Mastering Job Interviews with Sam Owens: Tips, Techniques, and Transformative Strategies

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. Today's episode is brought to you by Career Club Corner, our weekly Thursday at 1 o'clock Eastern Time Group Coaching Calls. They are free for all job seekers, and they will always be free.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you are someone you care about as in Job Search and they would benefit from some expert career coaching, we'd invite you to go to career.club, just click on the main banner, and that it will get registered for Career Club Corner, again,

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and we would be very happy to be able to do that. So today I am super excited for those of us who are in the career coaching job search coaching business, it's actually pretty cool because people are very collaborative

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and you end up meeting a lot of great people. Today's guest is Sam Owens, and Sam's founder of Sam's Career Talk where he provides coaching services and helps people find their dream jobs.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: He's also a CMO who is worked for three multi-billion-yard companies in the consumer package goods industry, and now runs marketing for freezing point, makers of Frasal. He lives in Denver, Colorado with his wife, Gina, and therefore kids.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: He's also the author, and this is what we're talking about today. I hate job interviews. So if you're a job seeker, ever been a job seeker that might be a sentence it's fallen from your lips, and we're going to learn more about how to not hate job interviews quite so much. And so with that, Sam, welcome.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks for having me, Bob. Great to be here. No it's great to have you. Thanks so much. So before we dive into the book which I am super interested in, thank you for sending me a preview version of that. I love it.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Is just a couple icebreaker questions for folks to get to know you a little bit. So I said, Jordan Denver, were you born in racing Colorado?

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm from Walnut Creek, California, San Francisco Bay Area. Oh, awesome. How long have you been in the Denver area?

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So we've been here for about 10 years. We've been all over for my career. So we have four kids. Each kid was born in a different state.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So we have the oldest born of Virginia, then Utah, then Nebraska, then Colorado, our youngest was in Colorado. So we either have to, we either have to stop having kids or we have to move those are the options.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That's fine. So we have four kids too. So my, my empathy level is really, really high. I think we've moved seven times. Okay. Yeah and I always say creditors are very persistent.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's cool. That's awesome. It's a real blessing.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then where did you get to go to school in California or we're just I went to school. I went to undergrad in Idaho and then my graduate. I got an MBA actually a bream on in Proville in Proville.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That's I cannot believe it, but I graduate my MBA in 2009. I can't believe it's been that long.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry. I mean, the half kids man it goes by really fast. Yes. So I mentioned a little bit that you're a marketer.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you might just maybe very briefly walk in a spare.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Just a little bit how you how you've ended up in a frousal. Yes, absolutely. So I, I came out of business school with the mentality that, you know, I want to get with a big company that's going to give me great training and then later.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to try to get to maybe a smaller company that's more high growth. Everyone's got their own strategies that just kind of happened to be mine. I just wanted to get that training from a big company and so I went with conagre foods right at the business source.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I intern there and then so I worked on stuff like Marie calendar's pot pies and healthy choice and stuff like that. So frozen meals, very big business, very big category.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And was great experience met amazing people got kind of cut my teeth not an easy experience. You know, it's kind of putting in your time working hard. You're kind of at the bottom and you're kind of doing the grunt work and grinding it out.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after five years I thought, okay, frozen foods good, but it's kind of it's big. It's good, but it's kind of flat, you know, at least to the time it was kind of slow growth and so I said, well, what?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Where's an opportunity where I could go a little bit more high growth and I went out getting into organic and natural foods and went to white wave foods.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was silk almond milk and horizon organic milk and stuff. I just saw a really big growth opportunity there.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And after a couple years there, the Dan and yogurt company wound up buying that division and so then I worked for Dan and for a while.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So after so now it's been 12 years and I had felt like I'd gotten kind of the big company kind of credibility training kind of new, at least to it is best you could knew what I was doing in the marketing world.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that said, okay, now I'm interested in going a little bit smaller. Maybe something more high growth growth where I can get a piece of the action and maybe make kind of put my bigger stamp on.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, on what I'm doing. And so I went actually did cauliflower foods which was a cauliflower pizza crust company for a little while with great experience.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Company was in a little bit more I think actually now it's there's there's there's to there's cauliflower and cauliflower.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Our work for cauliflower, I think that company is now they've actually closed so good business but it was just really tough we had our own manufacturing facility and we're making you know fresh cauliflower.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: She's very expensive to make and so in the process I kind of saw I kind of read between the line that this is going to be a tough business.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But I love that it was small, I love the people I was working with and so it was at that point that a friend from business school who runs for as well called me.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And and said, hey, just got a marketing question for you. What do you do about this or that and I said, well, let's maybe talk about what if I worked for you.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So, oh that's interesting. And so we just got to talking and I you know kind of did a little moonlight arrangement for them for a few months and it was good and so now it's been over two years since I've been there and I'm not missing.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and then now that's awesome you and I share a lot in the marketing CPG.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know, but which I think will actually carry forward into what I suspect are some of the principles that we find in the book.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And then lastly and quickly, would it be fine you have four kids or probably already know the answer to the question, what do we find you doing when you're not at work?

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a great question say yeah four kids two of them are teenagers so you can imagine that.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we spend time we have an extended family cabin and West Jell is doing Montana.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a terrible.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I know actually just there last week my son graduated high school. We took him on like a motorcycle and fishing trip and stuff.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So we the first and foremost we spend as much time as possible there as we can.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And then yeah, I'd say the rest of it is going to gymnastics meets and volleyball games and you know doing all those all those things where life just got super busy and crazy.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but we love it.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a much fun. I learned a few things along the way there. So that was very cool. So thank you.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's just kind of get right into it. You know what was the that I guess maybe how do you get into career coaching.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but that sounds like that's probably the extension of what we're making the book come about.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as you know in in CPG companies big companies there's opportunities to get involved in recruiting and kind of training and stuff like that.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You can kind of do extra curricular things even your expected to do extra curricular things.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just had always had an interest in kind of the training element that would train on data data storytelling and different marketing things and just became really interested in this training speaking space mentoring coaching.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And said, you know what I'd be interested in writing a book and so I actually have a book before this one.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But I self published it's called the eight career skills you didn't learn in college and I liked I wrote that book because I noticed all these things and corporations that were making people successful that I never learned in college like how do you deal with the tough boss or how do you you know navigate managing other people or telling a great story.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a great presentation. So I wound up writing this book, I tried to get it published traditionally and the agents said, well you don't really have much of an audience, you know so that and that's that's a lot of times what they care about most is what your platform what your audience.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And and I think the book probably didn't hook people in in the same way that my new book did.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So I wound up publishing that book and then said, well I guess I'm going to just start building an audience as well so I started posting on LinkedIn getting into it pretty soon

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I was taking clients and I noticed that as I showed clients the book there was a lot of energy around one chapter which was the skill was called evolving but it was about job interviews and resumes and stuff like that.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That was getting a lot of interest and I thought to myself man, I wonder if I could do a book just I wonder if I could take that chapter and just do a book on that.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I and I was concerned that it wouldn't fill up a whole book. I thought, I was just a chapter you know but as I got more into it I realized that there is so much to the job interview.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02]: First of all the stakes are so high.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Second of all you can't outsource it, you know you can get a resume writer or something but but there you just with the job interview you're sitting now for 45 minutes and it's just you there's no do overs.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: There nothing is just you and so with those kind of stakes and that kind of stress and anxiety I thought man there's something really interesting here.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I created this title which is what most of my clients kind of expressed to me in our first meeting which is I hate this, this is the worst.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And thought man what if I could create a book out of this that shows the system I use and be useful.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So I've kind of the journey and you know just kind of one thing led to another that's how I got to this book and where it is and then Harper Collins wound up being interested in it and picked it up and it launched yesterday.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well congratulations so we're recording this time but we're just today June the wind in fifth the fifth so June the fifth so congratulations that's awesome.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So the what's just sort of kind of store off with at a very high level what's the basic principle worth it where are the principles that you want somebody to pull from us.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think if I would start at the main thing someone says all right let's talk about job and your viewing because what what people usually ask me is what's the one thing I can do to stand out in an interview you know if I go to speak to college students or something what's the one thing.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And the answer I give they usually don't like which is the one thing is everything.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: There is no one thing that there it's kind of like a Kung Fu Panda you know the big reveal at the end where where.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Poe is trying to get the secret sauce from his dad the noodles and he goes there is no secret ingredient there is no secret sauce and so if there's one thing that I would that I want to get across is that interviewing as a learn skill.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And that it is a matter of practice and most people believe that interviewing is like well I'm pretty charismatic I'm pretty good with people I'm sure I'll be fine.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I've learned is a Christmas great and it's a it's a leg up and it helps as a start.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But by no means does that mean you're going to be the best interviewer of all your competition and a competitive interviewing environment.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's kind of the first thing I lay out is say hey sorry hey to break it to you we're going to have to prepare for 10 hours for your next interview.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's probably the first the first principle and then after that the book lays out a step by step process for preparation even provides a checklist one things that you need to do.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You know one is one one would be for example what I call get inside information.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Which which is terrible and finance you know you don't want to you don't want to get inside information in the financial world.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But in job interviewing if you do it right it's actually a really good thing it actually helps people it actually impresses company companies and so I want people to.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: To put a way to laptop put down the phone and actually you know put down there there's smartphone but actually hop on a phone and talk to people or ask to take people to lunch to actually understand.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: What's going on at these companies and get the information they need to do well the next phase would be you know you know I kind of go into.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's how you craft your power stories in your power examples don't try to anticipate you know a thousand different questions.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Bucket your your answers or your stories into different categories based on the job description and make sure when you go into that interview you know okay I got these 10 stories that I can draw from that are just amazing.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after that I go into very specific questions types and just kind of get into it the introductory question the behavior question the case question.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay let's go through some of this.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so first of all you know on the preparation like amen and you know but but I've been on the phone with a client is recently is this morning and I was sharing with him like I know it sounds like a lot of work but.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know the the.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Cogniz the poise the confidence that you're going to exude because you know you prepared is like going to do you a tremendous amount of good it's going to give you clarity and peace of mind.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: In the middle of as you said, this very high stakes conversation that you're having.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So massively agree with that.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And then on the stories again this is what I love about our community is you know there's a lot of there's a lot of crap advice but there's a lot of really high quality people like you out there that.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Or what I teach you what I believe in the right things so you don't need 100 answers for 100 questions.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You need a playlist of like 10 the trick is is knowing the attributes of those different stories and how to kind of shape them to the situation I know we're going to this.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah in a minute, but just that idea of dear listener you don't need 100 stories for 100 questions.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right stories that you can repurpose to meet the need of the individual that you're talking that's right small tweaks in the moment.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so so with what's just kind of get down to the first thing that somebody gets asked I'm going to you've got a whole thing on this and really want to I can't wait for this.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah Sam so great to meet you. Thanks so much have a seat. It's great to have you in today. So yeah like you know I've seen a resume anything but tell me about yourself I love to hear about you.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes that's right this is this is the introductory question right whether it's phrased is tell me about yourself walk me through your resume why are you here.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all the same thing they're all asking the same thing if they could ask what they really wanted to ask it would be tell me why in three minutes why you are the perfect person for this job and why.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be the best conversation of my day because I can stop interviewing people which I don't want to do by the way because it's not quarter my job and tell me why I can just be like yes thank goodness.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to do this anymore because I can just take this person that's what they would ask they might throw in and please do it quickly because I'm in a hurry they might they might throw that into.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But instead they say tell me about yourself and I think one mistake people make is they assume that this is just a warm up question you know oh well I like long walks on the beach and I'm you know whatever you know like let's just warm up and get to know each other and I think that this question is time it's game on.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay this is my opportunity to really demonstrate three things one that I have relevant experience for this position to that I excel at what I do so in my prior positions I didn't just.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I have relevant experience but I actually was a high performer and three that I'm really interested in this job and I think if you can do those three things in the first three to four minutes.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're in great shape and the way you do that is you start by walking through the experiences of your resume highlighting the ones that are the most important to the job description.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And as you do that you weave in a couple things maybe that's and then I was selected to run this project or I was promoted.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Or then I was given more responsibility or and then or then I saved the company this money you weave in certain results to show okay this person doesn't just have the responsibility but this person.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I could tell this is this is a high performer this person is good and then after you walk through the experience then you need to almost weave this.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: This this story that all the stars of a line to make this thing just the perfect fit, you know.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You can talk about why you're so interested in the company whether it's you know and you know I love my current job but there are certain things that I'm not getting that this company I know will provide and that's why I'm so interested.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But you want to weave this story that makes it look you know it's almost like if you if you make a crude comparison to dating.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to you want to show that you're good for them but you also want them to feel like.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You know that that you really want to to be with them as well you know there's that given take right and you want them to walk away thinking okay this person actually would would take this offer if I if I got it so.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot to ask in the first three minutes but I think if with practice it can be done and it can set the tone for the rest of the interview.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we do that in a way that isn't rambling because that's something that so many candidates struggle with.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, but I have to tell you everything right now because I might forget it or if I don't see it now like I believe how do you do that with that.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So of the 10 hours that I recommend half of that is is practice.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know some of it's getting inside information some of it's where but but half of that is practice and the reason is that we think and I use this example in the book which is is hit there's this if you've seen it there's this scene where.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Where where hit will Smith is teach he's the date doctor and he's teaching our brunaman Kevin James had a dance and he says alright let's review like your dancing skills and he goes, sorry I got that it's fine and he's like no what do you mean you got that.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: He's like I have to see it and then Kevin James you know starts dancing and of course it's a total disaster and it's like you know he slapped some and stuff but.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That's seen it's like one of the best scenes ever but it it I think it applies so much to job and you're viewing because there's so many times you think alright yeah I understand that conceptually so I probably could do that.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But with practice and you actually do it you start even when you're saying it you start to think to yourself okay this isn't coming out is good as I thought it would I'm not I am rambling I'm not doing as well and so my thing is.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone does that just do that in your practice session and then you won't have to ramble and feel that regret right is your interviewing which I felt before.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You know I felt like as I'm speaking in my mind I'm thinking I should have practiced this I should have practiced this because I'm rambling and so yeah I think.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I I've seen people really tighten it up with just a little practice and feedback whether it's with the coach or even with someone just a friend or something just having an accountability source.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: That they can practice with that's improved I mean in my clients the difference I see between mock interview one and mock interview two is like they're like 90% there just by just by doing that.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's such great advice and when I was reading the book and came to that section I'm like yes thank you so much because even me like when I did my very very first podcast.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I was freaked out just on being able to say hi my name's Bob Goodman.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's in founder of CareerClave welcome to the first episode of CareerClave Live.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I literally walked around my neighborhood like for an hour just saying what was really like 15 seconds.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I needed to hear myself say the words and that's the difference because like let's say that I've got my stories written out right and I call this humming is okay.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And then yeah.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay I got this and say no that is that is not practicing that's called weeding which is very different and you're very good reader but you've got to hear yourself say the words and where you start to stumble and you go, God that was stupid.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let me press rewind and start over because as you say and again this is just interviews are game day there there is no do over.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you can hear yourself say something that was clumsy let me try that again.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, do that in front of somebody who's not going to hire you.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I made the hire you.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that concept of humming. That's funny. Yeah, I totally know what you mean you're like, oh yeah, no, no, no, no, no, okay.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You run it through in your mind and you think it's fine.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's like, actually when you're sitting there and there's already tension because you're in an interview it feels different, you know.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what do you find that this is I think so deep at the root of why people don't interview well which is fundamentally a lack of confidence.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: How does kind of understand, you know, your thoughts on that and I think we know some of it because I think we just said it but how to build confidence so that I actually feel good about this.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Chapter one is yeah, is convince your heart's is critic.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You convince your heart's is critic which is you, you're your harshest critic and the way to build it I mean I always say like I wish I had some sort of meditation technique for you or something that would be easy.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But I found that true confidence only comes on the other side of hard practice and just getting after it.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where real confidence comes.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people say, well I'm not going to be as confident if I practice because we can like that and I say well being yourself is an interesting concept because.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I could be my the self that yelled at my kids last night to go to bed. I could be that self that's still myself so I kind of say how about your best self how about your most practice self.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think there's there's a couple elements here obviously we talked about practice but in the book I talk about confidence myths or job interview myths or what I call BIT's bad interview thoughts.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What are these things that you tell yourself that kind of destroy confidence that aren't necessarily true one of them might be hey you know interviewing is mostly for extroverts I'm an introvert so it's just harder for me it's like well that's not true introverts can be very good if not better than extroverts at interviewing.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And it really doesn't have anything to do with it it's about practice another myth you know.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh job interviewers make up their mind in the first couple minutes so I don't really need to prepare beyond that you know what is like well that's not that's not true that that's been that's kind of repeated but that's not really actually the data doesn't even support that.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Some do but but the majority of job interviewers actually make up their mind in the first 15 30 minutes and so you really should practice beyond that so there's all these myths and things that we kind of tell us that tell ourselves.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That destroy confidence so I think busting those is probably the first step and then saying alright time to practice.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I for me building on what you're saying is.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Confidence is not the same as cocky and it's not the same as arrogant that's right I think sometimes people miss here confident most of the clients and maybe this is just the current job environment that we find ourselves in or whatever are significantly lacking in confidence and there's the which is basically self belief.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and you know when this is branding and it's core which is what are your convictions what do you actually believe is true.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And you laid out some things that aren't true but there the candidate needs to know what she really believes that she's good at that she cares about that she can excel at.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And and and just present that but you have to do the work on the front end to know kind of what your brand pillars are.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then whether that resonates or doesn't resonate it's kind of on the interviewer but as long as you're presenting your best self if you believe is true about you.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: What you're passionate about which you're proficient at where you excel where you want to take your career to the next level.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Then you're going to genuinely convey that and when we do that we sit up straight or we modulate differently smile more or eyes are more open.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And the way I say this is a beautiful thing about confidence is it's contagious when you believe you make me believe.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right and and so so much of this is in your head it is right and that's what I love about.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what you were sharing your book is this again, this notion of confidence.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But confidence can be earned right and I think through a say through preparation so let's use that as a as a segue to get into basically stories and you know power examples.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah talk to us which you mean by that.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes the idea behind power examples is first and foremost.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: A careful study of the job description people sometimes don't don't realize what a gold mine the job description is it's basically telling you the types of skills they're looking for.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Hence the types of questions they're going to ask and so when I am preparing for a job or helping a client always I ask for the job description.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can pick out usually pretty quickly okay you're going to be asked a strategic thinking question you're going to be asked a question about how you manage details you're going to be asked a question about your leadership style.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and so if you can do that first you write those down and you have six or seven skills that you say okay these are the things they're trying to assess.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Then you have a start on what stories that you want to develop okay I want to do two leadership examples two times I demonstrated leadership.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I want to do two times where I showed analytical ability and I want to do two times where I did this and pretty soon you have you know about ten kind of examples and that serves as like the foundation for what you're going to talk about in the stories you're going to tell you don't have to with this stage yet you know fully flesh.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask you to share the amount we talk about that in another chapter which is creating you know I call them spar stories and we can talk more about that but.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is the foundation where it takes you know half hour to an hour to say alright.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I can think about these different experiences and now I got ten kind of power examples power stories that I can build from.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And what makes him power what do you mean by power it's your best stuff you know it's like okay yeah I can give you twenty examples of.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to do one idea demonstrated leadership but these two really just they just seem to kind of nail it for the job interview like these are the ones and I say power because.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the temptation is not to eliminate the other 18 but you really should eliminate the other 18 maybe got forty five minutes they're going to ask you one maybe two questions about leadership.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like play the hits you know like.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You know that's the same I'm bragging this makes me feel like I'm bragging I'm very uncomfortable to.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you know let's just address that head on what what I tell people and they say I feel like I'm bragging.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I say look it's not bragging if you are telling a story based on facts you know there's a big difference between saying I am a great leader.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And telling a story with facts that just let's them that the only conclusion they can come away with is that you're a great leader I mean it's just facts at this point right.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's another reason for practice is because you can basically walk them through a story that almost takes you out of it I mean you're you're the star of the story but you're just telling the story so you're not saying oh you know I'm so great to know this in that.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Just tell the story and in the end there's thinking yeah this person really did do that therefore they're a great leader.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there this probably asks this question really clumsily.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You know we've got a resume right in our resume in theory you've got bullet points on it that you know I was in this role and I accomplished XYZ if there's.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Shouldn't that be the foundation for a lot of these stories yeah I definitely can be I actually think to that.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: When I go over resumes with people I also craft a resume based on the job description so I don't really like just hey here's my boilerplate resume and I blasted out to.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like the shock on approach it's like look here are the three companies I want to work with and I'm on the phone and I'm crafting a resume specifically for that company.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this the hit rate and the success rate is so much more and I the answer is yes the resume if crafted right really goes hand in hand you know you're kind of developing your power stories as you're crafting the resume for.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: This this particular.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we tell people is like this is the discussion guide for the conversation you want to have that right.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow I see that you tripled sales yeah if razzle by doing that so I tell me more about that.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well thank you so much for asking I want to write a round down for you to ask yeah I spoon fed it to you exactly.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly okay so you mentioned spar and I think most people would be familiar with some version of car par star.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right let me about spar well I like so it stands for situation problem action result.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I was taught the star method which is situation task acts in result and I don't want to be too.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Finicky or picky with acronyms but the reason I I say problem is that one of the things I see is people.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell their stories is that they don't create drama or tension in their stories and so when you say task well I was asked to build an inventory system you know.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the task if you want to create a problem you say we we were having major problems with inventory and I was asked to build an inventory system that had never been done before.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a lowly intern and they asked me to do it now I'm interested well how is Sam gonna solve this major problem.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I like the idea of creating it you know overall with this spar story what you're doing is you're taking them back to a specific point in time and honestly imagine playing a movie clip for them like pressing play on a movie clip that they can watch.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason I say that is that many people don't are not specific enough when they ask these questions tell me about a time you demonstrate a leadership oh I think leadership's great and I have an open door policy and I'm you know leader this year.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we're not answering the question here you need to say sure let me tell you about a specific exact time you know quote unquote play the the Disney movie that has a hero in it has drama has tension the hero did amazing things and then everything worked out amazingly well.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's why I focus on the spar because I want them to know this should be kind of a little bit of a dramatic story that you're telling.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that because people respond really really well to stories we remember stories yes one one thing.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought it's collected here for a set.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Is when somebody ask a very broad question Sam so you could I don't know if I'm going to give a good example but maybe it's you know your marketer and this is the social media as part of their marketing strategy and you know Sam tell me how you've worked with social media.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Oftentimes what we find with clients is they were asked a really broad question that could go in like a bunch of different directions.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: What they do is they try and give an encyclopedic answer to that really broad question because they don't want to leave anything out yes and we we would talk about asking a clarifying question.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you probably know where I'm going how do we how do we get people to kind of get to the question behind the question yeah great good you know when someone says tell me about.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know your experience as social media.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that is very broad and that could justify a sure yeah I have I have a fair amount of experience with social media are there any particular areas that you're most interested in that you'd like me to highlight.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know so you kind of can ask a question like that sometimes they're asking a question but they're actually just kind of they're actually just kind of bad at interviewing.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know hey are you a good leader.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay well yes I am those a matter of fact you know so sometimes we can actually guide the interview ourselves and take charge.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me about your leadership style is is you can reframe that question to be tell me about a time when you demonstrate a leadership you know if they say tell me about a time you demonstrate leadership you know that you got a sparse story coming up.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me about your leadership style I think you can still use the sparse format hey great yeah I'd be happy to in fact maybe one of the ways I can tell you about it is to give you an example of how I think I've demonstrated leadership and some of the principles so you're you're still this is an example of.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You're being asked a question about leadership and now it's your turn to kind of tweak it's almost think like a politician right you want to answer the question but you also kind of want to say what you want to say.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And so so I think sometimes when they ask big questions like that there are ways to recognize.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay I know what they're asking and I'm going to give them this story and I'm going to answer it in this way.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so one just thing that we have found successful is you know tell me about you know your experience working with data.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh okay do you know that can mean a few things Sam do you mean first party data third party data do you mean integrating datasets or actually predictive modeling of data.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So the way I just asked the question demonstrated my expertise that's great pillars of data and then they go oh well when I meant was.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah we can pick one and then this is so common is then they'll go.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: The reason I'm asking is we have a big problem with integrating multiple datasets.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah you've really been struggling and then they're going to go give you as you say just like in a job description.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to completely te it up for you.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to answer to be relative to what it is that they're solving for.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: That's great I love that now you've yeah now you've clarified and you have basically the playbook to where now you can tell your story but we've in and that story how it applies to this situation that they're dealing with.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly so um one of the things that you talk about in here is dealing with difficult if you're a tree Sam what would you be.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah you know and just like these weird which I think is also back to being a bad interviewer but.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah but like when you're just sort of thrown with these I mean it could be an illegal question just a wacky question.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah like how do you coach clients on what to do when it's like where the heck did that come from exactly.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Where possible.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to bring it back to your qualifications for the job where possible.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So if someone says you know if you if you were an animal what animal would you be you know.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is just a weird question part of it I think is there just trying to see if you can be poised in a situation like that and you said I'm interesting it's okay to pause you know.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I would be probably a golden retriever because I think I am kind of diligent and hardworking and I think I actually do a pretty good job of collaborating and getting along well with others you know.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So so I think if you can answer the question but then just provide a little bit of why behind it that's kind of related to the job.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a win on these on these types of questions sometimes it's just like a creative question like hey how many times can you how would you market this pen you know.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So they asked that and like alright well.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Here we go you know and I think you just kind of need to you know this is particularly for marketing and if you just kind of need to let loose alright well first of all could be a knife you know and it can be concealed and you can just stab someone right you know there whatever.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_02]: The second thing you know you can just kind of.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you can spend more than 10 merver and that's right exactly you know.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that if you can I think sometimes they just want you to.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: To just kind of play along you know and you can almost have a little bit of confidence in that alright stupid questions sounds like I can give some stupid answers to like let's go you know.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a little bit of that attitude as well with the legal questions that this one can be tricky because.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Um it's very contextual you want it's not fair for someone to ask in a legal question but at the same time.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes they don't even know they do it's an honest mistake and so it could it could be a mistake to say I'm excuse me that questions illegal you know or something like that or really put them on the spot.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though you're technically right you might get what you want but not get what you want you know I mean so so I think there's it there's a.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You know someone says where you from well okay that's I guess that kind of an illegal question you know but it's like to me I just say I'm from all the creak California.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what we do now I get it if this is me from California interviewing for an American job if you're from Dubai and there's some complications there like I totally understand this might be easier for me than some people.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The point that I'm trying to make is with a legal questions.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think first you want to be as nice as you can if someone says are you married and be like oh is there the first thing that's are you married oh yeah is there a.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Just curious is there a reason behind the questions or something you want to know or something like that and well just want for me yeah I just.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think actually don't need to be offensive I think that questions actually illegal or something like that you can't if you if you really feel like they're actually trying to pry on something.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That's unfair many times though they're just asking something that they kind of don't know is illegal and if it's not a big deal to you.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I just I coach my clients to answer it and just move on.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So so I think that back on wacky questions which is hopefully more common than illegal questions of course getting back to like knowing what your brand.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it like your political candidate which are platform for the main planks of you as a candidate and then exactly what you did with the golden retriever example.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it's like well good collaborating right you get along with a lot of different kinds of people you know I'm kind like whatever those this I knocked stuff over my.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, shed and I shed my hair I do shed a lot but when you can you've got a basis for it and it's not just like.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know and if we there's a poise element to that that I think that people are looking for I know like how many ping pong balls are in a 747 kind of think how many piano tuners or in Chicago.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they are looking for can you I don't care with the right answer is I care how you start to sort of think about something how you start to frame a problem out like that so you do need to kind of.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You know start to think about you know something like that but when you know your brand and then you can say if I was a tree or a flower or an animal or whatever yeah it does give you a basis.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: What is your feeling well okay when somebody with the end of the interview if it hasn't been what's hopefully it's been somewhat dialogue you know and has just been the interrogation you know kind of this parent child you know what other questions mom do you have.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know what questions you have for me what do you encourage people to start kind of asking back in the interview yeah great.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02]: There are there kind of two extremes to start off that I think we should avoid and this the first one is asking questions.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: For the sole purpose of impressing them.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason that I don't think you want to ask it just for that is sometimes that takes you into a space where you're kind of asking some question that's they don't really know the answer to or that makes you you're trying to look smart but they're like I don't know like.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know asking an HR screen or I noticed in your 10K financial statement that there was this line item what do you think about that and they're like well now they're on the spot that I go I don't know I'm an HR like what what you know I don't know.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But good job.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for making me feel dumb I do it.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah good job for reading the 10K I guess but thanks for making me feel stupid.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The other the other extreme would be on the other end like asking questions for just purely selfish reasons like hey like how how long would it take for me to get a raise here do you think like how fast can I get promoted or you know like.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Stuff let's be honest we all kind of want to know those questions they're the answers to those questions but but maybe ask some of that to like after you have an offer.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know or something like that so what I usually say is ask a question that you are genuinely interested in knowing that the person is uniquely qualified to answer that's related to the job and so you know hey.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk to me just talk to me about how you feel about the culture of your department is in what successful people are typically like what how do people excel here.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell me about the next three years and what things are most excited about and what things that are you know these and your biggest challenges.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Stuff like that where they're like oh you know interesting I'm talking about my business but it also applies to you because if you work on this business this is something you're going to eventually want to know and so those can be rich discussions.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And then just a housekeeping item.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And they say what questions you have for me and there's one minute left I always do a time check hey I do have some questions but I want to be respectful of your time.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: How are we looking here in and they'll say oh yeah I got a hard stop or they'll say no problem yeah I got time it's always a good thing to do.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about asking for specific feedback.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah good question I think this one depends on the vibe of the interview there's no set answer like there's been times when I've interviewed where I said hey just want to.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Get your sense on how you feel like I'd be a fit in this organization you know or opportunities that you think you know I.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think one way to do this also instead of asking for feedback because sometimes they're like well I don't want to give that feedback yet I want to digest.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of like one way to get at this is just to say I just want to make sure first of all I'm super interested in this and so I just want to make sure that I've been able to answer all your questions are there any concerns or things that I can clarify before we finish here.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a way for them maybe not to give feedback but at least an opportunity for them to kind of if there's any lingering doubts just be like well yeah there's well.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the one thing I would want to talk about is this or they'll say nope nope I'm good I mean it's up to them.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and I like doing something like that because it feels a little less confrontational than be like all right what would feedback you have.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well I'm glad that you jumped to that because I wasn't sure where you would go with this so you know there's there's a model that says basically Sam I've really enjoyed our time together I'm super pumped about this opportunity.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I'm curious from your side what gives you the most confidence based on what you've learned about me so far.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I would be good fit in as well.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh you've marketing great brands you know you've got big company experience you've worked in small environments you know how to be scrappy so yeah and I think you'd be a great culture fit.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah on the on the this is the salesperson in me on the other side are there any concerns or anything that would make you pause for my fit for this role.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I mean ideally look we I wish you had more automotive experience you know but.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Other than that you know I think you did great so just kind of on a relative basis based on on that you know how would you sort of met that out kind of the positive versus the automotive thing.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah on the street fair 1000 people here that know about cars where you you're uniquely qualified here you asked me a question I entered it.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Or could say I wish you had more automotive experience and you got I am so sorry at Ogil V. I was on our 14.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah that was on page two and a half of my resume but I've actually worked two years.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Great car business.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah as a salesperson and this is a sales call.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I've never viewed as it is a sales call.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah as I want to know the objections because you're thinking them.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And once had zoom window closets or that conference room door closes you're not going to get the feedback.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And what we hear from quite I don't think went pretty well like I got on with Sam you super nice guy and laughed a lot and you know I think it went pretty well.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah but but I didn't know with Sam really wishes I had more automotive experience because he's actually important.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And he doesn't want to take the time to teach me that industry and all the nuances of that and right yeah.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, went really well but I didn't get the job.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Well why do you think that is Sam I don't know because I thought we got on really well and he job as great.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_00]: She would me look like a great fit.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And so what ends up happening is that either there's a clarification actually I do have a lot of from my time at Ogil V.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I learned that did know that or you can reframe it on a relative basis how important is that against you know how you kind of think about fit for this role.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I really like it's really a burden Bob you know if I'm being honest with you yeah I've got a strong at least I know right at least I know more they can say again.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey it's number four out of five things is not the most important thing but it's a thing okay well at least I've got you have some notion of how important that was if I don't get the role.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that's great that I really like that this strikes me also is something that would really benefit with practice the way you solicit feedback.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: In a way that's not off putting but in a way that continues to enhance the conversation can be a very positive thing but I think practice is the key on this one.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be in your words that's the thing it's got to feel natural coming out of your mouth.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You talk about scripting earlier I like if you'll script it you're going to be awkward it's going to sound awkward and it's not going to be great but if you can say it in a way that sounds like you.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That it can be really effective for going out some stuff okay is there anything that we haven't talked about that this I would be completely remiss is your podcast host of not asking you.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay the only thing I would say the only thing I want to say is this.

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a weird economy right now in that unemployment figures look good you know politicians are saying hey everything's great.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm actually seeing particularly with more.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know of white colors the right the right turn anymore but just more executive kind of office type positions I'm seeing actually kind of a mixed back.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's companies that are holding back a little bit and just just some interesting trends that are hard to kind of tease out and I think there are people who are discouraged out there.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The one thing I would just want to say to everyone is that they will if you're looking for a job and your discards you will get a job.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm positive you will get a job it might not happen tomorrow as fast as you want but every single client I've worked with.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And just people I've observed we're like oh it's been so hard they wind up getting jobs and so that was just the one thing I just want to share with the listeners is that it's going to work out you're going to get a job.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so thank you for saying that you know I think that so much of this is around encouragement now what you're teaching are real skills so it's one thing to get pumped up and you got this tiger.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Right but like learning real skills like you're teaching people under which is phenomenal.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But there is this encouragement piece I wrote a post yesterday and I'm like then it said no doesn't mean never it just means not yet.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Right and that people need to hear that because there's so much I say the road to yes is living with no you can be so discouraging for people side just really appreciate it and you're right this is a particularly weird time.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That companies are very reluctant because they overheard which led all the way off and now they're being more cautious yes and they don't have enough talent acquisition people so the processes are slow, inclusion.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And people think it's them and like it's not you it's the process or the chaos whatever it really is but yeah appreciate so if people want to get.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I hate job interviews how do they and maybe reshape their mind on that how do they get a copy of the book yeah so it's on Amazon target Barnes and Noble's audible.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you have spot I just I have Spotify premiums kind of you can listen to it. It's included in premium I guess I didn't know it would be but it is I looked at it today so.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_02]: There's lots of different ways you can you can get it I did the audio book which is a fun kind of wild experience so it's my voice on it.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you you're the reader I was a reader right now in Amazon the audio book is a little bit cheaper than the actual print book but.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah that's that's the first way to get it and then the other way to this region is connection to the only dead you know I'm linked in all the time and that's.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the other thing that I'll share with people is please follow Sam on LinkedIn.

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You know like I said there's some dodgy advice out there then there's some great advice and Sam you're one of the folks who are out there shared really good advice with people.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And encouragement which you and I think is at least is important so.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I love the book thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for having me Bob such a great conversation.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome so again we really encourage you to get I hate job interviews by Sam Owens and follow him on LinkedIn and again I'm Bob Goodman with career club thank you so much for investing a few minutes of your day and I hope to see you on an upcoming Thursday at one o'clock Eastern so thanks again Sam appreciate it.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks okay cheers for my.