She Didn't Look Like a Veteran in Crisis. That Was the Problem.

[00:00:00] What drives so many veterans to the point where they want to kill themselves? Is this something that's due to a shared part of the veteran experience? Or are there a thousand and one, a million and one, a bazillion and one unique stories, unique paths that wind up at the same dark, tragic place?

[00:00:16] Well, we've talked to Zach, a Marine Corps veteran who shot himself in the head after coming home. And we talked to Lindsey Gray, a clinician who actually broke down what's going on in someone's brain when they're getting to the point where suicide becomes a rational choice for them in their own worldview in the moment. Well, today we're talking to Sam, another veteran who had a very, very different path through the military and a very, very different path post-service than Zach did, but found herself in the same dark place.

[00:00:47] As always, these are conversations by veterans for veterans, and no attempt has been made to either sensationalize or water down the stories of those involved. If you or someone you know is in crisis or needs help, please reach out to the National Suicide Crisis Line at 988. With that, let's get to Sam. Well, Sam, good afternoon and welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Good afternoon, Scott. I'm great. How are you? Happy to hear it. Doing well, thank you.

[00:01:15] Can you please introduce yourself in your own words for the audience? How are you doing, everybody? I'm Sam Hargrove, full name Samantha, United States Air Force veteran, medically retired in 07, one tour in Iraq, and I am an OIF veteran. Nice. Okay, so you were medically retired a year before I got out of high school. Cool.

[00:01:44] And I just turned 50. And I just turned 50. Congratulations. Hey, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. But I'm also a peer leader with Wounded Warrior Project as well as a national campaign team member. Nice. Yeah, and it's weird because that huge age difference, we were both part of the global war on terror. It's a whole interesting commentary just about that. That is so awesome.

[00:02:09] So you're actually probably, yeah, honestly, like, so you would have been in Iraq at the same time as some of my friends from high school who graduated ahead of me and, you know, enlisted right away and were deployed over there. So I'm not going to call around and see if they know you right now, but small world in that way.

[00:02:27] Definitely small world. Definitely. Yeah. It was so crazy because I had family members that I have a nephew that's probably three years after me. We ended up being stationed in Korea twice together. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's crazy. Small world. Very small world. When you break it down by branch location, years in service, it's amazing.

[00:02:57] But anyway, to the topic of the day, not quite as fun and cheery. You've got a very interesting story because from what I understand, you were an explosion in Iraq back in the day we were deployed there. And then fast forward a number of years, you were struggling with some stuff. And at one point, we're very seriously considering about to make a plan to immediately end your own life. Is that correct? Correct. Yeah. So that is correct. But so I was in an explosion in Iraq.

[00:03:26] I was in a morale tent at the time. And it took me a bunch of years to even get to the point where I even could remember what happened. And it was like, it took a lot of exposure therapy that you can get to that point, you know. But before then, it was like, I got to drink it heavy. You know what I'm saying?

[00:03:53] And ended up one day, my godson caught me in one of my rages because I went to seven different anger management classes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I went to seven different. Well qualified. I'm telling you. But nah, in all seriousness, it was just one of them situations. He ended up seeing me in one of my rages and punching holes in walls. And he got scared.

[00:04:19] And it was like, at that moment, I was going to, I left the house to actually, you know, commit self-harm or self-eliminate or, you know, whatever people want to call it these days. And as I was out the door, I decided, you know, that would cause more harm on my family.

[00:04:42] And so I had to think about my nieces, nephews, my godson, you know, so those things are what led me to not do it. But the next day, I immediately went and contacted my social worker through the VA and told him, if you don't help me, then I am going to definitely, you know, commit self-harm. Damn. And what year was this relative to when you got blown up in Iraq? Let's see.

[00:05:12] I went to Iraq in 03. And this was probably 07, 08, somewhere in there, 09. Okay. No, it was probably later than that. So year or two after you got medically retired? Yeah, it was years. I was dealing with it for years. After I was medically retired in 07. Yeah, so it had to be definitely later than that. I would say 2010.

[00:05:42] Because I was medically retired in 07. And I had came home. I stayed in Columbus, Georgia. I was born and raised here, which is where I am now. But it definitely, I was here at home and just going through one of my fits and my rages. And he ended up giving me an appointment in Batavia, New York. So I had to drive 18 hours through that ice storm.

[00:06:05] So 2009, that ice storm all the way up to Batavia, New York, which is right outside of Buffalo. Wow. So, you know, people know a lot more about this now. And the, you know, issues with the veteran community are much more in the public consciousness. But if we go back to, you know, 2009 or thereabouts, I got to imagine it may have been interesting.

[00:06:32] You were not in the combat MOS at the time you got blown up. You were in the Air Force, which, you know, people like me will very jokingly say is not even in the military. Sorry, all respect, but, you know, you're a black female going to get help at the VA. Like, were people surprised that, you know, someone with your demographic and military service profile was in that type of situation?

[00:06:59] Yeah, it's more of a running joke because people always holler, ain't nothing wrong with you. You know, so that's the running joke. And it's like, y'all don't understand. I did, you know, deploy to Iraq. These things did happen. You know, I know I wasn't in a combat career field, but my unit was combat communications at the time. So we were actually first in theater. So a lot of the things that we experienced, we were just the beginning of it.

[00:07:28] You know, there were people that were in my unit that actually assisted in the rescue of Jessica Lynch. So it's just, you know, like you said, being a black female and definitely in the Air Force or as they say, the chair force, chair force. You know, people just don't understand. I wasn't going to say it. I wasn't going to say it. Oh, no. We hear it all the time. We definitely hear it all the time. I don't take any offense to it because that's just how people are, you know.

[00:07:57] But I tell them all the time, it's like we definitely, you know, we go through some things. We go through a lot more than a lot of people know. And then being in a communications field, you know, they send you out there first, especially when you are attached to a combat communications unit or a red horse unit like CE.

[00:08:21] So you're out there with everybody pretty much building up the communication so we can actually communicate with each other or, you know, running the lines and everything. So those are the type of things where people don't understand that you're actually part of everything that really does happen. And you're kind of the beginning of it. Yeah. Do you know what the explosion that hit your location was from?

[00:08:49] Was it a rocket, ordinance, like something, fuel dump, blow up or something? I actually am not aware and I never did do the research to find out. And the crazy part was it was kind of it happened, blew over the morale tent, a lot of sand, a lot of sand. And at some point I hit my head.

[00:09:15] So it's kind of, you know, kind of fuzzy. Yeah. I never did. When did you start? I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, please. No, go ahead. I never did do the research to figure it out, to be honest with you. I got you. When did you start having, you know, noticeable behavior issues like, you know, rage, drinking, whatever else may have going on? Was it immediately after this explosion or was it sometime later?

[00:09:45] Did it compound over time? How did this progress? It actually compounded over time. I got back from Iraq and I was having a lot of issues within the unit. Like, couldn't nobody really say anything to me. I was very angry. And I keep elaborating that because of the fact that most people know me with the smile or the jokingness. But it was like I was always serious. And then the drinking head got worse.

[00:10:14] So it was like, but to me, you know, first of all, like I said, you're black. You're in the Air Force. You feel like you can't go into anybody, go to anyone because they already have those, you know, stigmas about you anyway. And if you're going somewhere, oh, you're just complaining, you know. So it was like just shut up and call up pretty much. Wow. Were you, was there any attempt made to get help while you were still in the military?

[00:10:42] I don't even know if back, you know, 2007 timeframe behavior health was even something that they had or talked about. No, there was no attempt to get help. I'm not even going to lie about it because in my mind, there's nothing wrong with me. You know, so I remember one time I got into it with a supervisor. And I talk about these things because it's just pattern really when you go back and think about it.

[00:11:05] But I got into it with one of my supervisors and I told my first sergeant at the time, if y'all don't do something about her, I'm going to kick her. I don't want to cuss on your channel, but you know. You can say whatever the hell you want. Fuck it. Let it fly. Let it fly. But I did say, if y'all don't do something about our old kicker ass. I did. And so he made me go to one of those anger management classes that I've been to. And he was like, and you will report.

[00:11:30] And so I had to take that, I think it was a four to six week course and come back with the certificate. And I had to show him that I had the certificate. I almost feel silly asking since you said you did this seven times, but did you actually learn anything useful in anger management? Was that helpful at all? At the time, no. But at the time, no.

[00:11:54] But as I got older and went on to different bases, because once I left that base, I was at Robbins Air Force Base at the time in the 54th Combat Con, by the way. But once I left Robbins and went to Korea, even though the drinking picked up even more, I got into playing sports. And I played basketball for the base team.

[00:12:19] And it was like, so things, you know, just I started thinking about different things that I had been through. And so I became more patient, you would say. More patient. Gotcha. However come a long space. Okay. So why did this more patient version of you do anger management six more times? That's where the however come comes in. However come a long space.

[00:12:49] I was pretty much a hair trigger. You know, there was certain things that would trigger me out of nowhere. I couldn't explain it. I didn't know why. You know, but I punched holes. I think I had to repair just about every place I was running at that time because I was punching holes everywhere I lived in the wall. I still have cuts on my hand from it. And were you, you know, anger than average or more assertive, aggressive person anyway prior to the explosion?

[00:13:18] Or was this a complete personality change for you? A complete personality change. Okay. What was it like when you went home to your family and got out? Well, when I went home to my family, let's just say I no longer enjoyed 4th of July. So while everyone was outside enjoying fireworks, I was in the house with headphones on in a corner somewhere.

[00:13:43] However, when it rains, I can't stand thunder and lightning even to this day. But when it rains and even now, I'm a little shaky about it, sorry. But thunder and lightning makes me jump with thunder, makes me jump out of my sleep. And I remember one time I was in the bed asleep and it hit so hard. I jumped up without a thought and jumped in the closet looking for cover. Just out of nowhere.

[00:14:12] So it became worse over time. Gotcha. And you mentioned nieces and nephews, but did you have a husband or partner? Do you have any kids of your own? I don't have any biological kids of my own. And definitely not then. I was definitely single. Okay. So when you're going through all this, you know, obviously you got to a point where you decided things would be better if I just wasn't here.

[00:14:41] Was that a decision you made because you couldn't see things getting better or you didn't want to be burdened to other people? Like in your mind, was this just a knee-jerk reaction or had you rationalized it in some way? So when I got to, you mean when I got to the point of getting help? Yeah. Well, yeah, the day you almost, you know, took a hard turn with the vehicle to end it. And then afterwards decided to get help, yeah.

[00:15:10] So at that time I had a partner and it had got to the point where, you know, I guess that's why my godson is my partner's son, my ex-partner's son. But it just got to the point where, you know, I found myself to be a danger, not only to myself, but to others.

[00:15:37] So that's why I was like, I don't want anybody dealing with this. I don't want to deal with it. And it was like, I have to end it. And unfortunately, that was my thought. I was going to crash into that tree. But in the midst of out there, because it was raining at the time, in the midst of being out in the street, it was just like all the flashes came back. Because my nieces and nephews and my godson were really my everything.

[00:16:04] Like the older people, I felt like they can get over it. But I just didn't want to bring them to, you know, to that because I felt like they were just too special, you know, more special than the older people. So, yeah. And this decision was, this doesn't sound like at least that this was something like you had thought through in advance and planned out. It seemed like this was a knee-jerk reaction in a moment of crisis. This is exactly what it was going to be. It was like, I just didn't want to deal with it anymore.

[00:16:34] And I didn't want anybody else dealing with my anger and my, me being a threat to society. That's how I felt. I felt as if I was a threat to society. Gotcha. So, when you decided to reach out and get help, you know, I guess what was scarier, the thought of ending your life or the thought of actually asking for help from the VA? The scariest was asking for help because I didn't want to seem like a punk.

[00:17:02] I didn't want to seem like a burden to anybody and I didn't want to put that weight on anybody's shoulder. But I needed it. So, I had to go out and find that help. And the VA, like I said, they were there to guide me and push me for the first step forward. But, you know, of course, there's other programs out there as well that also helped. So, do you think when you went to the VA that what they did for you was actually useful?

[00:17:30] Because I have to imagine they must have tried something that didn't come up during anger management. Well, to be honest with you, the VA did what they could, you know. So, but like I said, there's other programs out there, like Wonder Warrior Project. So, I deal with Wounded Warrior Project and the Warrior Care Network because I feel like even though the VA did the initial work,

[00:17:54] Wonder Warrior Project and Warrior Care Network, they were able to do the more follow-up part, you know what I'm saying? Because I was able to get a lot more done via the Warrior Care Network than I did the VA and see. And I hate to put it that way, but, you know, the VA give you that initial, we're going to give you that push, you know.

[00:18:20] But I have a thing about follow-up and I'm just one of them people I need to follow up. So, check in on me. Let's see how we're doing. So, I was able to go to the Emory Healthcare Veterans Program via the Warrior Care Network. Wow. So, what did you, what treatment did you get when you went to Emory through the Warrior Care Network with the Wounded Warrior Project? So, that was actually a one-week program.

[00:18:50] One week. Yeah, I believe it was a one-week program. It's inpatient. But, it was like, they bring you up there and, it was one week or two weeks. I don't remember exactly how many weeks, I'm sorry. But, but they, they bring you up to Emory and you go through a lot of therapy. You have psychologists there. You, it's a group of maybe six of you.

[00:19:21] And, I'm sorry about that. It's a group of maybe six of you. They came out of nowhere. I don't even know how they got through. So, please apologize. Can we cut that part? But, it's a group of maybe. We can use another thing. Thank you. It's a group of maybe six of you, which actually, I actually keep up with everyone still to this day. And, you all go through some, some forms of therapy. We did exposure therapy.

[00:19:51] That was frightening, to say the least. Because the first, the first day you go in there, you're starting. You know, I did some one-on-one therapy with a psychiatrist, psychologist. And, I think some other people might have did other things. But, for me, you know, it was just one of those, like this, the exposure therapy.

[00:20:17] I was able to focus on what exactly happened in Iraq. And, how did it make me feel? And, what did I want, you know, for my future or whatever. So, that was kind of awesome. Yeah. How long did it take for you to start seeing a meaningful improvement in your quality of life as you started getting care?

[00:20:45] Um, I challenged myself to everything I do. So, I would say, after the Emory program, to be honest with you, after the Emory program, everything just looked different for me. It was like, because before I went to that program, my whole thing was, I am going to focus on me. I have to challenge me to want better.

[00:21:09] And, so, because I challenged myself, I was able to be like, okay, now when you get done with this program, you have to continue with other stuff. So, I've done other programs inside a Wounded Warrior project, like a Project Odyssey and Soldier Rides, that also helped me along the healing journey as well. Okay. So, okay. Now, you mentioned you keep in touch with everyone you went through that program with Emory with.

[00:21:35] You know, how does that compare to how you kept in touch with people that you served in the military with? They're still my sisters and brothers, and we still communicate to this day. My family just surprised me with a birthday party on the 15th of August, because my birthday just passed. Nice. And a few of them actually flew in from wherever they were and came to that party. Nice. Yeah. So, it's the people that I've been close with, they're still there.

[00:22:05] And unfortunately, I have lost a few, some of them to self-harm. But, you know, for the ones of us that are still around, we still communicate every chance we get. You know, I had a friend of mine who killed himself when we got back from Afghanistan. And I know, like, I'm still mad at him about that. Oh, yeah.

[00:22:27] So, I'm just curious, you know, you as a veteran, when you've lost someone to suicide in your circle, self-harm, whatever you want to call it, how do you feel about it with your understanding and perspective of what they may have been going through? Um, I always ask people, why don't you talk to me?

[00:22:49] And the only reason I ask that question is because being a peer leader, I'm able to be there and try to have a conversation about whatever. So, I don't want to talk you down because I don't feel like that's my right. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a licensed professional. That's not my job. But I do want to know what you're going through and how you feel because it might be something that I can relate to and I can talk to you about how I went through it.

[00:23:19] You know, um, for those that I have lost, I, I'm not mad at them. I just hurt for them and their family, you know, because it's like you had kids or, and now your kid has to deal with those type things. And that was one of the things that I had to remind myself of, like I said, because I didn't want to send my, my nieces, nephews and God, well, I'm just going to send my family.

[00:23:48] I didn't want to send my family through that. Yeah. And so, I don't think, and, and unfortunately, I just lost an uncle in November to suicide. So, but, and I've talked to my uncle on many occasions, but he was just, he didn't want to get help at all, you know, and that hurts my cousin a lot. So, it's like, I try to be there for her to let her know he wasn't weak. He just couldn't fight anymore.

[00:24:17] He couldn't fight the demons anymore. Yeah. And so, as much as I try to let her know that he wasn't alone, you know what I'm saying? So, I just try to get to that point. Yeah. You know, one thing a friend of mine were talking about once, about, you know, leaving certain stuff behind, one of the things we came up with is like, it's actually really hard to say goodbye to your demons when at a certain point in your life, they were the best friends you ever had. Right.

[00:24:46] And I feel like that's how, you know, a lot of us think, you know, like sometimes that definitely, I'm sorry, but that's a bottle of water, sorry. Oh, you're good. But I feel like that's definitely how it is a lot of the times. It's like, you can't fight the demons and sometimes people just feel like they can't win. And unfortunately, I try to let people, especially that I know, that you can win, that there are other options, but sometimes it just doesn't go over. Yeah.

[00:25:16] Well, that was, Sarah, 2009 we're benchmarking, so that was almost two decades ago now. You know, you're 50 years old, looking awesome. Thank you. And I got to say, like, how happy are you with the quality of life that you have now or is there stuff that you're still working on? I work on myself every day. I'm happy with my life, don't get me wrong, but I still work on myself every day and I still go through my depression bouts and my high anxiety.

[00:25:44] All these things are still true to this day, but I do see my therapist every two weeks. There's no ifs, ands, and buts about it. If I'm going through something very traumatic, like when I spoke about my uncle, I contact her and ask, can I get an emergency appointment? I also reach out to, I have to say, I do reach out to Wounded Warrior Project and say, hey, I'm going through whatever. Can you get me into a Project Odyssey? You know, and they'll be like, what's going on?

[00:26:14] You know, they ask me sometimes, what's going on, Sam? I'm not going to lie, they do. And I tell them, you know, hey, this is how I'm feeling. I'm not in the right head space right now. I need to, you know, I need to go do an odyssey. I need to sit down with a group or whatever. But my therapist, if she can't get me in, I talk to, I just talk to whoever I can. I have to always make sure that there are people around me to be able to ground me in some shape or form. Yeah.

[00:26:43] You know, for folks listening to this who might be going through some stuff of their own, or they see a family member who's a veteran and they know something's off, but they're not quite sure how to approach it. You know, what resources or help would you recommend they look at pursuing? I would say, excuse me, sorry about that. I would say, honestly, if you are an alumni with Wounded Warrior Project, reach out.

[00:27:12] Reach out to your therapist because I'm sure if you have one, please reach out to your therapist. Contact the VA. The VA is a good stepping stone. Wounded Warrior Project, that resource center has multiple resources. My stepdaughter at the time was going through postpartum, and they were able to set her up with a therapist, and I think she had like seven free sessions.

[00:27:44] So these are things that I know for a fact Wounded Warrior Project offers, you know, not only you, but your family as well. So just different. Yeah, definitely Wounded Warrior Project. Definitely. If you're not an alumni, please sign up. I'll always know you're not alone. You have a friend out there somewhere that's probably going through something or that has been through something.

[00:28:11] So you have to always check on what they say. Check on your happy friends. Check on your happy friends. I like that. Check on your happy friends. Some of them are just good fakers. Exactly. Exactly. Well, really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. But before we go, is there anything that I haven't asked you about yet that I should have asked you about? I would say ask me anything you want. My life is an open book.

[00:28:40] So if you ever want to ask me about anything, continue to reach out. I'm always here. I'm always open. I get up. I have friends that call me at three o'clock in the morning because they're going through stuff. Like I said, I'm also a peer leader. So I take care of everybody, you know, that I can. But that's my way of giving back because I would say that Wounded Warrior Project has given so much to me.

[00:29:07] And being an ENCT member and a peer leader and being able to help others, especially doing things like this, this is important to me because I've been there. I've been in people's shoes. And so I always want to let people know that they're not alone and that there are others out there that will help in some way, shape or form. So Resource Center with Wounded Warrior Project, your local DAV or VA or, you know, vet center, anything.

[00:29:37] Just reach out because I really would like for everyone just to continue to be here. You know, I know we done fought the long fight. Let's continue to fight. All said. Well, thank you so much, Sam. Really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. I appreciate you, Scott, so much. Thank you for watching part three of the series. Part four will be published this Sunday.

[00:30:00] And we're talking to Joe, a fellow Green Beret who was as successful as successful could be until the day and the moment he wasn't. Looking forward to seeing you there. And if you or someone you know needs help, please reach out to the National Suicide Crisis Line at 988. Thank you.