Reddit's Secret to Retain Talent: Perimenopause Wellness

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Felicia Shakiba and this is CPO PLAYBOOK, where we solve a business challenge in every episode.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: According to a Mayo Clinic study cited by the New York Times, menopause costs American

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: women an estimated $1.8 billion in lost working time each year.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Despite affecting around 1 billion women worldwide, many in the workplace may not even realize

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: they're experiencing perimenopause or menopause.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: This could be your wife, sister, colleague, or even you.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Without awareness, women can't ask for the support they need.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: The U.S. Census data reveals that over 15 million women aged 45 to 60 are in

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the workforce, and many may be unaware of the changes their bodies are going through.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Medical expenses for perimenopause and menopause are soaring to a staggering $26 billion

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: annually, nearly rivaling the combined costs of hypertension, diabetes, smoking, obesity,

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and unhealthy habits, which total just $10 billion more.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Today I'm joined by Marie Kerr, Head of Creative Global Business Brand at Reddit,

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: who will share her own personal story with us.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Marie, thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to talk about this.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Marie, can you start by explaining what perimenopause is and the typical timeline

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and symptoms that women might experience?

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I love your podcast voice.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's terrific.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me say...

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So let me start by saying I am not a doctor.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I am not a trained medical physician in any way, but I am a human being experiencing

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: perimenopause and I have a tendency to go all in on things I'm up to.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So I've done a lot of research.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So the word perimenopause literally means around menopause.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And menopause is specifically the one day that is 12 months from your last period.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So that could be anywhere.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe the National Institute of Aging said that it's somewhere between eight to

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: 10 years long.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It can be up to 14 years long.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it typically happens in your early 40s to 50s, but we are seeing people getting

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it younger and younger.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There is precocious perimenopause or people getting into this phase of their life in

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: their early 30s.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So it is a very interesting experience.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Would you like me to give an overall description of what's happening to the body?

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So what's happening typically in perimenopause is that your ovaries are producing a little

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: less estrogen and we need estrogen for everything.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Men have estrogen in their bodies.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that diminishing estrogen is causing a lot of hormonal upheaval.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a misbalance between estrogen and progesterone, and your hormones fluctuate

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: throughout the day causing a variety of symptoms.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And those symptoms are vasomotor, which most people associate like hot flashes, night

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: sweats.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: There can be urogenital ones.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: These are ones that people typically are a little shy to talk about like vaginal

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: dryness, urinary incontinence, just fibroids in the uterus.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: These are uncomfortable things, but they're real things that happen to people.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Sleep disturbances, I mentioned night sweats already, but you can also have insomnia.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a thing called cortisol awakening response that gets you up pretty early

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: with a flush of cortisol, which is the stress hormone.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are psychological ones.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Mood disturbances, anxiety and depression are frequent and early symptoms of perimenopause.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Brain fog can be something.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I've read about on forums, sorry, there's so many things.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Perimenopausal rage.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: What a fun, sexy time for us.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there are like the general physical symptoms.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So skin changes, like your complexion can change.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: There can be hair loss.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, estrogen is so helpful for all of these things with your soft tissues,

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: mucous membranes.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Hair loss is a rough one.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Osteoporosis, bone loss, palpitations, fatigue.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are a lot of symptoms.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't recall offhand, but I think it's 37 different symptoms associated with perimenopause.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's because your hormones are changing and that upheaval is disrupting your status quo

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's challenging for your body to adapt.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds like there's just a lot going on with women in this,

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: or some women in this age bracket.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And that could essentially affect a lot of things, both your personal life and your work life.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I don't want to be a scaremonger.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I've listed a lot of potential symptoms of perimenopause.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: About 80% of women, I understand, will experience some of these symptoms,

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly vasomotor and mood disorders.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, there is a lot going on.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I would like to say not everyone experiences these things.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I was reading very recently in, I believe, r slash menopause,

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: which is a subreddit that there are some people who have had no idea.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: They had an IUD, they had it up, and they were already post-menopausal.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing. No symptoms.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's a gamut. Everyone is different.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Your mileage may vary.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. Okay.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So how did you first become aware that you were going through perimenopause?

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And what were some of those initial challenges that you might have faced?

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very interesting because I don't think I reflected on it until you've asked this question.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say there was a point at which I started feeling that there was something wrong.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said to a colleague, and this was before I was at my current workplace,

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I said to a colleague, I think I'm having a nervous breakdown.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I just felt so wrong. Something was wrong.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt anxiety for the first time, and I had never experienced this before.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And my sleep was weird, and I couldn't figure out what was going on.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And the symptoms just cascaded from there.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I started getting sleep disturbances.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I started getting night sweats.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I started getting hot flashes.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was all very surprising.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, if you add things up when you list it out loud like I just did,

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that sounds like perimenopause.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But no one had ever talked to me about perimenopause before.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: No one had educated me about it.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't really know what was going on.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember just Googling for a while, what are these symptoms I'm having?

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And someone suggested perimenopause in one of the forums I read.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I went to a doctor, and unfortunately, as is the case sometimes,

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: she was rather dismissive.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: She said, you're too young.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You probably just need to lose some weight.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though by the age I was then, my mother had already completed menopause.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: She was post-menopausal.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So even with the background, even with the symptoms, she just dismissed it.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I, for a while, just thought, oh, I've developed anxiety and depression.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I went to psychiatric care for that and started taking medications.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So it took a while for me to actually come to this conclusion.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And luckily, I found like a physician who was like, oh, have you considered

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that as perimenopause?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And the treatments since then have been tremendous.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very happy that you found a doctor that was able to pinpoint what the

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: challenges were coming from.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank goodness for that doctor.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I want to go into a couple other things, which is one being once you

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: realized what this was, how did you approach having open conversations about

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: your perimenopause experience with your colleagues?

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: What were their reactions?

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so interesting.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Not everyone has this luxury, but I very much enjoy being myself at all

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: times.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I find it very challenging to pretend or obfuscate.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Subterfuge is really another matter to me.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't have an approach.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I simply continued to be myself and myself, especially at my current

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: workplace, is welcomed.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how familiar you are with Reddit's mission, which is to

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: bring community belonging and empowerment to everyone in the world.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was a workplace that very much welcomes one's authentic self.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was very active in our ERGs, like Ability, Reddit Asian Network,

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Women of Reddit.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And so what I did was continue to be myself, but now in perimenopause,

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: which is posting to our Slack channels, Women of Reddit, period yelling,

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: which is one of my favorite Slack channels where you just post.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I think every organization should have that Slack channel.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Perimenopause or not.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, period yelling is amazing.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just started posting there in Slack about what's going on with me.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I got support.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: People who are experiencing the same things, people from different sides

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: of the organization that I would never meet in my day to day were coming

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: like, me too, sister, this is happening.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was so great to just know that other people were experiencing

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it, hearing from them.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And also surprisingly, it was really validating to hear from people who

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: were not experiencing it, but were curious about it because it might

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: happen to them or someone they love.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was so helpful because I think there is this massive stigma

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: around being in this age range, even though it can happen quite young,

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that to experience perimenopause or menopause.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And it really helped diminish that perceived stigma because I was hearing

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: so many positive things from other people.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not positive, let's get real.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Some of it was terrible.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But people were responding in a positive way to knowing each other,

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: knowing our own experiences.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's fair to say that most people know at least one person

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: going through this, whether it be their mother, their wife,

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: their sister, their best friend.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like it's really that type of communication is not just for people

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: with perimenopause.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's maybe people who are like, how do I handle this with my colleague

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: or my best friend in the organization?

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what did that do for you when you got that feedback and that

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: community and that feeling of belonging, it sounds like?

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: What did that do for you?

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I am not alone.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: This will sound ironic.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I am not alone in feeling that perimenopause is an isolating experience.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like something has come over your body.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so physical you don't understand what's happening.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes I feel like a stranger to myself.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: What is happening?

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_00]: My body is betraying me.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you're feeling this isolated, having that response,

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: having those people share with you breaks down that isolation,

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: helps you feel connected.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're a remote company primarily.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: There are offices.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm connecting with people internationally, different apartments,

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: different locations.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're there when I'm there online sharing our experiences.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't say enough about how much it helps just to know someone

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: else is going through this with you.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It really does heighten that sense of belonging, what it sounds like.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And sense of belonging is really important, not just in your personal life,

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but at work.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't feel like you belong at work,

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a pretty good chance you're going to leave that organization

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: fairly soon.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can only imagine how much that community or that feeling of

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: community has really allowed you to thrive in your own space at work.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that we've discussed this on our previous call,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: but the impact economically to women is huge during paramenopause.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can imagine that some of it is this isolated feeling as though you

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00]: can't share with other people what you're going through and not being

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: accepted for what you're going through.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: 23% of people in paramenopause will leave the workforce.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have the number in front of me,

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's quite a lot of women.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that right now there's an estimated 47 million women in the

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: US alone who are menopausal or post-menopausal.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And forgive me for reading out a sat.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They're estimated by 2030,

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the world population of menopausal and post-menopausal women will be

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: 1.2 billion and 47 million people who have had uteruses at some point

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: will become part of that group every year.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a huge amount of people who are not connecting,

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: not feeling like you can be themselves at work,

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: feeling that they have to leave the workplace because of their symptoms.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a tragedy.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an astounding number.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so being at Reddit,

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to learn more about what type of support have you received

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to help manage your wellbeing and is the support that they're

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: providing working for you?

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you've mentioned the Slack channel and that sounds like I said,

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: every organization should have a period yelling channel at one point.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: What's working for your wellbeing?

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think a huge part is my boss.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I have a boss who is in my age range and when the symptoms got really

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: bad for me, I got very self-critical.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm used to performing at a certain level and I'm tired and I'm moody

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm hot all of a sudden and just didn't feel like I was doing well.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So I went to her and I'm like, I don't think I'm doing well.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm failing.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And what was helpful about that was getting outside your perspective.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't think I was failing.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: She thought I was doing a good job.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, maybe my hormones and what's going on with me,

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: my lack of sleep are impacting my judgment or my self-assessment.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was really helpful.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It was also helpful to have a person who is an authority figure share

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: with me that she again had very similar experiences where she was going

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: through some hormone challenges.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Doctor was dismissive.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: She insisted on treatment.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The treatment helped her tremendously and she said she would go on

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: record as an advocate for the treatment she received.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I hope everyone can have a supportive boss.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they won't necessarily have a boss that can relate to their

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: specific experiences.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I was very lucky there, but that was helpful.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I did reach out to my HR BP and just see what kind of services are

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: available to me.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And we have carrot and Lyra.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think a lot of companies have carrot,

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but everyone I know associates it with strictly like fertility.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But the menopausal transition is part of fertility and they have

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: services for paramedic pause and menopause had no idea until I

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: spoke to HR.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I haven't used care.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't used Lyra personally, but just being armed with this knowledge.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: People have reached out to me because I'm so open about it and I've been

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: able to help them get hooked up with carrot, get hooked up with Lyra,

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's so overwhelming.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You need support.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And thankfully we have services to support her.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think men's roles are in these situations?

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: How can they best support the women that they work with,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: with whom might be having the same experience?

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I certainly can't speak for men on behalf of them.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say that I hope that men's roles are similar to everyone's

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: role in this, which is be a good human,

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: be a supportive colleague and be open to the experiences of others.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I did have some tips in general.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: First, let me say that some of the most engaged people,

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: most supportive people when I've been open about paramedic

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: pause have been men, male colleagues.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I briefly, oh, go ahead.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: No, really?

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just my, I'm just posting.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a brief period where I considered having my own podcast

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: about paramedic pause in the workplace,

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but unfortunately it was rather taxing the stories that women shared

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: were not all as positive as mine.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was very disheartening to hear some of the struggles that

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: people had gone through, but I was posting about those openly on LinkedIn,

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: which I was told later felt like a really dicey thing to do.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But the most active engagement came from men.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember David from Supermoon reached out and he was like,

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I am so grateful you're going to do this.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: My wife is experiencing this and she works and no one is talking about it at all.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can consistently received really positive feedback from men.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And interestingly, a colleague told me she felt that women weren't

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: engaging with this content because they would be outing themselves

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the stigma.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: They might be letting people know how old they are,

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: letting them know that they might be experiencing something with their mood

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or physical health where men didn't necessarily run that risk.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But then could express their support on behalf of others.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, men are surprisingly supportive that I found.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fantastic.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that men do have a very important role in this type of situation.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said before, like those who have wives and colleagues and sisters,

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: men are also surrounding this type of experience

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and can be the ones to have that empathy and remind you to be good to yourself.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Even when you're not always going to be at the top of your performance 24-7.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: We're human and we have things happening to us and to our body

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and especially at this age.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: How have you coped with the emotional and psychological impacts

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: of paramanopause at work?

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's been very challenging, frankly.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say I struggled and I struggled a little less

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and I continue to struggle a little less every day.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think at first there's the denial because there is that stigma about age

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you're just like, this isn't happening to me.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm young.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I still want to believe that's not me.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just been hard.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I have therapy.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I have support.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I have friends.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I have family.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I have support at work.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: My physicians, now that I've gotten all my ducks in a row,

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: are incredibly supportive and responsive.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I have been open to discussing therapies that I've been interested in

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and for me, hormone therapy has been a game changer,

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: especially for the mood disorder stuff.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's an incredible difference for me.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: If I may be incredibly frank and possibly TMI about it,

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: one of the possible symptoms I mentioned was fibroids

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and I had surgery earlier this year and that surgery helped tremendously

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because the things in your uterus unfortunately can impact your hormones

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and the hormone fluctuations you experience daily impact your mood

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and so you're going through this roller coaster every day

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think just the anxiety of what the roller coaster is is so challenging.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That surgery, terrified of it?

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Primo.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Literally would do it again.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: My first surgery ever was terrified.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It was such an incredible help.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I'm not a doctor.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: No, but I think that there's going to be women that are,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: like I said, are experiencing the same thing

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and to know that they have that option.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Ask questions and be curious.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really important to mention.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: In your opinion, what's the biggest misconception

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: or lack of awareness around paramanopause

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that really needs to be addressed?

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Lack of awareness is the biggest lack of awareness.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: People simply don't know that this is a thing.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Women within my age range with whom I work are like,

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: what's paramanopause?

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Never heard of it.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Personally, until it happened to me,

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: my perception of menopause was one day my period will stop

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'll have hot flashes maybe.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was not a very robust picture

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: of what actually goes on.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Only when it happened to me did I understand

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the full picture of what could go on.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So just awareness in general seems to be lacking.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But I will say, not to be very negative,

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: there is a huge increase lately.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you've seen it.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: People openly talking about the menopausal transition.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: A fem tech got wicked money over the last several years

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: in startups.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of incredible startups with telehealth,

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: even IRL clinics that specialize

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in the menopausal transition.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I know the North American Menopause Society rebranded

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to be menopause.org.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: There are just so many things.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: An old research study that suggested

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that hormone therapy was highly associated

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: with breast cancer was shown recently to be overblown.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And that unfortunately a lot of women were denied

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: hormone therapy based on not the best positioning

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: of research because the incidence of breast cancer

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: as a result of hormone therapy was largely overblown.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of good things happening.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: People are talking about it.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Celebrities are talking about it.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And people are making big investments.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a big audience that you can market to.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So people are like VCs are and funding startups.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very happy to hear that the word is getting out there.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And to be quite honest, I didn't even know what that was

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: until you mentioned it to me.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm very thankful for you to share that.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And what do you think organizations should be doing

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to better support women experiencing paramedicine

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in the workplace?

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Education.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Clearly there's a lack of awareness.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So if there can be educational programs,

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: purely opt-in, not mandatory,

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: where they could just give people the option

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to learn about reproductive health in general.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe give them this episode.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just put it in one of the trainings

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and they have to click through.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But absolutely just education.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly we have all kinds of different options at work.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that we have an education session

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: about infertility treatments once,

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but I haven't seen anything about paramedicine quite yet.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would love to see that.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's weird just talking about it in our benefits training

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: or when you're talking about benefits

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: because I did know that we had carrot

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and I did know that we had a stipend for fertility

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and reproductive health.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't know that paramedicine was part of that.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't even occur to me until I spoke to an HRBP about it.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So if they could be more open.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So absolutely education.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that we've had educational sessions in the past at Reddit

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: where we learned about different infertility treatments,

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but wouldn't it be wonderful to have

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: like paramedicine sessions

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: where we can learn about paramedicine and what to expect?

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We have carrot benefit.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We have a stipend in fact for reproductive health.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't aware and I've been here almost six years

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that included the menopausal transition,

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: which is part of reproductive health.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So habituating the information,

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: making it available to people,

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: letting people know right off the bat when they're onboarded,

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: reminding them every time our benefits change

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: at the end of the year or renew.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That would be incredibly helpful

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: because honestly even if they had told me

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that there was support for paramenopause,

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I might not have thought about it

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: until it came time for me to need it,

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: at which point I wouldn't even know where to look.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So just keep putting that message out there

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that support is available.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many women in this workplace

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and so many people who have had uteruses

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that it's going to affect them at some point.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: For those who are men or those who are maybe not at that age yet,

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: for them to just be aware how they can be supportive

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: to their colleagues who might be going through this

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: is also important.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we just need to start that open discussion.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think about this every time I post,

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like someone will ask about it.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I posted I think last week,

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: this is so timely,

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: about in period yelling

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and how that paramenopause was kicking me in stuff

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was so hard.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And a younger colleague, they're like,

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, tell me more.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I in all caps told her more

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: for like several paragraphs

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: because it is period yelling and you must yell

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: but never put an exclamation mark.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all caps.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Anywho, then there's like responses to that.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe someone is shy about asking

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but someone is out there and asking

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and then other people see the information.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The more they see it,

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the more comfortable they get around it.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we'll all be better off

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: if we could just talk more openly and be ourselves.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there any other advice that you would give

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to women who may be going through paramenopause

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but are unsure of what's happening

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: or hesitant to speak up?

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll first say,

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're hesitant to speak up,

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that's okay.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever you're comfortable with is what's right for you.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You are going through an incredibly uncomfortable experience.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Make yourself comfortable.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Give yourself whatever comforts you can.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're not sure what's going on,

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: there are so many resources out there

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that you might not know of.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course I'm gonna plug subreddits.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like we have several subreddits that you could go to.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Here are just like three that were helpful to me.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: r slash menopause, who to thunk it.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: r slash 2x chromosomes.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a dicey one.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But r slash witches versus patriarchy

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: was surprisingly a very helpful one.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there are, you know,

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a wealth of information.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like the Mayo Clinic has some wonderful information.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: The North American Menopause Society,

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: which is all called menopause.org,

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: they post on Instagram.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: There are startups and apps

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that FemTech Explosion is out there.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Evernow, Perry, Midi, Genev, Winona.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many more than that.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So you can have telehealth.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You can meet with someone.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: When you go to the NAMS website,

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: NorthAmericanMenopauseSociety.org,

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you can find a certified NAMS practitioner.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Risa Kagan is a physician in San Francisco

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and has been working in gynecology,

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: obstetrics for her whole career.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: She told me that most physicians

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that are practicing today

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: probably spent maybe a half an hour to an hour

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: learning anything at all about menopause

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: during their general training.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And her feeling was that practitioners now

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: are about 10 years behind the actual science.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: That's incredible.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: She is really on like the front lines of it.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So if your physician is dismissive,

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you feel like you're not being heard,

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you can push back.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You can find help you need.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying see every doctor.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that's not feasible for everyone,

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: depending on their health care plans, et cetera.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But there are things like telehealth available to you

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: where it might be possible to find a practitioner

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: or a healthcare professional who's more educated about,

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: specifically, perimenopause.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything else that you want to share

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: before we close this combo?

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Just thank you so much for having me

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: because I'm so passionate about this topic.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I really want people to start feeling comfortable

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: with going through perimenopause.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, absolutely.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You may not feel comfortable physically, emotionally.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's rough, but like talking about it, cool.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about it

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: because feeling less isolated is amazing.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And we live in an increasingly isolating world.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Connect.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Talk to people.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so powerful.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It really boosts your mood.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It helps you cope in really hard times.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm rooting for you, people.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Good job.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Marie, thank you so much.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You are so brave.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for sharing something so personal to you.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that because you have shared,

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you have likely made so many more people in general,

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: not just women,

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but just people help understand what they can do

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: both personally and professionally at work.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm hoping that this reaches as many people as possible

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: so they learn and they're more aware of what's going on.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope so too.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yay.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's Marie Kerr,

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: head of creative global business brand at Reddit.