Episode 90 - Progress on Gender Pay Gaps - Part 1

[00:00:00] Hello everybody and welcome to Comp and Coffee Payscale's podcast. My name is Ruth Thomas

[00:00:27] and I'm Chief Evangelist here at Payscale and current custodian of our podcast. Well, today we are going to be uncovering data from our latest research report

[00:00:38] the Gender Paygap Report for 2024. We've been doing this report for over 10 years and it's really evolved into a deep dive into the various issues that drive pay gaps but more on that to come.

[00:00:51] I'd like to first introduce two guests who are going to be joining me today to have a look at the insights that we have from this report. So first of all let me welcome Amy Stewart, who's our associate director at Content Marketing

[00:01:04] which you'd like to say hello to me. Yes, thank you so much Ruth. For those of you who haven't heard me on the podcast before I've been on a few times my name is Amy Stewart and I manage the Research Based Content for Payscale

[00:01:15] I'm also the author of this year's Gender Paygap Report so I'm very glad to have you on. You know all the facts and figures that you'll be showing with the audience today.

[00:01:24] And we also have Michelle Jumma joining us. I've done various work with Michelle before, with both based in the UK and both passionate about gender pay gaps.

[00:01:34] Michelle, would you like to introduce yourself and tell the audience about what you do?

[00:01:38] Yes so my name is Michelle Jumma and I'm a pay gap strategist. So in simple terms that means I help organisations that make sense of the data that's coming out from their pay gap reports and I help them to create strategies and set targets and goals that make sense for their organisation to help them address not only the pay gap figure itself but also the root causes behind why they have pay gap in the first place.

[00:02:08] And cute well I'm really looking forward to hearing your views on what you saw in our report today as we travel through some of those data points.

[00:02:18] So we released the Gender Paygap Report at this time of year because it coincides with US Equal Payday which this year is on March 12th.

[00:02:26] It's also International Women's Day on March 8th and the whole month of March is Women's History Months.

[00:02:35] So really at pay scale it's our way to activate conversation and raise awareness and drive adoption of fair pay practices because that's part of the mission of why we're here at pay scale.

[00:02:46] And the report reveals how much women are paid compared to men and it's based on data from our employee reported data set.

[00:02:54] The Amy, you've been working on this report can you tell me about the report about the methodology of the report and what were the head down outcomes we saw this year?

[00:03:03] Yes, thank you so much.

[00:03:05] So as you mentioned, pay scales gender pay gap report is an annual report that pay scale does every year that we release around equal payday for everyone to help build awareness around the pay gaps between men and women.

[00:03:19] This year we analyzed data from over 627,000 people who took pay scales online salary survey which as you mentioned in forms are employee reported data offering that we provide

[00:03:30] to employers through our software products.

[00:03:34] Because the report is based on online salary survey that salaried individuals are more likely to take the analysis is stronger for employees that earn a salary versus hourly wage workers and we do control for education for college degree, especially when we do the race gap analysis to make sure that those numbers are reflective of a cohort that we feel confident in the

[00:04:00] way it's around our methodology also allows us to look at both the uncontrolled pay gap and the control big gap which most gender pay gap analyses are unable to do because they don't get that granular with the data that they are looking at but we ask a lot of questions in our survey and are able to control for a variety of compensable factors, one of which is job title.

[00:04:22] The response is going back two years so for this year it is from January 2022 through January 2024.

[00:04:29] This time frame captures the change in the labor market from the great resignation as well as introduction of pay transparency legislation in select states within the United States.

[00:04:38] The headline unfortunately is that despite wage increases in during the great resignation and despite pay transparency legislation, the gender pay gap has not closed at all between this year's report and last year's report.

[00:04:51] The uncontrolled pay gap is 83 cents on the dollar when uncontrolled and 99 cents when controlled it is never closed in all of the years that we've been doing this analysis which suggests systemic reasons for the pay gap continuing which I think we'll talk a little bit about as we can kind of further into the tip.

[00:05:08] Thank you Amy. So you confirmed based on our data neither the uncontrolled or the control pay gap is closed this year which for me wasn't a surprise it was a prediction that I made in our end of year reports that we published as we pivoted into 2024.

[00:05:25] I think from my own personal perspective, you know looking at where the macro economic environment and also observing how organizations were responding to that.

[00:05:35] I couldn't see anything significant that was going to be driving increased action or like labor economy factors that might help to close the pay gaps.

[00:05:48] Michelle let's start with the uncontrolled pay gap though I know that's now it you specialize in why do you think that has not closed this year.

[00:05:58] Yeah so I mean my initial thoughts are that you know when we're looking at pay gap data there's so much nuance that goes on behind why you have to figure in the first place and I and I do suspect that even though we've had pay gap reported for quite some time that there are people that are still that still don't add up.

[00:06:17] Still that still don't actually understand that and that there is this expectation that good looks like your pay gap falling every year and there's an expectation that that is just the way that it kind of should be.

[00:06:29] But we both know that that's not true and obviously this report is just one report of many that will that will definitely reflect that.

[00:06:37] And you know my belief as to why that is is because when we're talking about trying to close the pay gap trying to drop those percentage points and basically close the gap in earnings between men and women.

[00:06:50] You know we're talking about looking at systemic change but we're also looking at kind of cultural change as well because you have the systemic peace which is how the organization is run and how things are done.

[00:07:02] But then you're looking at the cultural peace in terms of your people's biases and behaviors and their attitudes and what you know shapes the decisions that they make that can impact on the pay gap as well.

[00:07:15] And so I think for you know a number of organizations there's still this there's still need to be looking at that piece because it's not just about we've changed the policy here we've changed the policy there is also about how do we ensure that our people are.

[00:07:31] Up to speed on how they can make better decisions so yes we've got a great policy but say for example as a best working policy but how do we ensure that there's consistency across the organization in terms of how decisions are made so that it doesn't exacerbate existing pay gaps or create.

[00:07:48] Create new pay gaps, I think you know that that is part of the reason why organizations do see that and kind of nothing's happening you know they're not making any progress not because they're not making any progress.

[00:08:00] Not because they're not doing the work because there's still work to be done around that cultural peace to support any of the changes that you might be making systemically as well.

[00:08:10] Yeah and I think we see that in the UK agenda pay gap data so obviously in the UK we've had gender pay gap reporting in place for six years now.

[00:08:23] And when you look at the that's a national data set for all companies over certain size that have to report their uncontrolled pay gap and when you over the period of time that that reporting has been required we haven't really seen the pay gaps close and that doesn't mean that.

[00:08:40] Organizations haven't been doing anything as you say Michelle because we know there are lots of many leading companies and many companies that are committed to addressing those gaps but it's just something that's taking a longer period of time.

[00:08:54] Yeah I think also that I think that there probably needs to be more conversation about about that as an outcome and an expectation I think when pay gap first pay gap reported stuff first started.

[00:09:08] It was kind of solders this is a thing that now we have publicity we're going to see changes happen really fast and you and I know that that hasn't happened and so the kind of dissolution sets in so I do think that you know in having this conversation we have to be prepared for the fact that you know we're trying we're trying to do generational work.

[00:09:28] So this is actually going to take longer than people's you know current expectations and that's fine as long as we're making those incremental steps towards what it is an injury to do.

[00:09:39] Yeah exactly so Amy we we do break the data down in several ways in this report and one cut we do is by industry so can you talk us through which industries have the biggest pay gaps and who had the lowest pay gaps.

[00:09:56] Yes I can so we take a look at both industry and occupation if you're interested in occupation you can look at the report but by industry the uncontrolled gender pay gap is widest in finance and insurance and for agencies and consultancies so finance and insurance 77 cents on the dollar and for agencies and consultancies it's 84 cents on the dollar.

[00:10:20] Both of which have a higher percentage of women than men surprisingly 53% to 59% respectively but where the women are not occupying the highest paying jobs within those industries so they're we're not looking at the at the job titles two job titles within that again uncontrolled gap looks at the median pay for men versus women holistically within that industry.

[00:10:44] We do believe that this is fed by gender stereotypes about what men and women are good at and men you know stereotypically and historically are good at finance and good at problem solving and women are good at nurturing and good at service related work and so you see that reflected in the overall pay for men and women based on those historical gender limitations that are placed upon people holistically within society.

[00:11:11] When controlling for compensable factors so looking at jobs to jobs for men and women in what they're doing we do see the gender pay gap close for select industries we see it close for technology for engineering in science within the education industry and for health care these are all industries that require or have like higher skilled professions which may be more regulated or have more attention and focus on them from the public sector

[00:11:38] and when we may have seen pay equity practices take a deeper route in recent years because of that attention so it's exciting to see but it's just a handful of industries within a lot of other industries and it's just for the controlled pay gap.

[00:11:52] Yes I guess it's a similar trend that we see in other data sets where we see finance and insurance often construction industries being those with the widest pay gaps from an uncontrolled perspective and then other sectors like health and social work and accommodation and retail for example having much much smaller pay gaps.

[00:12:16] What's your take on why these industries have such large pay gaps.

[00:12:21] Yes I think the historical context has a lot to do with it which is what Amy alluded to and when you are dealing with organisations that have all sectors I should say that have that kind of entrenched view in terms of what women are good at and what men are good at and funneling those people into those roles.

[00:12:43] I think it's for those sectors there's also not that sense of urgency to change because as we know as you know societies changing all the time in terms of how we think about people and what we think people are good at and not having individuals in put into specific boxes.

[00:13:00] But I think you know the sectors that you mentioned I suspect that there has been less of that urgency to change in much of that well this is how we've always done things and it works for us so we're just going to kind of carry on.

[00:13:12] Whereas the other sectors that you talked about that tend to have lower gender pay gaps probably don't have that kind of same attitude of this is how we do business and so we're just going to carry on doing this where do you think

[00:13:25] you know the kind of there's a sectoral attitude towards their employees and who they think whose face they think fits within specific roles has has a big bearing.

[00:13:39] I mean an interesting one is around education because on first thoughts he might think oh okay that's a female dominated sector so why do we see such high pay gaps but then when you start to think about it you know education is not just a big role.

[00:13:54] Education is not just primary school teachers which predominantly women we're talking about academia as well and so when you look at the issues that they have in terms of the gender split then we start to see some really kind of start correlations and I remember reading an article and it was about the impact of COVID

[00:14:12] and they were starting to notice the real gender split in terms of the numbers of female academics who are able to you know write papers and do research etc compared to their male counterparts and the difference was really stark now that was during COVID because so many women found themselves you know with additional responsibilities you know homeschooling looking after the families in the pandemic etc.

[00:14:37] And men were kind of like in a room in the house able to carry on you know work as usual and so you know so that's an example of the kind of types of behaviors that we see in some of the sectors in terms of okay what is normal for a woman who's on a career trajectory and the man who's on a career trajectory.

[00:14:57] So I do think there's you know a lot of historical things and a lot of either resistance to societal change or not thinking or feeling that actually we need to be much more open and going with what people in society.

[00:15:14] Right, thank you.

[00:15:16] Now we've been talking about who pay gap say me we've been talking about the uncontrolled and the controlled pay gap I might get you in a minute to do an explanation of that case we're confusing our listeners as we progress through that podcast and I'd like to also explain when we talk about the control pay gap what are we controlling for what does that mean.

[00:15:39] Yes, so I'll go ahead and give the explanation of uncontrolled and controlled just if anyone listening is not familiar with that I was this audience is going to be more acclimated to that naman culture than you know non HR non non-com practices audience but just in case for anyone listening the uncontrolled gap as when we're looking at the median pay between men and women without looking at any compensable factors just what are the jobs that women are doing versus the jobs of men that are doing it and what did those pay.

[00:16:09] At the median and then the control gap is controlling for compensable factors and that might look different within an individual organizations pay equity analysis than it does for our study or for another organization's analysis because not all organizations provide compensable factors for the same things so that that can get a little bit nuance but in pay scale study and we do do some like pretty customized.

[00:16:36] Controlled like by job title and types of skills and things that people have but the common ones across all of all of the jobs that we look at are.

[00:16:44] Controlled by total cash compensation the job title the hours worked location the years of experience race age education so all of those are going to be controlled when we're looking at the control pay gap analysis.

[00:17:00] In this year study we also look at some interesting correlations with things like parent status remote work status and job seeking status and those insights are interesting and they're on the report were also going to dig into them in a future podcast episode with another guest speaker so if you're interested in looking at that make sure you tune in for our series on the particular report.

[00:17:23] Thank you Amy so I know you're an expert on control pay gaps Michelle and but what do you think about the control pay gap and that's obviously what we help.

[00:17:33] Organizations with it here at pay scale you know our role is about ensuring.

[00:17:38] Organizations can build fair pay practices and they can put the structures in place to ensure fair pay but you know even with that it seems that we still have pay gaps and so you know our report saying 99 cents on the dollar what should take on that.

[00:17:54] Yeah it's it's an interesting one and you know the first thing that kind of came to mind was you know is there an issue around kind of ten year and experience that people have so even if you know two people have you know.

[00:18:08] The same education etc I do wonder if in deciding you know who gets paid what and how much is and you're always still kind of battling with ideas of this is appropriate for this person because of and then all the kinds of.

[00:18:22] Reasons come out in terms of age or if they've got you know very specific experience or they've been to a specific university or you know all of those things that you kind of think is is that really the reason why so I mean they they are the the.

[00:18:38] The things that came to mind for me in terms of why.

[00:18:42] We still you know we still have that that even though it's much smaller but you know it's still there.

[00:18:48] Yeah I mean I think you are I think this for me is often the fact that there's so much pay history and those but you know although organizations may be trying to be more proactive today about fair pay practices there's still a lot of bias in pay history that organizations are living with today and so I think that's one key reason and then I think generally just as we see with the uncontrolled pay gap.

[00:19:15] You may set the most amazing pay policies but how they come to life in your organization and is maybe a different matter and it's you know people every time a pay decision is made in your organization that's an opportunity for bias to creep in and if you're not monitoring for that and you're not training people.

[00:19:36] On being able to identify those then you know we will continue to I think to see these you know small gaps in the control pay gap.

[00:19:45] Now one of the reasons I thought pay gaps was not going to close this year was because of paid transparency legislation that may seem a bit contradictory because pay transparency legislation is designed to close pay gaps but what I've seen working with customers working.

[00:20:05] With organizations in the market and talking to them about pay transparency is that I think you know that's where the big focus has been in the last 12 months so organizations are driven to you focused on complying with legislation obviously in the US you know many states bringing out legislation and that may have been a distraction to organizations who were potentially just starting their pay equity efforts or hadn't started their pay equity efforts.

[00:20:35] Because we know legislation you know always drives action.

[00:20:38] Now we interestingly did a breakdown of pay gaps by location and I do love the map in this year's studies so if you go to paste get I've got calm as Amy said and you look at the report you'll be able to see some of the wonderful graphics but we have a great map of the US by states and that has some degree allowed us to correlate.

[00:20:58] State pay gaps with those that have passed legislation here in the US can you explain a bit more the outcomes that we found Amy.

[00:21:08] Yes so we as we did look at the gender pay gap by both state and by metro so there are interactive tabloids hearts for both of those and you can talk between controlled and uncontrolled and you can hover over each of the states and look at some details related to each of the locations that we did analysis for.

[00:21:28] We highlighted the locations that have passed pay transparency legislation to date that legislation is expanding so this will be an interesting map to look at if a few years down the line to see if anything has changed what we find is that there is a correlation sort of between pay transparency and states that have closed the gender pay gap when data are controlled but it's not consistent so we can't draw like a clear line between.

[00:21:54] This legislation passed had these states have had closed have closed the pay gap for example Colorado was one of the first dates to pass this legislation and it still has a gap while other states like California Connecticut Maryland Massachusetts Montana New Hampshire New Jersey New York North Carolina New Mexico Oregon Vermont and Washington DC and Washington state all have closed the put that the pay gap when data are controlled not all those states have.

[00:22:24] Pay transparency legislation so it's not a one to one when looking at that data also interesting is that no state has closed the uncontrolled pay gap of Vermont is closest at 93 cents and it has been that way long before pay transparency legislation put its emphasis in America on pay equity or the intent behind pay transparency is to increase pay equity.

[00:22:50] It's also worth noting that the pay gap by location does fluctuate year to year based on survey participants how many we get in each state what kinds of jobs they have.

[00:23:00] We saw interestingly more states closed the pay gap in last year's report than we did in this year's report and that might just be an anomaly where we have to track it for several years to make sure that the data we're seeing is consistent year to year before we say yep these states have closed the pay gap.

[00:23:17] And it might be a result of the great resignation it could have been that for temporary time period when we just were increasing and there was a.

[00:23:27] Bananza of opportunity for people that pay gaps got smaller temporarily and then when the labor economy changed and people lost their jobs or as possibly as a result returned to office mandate which might have hit women harder than men that are replicated some of that progress.

[00:23:45] So definitely an interesting section of the report to read and enter watch over time.

[00:23:50] Yeah I think it's going to be a good baseline for us to be able to kind of look forward on that now Michelle where you're based in Europe obviously we don't have the same mandatory pay transparency legislation yet in place we obviously have the wonderful EU pay transparency directive that was passed so we will expect laws to come into force or they have to come into force across EU member states by June 2026.

[00:24:14] I think it is that as you've been working with organizations have they become aware of pay transparency are they talking about it how's that kind of fit into the general discussions that you're having with them.

[00:24:28] Yeah well obviously for those companies that are in the EU they are aware of it and it's almost like a kind of pound down plot for the things that they that they need to do.

[00:24:40] For UK companies which is most of the organizations that I work with I would say that this currently is not a priority mainly because you know the UK's outside of the European Union now so I think for a lot of organizations it's very much you know that's something that's happening over there and it's not a priority here for us.

[00:25:04] The only time that I have actually heard of organizations kind of starting to take this seriously is if they are part of if they're taking if they're a global company and they have offices in the UK and that company's taking part in some kind of certification like an equal pay certification and pay transparency is an issue then they you know will kind of take this on board but in terms of this being something that's been driven by you.

[00:25:34] UK employers something that they need to do we're not quite there yet however I do think that that is going to change over the coming years there's going to be pressure that's going to come to organizations to actually make this a priority.

[00:25:49] So the first place is the EU transparency directive obviously we're not in the EU but for organizations that want to trade with other organizations that are within the EU.

[00:26:02] We're probably going to see some of that pressure being applied through supply chains so it's particularly around as an ESG issues I think that's going to happen.

[00:26:11] The second being that if it's a global company with offices you know around the world I think we're going to start to see organizations not want to have a two tier approach when it comes to pay transparency so wanting to have that alignment and lastly you know like with you know a lot of legislation sometimes it comes because of societal pressure.

[00:26:31] You know we're currently living in the time where employees future and current employees expect to see some form of pay transparency because you know fairness within pay is something that is important to them.

[00:26:44] You know we're living in a time where so many people will turn to tick tock for financial advice or there'll be threads all over exp or you know as Twitter around how much people are earning depending on what their job role is.

[00:26:58] So I think we're starting to see those initiatives around showing the salary not asking people for you know what the previous salary is.

[00:27:08] We started to see that societal push for wanting much more disclosure and transparency around pay not to know not so that everybody knows everyone's business but so that people feel and understand how paying decisions are being made and that they can see that fairness and objectivity.

[00:27:27] So whilst it's not a priority here in the UK yet I do think that we're going to start to see that shift going forward because of all these different areas of pressure that's coming their ways and.

[00:27:38] Yeah it's definitely an evolving story and it would be interesting to have this conversation in 12 months time and see what's changed over that period.

[00:27:47] Now the last thing I wanted to touch on today is where we look into the report and we look at how race and gender intersect can you talk us through the data Amy and what trends did we see this year.

[00:28:01] Yeah so Payskills under pay gap report has looked at the pay gap by race for several years as long as I've been at pay scale the pay gaps for women are wider.

[00:28:12] Sorry one of color are wider than they are for white women but they are also making more progress towards closing the pay gap at a faster rate than white women black women and Hispanic women used to have the widest pay gaps I remember it was 60 cents cents for black women.

[00:28:30] 4 years ago when I first began writing these this report and now it's 80 cents that's still not closed so there's more work to be done but women of color are catching up at least those with college degrees remember this analysis is controlling for women salaried women with college degree so it is not looking systemically at the entirety of the problem but for a piece of that piece of slice of that problem we are seeing.

[00:28:58] The pay gap start to close and close more quickly for women of color who have had the widest pay gaps historically when data are controlled we actually see the pay gap close for most women of color this year and that's an exciting finding but we have to see that maintain consistency year over year before we can really say yes this is something that's happening again at least for women with a college degree who are in salary rolls.

[00:29:27] It doesn't mean that there's not still more work to do so I think that is encouraging but with a grain of salt we still have to look at the systemic reasons for why those gaps exist in the first place and really think holistically about the types of jobs women of color are being funneled into versus women generally and then also versus men.

[00:29:49] Yeah that was an interesting observation and it wasn't just in our data set I've looked at a couple of other data sets who and they've also seen that same trend like small closing of gaps for women of color I've got my own kind of theory on why that's happening Michelle any thoughts what are your observations on that.

[00:30:08] Yeah so I think obviously you know pay gap reporting in of itself has opened a lot of eyes as to what's generally happening within our organizations I think prior to having this as the very public thing there was an assumption that people paid fairly and that we have equity and everything is okay and then the data said actually it was still got quite a lot to do.

[00:30:32] And so and then when you kind of think about you know the experience of women and we're not just looking at why we're looking at women of color and then breaking down into different ethnic groups I feel that people are taking you know taking from the data what they need to think about well how does this impact me as a platform and how does this impact my community as you know South Asian woman.

[00:30:55] So I think what we're seeing as a result of that level of awareness are not only is there gender pay gaps but there's also ethnicity pay gaps as well and what does that intersectionality look like when you fall within to protecting characteristics.

[00:31:11] So I think you know a lot of this is to do with that raising of awareness and and you know and I've definitely seen so many conversations on LinkedIn in particular but people become much more vocal about you know what they want to ask for what they will tolerate what isn't isn't okay and the experiences that they've had with previous employees.

[00:31:33] So I do think that might explain some of that push that we're seeing in terms of how women are showing up in the workplace what they're asking for and then you know how employees respond to that as well but as Amy says it would be interesting to see you know what this looks like year and year to see you know is this a sustainable change that's happening or is the data going to show us something else over the coming years.

[00:31:59] Yeah and I think it's you know it's definitely not necessarily a time of celebration because as Amy said these gaps for women of color the gaps were larger in the first place so it's not like we're kind of like we've really some panacea yet so.

[00:32:15] Well thank you both of you and there's plenty more that we could talk about in this report we do have as Amy said another episode coming up where we are going to continue talking about the gender pay gap report and there's clearly you know still a lot of work that we all need to do in order to help close these pay gaps.

[00:32:35] Do you have any final recommendations Michelle for our listeners let's be closed out yeah I think the well there's two things I would say I would say I would say that we have a lot of work that we all need to do in order to help close these pay gaps.

[00:32:43] Well there's two things I would say I would say that you know any any pay gap report and that you do any work that you do around pay equity in pay transparency is something that's going to be of value to you and something that will go a long way for your current employees and your future employees to you know we live in an age where you can get instant information and people you know have the ability to make up their mind about all sorts of opinions because they have access to the information so.

[00:33:12] You know this might be a topic that you find scary and you don't know where it's going to need you but you know I would encourage you to still do this work and to seek advice and help when and as you need it I mean you know that's that's all purpose of you know the words that I do my business equality pays and for your pay scale as well and you to get that help.

[00:33:33] And the second thing I would say is you know I have a podcast that's called Be on the pay gap figure where I talk about you know the things are going on behind the scenes when it comes to closing back and pay gaps.

[00:33:46] So I talk about the things that you probably won't see a conversation being had on LinkedIn you know I'm happy to kind of spill the beans and give some insight into what is and isn't working and to help reassure you that the challenges that you might be facing are very normal but again it's about you know getting

[00:34:02] that the help when when you need it so yeah that that would be my advice.

[00:34:08] Great thank you Michelle and any any last words from you yes I really love what Michelle said about not making assumptions it was a little a little bit less than the segment prior not making assumptions that you do pay everyone fairly I think if you don't measure it you don't know so every organization can't ignore pay equity you can't ignore pay analysis even if you aren't able to ignore pay analysis.

[00:34:31] I'm able to invest in a whole pay equity solution either because you are you know concerned about what you might find you don't have the budget for this year you still need to be thinking about what you can do and looking at examining the difference in pay between various cohorts of people even beyond just gender and race like look at the pay gaps between cohorts of people who should be paid the same with your organization and if you're seeing gaps bring those stories to your leadership to make sure that the

[00:35:01] they understand that these are real people within their organization that they may not realize are underpaid and I think that's where a lot of this you know kind of theoretical conversation becomes more tangible and more actionable within organizations so yeah I just really think really thinking about those deficits and when what you can do is an individual for your organization to push that conversation a little further down the road.

[00:35:27] Right thank you Amy well that's what we think what do you think can we miss anything would you like to ask any more questions you can get in touch with us at coffee at payscale dot com and we look forward to hear seeing you on a another episode of our podcast but close out I'd like to say thank you very much Michelle and thank you very much Amy for all that you share today thank you very much and goodbye everybody.

[00:35:57] you