#HRTechChat: Navigating the 2025 Job Market with Lynn Hurley

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, this is Dylan Taggart with another HR TechChat. I'm here with Lynn Hurley. Lynn is an accomplished HR leader. She's had some significant roles at top tier organizations and she's focused on creating better employee experiences for organizations she served. Lynn, thanks so much for joining me. Lynn Hurley, 3Sq. Hi, Dylan. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

[00:00:22] Yeah, great to have you. And so just to dive right into it, what's your kind of view on the job market landscape right now? Obviously, there's a lot going on at the beginning of 2025. And has that impacted anything? But aside from that, or maybe in concert with that, how are things looking out there?

[00:00:45] I think that's the question on a lot of people's brains at the moment, Dylan. I definitely know there's a ton of data coming out at us every day in the news or other sources of world economics.

[00:01:00] And, you know, given the events of 2024 with the presidential election and now a new president coming in and definitely having some interesting dynamics at play, whether you're for it or not, the impact that it's having on the job market is extensive.

[00:01:23] And I think it's not even just from a direct response, but also indirect response to some of these activities. So what do I mean by that? I think that there's definitely a psychology of wait and see that's been taking place with businesses that may have otherwise opened up their wallet and gone out and put new roles out there in the market.

[00:01:48] And they're more conservative or maybe just saying, let's hold back a little bit while we wait to see how some of these things pan out in the economy at the moment. I also think that AI is definitely a disruptor. And that's another wait and see for some businesses where they're saying, you know what, let's hang in there a minute and give some of this time to settle down so we can see what direction we really want to play in.

[00:02:15] And that's showing up for us in some of the data that has just come out. Even I've been looking. This is not a plug. I do not get paid. But the economic graph on LinkedIn, it really breaks it down by industry through December 2024. And everything is down, some down in double digits. The only industries that are actually up and there's only two really interestingly.

[00:02:43] One is financial services. That is up 3.9 percent. And the other, which should not be any surprise at all, is technology, information and media. And so that is up by 4.9 percent. And so when you're looking at some of these shifts that we're seeing, I do think that we're going to see some better news going into 2025.

[00:03:10] But right now things are still really, you know, the ambiguity is getting people to be a bit more conservative. That makes a lot of sense. In terms of the wait and see kind of mindset of these companies, what are they waiting for in particular? Are they just waiting for, are they waiting to go back to the status quo? Are they expecting a stock, like an economic boom or something? Yeah, there's a lot of eyes on the economy.

[00:03:36] And I think that there are the information that comes out in Q1. You know, we're watching earnings reports for a lot of different organizations right now come through. And that will give some signaling of how they're 2024 wrapped up, but then also how they're planning to proceed going into 2025.

[00:03:56] And when you look at those earnings reports coupled with some of the government, frankly, you know, impacting tariffs and other economic dependencies, you're going to have a bit of uncertainty there for a lot of CEOs, CFOs and leadership teams.

[00:04:18] And so really it's kind of waiting to see at least through the first quarter of how some of that will shake out before they go and start really hiring or placing bets in certain areas. Now, we did see also some downsizing. And so I do think there's a lot of folks out there in the labor pool as well. And that is also an opportunity for some of these organizations.

[00:04:42] The ones that are out there hiring are probably going to get a really good deal if they are doing that right now. Yeah, it's great for the employer right now, I guess. A buyer's market, for sure. And typically how long, and obviously this, there may not be information on this, but typically how long does this last when this happens?

[00:05:06] Because obviously it's not the first time, you know, people have felt this way, but does it usually last a whole year or does it kind of clear up in a couple of months? I would say this is unforeseen territory that we're in right now. I think, you know, and this is just my opinion. This is just me living it out and seeing and talking to a lot of recruiters. Recruiters are a huge indicator of information from my perspective. And I talk to a lot of them.

[00:05:31] And I, you know, just feel that right now, given some of the downsizing activities, the hiring is really going to be slow to recover. I mean, you're looking at some, oh gosh, some of these numbers and the percentage down that are just in this one LinkedIn report. And this is not indicative of everything. This is one data source. But some of these double digits, you know, the decreases is really significant.

[00:06:00] So to just even get back over that hump and then increase it from there is going to take some doing. And then we've also got to figure out with the new technology what the right capabilities and skills are going to be. And then a lot of people have turned to different kinds of work, right? So it's not your traditional full-time person anymore. You can have a fractured working experience where you have multiple employers and you're working part-time for several of them.

[00:06:28] And so there's a lot of different things that are out there right now. It's a really interesting and unique situation that I think could last at least the end of this quarter and hopefully not much longer. Because I do think that we need to get back into a solid economy or it could possibly get worse. For sure. For sure. And you mentioned recruiters in there. And I kind of want to ask you a little bit about that.

[00:06:57] Recruiters are a big part of branding and public perception for a company. Huge. So how can good and bad recruiting impact that? Yeah, I think it's such a key point. And it's one that's hard to quantify all the time for business areas. And so they're not as aggressively going to target investing necessarily in the candidate and employee experience.

[00:07:24] But candidate experience in particular, I feel very strongly about and have for many years. And I think it's only going to get more intensively important for an employee to really invest in what they want to project out there. And how do they maintain that branding from an employer of choice perspective? And what do I mean by that?

[00:07:51] It's saying, okay, how are we going to ensure that we're getting really the right talent that we need in the right role at the right time? Because, yes, there can be a ton of people out there in the market. But the skill sets that are going to be incredibly critical to your business's ability to differentiate itself and to have that competitive edge, being able to really hone in on what those candidates want and ensure that you're attracting them in the right ways is going to be really, really valuable.

[00:08:20] And I think I liken it to marketing, right? So an organization, you would never let your sales force go out into the world without a proper marketing plan. This is the same thing. Recruiters, they're all branders. They're all selling an organization at some point in time. You're never going to encounter a world where they never have to sell an organization to a candidate. That is not ever going to happen.

[00:08:47] And it's saying, how do we get above all of the different competitors out there and get these candidates, these particular candidates with these particular skill sets into our fold? And that's a really important, I think, ability for a winning organization to have. It makes a lot of sense.

[00:09:12] And I've been hearing that more and more as roles become, well, I guess as the job market becomes more diverse, people's roles become more and more specialized. And companies need those specialized people, especially when it comes to technology. And I've been hearing more and more that recruiters who go after these people need to be like marketers, like salespeople, because they are selling the company.

[00:09:38] And they can't just be a wait and see who comes to me kind of situation. It needs to be more of a, this is who we need. We're going to go after them, like you would with a sales situation. Yeah. And there's two components to that, really, right? One is having that solid EVP. So an employee value proposition is critical. And that doesn't mean that it won't ever change or that you can't be additive with your employee value proposition. It should be agile to a degree.

[00:10:08] But there should be like a core fundamental set of values that you're bringing to the table that everyone can clearly articulate. This should not be difficult, right? Like if I ask anybody working at company A, what keeps you there? Why is this company meaningful? What is the value to employees that this organization brings to the table? They should be able to tell you. And most people are not able to do that. And so there's an opportunity there for strong EVP.

[00:10:37] The second area that I would focus on is technical capability within your recruitment team. Really train these people and treat them like gold. Because oftentimes recruitment will not be considered as valuable an asset to an organization as they really, really are.

[00:10:56] And I think if they have a really solid technical understanding of the business, if they're feeling very valued within the employee that they're serving, they're going to do everything in their power to ensure that the best talent gets in the door. And that ultimately is going to help everyone's bottom line. So in terms of how that technology is being used, misused, or underutilized in the hiring process, what to you is a good best case scenario?

[00:11:26] Yeah. And it's a really interesting time for that, right? So AI and how that's coming about and being utilized in the sourcing process. And I feel like in sourcing, that's fine, right? So we should be able to help whittle down candidates. And it should be actually a fairer process if technology is helping us do this, in theory, right? There are a lot of different perspectives on that statement.

[00:11:56] And I think it's important to consider specifically what roles we're looking at. And especially when we're looking at technical capability versus soft skills. So all day long, I would say leverage your AI to at least do a first round sourcing, assist with sourcing, et cetera. Nothing in my book is going to really replace having an actual conversation with a recruiter, right?

[00:12:22] So AI can help find and identify, but then assessment needs to happen. And critical thinking is going to be more important ever than ever to really whittle down where that top talent is. And I think that is where recruiters come in and shine. And they have their process. And they know what is going to work and what is going to help them. And there are new ways of assessing coming out as well through AI.

[00:12:49] And, you know, it's good to pilot some of those maybe and potentially look at them because we want to keep innovation. We don't want to stymie the ability for us to go forward and be progressive in this space. Competitive edge is everything. And I've worked with some really cool AI tools that I'm obsessed with. But then on the flip side of it, we need those critical thinking skills to be able to assess and say, Okay, we've got this pool of talent here.

[00:13:17] What is the direction that we really need to be headed in? And where is the best talent going to come from? And that is really done by a well-heeled recruiter. What have been some of the better technology platforms you've used in this regard? If you feel comfortable talking about that. Yeah, I can give you a shout out. The checks will be coming in next week. I know. I'm waiting for my royalty check. Your royalty check.

[00:13:49] So go and visit Eightfold. Josh Burson just did a really cool connection with Eightfold. They are incredible in the space. I've launched them most recently at a very large global organization. And I can't say enough good things about the ease of use with the system workday that's already there, with LinkedIn, with other plug and play things, which really helped.

[00:14:18] Because, you know, the change management of this stuff for your current employee base is a big deal. And also, you want to be able to learn more about your internal employee base as well. And this really facilitated that. Prior to this as an option, I would say your external LinkedIn is probably going to be your best bet on getting an understanding and good data on what capabilities you currently have in your own organization. And that's an external website.

[00:14:48] Like, that's kind of bananas, right? But this really has broadened the playing field of an internal organization being able to do what they need to do to assess the capabilities they currently have quickly, real time. It also facilitates learning plans. It facilitates career mapping. It facilitates a whole host of things. And it is so user friendly. Our employees loved it.

[00:15:15] At first, they were kind of, oh, here comes another HR initiative. And they're a little bit done with those. And I get that. I get that. It hasn't been fun over in this function for a minute. But rolling this out was one of the most exciting and fun experiences I've had in a long time because it allowed us to meet those eye rolls with some, just give it a shot. And I got to tell you, I just checked in.

[00:15:44] And the stats of people who've actually gone in and just done their profile, it's over 80% of the entire organization. And this is, you know, 30,000 people globally. So it's a really, really great, great tool. And it's only as good if you can get people to use it, right? You've got to be able to get people to use it. You've got to get them in there. And this Eightfold has done a great job of understanding that and meeting that challenge.

[00:16:15] Hey, this is William Tincup. And I'd like to talk to you a little bit about Practitioner Corner Podcast. It's a wonderful podcast about the journey, the paths of how practitioners, both HR and TA, kind of go from high school, college, all the way to where they are right now. Some of the things that they've learned, how they've been successful, people that thrive around them, et cetera. It's a fun podcast. You'll love it. You'll learn from it. Subscribe to it. Thanks.

[00:17:18] All right. So that's good to hear. And in terms of, you know, you mentioned LinkedIn, which kind of brings me to my next question. You know, the role of networking in the job search, something I despise doing, but I think most people probably do. Hate it.

[00:17:36] But obviously, you know, the job market plays a big role in this, but, you know, posting jobs online and, you know, candidate experience versus networking, you know, because it's such a tight job market and there are, you know, fewer roles to actually get it. You know, fewer roles for a lot of people at this point in time.

[00:18:04] Does job post, do job postings and applying to jobs online and candidate experience coupled in with that? Has that all just become a bit of a formality? Because at this point in time, who you know is really more important than a great experience because it's a, you know, employer's market in terms of hiring. Yeah, I think that that's the right way to put it, Dylan, is that it's at a point in time in this particular market.

[00:18:33] I, you know, I think that there is a lot of value to having a solid network right now. And it's, it's the only way that I've experienced being able to find another opportunity, opening a door, having a conversation, getting a next conversation. I will say in prior markets, it wasn't that difficult. It wasn't that difficult.

[00:19:02] And I, I think that there was more of an ability to go and, you know, look at a role and identify the candidate through the application process. Today, that is not happening.

[00:19:18] When you're looking at some of these numbers across different industries of the downsizing that's happened, you're just not going to see, you know, applying to a job as effective as people who know you, who trust you. And that trust is, is important, right? It goes a long way. And I, I know people always say, and you just mentioned it, Dylan, it's like, who loves this stuff?

[00:19:48] Well, some people love it. And they're very, very good at it. And they're very savvy. For those of us that are not as comfortable with it, it is something that we need to do even when we have a job, because you're going to need that for the moment when you do not have a job. So it is almost like networking insurance. And it's important to just get out there and continue to make people aware of, hey, I'm here. This is what I'm doing.

[00:20:18] How are you doing? And, and really be interested in and available for what they need as well and make it that two way street. Because all of a sudden, when you're the one looking for a job, and you're the one who needs the help, it feels very one sided networking. And so it's important to build those relationships and find your people and really get out there and do that. And especially the more senior you get, the harder it will be.

[00:20:47] Roles and more senior levels are typically, some aren't even posted. Right. And some are mostly done through search agencies. And then others are just basically who you know, and understanding if there's an opportunity to come in because there's a culture fit. So culture is going to become more and more important.

[00:21:11] And that trust, that network is going to really feed into those capabilities, those opportunities opening themselves up for a job seeker. It's just not going to be the posting. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. While networking has always played a role in times like these, it's essentially almost the only way to get a job unless you're highly, highly, highly specialized in something. And very unique and very, you know, but.

[00:21:39] Unless you're finding technology information and media. It's true. Yeah. It's a booming market right now. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. For sure. But what kind of, it kind of comes to head into conflict though with the, with two things. One, with candidate experience, because you're kind of throwing that out the window just to, you're kind of skipping that step. But also with any DEI initiatives that may have been in place.

[00:22:07] And I, while I know that's kind of going out of fat, out of style right now. Because you're networking into a pool of people, people, you know, the chances of you finding someone who is outside of that box becomes more unlikely. So does that, does that cancel out any investments in that, in those two areas? It's a really great question because it's kind of like, well, why would I invest in candidate experience if everything is being done by networking?

[00:22:36] And the reason is that this is not always going to be the situation. And frankly, you want your retention, right? Your retention numbers are going to matter. So this isn't just about front of the house and it's about candidate and employee experience. They're one in the same. Frankly, you should not be an authentic when you're describing your experience of your employees and creating an experience for your candidates. They should be really on the same page.

[00:23:02] And retention is going to be critical, critical because so many people are purging their talent. The people that are remaining are probably going to end up doing even more work. They're going to be going through change. They're going to feel burdened. There's some tax here somewhere. The opportunity cost of the situation isn't just going to dissolve. And so it's really important to not lose sight of the bigger picture.

[00:23:29] And I think that's an easy thing for us to do and kind of say, oh, you know what? We can take our foot off the gas a little bit here because it is such a buyer's market. You know, it's kind of like housing, right? You can say, ah, I don't have to change my filters and, you know, get my house taken care of because anybody's going to want to buy this house in this market. The markets change and things evolve. And what people want is not stagnant.

[00:23:57] And so you really don't want to take your foot off the gas because you could put yourself in an even bigger hole from a competitive perspective than you've ever wanted to be. And so I do think that it is important to keep those things in mind. You still want to create dynamic experiences. You still want to differentiate yourself and be competitive when you're creating these experiences. DEI was an interesting comment, right? Right.

[00:24:23] I'm really interested to see what's going to happen with this because while some organizations who could believe Target, right, made moves and said we're going to dissolve our DEI efforts, others are really standing firm and coming together on this issue. And so I don't think it's over and done. I think that there's change in the system and that's totally fair because change is always going to happen.

[00:24:50] But the reaction to some of this and how that will impact, you know, you could be hurting your entire candidate base or your current employee base by cutting some of these initiatives without even really thinking that through. And so it'll be interesting to see how that all plays out. It's early days yet.

[00:25:14] Yeah, I feel like with the DEI stuff, it's for some companies, you know, just really shown. But they're not really in any of this for the any of this, any of this for the ideology. Their only ideology is profit. So it's it's going to be whatever gets them ahead. And if they have to say things in them while they're trendy, they're going to say things while they're trendy. Exactly.

[00:25:41] It's not really the greatest world to live in, but it shouldn't be surprising to anyone, I guess. But I guess we'll see what's the next. But now they're on the bandwagon of we're cutting it off and then we'll see when the next trend comes around, they're going to pick it up. It's just people that have, you know, they're just filling their identity with whatever is the hottest thing on the shelf. And notice this goes back to technology information and media on the up. They're just getting clickbait stories left and right here.

[00:26:09] And so it's getting harder and harder for people, I think, to really know what's actually happening versus what's trending. And I think, you know, looking at data and understanding your source is more important now than ever before, especially when it comes to some of this this information, because I mean, gosh, if you read it, it's like DEI is over.

[00:26:30] And then I'm seeing this whole upswell in social media and all of these other places of, you know, boycotting campaigns and other, you know, elements of quit your job at this place. We're going to leverage you over here. You know, it's really interesting to see how that's going to come out in earnings next quarter. For sure.

[00:26:56] So one last question before I wrap this up, something that's been on everyone's mind. What is up with ghosting in the application process? Because I think everyone's kind of been there and it's becoming more ubiquitous and becoming almost, dare I say, the norm. To ghost someone and have poor communication.

[00:27:20] How did we get here and how do we change it or is it not going to change? And this is just the new normal. It's such a good question. And it's trendy, Dylan. It's super trendy. I think you can almost argue that they took a tip from the dating scene and applied it to hiring. You know, getting ghosted by a recruiter is a badge of honor that many of us wear.

[00:27:46] And I think it's just come down to a couple of things. But really, recruiters, as I said before, you know, a lot of times they're getting overwhelmed. It's just an overwhelming market. A lot of organizations will outsource their recruitment functions.

[00:28:06] So the ability for the recruiter to directly care and tie in with that employer and that organization is limited at best. And so they don't really feel that connection to the candidate experience and creating that candidate experience that another, you know, in-house recruiter might feel. Now, that's not to say that my outsourced recruitment teams, my RPOs are bad. I think they're phenomenal.

[00:28:33] I just think that you're not going to have the same strength of I need to, you know, be aware of the branding of the organization that I'm working on behalf of rather than directly for. I think that ghosting a candidate happens, you know, not necessarily on a bad intention from a recruiter perspective. As a former recruiter, I can tell you it is hard. It is hard to get back to every single person.

[00:29:03] And I mean, you know this, Dylan. Sometimes you'll even get that automated follow-up email. I don't even know that that's better. So a lot of people are kind of sick of those. It's what is the right kind of follow-up for the candidate? Well, in my opinion, I would get creative. I would punt this over to marketing, right, and have them figure out something that you can do.

[00:29:28] And it's even not just necessarily looking at it as follow-up but engagement. You know, hey, maybe there's a section of candidates that didn't proceed now, but we definitely want to engage with them still. This is kind of akin to like an alumni network, right? Like how organizations are going to continue to interact with interested people on the peripheral but may know somebody. And why should, like the what's in it for me, why should we care?

[00:29:58] Why do I care about, you know, all of these candidates that applied? If 1,000 candidates applied, only one could get the job. Why do I care about the other 999 people? Well, the answer is exactly because why we care about Glassdoor, Yelp, Google Reviews, all of these other things that we're so intensely monitoring from a marketing perspective. They matter.

[00:30:21] What people are saying about your organization and how they're talking about their interview experience and how they're talking about their lack of ever having engagement from the company ever again, that can make or break some other people and their decision making. And so I think it's important to pay attention to it. Don't ghost your ghosting because you really want to be able to come up with some sort of plan on what's right for your organization and how you're going to address that.

[00:30:49] But don't just run away from it because it will come back to haunt you. Ha, ha, ha. Well, with that, thank you so much for joining me today and not ghosting me. And yeah, where can people find you if they're interested in reaching out? I mean, I'm just going to say I'm on LinkedIn. It's definitely a hot time on LinkedIn. I'm on there all the time.

[00:31:18] I'm even the nerd that plays the new LinkedIn games. So, yeah, they're quite fun. But, you know, I'm always open to meeting new people and having conversations with other, you know, folks who are interested in these topics. So don't hesitate to reach out. Awesome. Well, Lynn, thanks so much for joining me. And thanks, everyone, for tuning in. I'll see you next time. Have a good one. Bye.