108: Spill the Beans on Pay Transparency Trends with Lulu Seikaly

[00:00:00] Join us on a journey where we unravel the latest trends, tackle your burning questions and explore innovative strategies that are shaping the future of compensation, all with a coffee in hand. Hello and welcome to this episode of Comp and Coffee.

[00:00:18] As we record this episode, paid transparency continues to be a hot topic in HR and compensation circles and with new laws and shifting expectations, organisations are navigating how to stay compliant while fostering trust with employees. So in today's episode, I thought it was a good time to break down some of the latest paid transparency trends and potentially what they mean for your organisation. So grab your coffee, settle in and join us for this insightful discussion.

[00:00:48] Now, if I'm talking about paid transparency, there's only one person that I'm going to invite to do that. And that is my friend and colleague, Luli Cycli. So you are my normal partner in crime on all things paid transparency here at Payscale and also our senior corporate attorney. As well. So welcome, Luli. Welcome back to a cup of coffee. Very happy to be back with my partner in crime, Ruth Thomas.

[00:01:12] We're going to have to remember we are actually recording a podcast here, Luli, and not just having a cup of coffee because it could all go off track. But we're talking about one of our favourite topics, paid transparency. There's a lot been happening. Probably we weren't expecting as much to be talking about as we are when we did our predictions at the end of December. But before we get started, are you a team iced coffee or a hot coffee gal?

[00:01:40] I am team I do not discriminate against coffee. The only thing I discriminate against is, which may be a hot take for your listeners, is I don't like sugar or milk in my coffee. I like my coffee black. So whether it's hot or cold, it has to be black. That's the only thing I'm particular about. And you're based in Dallas. So normally, I'm presuming it's cold coffee in the summer. But you've had snow and everything recently, haven't you?

[00:02:10] I mean, yeah. I mean, like today I woke up and it was 22 degrees outside. We're supposed to get snow in a couple of weeks. February is usually like the month where we get the worst ice and snow. But a few weeks ago, it was also 85 degrees outside. So we took Basil to a patio and had lunch on 85 degree weather in January, I guess it was. But yeah, the weather's been crazy. Now, Basil is obviously a regular attendee on our webinars.

[00:02:38] Do you want to explain who Basil is, Lulu, before we go on? For those of y'all who don't know, Basil is my 108 pound Bernese mountain dog. Swiss Bernese mountain dog. If y'all follow me on LinkedIn, I post about him quite a bit. But he is my most common co-worker who sits behind me on that chair usually or under my desk. So sometimes he sneaks in during the webinars to participate with Ruth and me. Well, so he's not here now.

[00:03:08] Where is Basil? We need Basil to join the podcast. He barks would be appreciated. Yeah, and I think he's sitting outside my office right now because he was barking earlier. So I had to kick him out. So I don't know. This is the time of day the mailman comes. So he likes to bark at the mailman. Okay, so we better start off with everything that's been going on. I know you follow pay transparency legislation very closely for us, both here in the U.S. and globally. As I mentioned, in our year-end predictions, we were unsure in the U.S.,

[00:03:38] particularly because of the change in administration, how much new legislation we might see. We probably obviously predicted that there would be not likely to see the proposed federal legislation pass. But we've seen loads of states. And it's just coming every day. So give us a run through what's been happening since the start of the year. Well, let's start at what's coming that we know for sure is coming. If y'all are employers in Illinois, Minnesota, beginning this past January,

[00:04:08] y'all were starting to require to post salary ranges in your job postings. We're also going to see three more states enact pay transparency this year. So in the summer, summer is going to be a little bit busy for folks in the Northeast. Come June 1st, New Jersey is going to be the next to enact pay transparency. And then 30 days later, July 1st, Vermont is going to be the next to enact pay transparency. And then for those of y'all in Massachusetts, we're going to wait until around Halloween time.

[00:04:34] October 29th is when Massachusetts is going to enact their pay transparency laws. So when Ruth and I were preparing for this podcast, this is how fast it's moving. When Ruth and I were preparing for this podcast, there were 10 states that had already proposed pay transparency laws. Now there are 11 states, and I imagine there's going to be more coming down the pipeline. So some of these states may be surprising to some of y'all.

[00:05:02] They were pretty surprising to me. So we've got Alaska, Connecticut, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, which we've seen proposed pay transparency before, but it not go anywhere. Missouri, Montana also proposed pay transparency last year. It didn't go anywhere. Oregon, most recently Pennsylvania and Virginia.

[00:05:28] We also saw proposed pay transparency last year, and it didn't go anywhere after that. So I've been posting like crazy on my LinkedIn every time there's a new update on what state has proposed a pay transparency law, how fast it's moving. Virginia's is moving pretty quickly again through the state legislature like it did last time. So just hang on. We'll see what happens.

[00:05:57] Any insight into why this rush of state proposed legislation? I don't know. I can speculate. My speculation is that a lot of these states know that there's not going to be any movement on the federal level. So they know that they can't wait for United States Congress or the U.S. Senate to pass a federal pay transparency law.

[00:06:20] So they're taking it upon themselves to do it themselves, which was part of our predictions in December, which was we're going to we're still going to see movement. And on the state level for pay transparency, we're just not going to see it on the federal level, at least in the next two years. Right. And as you say, we track this day by day. Lulu's LinkedIn. She's the queen of emojis on LinkedIn when it comes to posting about pay transparency legislation. So you can follow Lulu on LinkedIn.

[00:06:50] We also have a page that you keep up to date on payscale.com, which has a map and it kind of keeps you up to date with existing proposed and upcoming legislation. You also do a month, the legislative lowdown. Monthly. Right. So that's a blog that goes out from payscale.com as well, where you keep us up to date with all that is going on.

[00:07:15] So, you know, if you need to keep up to date, just follow us and we'll keep you going with this very active body of legislation in the U.S. that seems to be emerging. But of course, the U.S. isn't the only place that's seeing new legislation come into play. The other big thing that we've been watching is Europe, where I'm based. So I'm based in London.

[00:07:38] So the big news was back in 2023 when the EU Parliament passed its directive on pay transparency, which aims to strengthen equal pay for equal work of equal value through pay transparency, activities, gender pay gap reporting and other enforcement measures. And what that was was a directive by the EU. It was not law at that point.

[00:08:03] What happens now is that the member states of the EU had a time period, which is until June 26, to adapt or bring their own laws up to date in line with the directive. And we didn't really see a lot. I mean, we've been keeping watch. We didn't see a lot happening in 24, but things are starting to hot up. So who have we heard from in the EU? Where might we be expecting to see some movement, Lulu?

[00:08:31] I have to say, Ruth and I were actually in person together when we found out that the EU had passed the pay transparency directive. So I got very excited. And every after that, I was like, who's first? Who's first? Who's first? And no one has done anything. So it's been a very slow process.

[00:08:52] I think Ruth and I both said pretty early on, once one country passes that directive, it's going to be our we anticipate it's gonna be like a copy paste job where people are just going to copy what they've done and apply it moving forward. But we have seen one very tiny governmental entity in Brussels, the Fédération Wallonie-Brussels, pass or transpose the EU directive in the fall of 2024.

[00:09:21] And for those of y'all who don't know, my understanding is that this is like a federal entity in Brussels. It applies only to employers subject to the French community of this Belgium jurisdiction. So it's like a very like narrowly tailored kind of application. But more recently, we have seen some member states propose some drafts. And so we're kind of getting an idea of what some of these member states are thinking about. And Ruth and I were correct. Most of them are doing a copy paste job.

[00:09:50] And they're not really skewing away too far from some of the other like pay gap reporting as an example. They're not skewing too far away from what they're already doing, but making sure that they are complying with the directive. So we've seen drafts from Sweden, from Poland and from Ireland. Ireland is the most recent one we've seen a draft from. I posted about it just a couple of weeks ago. And then Germany last year said like, hey, a draft is coming. Don't worry.

[00:10:19] We're going to we're going to propose and pass something quickly. But we haven't seen anything come out of Germany quite yet. Germany was one of my top ones that I thought was going to be one of the first to pass pay transparency. And then we also have a couple countries put together working groups. Now, while these aren't drafts, while these aren't laws, they're transposing quite yet.

[00:10:39] We are seeing that some of these countries are actually putting folks together to start talking about and hashing out what a draft looks like to transpose the directive. So we're seeing working groups from the Czech Republic, from Finland and from Luxembourg. So stay tuned. It's like every morning I wake up, I'm sure Ruth does the same thing. And I'm like, anybody? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anybody pass anything? So I guess the top tip is to keep a watching brief.

[00:11:07] It's still a very active legislative environment. I mean, we've touched on the EU and US. We have laws passing in Canada. There's some laws passing in Latin America, too, and elsewhere in Asia and in the Pacific. But yeah, I think you basically got to keep a watching brief on it. Find a way that you keep up to date. As I said, if you follow us at Payscale, we are doing our best to keep you up to date. But you do need to keep a watching brief.

[00:11:35] And Ruth, I know we've also been looking at the UK. While the UK is not part of the EU, when the Labour Party won the last election, there was indication that the Labour Party was going to transpose something similar to the EU pay transparency directive. I don't know if you wanted to briefly talk about that. Yeah, so the Employment Rights Bill is one piece of legislation that is coming in. And also, I can't remember the name of the other bill. I'm going to have to look it up quickly for me. I put you on the slide here.

[00:12:05] Yeah, but there's another bill that is coming in that is proposing to expand gender pay gap reporting that currently exists and is law in the UK to also include race and disability. That isn't approved yet. But, you know, we do expect to see movement here in the UK, even though we are no longer part of the EU. Nothing specific on pay transparency yet, but definitely on pay gap reporting. OK, so a lot of legislation happening.

[00:12:32] But with these new laws rolling out across the different states and countries, compliance is obviously becoming more complex. What do you see as some of the biggest misconceptions when it comes to pay transparency laws? We spend a lot of time talking to customers, talking to prospects through webinars. What are those big misconceptions that you see happening?

[00:12:52] I think one of the largest ones and the most common ones for employers who just aren't familiar is that the term pay transparency kind of has this notion that you have to show you have to show off your salaries that everyone makes within the company. So a lot of companies are really hesitant to want to do that. Understandably so. Absolutely.

[00:13:15] But, you know, just as a reminder for those of y'all who aren't as familiar, pay transparency laws as currently written and as we're seeing them move through the legislatures, they don't require employers to post everyone's salary for the world to see. It's very much limited to the recruitment process and helping candidates negotiate their salaries.

[00:13:37] Why we see this is because we want these lawmakers understand that gaps begin when a candidate is hired or they can begin when a candidate is hired. So to kind of like cut that off from the beginning, make sure employers are complying from the beginning. That's why we're seeing these pay transparency laws.

[00:13:57] What we're also kind of looking at is, you know, when I talk to customers who are maybe resistant to posting salary ranges, even if they have to, even if they they if they're not required to by law. I tell them, like, this is a great social. This is not a social, but this is a great way to attract all sorts of talent.

[00:14:18] Listen, the the the thing that Ruth and I kind of talk about is her analogy is you would never go to an open house for a home without knowing how much they've listed that house for. Right. You don't know if they've listed that house. Let's say your budget's three hundred thousand dollars. You don't know if they've listed that house for three hundred thousand dollars or for three million dollars. You would never go in blind. I give the analogy of the caller ID.

[00:14:43] Like how many spam calls are y'all getting on your phones every day and how many of those are y'all picking up? Zero. Nothing. So now, I mean, we only will answer the phone if we know who's calling us. Similar to transparency, right? Candidates aren't going to apply to a job without knowing how much that job is looking to get to pay somebody to come into work for or at least give a range because they don't want to waste anybody's time. Yeah, great. And I think I'll pick that up from there in terms of a misconception.

[00:15:12] So you're right in the sense of saying, you know, it's not about posting everybody's salaries in the US. It's mainly about posting pay ranges on job postings. But you can't just stop there in an organization because you have to remember who's seeing those job postings. And of course, you know, that is inevitably your employees as well as employees in other companies and employees in competitive companies. So, you know, you need to also think about the impact on your internal employees.

[00:15:40] And that's something we talk about a lot is, you know, completing the whole journey. So whenever you post a job, you're obviously going to try and define the fair hiring range. And then what you also need to do is add that check in to look at your internal employees and see who else might be impacted and how they sit relative to that pay range that you're going to be posting. And people often forget.

[00:16:05] I mean, at the beginning, I think people forgot that they were very focused on posting the range without thinking on the impact of the employees. But people have obviously understood the impact of that. They've had bad reactions from employees. It's one of the things that we've been tracking in CBPR, our compensation best practice report, I think was a question we asked last year was, you know, have you seen employees leaving due to pay transparency? And it was a relatively small number. I think it was around 15%. I think we've asked that question again this year. The new study is coming out in March.

[00:16:35] I haven't looked at that data to see what that is. But yeah, you know, don't think this is just about posting pay ranges. In job postings, it's also about how your employees internally will feel about this. And so many organizations, when we talk about pay transparency, are worried about tension with employees or legal risks.

[00:17:01] So how can HR and compensation leaders practically address these concerns while staying compliant? I'm just going to reiterate a lot of stuff you just said, which is the overarching theme is get your house in order. Some organizations think that they can just willy-nilly post salary ranges on job postings and then voila, magically they're compliant. But preparing to post salary ranges really, truly takes a lot of work on the back end.

[00:17:30] And this is not to scare y'all from going through the steps, but rather to incentivize y'all to go through the steps. Because it is a big lift if you're not prepared. But once you've taken that big lift, y'all can put it on autopilot moving forward. So what does getting your house in order mean? Ruth and I talk about this on our webinars in quite detail. But like at a high level, it's building out your job descriptions, doing leveling projects, creating job architecture,

[00:18:00] using market data to build your salary ranges, conducting internal pay equity checks. That's what Ruth was kind of like really hanging her hat on earlier when she was talking about making current employees upset. If you're posting, if let's say you're hiring engineers, a software engineer level one, and your engineers are making $80,000 a year, but magically you've posted a role for a software engineer one, and the salary range is $100,000 to $150,000,

[00:18:29] what do you think your current engineers making $80,000 are going to say to you, right? Like you need to make sure your house is in order, and you figured out that the ranges that you're posting, not only are within your budget and, you know, are consistent with market data, but that your incumbent employees fall within that range. And if they don't, think about bringing them up into that range because you don't want to have attrition issues. You don't want to have pay equity issues. There's all sorts of things that can happen when you're not prepared.

[00:19:00] But I mean, like I said, it sounds like a lot of work. We don't mean to scare you into doing it, but once you have that work done, it's going to be an autopilot sort of muscle that you're going to have moving forward. Yeah. Now we've talked a lot about laws. We've talked about compliance with laws. Obviously, that's a big focus of people's concentration at the moment with regard to all this emerging legislation. But sometimes we can lose, you know,

[00:19:28] what pay transparency is really about, and that is about trust. So what are some of the best practices you recommend for companies that want to move beyond just thinking about the legal requirements and truly embrace pay transparency as part of their culture? I want to just like double down on something you just said, Ruth, which is the trust piece. Our reporting at Payscale, like our research and reports at Payscale show

[00:19:55] that one of the main reasons why an employee leaves an organization isn't because their pay is bad. It's because they don't trust that organization, and they don't understand why they're being paid the way they're being paid. So how do we combat that? Well, one of the best things y'all can do as a company is let your employees into that conversation. Why not provide every employee in your company their salary range for the role that they're sitting in during the performance review process?

[00:20:25] Not to brag on Payscale, but we do that at Payscale. So every employee knows what their salary range looks like for the role that they're currently sitting in, and then where they fall on that salary. Are they at the 50th percentile? Are they at the 75th percentile? How much more do they have to move up through the salary range? Why not communicate to employees why they fall within the range that they fall into? You know, once an employee, I'm going to say it again because I think it's really important, but like once an employee understands

[00:20:55] why they're being paid, the way they're being paid, they're less likely to leave. Most of the time an employee believes they're being paid below market, but they have no reasons as to why they believe that, right? Maybe they're talking to friends that live in other cities or working for larger or smaller companies, etc. But understanding why they're being paid the way they're being paid makes those ideas dissipate. So, and it's, this is such an easy, easy, easy thing to do for an employer

[00:21:26] because think about how much it costs your organization to replace an employee who leaves, right? What is, what is this? I think the statistic is still, it takes about six months for an employee to be profitable. Fully ramped. Fully ramped. Fully ramped, right? Fully ramped when they get part of the organization. If you can at least like let them in. And I think that's like paid, we'll talk about this a little bit later, but like I think that's why paid communications is going to be super important moving forward for all organizations, whether there's going to be legal requirements to do so or not.

[00:21:55] It's just best practice. And I think those companies, those high performing companies with low attrition rates, they're the ones communicating to their employees. This is the market data we use. This is, you know, we aim for this percentile in the range. You may be up, you may adjust up or down based on these particular factors, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's really important. And I think, you know, if you can really try and relate that to your organization,

[00:22:24] just like how important trust is around compensation, it will really help you unlock potentially some of the business motivation for doing this beyond just legal compliance. I mean, we hear time and time again when we're doing our webinars, you know, how do I get my leadership to buy into this? Ultimately, you know, if your employees trust you, then they will be more engaged. They are more likely to stay with you and they are more likely to be productive

[00:22:52] and help you achieve the business goals that you want to achieve. And ultimately, that leads to organizational success. And that's kind of the magic equation that we think of here. And if you really think about it, you know, transparency doesn't just relate to pay transparency, but it relates to how we interact with each other in the world, how we interact with our families, how we interact with, you know, different people within the business. Ultimately, transparency breeds trust and it does create openness, accountability

[00:23:22] and fairness in relationships. And that's really what's happening here in terms of pay transparency because it reduces uncertainty and anxiety. It shows integrity and honesty. So, you know, we see where organizations are more transparent. There is a much greater trust in leadership in that organization and ultimately transparency because it's very hard to hide in equity. Once you have transparency, it helps you to achieve that fairness and consistency. So, if you're, you know, if you're struggling

[00:23:52] to really join those dots, we have resources that can help you on that. We've had some webinars where we've covered beyond, like, beyond compliance. I think we did a webinar maybe in the fall last year, I think, about, you know, why this is also a question of trust. And we had lots of research to support that. So, do reach out to paystyle.com and you can find some of those resources there. Okay. So, let's look forward again and think about

[00:24:20] what's coming down the line. Probably more legislation. We're probably fairly certain that we can bet on that. But what are some of the trends or potential legal challenges that we should be keeping our eye on in this space, in the pay transparency space? What things else might happen? I think there's going to be an increased focus on pay equity audits. And I say that only because the EU pay transparency directive is going to really, like, lean on that requirement for member states to make sure that they have

[00:24:50] those processes in place. On the U.S. side, we do see some states that are requiring... They're not really pay equity audits, but they're, like, pay reporting. So, like, in Illinois, Minnesota, California, New York is proposing one right now. There are starting to... We are starting to see some of those Canada, Europe-type requirements when it comes to pay reporting. And then, you know, we see, like, countries

[00:25:19] like New Zealand and Australia who are already kind of getting on the train. They don't have pay transparency in place, but they've got pay gap reporting requirements and they're public. So, I mean, you can go onto a government website, type in your employer and figure and see, you know, what pay gaps your employer, your current employer has. Um, when pay transparency first started, we saw a lot of companies kind of resist

[00:25:47] posting salary ranges. So instead of just not posting salary ranges, they were posting these very wide ranges, like million-dollar spread ranges. And we're seeing states like New York and Washington and California go after employers like that saying, hey, our laws say you have to post a good faith range and that million-dollar spread is not a good faith range. Some of the new laws we're seeing right now being proposed, they are actually, like,

[00:26:17] defining what a good faith range looks like. So some states say a good faith range is the actual budgeted range for the role. Some states say it's, um, it's the actual range of incumbents sitting in the role. Some states, I mean, there's, like, other, there's other requirements. So I think that we're going to see as, as, um, states start narrowing what that good faith range looks like, I think there's going to be more strict, um, enforcement of what that means. And I think states are going to start holding companies and

[00:26:46] organizations more accountable to that. Um, and then I think the other piece, which I, I kind of, like, hinted to before was about pay communication. So being transparent about your pay beyond just the recruitment process. And again, this does not mean putting up everyone's salary range in your organization for everyone to see. So that way Ruth can see what I make and I can see what Ruth makes. No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about Lulu Cycli, the senior corporate attorney knows what the

[00:27:16] range of a senior corporate attorney at Payscale makes and Lulu knows where she falls within that range. Ruth knows what the, what the salary range for the chief evangelist is and she knows where she falls within that range. We are starting to see some states like Pennsylvania as an example, who just proposed pay transparency starting to require organizations to provide that on like as a legal requirement on a yearly basis. So again, my opinion, my non-legal opinion, Lulu,

[00:27:46] the human opinion is you should be providing that information on an annual basis anyway during the performance review process. We haven't seen that level of rigor that's coming in the EU pay transparency in any of the US laws yet, but it could come. The EU pay transparency directive is very rigorous in terms of the amount of information that you need to share with employees because it talks about employees having the right to request at any time

[00:28:16] what the average pay gap is for the group of employees that are doing the same or similar work as them and also employers will be obliged to provide like career progression or pay progression information. So like what is it that an employee would have to do? I mean, that'd be interesting to see that starting to come in into the US store. Well, it's funny you say that because I think it was Pennsylvania, it was one of the most recent states that proposed pay transparency recently, that they have the requirement

[00:28:46] of not only are you required to provide that information annually, but if an employee requests the salary range or the pay range of folks doing substantially similar work, it's almost like verbatim from the EU pay transparency directive. So Pennsylvania on the US side, I believe, don't hold it to gospel yet, but I believe is the only US state that's kind of like looked to the directive to say, hey, that's interesting information. Now we're going

[00:29:16] to have to talk about what substantially similar looks like. Like what is a substantially like who would that be? Right. So you'd have to do that as an organization. And then for for those of you on the US side, in case you haven't heard, TikTok is back, which is which is important for the sense of like employees are increasingly demanding greater clarity about pay decisions and raises and career growth. And employees are not afraid to go online,

[00:29:45] especially on platforms like TikTok, to talk about their grievances or to talk about how poorly their organization is treating them or other than to talk about how great the organization treats them. So I think that that's while that's not like a legal consideration, it's definitely maybe it's like we put that in the PR bucket consideration of, you know, this is a good being transparent with your employees about how they're being paid, the way they're being paid, et cetera, could benefit you in the long run. Yeah. I'm not on TikTok.

[00:30:15] I'm too old, Lulu, too, but my daughters are on TikTok. I wonder, have you seen any TikTok videos where people are talking about the pay ranges they seem on adverts relative to how they're paid? Yeah? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's very interesting. I'm not a poster of TikTok. I am a watcher of TikTok. So just make that very clear. I'm too old to post on TikTok. But yeah, it's very interesting. I mean, I think social media, especially for organizations, has thrown

[00:30:45] kind of a wrench in how you structure, how you strategize in this area, I guess, because employees, especially the Gen Zers of the world, maybe even some of the millennials of this world, are not afraid to speak out about if they feel like they're being underpaid, if they feel like they're being prosecuted, if they feel like they're being, you know, whatever, insert term here. So, I mean, as an employer, if you can provide, you don't have to be that transparent, you don't have to be like, like,

[00:31:15] translucent transparent, but at least providing enough information to make an employee understand, like, hey, like, we're not just, like, randomly deciding what your salary is, like, there's thoughtful processes that go behind this. Yeah. And I think, if I think about another trend, probably a final trend is now in the U.S. particularly with so many states, you know, proposing, rolling out legislation, just focusing on being legally compliant in the states where you are required to be as

[00:31:45] fast becoming something that, you know, you can no longer do because so many states, you know, have a requirement. So I think, you know, we've talked for a long time about potentially, you know, maybe you've got three jurisdictions, the best thing is to do is to go with, like, look at the minimum or the maximum of all of them and that becomes your national policy in the U.S. and therefore, by doing that, you're kind of protecting yourself against the laws but you're also ensuring consistent employee experience

[00:32:15] for your employees throughout the country. If that is a problem for you, let me plug a webinar Ruth and I just did with Kim Taylor where we talked about building salary ranges and that was a question we got. It's a very common question Ruth and I get all the time but we got this question again in that webinar which is, you know, I'm a multi-state employer, I pay differently for employees in San Francisco than I do in Boise, Idaho. Like, how am I supposed to post ranges? So we have, we talked through, like,

[00:32:45] some suggestions of what you can take to your legal counsel to see what's best for your organization. So if that's something that you're really struggling with, I would highly recommend checking that webinar out. Yeah, that's a good call out and we'll make sure that we include the link to that webinar in the episode information. Okay, well I think we could probably talk as always all day about pay transparency, but we are going to draw this podcast episode to a close. So thank you Lulu for sharing your expertise

[00:33:14] again today. We've covered a lot of ground from navigating evolving pay transparency laws to leveraging transparency as a more strategic tool as an advantage for your businesses. So we, as you say, we keep an ongoing watch on this. We keep you up to date through pay legislative guides on payscale.com. I mentioned earlier Lulu's blog, the legislative lowdown, and then we do a quarterly briefing webinar where we normally just

[00:33:43] kind of wrap up what's happened, any key changes that have happened to basically keep you briefed. And as Lulu said, the other good way of doing that is follow Lulu on LinkedIn because she's very active on there in terms of keeping you up to date. So thanks, Lulu. Thanks for joining me today on this Friday afternoon as we're recording this. Good to see you really. Yeah, as I said, we could probably talk forever on this, but let's close out. Hope you've enjoyed the discussion. If there's anything else you'd like us

[00:34:13] to talk about here on Comp and Coffee, then feel free to reach out at any time to coffee at payscale.com. And thank you very much for tuning in and we'll see you next time. Thank you. Thank you.