Episode 91 - Progress on Gender Pay Gaps - Part 2

[00:00:00] Hello everybody and welcome to Comp Uncoffee. I am your podcast custodian Ruth Thomas

[00:00:27] and I am Chief Evangelist here at Payscale. We are back discussing gender pay gaps this week.

[00:00:33] We are recording two episodes in March for a specific reason to talk about our gender pay

[00:00:39] gap report. March is Women's History Month, it is also the month when we celebrate International

[00:00:45] Women's Day on March the 8th and US equal pay day as this year been declared as the 12th of March.

[00:00:53] So we are taking this opportunity to break down the contents of our recently published

[00:00:57] gender pay gap report across two episodes. Last episode we talked about the overall outcomes

[00:01:04] from the gender pay gap research and in this episode we are going to be delving more into some

[00:01:10] of the other report insights and discuss some of the potential drivers of pay gaps.

[00:01:15] So to help me do that today I have two amazing guests when well thinking back Amy,

[00:01:21] our Amy Stewart, our Associate Director of Content. She is back with me, Amy do you want to say hello?

[00:01:26] Hi thanks everyone for having me back on Comp Uncoffee. I am the Associate Director of Content

[00:01:31] for Payscale and the author of the 2024 gender pay gap report so excited let's talk about that today

[00:01:37] and we have another guest who's a great join us today and that is Kelly Campana. Welcome,

[00:01:43] Kelly would you like to introduce yourself to the audience and tell them your story and how

[00:01:48] you're interested in this topic? Sure thanks for having me I am a leadership mindset coach

[00:01:55] and I work primarily with women leaders in Fortune 500 across three areas to optimize their mindset

[00:02:06] to learn emotional self-regulation so emotional intelligence and also energy allocation

[00:02:15] and combining those three for maximum impact in their careers. I want to clarify though when I say

[00:02:22] leadership I'm saying anyone who aspires to leadership or who realizes their potential to lead

[00:02:29] so very specifically I'm not looking at titles I'm not looking at I'm not differentiating where

[00:02:35] anyone sits in the order chart and we're going to talk about that today I think because

[00:02:39] I think there's a potential for all of us to impact on this issue.

[00:02:43] Great well I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on some of the areas of insight

[00:02:48] that we discovered while we were writing this report but Amy if the audience didn't listen to

[00:02:53] the last episode can we get them up to speed quick summary on our gender pay gap report what's

[00:02:58] all about what will the key headline outcomes? Yes very quick summary so Payscale gender pay gap

[00:03:04] report can be found on payscale.com under research and insights if you want to take a look at all

[00:03:10] of the findings either before during or after let's think to this podcast the major headline is

[00:03:14] that gender pay gap hasn't closed at all since last year in spite of pay transparency legislation

[00:03:21] which began rolling out in 2021 the uncontrolled pay gap is 83 cents to the dollar

[00:03:26] and the controlled pay gap is 99 cents which is the same as last year for those who are not familiar

[00:03:32] with those terms controlled uncontrolled uncontrolled is when we're looking at the median pay

[00:03:37] of women compared to men without accounting for job title for job level for other compensable factors

[00:03:43] that might impact pay the controlled pay gap which is what pay transparency legislation really

[00:03:48] looks to close from a tactical standpoint is when we're controlling for those job titles so people

[00:03:55] getting equal pay for equal or similar work as usual we break the data down in the different

[00:04:01] segments including this year remote work and job seeking behavior which is new and we find that

[00:04:06] gender pay gap persists in every way we slice the data although it is starting to close in some

[00:04:13] states for some occupations for some industries and for some minority groups when data are controlled

[00:04:20] for job title and other compensable factors we also look at the opportunity gap meaning how women

[00:04:26] move up the career ladder and our data finds they do so more slowly and then smaller percentages

[00:04:32] than men I think we'll take a look at that in particular in today's podcast review.

[00:04:37] Great thanks Amy. So Kelly you've had a chance to read the report now what's your thoughts kind of

[00:04:43] about the high level on the outcomes and the general lack of progress that we've seen year over

[00:04:48] year and that Amy was just talking about then. Yeah I'm underwhelmed by how underwhelming the

[00:04:56] results are as well as how I know Ruth you did a podcast preview on this late last year and already

[00:05:06] right we were anticipating this this would probably be what what happens and I find that

[00:05:11] underwhelming that we particularly as women let's say right as professional women we expect this

[00:05:19] despite legislation being passed despite companies saying that they're going to make strides in

[00:05:25] this area and I find there's so much in the women that I work with on a day-to-day basis. We have a

[00:05:30] collective resignation that this is just how it's going to be and I can summarize it as I think as

[00:05:37] women we believe that we have two options low pay or no pay and with that mindset primed in us

[00:05:45] I think that we tend to expect little and and we'll talk about this I think it also influences

[00:05:52] how little progress we are able to make on an individual level as well as on an organizational level.

[00:05:59] Yeah yeah now there's some good thoughts there um and the only way we're really going to

[00:06:04] break that down and really push this progress I think is what we try to do in this report is

[00:06:11] you know look at what are the key drivers and by cutting the data by age by job level by

[00:06:17] parents status we can potentially start to identify you know what's what's why is this happening

[00:06:24] why has progress stalled so Amy let's start with age what trends do we see when we break the data

[00:06:31] down by age yeah ages are really interesting one to look at what we find is that women start their

[00:06:37] careers earning less than men when data are uncontrolled and that pay gap only widens as women

[00:06:44] get older between the ages of 20 and 29 women earn 87 cents compared to the $1 that men earn which

[00:06:51] is one point higher than last year but that's not really a whole lot to cheer about um and the pay

[00:06:56] gap widens from in between the ages of 30 and 44 with women earning nearly 82 cents compared to

[00:07:02] every $1 that men earn when data are again uncontrolled at 45 and older the pay gap widens even

[00:07:10] further for this group so women's pay increases start to stall from that kind of mid-level career up

[00:07:17] through the larger career would are making only making 74 cents on the dollar that men are making

[00:07:22] that hasn't changed at all from last year so there's there's different outcomes for the controlled

[00:07:27] pay gap but it still shows the overall general trend of as women are aging that number gets wider

[00:07:34] as women get older one reason that we think this is happening is that women are not employed in jobs

[00:07:42] that pay as much as men overall and that includes the jobs they aspire to go into compared to what

[00:07:49] men aspire to go into so that's what the uncontrolled pay gap shows it shows the the kind of overall

[00:07:55] valuation of women including how they value themselves in society compared to men when it comes to

[00:08:01] the workforce and the value of their skills within the workforce um and we do also do a list of jobs

[00:08:08] where the data is controlled to show what this looks like for uh women and men doing the same jobs

[00:08:14] and we see wider pay gaps um even within specific occupations where women are making as little as

[00:08:20] 83 cents compared to what men make when doing the same job with all the same compensable

[00:08:26] confactors controlled so a lot of this has to do with historical gender norms and expectations for

[00:08:32] where women are best allocated in society and that goes back to the idea that women's uh destiny

[00:08:38] or fate or or value in society is to become mothers and when they do so they drop out of the workforce

[00:08:45] without their other options for working our service related or nurture related um having to do with

[00:08:52] the ideas we have about how how women are supposed to show up in society that that are historical

[00:08:58] and the idea behind measuring the pay gap is to measure how those historical ideas around women's

[00:09:04] contributions to the world are changing and as we can see from the numbers we still have some

[00:09:09] ways to go on that yeah and that has such a huge impact we see that that motherhood penalty

[00:09:15] really on the career of of women um so Kelly this is probably not news to you this is you know

[00:09:22] this is a part where you spend your time um tell us about where you see this come to life in the

[00:09:28] work that you do and and maybe helping people address issues such as the motherhood penalty

[00:09:34] yes i think it's important to note that the motherhood penalty i think as your data shows as well as

[00:09:41] what um sort of experientially i've seen applies to women who aren't mothers aren't yet mothers have

[00:09:48] no intention of becoming mothers it is as Amy you pointed out sort of this um right it's an overall

[00:09:56] gender bias and it's a it's a cultural view of things and when we think about a corporate culture

[00:10:02] there's very much um sort of institutionalized way of looking at women is they're going to come in

[00:10:10] and they'll probably work very hard and industriously until they're sort of mid late 20s

[00:10:16] and then we can expect that they'll sort of shift down and so i personally in my own fortune

[00:10:23] 200 career in a tech organization was faced with this issue when i went to go promote a young woman

[00:10:30] who was maybe six seven years into her career into a um first-time managerial role and i was told

[00:10:37] by the chief communications officer that i reported to who he very much admired her work but he said

[00:10:43] i just want you to think about whether that's the right promotion because you know she just got

[00:10:47] engaged and she probably will be out having a baby soon and i was was flabbergasted that he said that

[00:10:55] they actually let the words tumble out of his mouth as well as he revealed sort of this level of bias

[00:11:01] and i said you know what i that may or may not be the case but it doesn't matter i have a job for her

[00:11:05] to do today and i'm going to promote her and in fact i did and about three years later she did decide

[00:11:12] to have a child and she took maternity leave and i remember he sort of like you know winked at me

[00:11:17] and said well i told you this was coming and i said so what right but even those kinds of

[00:11:22] subtle things in the workplace that happen i think we need to just notice them also to say in

[00:11:28] addition to the motherhood penalty the assumed i'm going to say there's the assumption of motherhood

[00:11:34] that women also as we know tend to be the primary caregiver so in my case i was caregiver

[00:11:40] primarily for my mother um in my 30s through her end of life and then both of my in-laws um in

[00:11:46] my 40s that's another place where for some women they're they're caregiving on both ends and

[00:11:52] and i can't tell you how many times in my corporate career in my 30s as i was taking care of my mother

[00:11:58] i was told wow are you are you sure you really want to take family medical leave to do that or

[00:12:03] are you are you know kind of this assumption that i wouldn't be up to doing both jobs

[00:12:08] and when i finally did take family medical leave for specified time during the last few months

[00:12:14] of her end of life um someone had the audacity of telling me that i was committing career cancer

[00:12:20] which was particularly offensive because my mother at that time was dying of cancer

[00:12:25] and this was told to me by a woman who was several levels above me so these kinds of biases

[00:12:33] and impressions run very deep yes i think it's very much the workplace not being set up

[00:12:42] for people to be able to undertake caring responsibilities regardless of gender and

[00:12:48] regardless of what those caring responsibilities are the expectation that you will

[00:12:53] be there always available at a certain time and we have made you know that we have seen progress made

[00:12:58] on kind of where work can be done from forced by the great home working experiment of the pandemic

[00:13:05] but there's still a huge amount of work i think to be thought about when work can be done

[00:13:11] and does it always have to be done in this time slot of 9 to 5 pm and when you've got so much

[00:13:19] diversity in the workplace you know not everybody performs well between 9 and 5 pm and i know

[00:13:25] there are all sorts of scheduling disasters but i think there's just so much we need to think about

[00:13:29] in terms of allowing people the space to do their work that also allows them to bring their

[00:13:34] whole self to work and you know be able to balance caring responsibilities and other responsibilities

[00:13:39] they've got so and really important to to think about that as a solution and can i just offer

[00:13:45] there for a minute really both the organization does need to hold space for people to figure out

[00:13:51] what is the best way to contribute outside of very structured everybody needs to be at 10 o'clock

[00:13:57] at this particular meeting so i think it's important to remind employees at every level that

[00:14:05] they get to express to their employer what ways they best contribute some people are early

[00:14:12] risers some people get incredibly creative in the in the evening and so while we do have expectations

[00:14:20] of where people need to be collectively together in a collaborative sense we also need to speak up

[00:14:27] and say where where my best contribution will happen and those include things like my best

[00:14:33] contribution is not always on the zoom screen i listen better when i turn off the screen and i can

[00:14:39] write those kinds of things so two things the employer we would like them to make accommodations

[00:14:46] or at least be responsive to the needs of the employee but also the employee needs to set that

[00:14:52] expectation of how their contribution is best brought to to the foray now that's a great point

[00:14:57] about you know expectations from both sides and i think the more employees do that then the more

[00:15:02] the employer will be forced to respond now Amy we also break the data down by job level and so can

[00:15:11] you take us through that and how we see wider pay gaps as women ascend the corporate ladder

[00:15:18] yes and you can infer this from the age data right as women get older you see that pay gap

[00:15:23] widen and correspondingly as women move up the corporate ladder you also see that pay gap widen

[00:15:30] and in about in the same rates so what we see is that women move more slowly up the corporate

[00:15:36] ladder and in smaller percentages compared to men's we looked at both the population of men and

[00:15:42] women at the individual contributor up through the executive level when we found that men move up

[00:15:47] faster and in greater quantities than women do we also break this down by racial group and we see

[00:15:53] that women who do become managers directors and executives they make more or should they make less

[00:16:00] than men make at the same level and this is a particularly egregious for female executives who

[00:16:05] make only 72 cents when data are controlled compared to male executives and when data are

[00:16:12] sorry uncontrolled when data are controlled they make 94 cents compared to male executive so

[00:16:18] that's an interesting take and it it corroborates what what Kelly was saying just before about

[00:16:23] there's like this pushback to promote women into leadership positions just generally speaking

[00:16:29] um because of associations that people have whether consciously or unconsciously about how

[00:16:34] dedicated they will be to that work and then even when they do get those promotions we see that the

[00:16:40] equity is not the same the opportunities are not the same value as what men are are being given

[00:16:46] in terms of similar opportunities so Kelly this is obviously something that you're dealing with

[00:16:52] day to day in your work the challenges women face becoming leaders in regard to the opportunity gap

[00:16:57] the gender norms and developing executive presence so what are your thoughts on how you're seeing that

[00:17:06] you know within our data and then how do we solution this yeah um one of the things that came out

[00:17:13] in this report and um I sort of highlighted it and it was so it's such a stark thing that

[00:17:19] it's a myth that we need to debunk right away and that is that more education is required to advance

[00:17:28] in um a corporate setting and in fact your data shows that that's not the case that multiple

[00:17:34] degrees does not accelerate a woman's advancement and in fact I don't know if your data showed this

[00:17:40] or not but one of the things that I have looked at is that most of the men who are in those sort of

[00:17:46] the top two or three tiers in a corporate structure don't have any additional advanced

[00:17:51] degrees so um and here in the United States in particular um one of the things that we see a lot of

[00:17:58] is particularly black women but also just women of color in general tend to be the most highly

[00:18:04] educated multiple advanced degrees MBA special CHRO designations all sorts of sort of advanced

[00:18:15] education that they've undertaken themselves and in most cases paid for themselves under the

[00:18:19] auspices of this will be the bona fide that will now get me into that next level and it has not

[00:18:25] been the case and one of the things that I always tell women when they come to me and they say

[00:18:29] I should probably go get an advanced degree I say let's try some other things first including

[00:18:35] how you think about yourself as a leader instead of going and accumulating these sort of proxy things

[00:18:42] that we think will open a door for us that does not that actually if you think about the the

[00:18:48] the gender pay gap um which by the way I speak to as a gender paid deficit right even if tomorrow

[00:18:54] we were all equally paid there's this historical deficit that we have but now investing another 20

[00:19:02] $30,000 in going off and getting a degree across a number of years that does not ultimately translate

[00:19:10] into financial ROI we need to sort of dis abuse women of the notion that this is somehow going

[00:19:17] to change the trajectory for them and do you help women prepare for how they should behave in an

[00:19:25] organization you know in order to try and fight some of those biases and and you know successfully

[00:19:31] move up the career ladder which our data is showing you know it's not happening at the same speed

[00:19:37] as men yes I would say that the number one thing that we work on is that women and again your

[00:19:44] data bears it out the types of roles that women tend to gravitate to um women general tend to have a

[00:19:51] managerial mindset a very functionally task-based role specific orientation we're very good at like

[00:20:00] give me the job description i'll start taking off what all the things are um we're very good at being

[00:20:06] the sort of functioning in that role and in fact there i think there's a me-mount there about like

[00:20:12] moms are the managers of the world you know women are the men we know how to manage a multitude of

[00:20:17] things and in fact i think that's the exact thing that has sort of categorized us and labeled us

[00:20:23] in that space that keeps us from having a leadership mindset and a leadership mindset again as

[00:20:30] i said it's not a title is not a job function is not a place on the org chart it's actually how you

[00:20:37] think about focusing your talent and your contribution and so whether you have a functional managerial

[00:20:44] identity or a purposeful impact identity will change how you show up in the organization

[00:20:53] when we think i am my role i am my title i am my function then we don't take those opportunities

[00:20:59] to influence things like earnings in an organization we step back we say well that's not my area of

[00:21:07] expertise or that's not my place to say that are all waiting till i get a seat at the table and i

[00:21:12] have worked with several women just in the last year who have used their position exactly where

[00:21:18] they are to increase earnings for the women who are in their organization or for an overall

[00:21:25] role i have worked with an HR person in that regard we can speak about that in a bit

[00:21:31] great okay and now i think there's one last data point we wanted to cover Amy and that was the

[00:21:39] data on remote work what was the study showing there because that was a new insight that we

[00:21:45] bought out the share yeah i'll jump to that and then we can jump back to kelly's commentary on the

[00:21:51] aisle she's specifically helping HR leaders so there were there were two new things added to the

[00:21:55] report in 2024 one was on the gender pay gap by job seeking status and the other was by

[00:22:02] remote work status so what we're finding is that women who work from home some of the time or all

[00:22:08] the time have a wider paid gap when data are uncontrolled at 79 cents the dollar for for both of those

[00:22:15] women who work from home some of the time the pay gap closes to one dollar which might be an indicator

[00:22:22] that workplace flexibility and giving women the choice of where they can be helpful can be instrumental

[00:22:28] in helping to close those pay gaps as we have alluded to just you know previously in this conversation

[00:22:35] but those pay gaps also exist because of how much women are being paid for the job as they do

[00:22:39] generally and how much autonomy they have to choose where and how to do that work increases with more

[00:22:45] highly paid positions that are of more value to the organization the pay gap narrows for women who

[00:22:51] go into an office or who go into a job a job site to 89 cents but that might be because women are

[00:22:58] in lower paid jobs for those on site positions versus those work at home position so we can't draw like

[00:23:06] a concrete conclusion that work from home widens the pay gap but we can look at it as an

[00:23:13] influencer in how women are able to choose how they work and in how that impacts their their

[00:23:20] pay equity overall versus women who are going into an office and in both cases then make more

[00:23:26] yeah I thought it was really interesting insight it was probably a gut feel that I had about what

[00:23:31] was going on when I think you know when I look back to pre the pandemic who was working from home it

[00:23:38] was mainly women you know more often than not women that were working from home because they

[00:23:43] were doing that to balance care responsibilities and quite often they were prepared to take a pay cut

[00:23:48] or earn less or stay at a certain level in their pay progression as a trade off having that flexibility

[00:23:56] of working from home and now you know that whole world has opened up and so many more people can

[00:24:01] work from home and that's really kind of where we're seeing this kind of shift in the pay gaps

[00:24:08] between those you know not in the office and those who are either working hybrid or working from

[00:24:13] home. Now Kelly our listeners on this podcast they're comp or HR pros so based on kind of what we've

[00:24:21] talked about down some of the problems what can they do to specifically make change happen and

[00:24:27] address some of these issues. Yes I one of the things that I know about at least the HR

[00:24:35] professionals that I have worked with that I have coached with or who have brought me into their

[00:24:39] organizations to do trainings we know that that is one of those job groups that tends to be more

[00:24:47] occupied by women and overall one of the things that I have found is that individuals comfort

[00:24:57] level in talking about and speaking about money and finances has a direct correlation in their ability

[00:25:06] to feel comfortable either owning budget in an organization or managing the earnings of the people

[00:25:15] in their group and so our our money beliefs and our comfort in speaking about money will either

[00:25:24] influence our ability to shift this organizationally and individually or it will keep us sort of

[00:25:32] stagnating in this place. So that's the first thing because I would say getting comfortable and this

[00:25:37] is where that emotional intelligence piece that I talked about is like getting comfortable with our

[00:25:42] discomfort about money and figuring out why are we uncomfortable about that. I would say the

[00:25:47] pervasive feeling that I hear from women is a sense of shame they don't know what other people

[00:25:52] are earning and I think that the pay transparency legislation will help with that but even speaking

[00:25:57] feeling comfortable speaking with one another about that sort of demystifying that so that we're

[00:26:03] being good shares of information. The other thing is to think again outside of your specific role so

[00:26:11] even if you are an HR person or a comp person but if you think I don't actually have

[00:26:19] the leverage to go and raise this the thing I hear most often is well I don't want to

[00:26:24] last time we brought that up I got a lot of pushback or the C-suite's not interested in that

[00:26:29] and I just want to break that down and bring some neutrality around that pushback is a term we use

[00:26:35] to say they weren't immediately receptive they didn't immediately take our recommendation and

[00:26:41] run with it. And for us to tire out at the first no at the first stop sign is in fact part of the

[00:26:49] reason that we're here and we're going to have to I think there's this anticipatory discomfort which

[00:26:54] is I don't even want to have to go bring this up and because we're not talking about it throughout

[00:26:59] the year it's sort of once a year we bring the data and we in its time for conversation and so

[00:27:04] we sort of magnify the and create a lot of anxiety for ourselves about it. I want to say

[00:27:12] having worked in Fortune 500 with an in male dominated spaces particularly if women are in

[00:27:19] HR comp you need to understand that your ability to feel comfortable speaking about this

[00:27:28] is and taking a back and forth approach you're going to educate them your role beyond your actual

[00:27:34] functional role your role there is to assume a leadership position in influencing an organization

[00:27:40] and if it's isn't male dominated organization you're going to have to give them some insight into

[00:27:45] what this means in a very practical way how it is impacting the women in your in your organization.

[00:27:52] I will tell you that most my experience with both most of those individuals has been

[00:27:57] I have educated them and illuminated something for them that was a blind spot and they're so

[00:28:02] grateful that I as a woman at some place in their organization brought this to them right so I

[00:28:09] think just involving HR professionals too and have these conversations and have them more regularly

[00:28:14] and if you're not comfortable doing that that's your work that's your place of development.

[00:28:19] That's really valuable because something I hear a lot when we are interacting with audiences

[00:28:26] talking about pay transparency or affecting fair pay or measuring pay equity is we believe in

[00:28:34] this we the HR professionals the comp professionals believe in this but how do we persuade our executives

[00:28:41] to do this and I think what you're saying is just keep asking just keep telling just keep sharing

[00:28:49] the data like the data you know that we have in this amazing report and you know bringing that

[00:28:56] perspective so that eventually they can they can understand and they will listen because if you

[00:29:01] don't as you say if you're scared of the pushback then we it's another reason why we weren't

[00:29:06] solve some of these issues and Amy and I will be here this time next year and we will be saying

[00:29:11] that the pay gap is 83 cents on the dollar again which is not something we want to do Amy is it?

[00:29:17] Yeah so any final thoughts Amy or Kelly before we close out on this really kind of just thinking

[00:29:24] about some of these key issues that drive pay gaps any final thoughts for our listeners.

[00:29:29] I would love to do that first if you have my telly to think ending with your thoughts

[00:29:33] would be the most impactful but I love what you had to say on two points one was the kind of stepping

[00:29:39] into that leadership role is something that everyone can do regardless of their job title and I think

[00:29:45] that there is a compulsion and I wouldn't even say it just impacts women but there is a compulsion

[00:29:51] that people feel like this pressure to you know submit to whatever the hierarchy is within their

[00:29:58] organization and do the job that they're being asked to do and we see this criticism of HR as a

[00:30:03] function kind of generally in the in like you know for job seekers and employees who say things like

[00:30:11] HR is just there to protect the company and they don't really care about the equity and the

[00:30:16] inclusion and the diversity in the organization beyond what numbers get reported up the chain

[00:30:22] and I think that this kind of philosophical bent that you're taking here if you step into the role

[00:30:28] as a leader if you're trying to impact change and not just do tasks you after that is where that

[00:30:34] change actually happens so I really like hearing that I think that that anecdote is especially powerful

[00:30:40] and if we can collect more stories from people not just women but from people about how they

[00:30:46] how they did that I think that those case studies would be really interesting for both an equity

[00:30:51] perspective but also from a diversity inclusion perspective yeah and I think that what I heard behind

[00:30:57] what you said is let's humanize it right I think when we think about it as a project oh there's a

[00:31:03] pay gap now we sort of wring down into that sort of tactical managerial task based thing I think

[00:31:10] it's important for us to not just have the data but humanize it for the stakeholders who will be

[00:31:15] those decision makers and explain to them what this actually means on an individual case by case

[00:31:21] basis and that might mean having a few women who in the organization who talk about all the different

[00:31:27] things that they're sort of you know hacking to juggle with this amount of you know pay um I

[00:31:33] want to share with you an example that hopefully will encourage people no matter where they sit on

[00:31:39] the orch chart a few years ago I had a young woman who was just taking her first managerial step

[00:31:47] in an HR organization in a Fortune Wells organization in Silicon Valley and she came to me because

[00:31:54] she said I want to be influencing on a larger level no matter where I am in my career and I want

[00:32:02] to grow my leadership she had these aspirations of ascending and through a series of circumstances

[00:32:08] right around the time she joined her CHRO went out on maternity leave her direct manager had moved

[00:32:16] to another organization and they were trying to fill a VP so now think about this she's brand new

[00:32:21] in the role and she is the highest ranking HR person in her function and so now she's sitting

[00:32:29] in for the CHRO in the meetings with the executive lead team and in that meeting she heard them say

[00:32:36] that at the end of year there was going to be a budget surplus and so then the next week she had

[00:32:42] a she had a standing meeting with the CEO of that business unit and the next week when she went

[00:32:47] to go sit down with him because she was in the room hearing this she came to him and said you know

[00:32:52] what are you going to do with that surplus and he said oh I don't know we've got to figure out

[00:32:55] we got to spend it or we won't get the money next year and she said I have an idea for you

[00:33:00] and she had always been looking at data and she said we have about 330 people in our organization

[00:33:06] who are severely underpaid they're under water and I've run the numbers and if we can just

[00:33:13] take some of that surplus you have and adjust their pay will bring them all up into equity

[00:33:18] and his immediate gut response was oh I don't want to do that and she had this moment where she could

[00:33:24] have said that was pushed back and she left and she said why don't you want to do that

[00:33:29] she got real curious with him and started to develop this great rapport with him where she said

[00:33:35] well do you understand that she said do you understand most of these are women and then the ones that

[00:33:40] aren't women are actually immigrants people who have come to this country to work and she started

[00:33:44] humanizing it for him and talking him through it and he said yeah yeah well you know okay thanks

[00:33:49] for that and they went on their agenda items and she said about 15 minutes later as they were wrapping

[00:33:54] off he said you know what I like your tenacity and I'm glad you raised this go ahead and let's

[00:33:58] start the process to do this that's fantastic that's a great example of that pushback that we were

[00:34:04] just talking about so thank you Kelly well I kind of feel we could probably sit here for another

[00:34:10] talking about all the different insights in this report but I'd really like to say very much

[00:34:17] Kelly thank you for joining Amy and I today to uncover some of what we are finding in our gender

[00:34:24] pay gap report we will include a link to how our listeners can find you in the episode summary

[00:34:31] and so obviously listeners if you want to connect with Kelly you'll be able to find her but also

[00:34:36] on LinkedIn Kelly I'm assuming yes act of online and thank you pay gap thank you for pay scale

[00:34:43] for continuing to raise these issues particularly around pay gap I know that for you all this isn't

[00:34:49] just a seasonal of thematic thing it's something you're looking at all the time and we appreciate

[00:34:53] your your vigilance on this issue thank you very much well that's what we think that's what

[00:34:58] Kelly Amy and I think what do you think if you've got a view on this topic or you've got a topic

[00:35:04] that you would like us to discuss then email us at coffee at payscale.com and you can now find our

[00:35:10] podcast on payscal.com's website as well under events so we have a new webinar page sorry podcast

[00:35:18] page there well thank you all for joining us today thank you Amy again for joining me to share

[00:35:24] the results from the report and we look forward to hearing you on our next podcast thank you