbeing as a team is, uh, is highlighted, is, is afforded its dues that, that the wellness of the team is, is part of the business outcomes. Yeah. That's a bit about pivot. Yeah. Love it. Okay. Okay. I have to say you are the first professional rock climber.

[00:02:12] I'm proud, proud to be the first. Yeah. Yeah. It's a huge part of my life and a, and a, also a really big part of, of my career. Like I said, of like, this is important. It's a, it's a huge part of my life. And also, um, how I work with people that I learned, I've learned so much about, about being human, being at my best, anti-fragility.

[00:02:38] And I'm like, I'm going to be a little bit of a, I'm going to be a little bit of a, I'm going to be a

[00:03:06] like anti-fragility. You must be somewhat of a risk taker too. My assumption is if you're somebody that hangs off of rocks really high up in the air. Yeah, in some ways. And I've had, and I've had to really learn, um, what, um, how do I say I've had to really learn how to, how to take risks in ways that had a net positive for me. That weren't just risks for the sake of

[00:03:33] risk, but, um, how to, how to put my neck out in, in a very deliberate way, um, to, to learn, to grow, to challenge myself, to see what was out there. And, um, and, and I think that's something that I really bring to working with people is what's your next step of growth? What's your next edge? What's this team's next edge? And it's just the very next edge. It's not like I'm going to go

[00:04:04] from, you know, where I'm at as a rock climber to like, you know, like Alex Honnold, just, uh, free sold that building. Like, I'm not going to go to that. I'm not going to go like rock climb El Cap without ropes or something. That's not my next step. Um, but in the same way of that, that progressing as a professional athlete is not, not different than progressing in, in almost anything. Yeah. I like that.

[00:04:28] I like the next edge. That's a good way to put it. I also like how you mentioned just a moment ago that you want to help people be at their best. Yeah. So I'm very aligned with that goal. So I, I have focused the majority of my career on what I would call helping people reach their full potential. Um, so I really like how you put that. So maybe talk a little bit about your history and your

[00:04:54] background. For example, um, I'm actually going to Uganda this summer. So for the first trip to Africa, um, you spent some time in Africa with the world health organization. How did you end up there? Tell me about that experience and did it influence you when you returned to the States in terms of what you wanted to do next with your life? Yeah. So my time in Africa was, um,

[00:05:20] um, most of my early twenties, I was there going to school, um, volunteering. I started, I kind of started my career there in, um, in facilitation and kind of, um, people building. And what brought me to Africa really, to be honest, was I was like, I wanted to study abroad. I wanted to get out of the country and learn from the world. And I was like, I could go to Europe any time of life.

[00:05:47] Like I could go to Europe when I'm 60 and it'll be awesome. I'll have more money. And so where can I go as a, you know, early twenties student that is cheaper and is maybe someplace that I wouldn't be as, wouldn't be as conducive, you know, when I'm 50, 60, 70 or something like that. And I was like, let's go to Africa. And, um, and when I got there, I really threw myself into basically like sexual

[00:06:14] health education, the HIV AIDS pandemic testing education. And it, I took away from it probably two, two main things. One was the interdisciplinary kind of cross pollination approach. Brilliant. Like once you get diversity of thought around something, holy cow, it, it evolves in ways that you can't

[00:06:41] possibly imagine, which was, which was specifically what I was involved in, um, in South Africa and with world health organization, which was how do we get, how do we get lots of intelligence around this, around how we talk about it, what we do, what our, how our interventions are like, what's working, what's not working, um, and getting, getting some really good intelligence there. Um, the other thing that I really took from that was that the impact of coming into a situation like that, you know,

[00:07:08] Africa, mostly black Africans coming in and being the white person, the foreign white person and how very uncomfortable I felt being this other. And especially my work in West Africa, um, being, being the other, um, I felt so poignantly incorrect. And so a lot of the work that I was doing was like,

[00:07:33] well, how can the, the local organizations be more involved in this rather than me coming in and being like, I have the answers and this is what you need to do. And this is where you're deficient. But how can the, how can the folks that are on the ground that know more than me that I could ever imagine about, about this community and this issue, how can they be more involved in a, in some better

[00:08:00] outcomes. And so I left that realizing that I, that having the us and them or the, the being the other created a dynamic that where people weren't able to be at their best because it inherently puts people I found in, in sort of a victim stance. Well, I can't do it. I need you to do it. Or some people, they'll start to feel, um, like a persecutor. They're like, well, you're coming in and you're

[00:08:29] telling us what to do. Okay. And, and so that perspective, you know, being really young, I was like, well, how moving forward, how can I, what do I need to learn about collaborations that when I work with people that they are the source of change, they are the source of the information about, um, what needs to happen for this group. And that's something that I, I work so hard to do, especially

[00:08:56] with teams is you all tell me what's working, what's not working. You all tell me who's good at this or that you all tell me what, what ways you need to grow and then bringing in the leanest possible approaches that add just that next step for that team to then take it and run with it. Um, and that, that to me is the power of a facilitator as opposed to, um, just something,

[00:09:25] someone coming in and saying, this is what you guys need to do. This is how you do it. You need to change. I really like that. Okay. And again, what you're doing just to use your same vernacular that you used before is you're showing them once again, that next edge, but, but you're not coming in saying, I have all the answers. Right. You're coming in and you're listening and learning all

[00:09:50] that as well. Yeah. Oh yeah. Brand new environment like that. Yeah. Yeah. I really, and again, it can be hard work. Like we like to think we know what to do and that feels really good to be like, oh, I've got the answers for you. Um, and I was actually just talking with a, uh, client about some work that I wanted that we're starting to, to design for their team. And I had to realize like,

[00:10:18] oh, I'm going to have to really keep myself in check because I know the leader very, very well. And to, and to remember that there's so much more information that I'm going to get from the rest of the team. Um, and not just deferring to the leader as the person who, who has all the information that I need, but that the rest of the team is going to have so much high quality data, um, about what,

[00:10:47] what will work for this team, the absolute best. Um, so that, yeah, so that I'm coming in and to me, that's what facilitator means is I'm just facilitating this group to be, to, to move towards their excellence. Um, and I'm not, I'm not, you know, forcing it. I'm not doing anything that's not originating from, from this group themselves. Yeah. I like how you've used that

[00:11:14] term a couple of times now, the facilitator term. And I imagine the work that you do in working with individuals and organizations and teams that you coming in from the outside to facilitate a conversation can prove very helpful because you're not part of the internal dynamic of that group. You don't have any political affiliation, um, or anything like that. So let's talk about teams for a moment because I know that that's a big focus for you, that you talk a lot about work with

[00:11:43] teams and let's face it the way that work is done in the world today, the majority of it is done on teams. How many people truly work independently and individually? Very few, right? Even if your team isn't in the same city, we're working with people all over the planet now, aren't we having like this? So when you think about teams, I know you like to talk about things like team intelligence and

[00:12:09] I love to think, to kind of study and evaluate team dynamics. Yeah. So what, um, do you do in terms of working with teams to help them kind of create a high performing one? Yeah. Um, I, I will say that it, it depends on the team. Um, it's every, every team, what high performing, um, or what performing

[00:12:35] now looks like and what they want to get to looks like that that's kind of how I tailor, um, how I work with the team. Um, and one of the, a primary tool that I use, um, is curiosity. I, I think curiosity is a legitimate superpower. Um, and, uh, and so how I use it to develop teams. Um, I think of it like

[00:13:00] this. So, so we, we live in a world, my opinion, we live in a world where we are surrounded by untapped intelligence. It's just like, it's, um, it's there. And sometimes we're just not paying attention. We're not picking it up all this, um, high quality data, good information, making connections that might build into more possibility. It's around us all the time. Um, so what I,

[00:13:29] the work that I do with teams is I start to tune them into, to whatever is around them in their world that might be diversity of, of thought and how people approach things. Wow. I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't know you worked that way. I didn't know you thought about things that way. I didn't know that I thought about things that way. Um, I didn't know that, that when this happens,

[00:13:54] that happens for you or, or when this happens, uh, it impacts me like this. So I start to tune them into, wow, there's so much more going on in this world. Um, so there's a little bit of attention, a little bit of awareness cultivation. Um, wow, there's so much more rich data out there. Just might need to, um, improve the kind of muscle to notice it. And then from there, okay,

[00:14:21] they've got this high quality data. Um, then starting to, to play with, well, what could we do with this? What are the, what are the, what are some ways to combine this? What are some, um, uh, what's some creativity we might invite into the work that we do given this high quality data? Um, and that shift

[00:14:42] is often so, so, so folks will, um, start to accept each other's more diversity, start to embrace a little bit more of how this is maybe some new ways to do things, which can often settle, settle our brains. We're not so much in sort of like fight, flight, freeze. We're not so nervous about, um, social implications and that can leave a group with a lot more freedom, a lot more freedom to

[00:15:11] be creative, a lot more freedom to, to innovate and collaborate in new ways. So I think those are kind of some of the main, the main ways that I work with groups. Strengthening their awareness muscle a little bit, starting to bring in some, some curiosity and that curiosity, inviting some more freedom into how they might do their work a little bit better. Okay. Understood. So curiosity, love the

[00:15:37] concept. Um, and I think it, it's adjacent to a few other kind of pro-social concepts that I'm a big fan of. First of all, having a growth mindset, right? And just that willingness to say, I have a lot to learn. And obviously curiosity is very, um, tied to that. Another is, um, arguably one of the most

[00:16:01] important behavioral characteristics that you can possess. And that is humility. And if you're a humble person, then you recognize, again, I have a lot to learn. I don't know at all. And I think those are very tied to curiosity. And you referenced creativity multiple times. You used the word innovation. Yeah. Think about the positive things that come out of having curiosity as a superpower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:29] Including, and you talk about that humility. Uh, I think that humility can come, can, can partner really well with curiosity because it can lead to folks being like, I, I, I don't know. And who, and go look for who does know who is really good at this. And that's where bringing in this, um, highlighting,

[00:16:52] honoring, elevating diversity can, can, can feed into people knowing who's good at this. When we need to figure out what the problems are, who's really good at problems. Cause for, because for example, people can get, we can all get annoyed when, well, they only want to talk about problems. They only want to talk about what we want to have happen. What would we want, what we want, what we want.

[00:17:18] And that that's also a great, um, indicator that they're really good at that. Their, their attention to, to what the risks are is very well defined, very developed. So we need them when we want to, we want to assess risks. We go chat with them because they're going to really help elevate our awareness on risks. And when we're done with risk, we're like, thank you very much. We're going to move on. We're not going to only talk about risk. We're going to have this like a full range. Um,

[00:17:49] and, uh, and, and I, for me, what I've noticed is that a beginning sort of seed that I plant is we're all diverse. We all approach things in these exquisitely diverse ways. And that that is very, very important. Folks, we live in a crazy world and with each new headline, it is harder and harder to find the signal through the noise and understand if that annoying wannabe keyboard warrior in your office is actually a national security expert or just

[00:18:16] blowing smoke. Do you want to know the truth? Well, come join us on the At The Water's Edge podcast hosted by retired Green Beret turned geopolitical analyst, Scott Kelly, where we explore insights beyond the headlines to take a practitioner's view on national security and geopolitics. Join us at the At The Water's Edge podcast. So is curiosity then something that can be cultivated in people? Are, are we are, are we all born with

[00:18:41] the same amount of curiosity, Blake, or are some people more curious than others? And then how do you, how do you cultivate that curiosity both at the individual level, but also within teams? The systemic, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question. And something that, um, that I think can be done on the team level. So, so to your initial question around, uh, around

[00:19:09] curiosity, is it innate or, you know, do we, do we all have different levels? Um, I think we do know, we've both studied positive psychology. We do know that it is an inherent part of how our brain works. And it's something that, um, is very, very high when we're kids, when we're young. Um, and it, it can start to shift. We can start to lose access to that. And that's what I often think of things like attention and curiosity being muscles. I spent a lot of, a lot of my practice personally

[00:19:39] studying mindfulness and meditation, coaching around it, um, bringing that into, to work sites and that it's, it's absolutely a muscle that gets, uh, stronger or weaker over time. Um, as far as innate, uh, if, if there's a ceiling that some people might have to curiosity, I'm not too sure about that. And I can confirm that it is something that, that if you go looking for your own curiosity

[00:20:07] and you go looking for opportunities to be curious, you will find them like a lot of things in positive psychology, right? When we talk about say like gratitude, gratitude is very similar. If you go looking for things you're grateful for, you're going to be a lot more grateful in your life. Uh, and, and curiosity is, is really similar. So what I've found with teams is that, and man, this so, so mirrors what, what I found, uh, when I was focusing more on

[00:20:34] mindfulness and, and meditation with teams, um, is that you start slow and you start really simple. They're starting to add some skills to, to these people. They start to play with it in, in pretty easygoing, low stakes ways. Right. And then, and then they start to, after the skills are developed, typically what I do with the team is then they start to just consider, maybe start to outline. Well, how might we apply this to the work that we do?

[00:21:04] Where could we use this? And it's just not a thought experiment, right? Um, they're just considering, they're just considering low stakes. They're just like, bringing a little curiosity to how we might be more curious at work. Interesting. Cool. Low stakes. Um, and then starting to, to draw out like, and I think this comes into where I need to get a lot, I, I have to put myself in the growth mindset in the learner perspective, because I need that team to tell me how and where can this apply to what

[00:21:34] we do? They might be, you know, in interviews or in our workshops, there might be, I had a team that misogyny seemed to be present for some folks in it. Some folks were noticing it. Some folks were like, this isn't a problem, but there was something. Okay. We're just going to like, I'm going to set that up like in my, the back of my mind and then, um, starting to bring some curiosity to, to something like misogyny. What does that mean to you? Where, where have you experienced it? What,

[00:22:03] what, um, things like that. And then how, how might we apply that to actually how it exists in our world? Does that make sense? Like this sort of like, uh, sort of a gradient of some, some soft skills, some, or some, some lean skills introducing, how might we start to introduce those? What might be something that we specifically apply them to, and then let's specifically apply it.

[00:22:31] Um, so it's, uh, rather than jumping right in without any skills, we introduce the skills in a really low stakes way. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. And I am noticing how important active listening once again is in this whole process. Yes. Yeah. Just coming in with the answers. So you refer to curiosity as a muscle. Mm-hmm. Like again, um, and I know that you're very physically active,

[00:22:55] again, rock climbing and, um, um, I'm very wilderness friendly. So I assume you understand the connection between your body and your mind. Um, how does that play out when it comes to kind of some of the coaching and the work that you do in the world of, of the corporate, you know, space where we're so accustomed to sitting in a chair all day and yeah, we're losing our mind, but we don't

[00:23:20] necessarily make that connection to the body. Yeah. I, for me that has so much to do with the, so, you know, I think of teams as a system, you know, they're all interacting that nothing's in a, in a silo or in a vacuum. There's all these interactions and how might this system, um, um, function in really, really helpful ways for the system itself. And then within that system,

[00:23:46] there's each individual that has their own system of mind, body, nervous system, emotions. Um, and so to me, the mind body connection and what I bring in, you know, whether I'm working with a small nonprofit, a big corporate group is how can this team be in their best brain state more of the time? Because when, when we're in that, our best brain state, our nervous system's also going to be, um,

[00:24:14] taken care of through that. As opposed to if we're in fight, flight, freeze, we're afraid of, uh, that our, our safety is at risk. We don't know when some new affront to our security is going to happen. That individual is going to be so much less capable of working at their best, being at their best. They're going to be drained leaving home. And then they're going to be drained coming to work

[00:24:40] the next day. It's just that, that, um, there's no stop in the cycle of this, uh, you know, you think of like before work, during work, after work, like there's no beginning or end it's, it's just our lives. And, and so how can, how can this team, um, elevate its intelligence, elevate how it gets

[00:25:02] stuff done and also elevate the collective wellbeing of, of the, the system of individuals together. And, and one of the ways is, um, through being aware of brain states is one way I do it. Yeah. Okay. So I imagine then if you are in a heightened brain state, then you may not feel like you have, you hear the term psychological safety at work, but it sounds like Blake, you live on the edge a little

[00:25:30] bit and you're doing rock climbing. And I would think you'd want a heightened sense of safety of a mountain. And we see that sometimes in work too. We, where we've got high risk situations and we've got high pressure situations. So how do you deal with that in the corporate world? I'm going to shoot. How do you deal with it when you're hanging off? Cause again, we were going to find ourselves

[00:25:57] sometimes we're not going to have that psychological safety net, will we? Yeah. And I think one of the ways that I've found, and there's, there's lots of, lots of different ways. And again, it kind of depends on the context around people's safety needs. But one of the ways that I've, I'll go back to kind of the diversity I was talking about is we, the inferences.

[00:26:23] Oftentimes our, our inferences about what something, what's happening and what it means can lead us to that nervous system disruption. So if, if say we get feedback, this is something that, um, especially in my, my twenties, kind of the beginning of my career, I really struggled with feedback. So I would get that heightened physiological state around getting feedback. Cause I was like, Oh no, it means I'm, I've done something wrong. I'm not good at this.

[00:26:52] I thought I was doing so good. And, um, and so understanding our own diversity of, of like how I might need feedback, how I can advocate for that so that I can, I can really take, um, take responsibility for my, my nervous system, what I might need, including being like, I would like, I would really like feedback. Can you, can we please start with positives that would

[00:27:18] really help settle my system? And then when we go to critiques, can we, can we have conversations about what, what might've worked better for you rather than you just telling me, um, that you thought it was bad and wrong and, and you didn't like it. Can we have a conversation about it so that it's so that we can collaborate on how I might improve, what worked better for you? What are some different options? So, so diversity of how we do things and, and advocating

[00:27:43] for our own system, knowing about our system, advocating for it. And, um, and the, I don't know, speaking of inferences, the, the adult development stage where we appreciate that people have different inferences, how I do something might stimulate another person's nervous system in a way that really doesn't put them at their best and how, how we might have a conversation about

[00:28:11] that, about what kind of feedback would you like Marcus? What, what feedback works best for you? Um, and that's what I mean about the inferences. We infer that our way of doing things is the best way and even the right way sometimes and how, um, we can gather some more evidence. I think that's where the curious, the awareness and the curiosity comes in of being like, Oh, it might be different for Marcus. Let me, let me ask, um, and let me get some really good data for him for, and I'm using

[00:28:38] feedback as an example, but for how, how feedback might feel the best for him, be the most, most inspiring, most, most fun, most enriching experience for him. Um, and, and in that way support Marcus's nervous system for being at his best and, and, um, yeah, taking care of your, your brain state at work.

[00:29:04] Yeah. Feedback is a tough one. I mean, yeah, yeah. In, in any industry, it's not something that people generally enjoy. It's not people, somebody appreciates even giving, right? Because it's hard the giver and the getter. Um, but you referred to there as the, the opportunity for personalization and how it's delivered and even the context and the, and the delivery style. Yeah. We all know the

[00:29:32] golden rule, right? So do unto others as you'd have done unto you. And then there's the platinum rule, which is maybe get to know the people versus what you want, because like you might say, I love direct feedback. I say that to my wife all the time. I'm like, I want you to tell me, but the reality is I don't, I want it sugar coated. I know. I want you to go, well, yes, that's good. But there's some

[00:29:56] opportunity here to do this, but it was really good. The whole sandwich feedback, right? I admit, I appreciate that. Um, whereas other people are like, no, don't bounce around the issue. Give it to me straight. You're annoying me by doing the sandwich feedback. So understanding who you're talking to really important, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And, and how that, that really lends itself to,

[00:30:22] um, to a culture of working at your best, a culture of, you know, taking care of yourself, taking care of others, taking care of the system of your team, where, where we inquire what, when feedback is at its best for you, it's like, what? And you're like, it's direct and it's sugar coated. And you're like, okay, well, what, what, where is it sugar coated? How? Um, so that,

[00:30:44] so that then I can, I can, um, as your peer, as part of your system, I can, I can get what I need, which is maybe some action and some change. And you can also get what you need, which is support, development, reflection from your peers or whatever it is. Um, and we can both do that in ways that it just like, like really hits the spot for each other. That, that is magic. You know, like the,

[00:31:10] the phrase I use for that is, is, um, anti-fragility. So a team that's like, that's how can we learn from the oopsies? How can we, how can we improve from missing the mark as well as from hitting the mark, um, and take those things, um, into not just like, Ooh, recovering, but into brilliant. We're going to, we're going to try this differently next time. And then let's, let's evaluate it again and we'll

[00:31:36] try it again and we'll evaluate it again. Um, and this, the beauty of, of anti-fragility and that's something I do a fair bit of keynote speaking and that's, um, and anti-fragility isn't my phrase. It's a, um, there's a book written, um, have you heard of this book? Oh gosh, I'm embarrassed. I can't remember his name. He's an economist. He wrote a book called anti-fragility. His name escapes

[00:31:59] me at the moment. Um, but it's about, uh, how, how systems get better through, um, through the ups and the downs and from, but from learning about them. Think of like our immune system, our immune system. Yeah. It gets strong because we get sick. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure I've heard of that book, but I can't remember the economist's name either, but that does make sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So one, one last kind of bigger question. You mentioned that you do

[00:32:29] keynotes. Yeah. I know you do workshops with organizations and I know you have like these four pillars and maybe we've already covered some of them in our conversation for the audience. That's not familiar with those four pillars. What are they? Yeah. I would say, so the four pillars of when I'm working with teams is that awareness, the curiosity, um, and are bringing those into,

[00:32:57] um, how the system can work at its best and then the, the reevaluation. So that's the anti-fragility piece. So how can we make this, this structure anti-fragile based on what we're aware of getting clear? So that curiosity piece, um, towards working at our best in our brain states. And then this, um, evaluation and reevaluation. So I, I envision then that being kind of an,

[00:33:25] an infinity loop that never stops. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know adult development. We just like, we just do this over and over again forever and ever just like learning and growing. God, I wish it would stop. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I tell you what, Blake, anything we haven't explicitly talked about, anything you want to highlight that's top of mind that happened to

[00:33:50] you recently and experience at a conversation before we close out our time together. Something that I've been thinking a lot about and been chatting with folks, and I think you and I talked a little bit about when we, a couple of weeks ago when we chatted was around how, how this sort of team development, work development, leadership development is a part of

[00:34:16] just our human development. That as we, as we learn and grow in our profession with our team, that that is human development, that is adult development. And to me, that's something really, for one, it's very sacred and something very special that I get to participate in and have been able to

[00:34:39] participate in, in my career, but that, um, but that that's important, an important opportunity that workplaces have, corporations have leadership and learning development has, is that we get to, we get to support the humans developing in this world. And that as humans develop, as we learn and grow together, as we find new ways of, of being ourselves, we find, uh, new ways of working on

[00:35:07] teams together, of doing our, our work together, that, that, that, that is a net positive over time to the world. And I just think that's really cool. And something that I want to, I want to put out into the ether more, put out into, into, into biz, the business mindset, into learning and development, into leadership is that, um, that how we work with teams and how, how we develop our, um, at all

[00:35:35] levels, how we develop at work is, is, uh, keeping that in mind as a net positive to how it, how it benefits the world. Yeah, totally agree. And it comes back actually to where we started the conversation when you talked about how do we help people be at their best? Yeah. I talked about how it's important for me to help people reach their full potential. So human potential is really what we're after. And if we have that in the back of our heads, as we approach these things, I think we'll

[00:36:03] all be better served. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Like it was such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm so glad that you joined the hope at work podcast would love to have additional conversations with you in the future. Yeah. I'd love that. Thanks so much, Marcus. This is awesome. Thank you. Of course.