The Not-So-Merry-Go-Round of the Workaround

[00:00:06] Hey, winos! Welcome back to Whine with HR. Today, we are talking about that one co-worker that we have all had, sometimes several co-workers, who we have to work around because they either can't or won't do their job.

[00:00:25] So, in this episode, we are going to be discussing why that's a problem and how you can get off the merry-go-round or not-so-merry-go-round of the workaround, even if leadership won't help you in that process. But you know what happens before we get into our WHINE, so let's check in on what we're drinking today. Trish?

[00:00:52] I, like you, am stuck in a phase. I am drinking a Pinot Noir. I know everyone is shocked by that. Yes, yes. This one is a 2022 from Jay Vineyards and Winery.

[00:01:12] This particular one, so I guess apparently they have a, their flagship was in the Russian River Valley and then they also have several from, I forget the three California places where they source their grapes from, but it's a multi-sourced grape in California.

[00:01:35] And so this one, I really, really like it so far. We're talking my favorite. We have the deep red raspberry cherry. There's even a little bit of cola in this one, which is really interesting. Definitely some plum. And I still haven't, I need to taste what boysenberry tastes like.

[00:02:00] I have heard of it, you know, a ton since we were kids probably, but I'm not really sure what that taste is. So I need to, to figure that out, but really, really nice bottle. Only around 20 to $30, depending on where you are. But yeah, I was a pretty big fan of this one. What did you say the brand name was? It's just a simple J. So it's Jay Vineyards and Winery. Okay.

[00:02:30] Boysenberry, the only thing that I have to relate to that is, remember TCBY yogurt? Yeah. Frozen yogurt? They used to have a boysenberry flavor. That was my favorite. Oh, no way. Yeah. All right. So. But that doesn't help me much. That doesn't help you much. Yeah. Well, maybe not TCBY, but maybe I can find like a boysenberry fro-yo at the freezer, in the freezer of my grocery. What about you, Julie?

[00:02:59] So, you will like this, Trish. I am drinking Josh. Hmm. But it's interesting because it's called Sea Swept. And it's a combo of Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Grigio, which you may have tried. I don't know.

[00:03:18] So, funny enough, I have tried it, but I think I got it to review for an episode, but I couldn't wait and I drank it before the episode. So. There. That happens. So, what do you think? Well, I haven't tasted it yet. Oh, well. It smells delightful. Yeah. No, that's very nice. Okay.

[00:03:45] So, it says, crisp and refreshing, Sea Swept blends California's lightest white wine varietals, Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Grigio, to make a bright, citrusy, and easy-to-drink white wine that brings a taste of the coast to wherever you may be. I will say, I feel like you can taste a little bit of salt water in there. It's definitely the California Sauvignon Blanc versus the New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc.

[00:04:14] But mixed with the Pinot Grigio, it's quite nice. So, not as zippy? Definitely not as zippy. Anyone who listens to us often and when we're reviewing Sauvignon Blanc, you will recognize that. That is one of our favorite characteristics that we make up. It's zippy. Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. So, we have reviewed the wine. So, now it's time to get back to the W-H-I-N-E.

[00:04:43] And just so everybody knows what specifically we are referring to, because if you Google employee workarounds or workarounds in the workplace, a lot of times it shows up as companies going around IT-related things. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about working around a human. Which is a much, much more difficult process. Exactly.

[00:05:09] So, a workaround is when, rather than holding someone accountable, managers and or coworkers create a workaround. They literally work around this person and do that person's job for them, rather than hold them accountable or call them out for not doing what it is that they are supposed to be doing. So, Trish, you got any stats for us relating to the issue of workarounds?

[00:05:38] Oh, come on. You know I do. Not surprisingly, though, the issue of how workarounds affect employees hasn't necessarily been studied exactly. But we do have some stats for y'all that are related or address the results of those workarounds. So, workload imbalances lead to 31% of disputes within the workplace.

[00:06:07] By the way, these stats come from 130-plus workplace conflict statistics. This is a verified report from 2026. We also, from this same source, get training programs, reduce conflict by 50% in trained teams. And I don't know if anybody out there knows anybody who loves to train and does a phenomenal job on it. But I do.

[00:06:38] It's us. You're at Monarch, right? Ding, ding, ding. It's Julie and I. And by the way, y'all, it's not just for your trained teams. Leadership. Julie and I have created, as you may have heard us talk about before, a manager boot camp. So, just kind of going along those lines, leadership coaching resolves 65% of manager conflicts.

[00:07:07] And you talk about a return on investment. That is absolutely huge. Yeah. And again, while these aren't exact statistics on workarounds, a lot of, when you are forced to create workarounds, it creates a lot of conflict. Because people get mad about it, right?

[00:07:27] Like, nobody likes to have to do somebody else's work, not get the credit for it, and be frustrated that somebody is showing up to work every day and not putting in as much as you are. And then, again, you're having to take up the slack. So, we're going to talk a little bit now about, you know, the impact on employees, on HR, and on the company as a whole.

[00:07:51] So, the biggest thing from an employee perspective that I have seen and that I have heard about and witnessed is that workarounds kill morale for a variety of reasons. And one of those is what I just mentioned, is that the workload balance becomes completely unbalanced.

[00:08:14] There is no balance because you have one or more people who are not carrying their weight. And instead of just addressing that with those one or two people, you are creating these workarounds and requiring their teammates to take on the work that they're not completing on top of all the things that they have to do.

[00:08:41] And everybody knows where we're going to go next, I would assume. If you are doing the work in place of that person, no one else notices. It is unnoticed and unappreciated. Julie mentioned that a little bit ago. But it's really important to stop and think about that. You have these people who are being, if you will allow me to use the word, forced to compensate for other people.

[00:09:09] And they are not being compensated for the extra work they're doing. Not only that, they're not even being recognized for it. And you know what? We talk about recognition all the time. We talk about rewards. We talk about making sure that people are appreciated, feel heard, seen, valued. This is the quickest way to make sure that that doesn't happen. Exactly.

[00:09:35] And then another thing that happens is employees see that certain people get away with not working as hard or doing as much as others. And this is particularly toxic if that person who is allowed to get away with things happens to be a family member, which we see in a lot of the companies that we work with because we work with a lot of family-owned businesses. Or even if it is just somebody who's been around for a long time or somebody who's a difficult personality.

[00:10:04] So people just don't, again, want to have that uncomfortable conversation with that person to say, you need to change how you interact with others. It's easier just to say, well, just go to so-and-so when you have that kind of issue. Or just send the report to me directly. Or whatever the case may be, whatever the workaround ends up, it is a workout. So although I said the wrong word there, it's kind of the same thing.

[00:10:34] You know, the workarounds become a workout. And a gymnastic routine, right? Like all the things we're leaping to. Mental and physical. You know, it's interesting, Julie, that we're talking about this today. I actually had someone in my investigations class that I'm currently teaching mention that they have someone who is or they're in a situation where they have someone who is a friend.

[00:11:03] So not even family member, but they have become good friends with a coworker. This is a manager and that manager then is not holding the person accountable. And they have incident after incident, documentation after documentation, showing that this person needs to go and they will not get rid of them.

[00:11:26] And you can just see the absolute exhaustion when she's like, what do I do? Yeah. Well, and to your point, when people report it to a manager or HR, which we'll get to HR in a minute. So we're not trying to throw our HR friends under the bus or our manager friends under the bus.

[00:11:49] But when employees finally work up the nerve to say something, which we all know that takes a lot of courage because it's not comfortable for anyone. Right. So they finally work up the courage to say something and they go to their manager and they say, hey, X, Y and Z. And the manager says, OK, OK, I'll talk to them. And then nothing ever changes.

[00:12:12] And then again, or they see that manager going out to lunch with that friend or going out to happy hour with that person who's their friend, the coworker that they've just gone and complained to them about. And they're like, what's the point? Nothing's going to happen. Nothing's ever going to change. And how demoralizing is that? I don't even like it absolutely, totally, completely makes you feel powerless. And like, why do I even bother? And y'all, you need to think about this.

[00:12:41] So silence is an is an answer. Do you've heard Julie and I say this to you before? When you stay silent, that's an answer. Well, guess what? So is inaction. Right.

[00:12:54] If you do not take some sort of action to hold your employees accountable, that tells those employees that they or at least some of them are free to do whatever they want or whatever they do not want. It doesn't just demoralize your employees and decrease morale.

[00:13:17] It creates tensions among your colleagues, like your coworkers, your employees, because of course they're going to get mad about it. Like it's frustrating. I would. Right. Right. Okay. Okay. So that's how it impacts employees. And I'm sure there's other ways, but those are some of the biggest ways we could think of. It also has an impact on HR in several different ways.

[00:13:42] So the first one is that when HR knows that this is being done, but HR can't do anything about it because ownership or leadership refuses to do anything about it. So HR's hands are tied. Right. That is a super frustrating position to be in as HR because our job is to advocate for both the employee and the company, which that can be a fine line to walk.

[00:14:10] But it's really hard to advocate for your employees when you know that nothing's going to happen. Well, and here's the thing. Where does the buck stop? It always ends up stopping with HR, right? Even if we try our hardest, we have these conversations, we do what we can to help again without bad mouthing. We are the ones where people say, well, I went to HR. They didn't do anything. It makes us look inefficient. And what are you going to say?

[00:14:40] Well, I tried, but they wouldn't let me. You can't. You can't say that. I mean, I guess you could, but you probably won't have a job for very long. Right. Right. And again, we understand, and as we'll talk about later, this is one of the challenges when you have these situations, is there are employees and HR professionals who have to stay in whatever job they're currently in. They can't just leave and wait to find a better one.

[00:15:09] So sometimes you're just kind of stuck with it. So we will talk in a little bit about how you, no matter what role you're in, can try to manage all of the feelings, the emotions, the frustrations, and to set some boundaries in situations like this. But right now we're going to stick to talking about the impact.

[00:15:34] So another thing that Tricia was just alluding to is that because HR often can't do anything and also can't fully explain why they can't do anything, then they are seen as the bad guy. So again, as Tricia was saying, it's like, well, I went to HR and HR didn't do anything. And then if it gets out that they went to HR and then, you know, the person who is not doing their job knows about it, then it creates even more conflict.

[00:16:03] And that creates an even bigger problem. So that's another way that it can be just a really no-win situation for HR. Going back to our discussion on nepotism or that untouchable employee, you as HR have to be super, super careful. And this is something maybe employees don't even understand. They think that maybe you don't want to address it or that you're choosing not to address it.

[00:16:33] But they do not realize that we actually do have to be careful as well on how much we push back. There's only so much we can do. We can advocate. We can advise. We can explain. But ultimately, if leadership chooses not to listen to us, really, there's nothing we can do about it, which is really sad to say. It is. It is.

[00:16:58] But we also, and again, we'll talk more about this later, but, you know, you also have to pick your battles. And you have to pick how far you're going to push this particular time. Because, as I think we talked about on a recent episode, change can happen very, very slowly.

[00:17:17] And sometimes if you take a more, a slower approach, a more strategic approach, and you start laying the groundwork for why certain things need to happen without just coming in like a bull in a china shop and saying, uh-uh, we have to fire this person.

[00:17:36] When you know that's not going to happen, like, you have to judge when the best time to make the request or the recommendation is when it's most likely to actually be taken. So, again, we'll talk a little bit more about that later. But suffice it to say, these situations always put HR in a really difficult position.

[00:18:01] So, we feel for our HR friends out there, which is why I'm already refilling my wine glass. Pause, please. I love it. Trish, tell us some of the ways that it impacts the company as a whole. Well, the first and probably most obvious is that you are going to lose your good employees. Your good employees are already being sourced by your competitors anyway.

[00:18:27] And if they don't feel that anyone's listening to them, if they feel underutilized or overutilized and undervalued, you're going to lose them to anyone. Because, again, these are good employees. They can find new jobs. Bam. Just like that. Yeah. Yeah. And even if they stick around, that low morale that we've been talking about leads to disengagement, lower productivity, and all of the things that end up impacting the company's bottom line.

[00:18:57] So, the company is losing out whether they stay or whether they go. And by the way, eventually, that person for whom that workaround was created or built, they're going to leave. They're going to leave or they're going to retire. And then guess what? You as the company, you're going to be left with this giant mess to clean up.

[00:19:20] And let's talk about the impact it might have just on your employee brand or employer brand. That's what I'm trying to say. Not employee brand. Your employer brand. You will suffer because these employees, as they left, will have talked. It'll be all over a glass door. Now you have this mess. How are you going to clean it up? Yeah. Yeah. Also, it is very inefficient.

[00:19:45] It is inefficient to have hired one person to do a particular job and then needing to have three or four people pitch in to get that work done. Because you're still paying the person you hired to do the job their full salary. And then you're also paying the other people salaries to do their jobs. But they are taking time away from their jobs to complete the work of this person that you are already paying a salary to. So, yeah, Trisha's like spinning her head around. That's what happens.

[00:20:15] It's a merry-go-round. It makes me dizzy. Exactly. It's a merry-go-round that makes you sick. So now we're going to shift into talking about how to get off of that merry-go-round. We love solutions. Yeah. So, Trish, let's go in opposite order. So now, since we just finished talking about the impact on companies, let's talk about some of the ways that companies can stop this from happening. Well, don't let it start to begin with. How's that? So simple, yet so difficult.

[00:20:45] Yet so, so difficult. What we're talking about is, hey, leadership, we're speaking to you, owners, managers, and yes, HR. We need to step up and we need to be willing to hold people accountable. You know, Julie and I talk about hard conversations quite often. They're called difficult conversations or hard conversations for a reason.

[00:21:12] But if you do not have those conversations, you are going to end up spinning around on this merry-go-round so fast that you get so dizzy, you go flying off and land on your face. Which means that your company is going to fail. Yep. Or your department. Yep. And on that note of holding managers accountable or employees accountable, but managers in particular, you need to hold them accountable for actually managing their people.

[00:21:40] So that needs to be a significant part of their performance management and their performance review. Like you can't just, I have seen so many companies where managers are not evaluated on how they manage their people. And that is crazy to me because that is their number one job as a manager is to manage their people. Should be. Right, should be.

[00:22:08] So however their people are doing is a reflection of how good or bad a manager they are. And so we need to start holding our managers accountable and we need that to be a significant portion of their performance review and a significant portion of the performance management system. And HR, you can help your managers with this by making sure that they are doing check-ins every year to get those job descriptions up to date. Make sure that they're accurate.

[00:22:38] Make sure, again, like I was just saying, every single year you should be doing just a quick review. See if anything's changed, if anything's added, if anything's been taken away. This is a joint effort here. We're not asking for siloed approaches to these issues. Yeah, and while we're on the topic of job descriptions, I'm going to shift into some things that HR can do. You can use those job descriptions, which again is why we want them to be updated and accurate.

[00:23:07] But you can use those job descriptions to push back if leadership starts advocating for a workaround. You know, you can, if you have that job description in front of you and it's up to date and it's accurate, say that this falls within this person's job description.

[00:23:25] So whoever they want to put that work on, you can say, you know, help me understand why this should fall under this person's job description versus under, you know, the person for whom we heard. To do this task, you know, just help me understand that. I could use the clarification. That is the exact same advice I gave this person I was talking to you about earlier today.

[00:23:54] I said to her, you need to say, help me understand why it is so important to keep this person. Explain to me the value that is created versus all of these things that we've shown you that can create lawsuits, people quitting. They have lost. Yeah, it's just so it's the help me understand is such a lovely way to do it. If you say to someone the why, you know, Julie and I are always about the why.

[00:24:24] But the one time the why isn't appropriate is when you say, well, why? Why are you doing this? Why are you not doing that? People get super defensive. So that helped me understand. Or can you explain how that provides value is another way I love to say it. Yeah. And also helping people separate the person from the position and the position's responsibilities.

[00:24:51] Because a lot of times leadership, ownership, whoever it might be that's, you know, advocating for the workaround, they are hung up on the person they are working around. For whatever reason, they don't want that person to suffer any consequences. And so, again, whether that's because they're a family member, a good friend of the person, you know, whatever the case may be. They don't want that person to suffer any consequences.

[00:25:20] But if you can help them separate that and say, okay, well, let's just look at where this responsibility best fits within our org chart, within our job descriptions, within our departments. That can sometimes help them realize, oh, yeah, I wasn't really looking at it from that perspective. I think that's fantastic. Fantastic. We always talk about using the data, right?

[00:25:49] Make sure that you start tracking your employees who leave or those who may be a flight risk because of these workplace imbalance issues. I think that that is something going to what Julie was just talking about, just kind of want to drive this point home a little more without having these things that we can track and say,

[00:26:13] I understand your position is X, but let me show you the fallout or the impact that you may not be observing. And so being able to track that, those other losses, that might help make them more aware of what exactly the full impact is. Yeah. And also advocating for the employees, again, in those moments.

[00:26:38] So if somebody is advocating a workaround or even if they just make an offhanded comment like, oh, just have, you know, so-and-so do it. If you can chime in as HR and say, well, hang on a second. Do we know if Trisha has the capacity to do that? It's my understanding that Trisha's pretty swamped with her own work right now. And that should be her priority, not getting somebody else's done.

[00:27:06] So if you can advocate for employees in that way, that can be really helpful as well. And again, that might go unseen because they're not going to, you know, that employee is not going to be in the room to see you advocating on their behalf. But that is a way that hopefully you can make a difference. Speaking of employees, should we talk about employees and what they can do? Absolutely. Because guess what? You can help yourselves. Yes.

[00:27:35] We said this kind of at the beginning, but workarounds, they happen because everyone allows them to happen. And this includes you as the employee. So there has to be a time when you advocate yourself. Again, from a professional standpoint, you're not going to say, I can't do that. You've put too much on my, I mean, sometimes we want to say it that way.

[00:27:59] But simply say, here is what is on my plate currently, or this is what I have going on. Can you help me understand how you would like me to prioritize this over X, Y, and Z that I already have a commitment to do? Or maybe that that needs to get out for a client or something like that. So maybe by saying it that way, they all of a sudden realize, oh, we're asking something that is inappropriate.

[00:28:27] And sometimes you just have to downright say, that is not going to be an option for me this week. If that is something that you would like me to do, then I do have more capacity next week. But again, I wouldn't do that because you don't want to have it happen regularly. But if you're one of those that are like, it's okay, I can handle it. I'm warning you, I wouldn't.

[00:28:55] But I understand at least if you are like, ah, it's not a big deal. You'll learn. Yep. You'll learn. You'll learn. You'll learn. Well, and when you do learn, talk to HR. Because even though sometimes HR really can't do anything, they can still sometimes help you navigate the situation.

[00:29:15] So I've had a few situations recently where I've been working with some employees who are in kind of a untenable situation where management hasn't made it clear that they are not going to take any action. But the employees are still left showing up for work every day. And they're still frustrated. And they're, you know, they're probably all looking for other jobs. But management doesn't seem too concerned about that.

[00:29:44] So my biggest advice to them is stop helping the coworker. Like you probably have because you have been worried about losing your job or you getting in trouble or whatever the case may be. And those are and can be legitimate concerns. So I'm not trying to diminish them. But we have to start making people face the consequences of their own actions.

[00:30:11] So it is not your fault that your coworker shows up late all the time or doesn't get their work done or, you know, plays helpless and is always asking you for help because they don't want to do something. You know, like that is on them. And you don't have to keep helping them in that process. Sooner or later, if you stop helping them, sooner or later, they are going to have to face some consequences.

[00:30:41] Now, if there's like several of you in the department, if you all make a pact to stop helping that person, then it's going to happen even faster. So how do you do this in the workplace without getting yourself fired? It's a legitimate question. And I appreciate that. So my advice to you would be if this person comes to you and says, hey, can you help me? I'm just so swamped right now. Now, your response is what Tricia just said. I'm sorry, but I need to focus on my own work right now.

[00:31:11] I can't help you. Or if you've been helping them for a long time, you can just flat out, very politely and respectfully say. I'm not going to help you any longer. Or no, no is a complete sentence. Right. So you can say that you can say it respectfully if you're worried about it and you have had a conversation with HR. Or send HR an email and say, hey, just FYI, so-and-so just came and asked me for help again.

[00:31:40] And I politely responded that I have too much on my plate right now or that I'm not going to help them anymore. I've helped them. I've already shown them how to do this. I'm not going to show them again. I've got to focus on my own work, whatever it is that you said. And just let HR know that so it's documented. So that if a manager does bring it up somewhere down the line, you've got it in writing that this is what you said. You were respectful and polite about it, but you were standing your ground.

[00:32:09] You did not get hired to do that person's job as well as your own. And listen, that person may go in and they may say, this is a hostile work environment. Right. We've all heard that. But OK, it is not. You are not bullying. You're not creating a hostile work environment. You're not being a jerk. You are just standing your ground. And I wasn't kidding when I told you guys, you can go ahead and say, OK, yeah, maybe next week.

[00:32:36] You're going to end up repeating and repeating and repeating. And if multiple people are doing that, all you're doing is creating a bigger, crazier merry-go-round and not the fun kind. Right. Right. And one last point to that. If let's say a manager comes to you and asks you to do something that is another person's job and they're like, can you just do this for me because I'm pressed for time? You need to say something in the moment.

[00:33:04] So if you really can't say no to that manager. So my first recommended response would be, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to go to so and so for this because that is their job. And if they give you a whole bunch of slack, you know, flack for that, which they probably will and you have to do it, you can say, OK, I will do it this time. But you need to address with her or him why he couldn't get this done.

[00:33:32] And next time I can't, I'm not going to do it. And those are appropriate responses. And again, I tell HR that you did that or tell your boss or, you know, tell someone that you did that just so that you have it documented. But the only way that the situation is ever going to change is if people at whether it's the employee level or the HR level. Of course, we hope it's at the leadership level, the company level.

[00:34:02] But if it's not happening there, it's only going to stop if HR and employees don't allow it to continue. So it's not a great place to be, but you do have power even in that place. And I would say your power is in the documentation. Yeah, I think that that is the best advice we could give you because it is scary and it is hard to stand up.

[00:34:28] But by documenting, by including HR, by showing that you have done it respectfully, then if there are these claims that I was kind of joking about, but also very serious, because I see these kind of claims coming in more and more. Open up an HR Reddit thread and you will see everything where people are like, what the heck is happening? Like the amount of claims and wild accusations and things that people are bringing to HR to solve.

[00:34:57] It's kind of ludicrous, actually. And of course, now I'm thinking about ludicrous and him popping up like a commercial. So my apologies. Hold on. Let me get my head back here. But it's it. It is so helpful for you to have then documented specifically what you said and that you said it in that professional way. That is it is hard.

[00:35:23] Y'all, we're not saying that that is an easy conversation to have or an easy statement to make. But it's good to stand up for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. OK, so let's get back to the wine and any final thoughts. So, Trish, how is your Pinot Noir treating you? And what is a final thought if you have one that you would like to leave our audience with? Pinots, delicious as always.

[00:35:52] Very, very happy with this one. Good to have with friends. I can see this. You know, I've been drinking the Pinots because I love reds still. I love all red, white rosés. It doesn't matter. But I still like to drink the reds in the summer. This one is an easier one, I would say, to drink on a summer night versus like a hot summer day. So this is a nice one for sitting around a bonfire, maybe at the lake, something like that. That's how that's how I'm going to enjoy it. All right.

[00:36:21] And then my my final thought, I think, would go to the the the way that we were talking earlier about instead of saying why to someone like, why don't you want to do this? Why? It's the help me understand. I think that that that language, whether you're speaking about our merry-go-round situation or you're thinking about any other situation that really does pull people off of their guard a little bit.

[00:36:49] And it's a great way to to start a conversation and really get somewhere with it. So, yes, absolutely. One hundred percent. Use it for this situation. But also remember just using that language, I think, is going to be helpful in all situations. Well, I'm still enjoying my wine. I do like it.

[00:37:08] I think it's very nice for just a it would be a good wine to always have in the fridge because I feel like a lot of people would like it, particularly if you've got, you know, whites. My issue with whites versus reds is that people are kind of they're either like Chardonnay or Sauvignon Blanc. And it's hard to find something that people both of those camps will like, you know, I think both camps would like this. So there's that.

[00:37:38] My final thought is and we didn't really get to get into this, but my final thought would be that if you are an employee who is in one of these situations and your managers and leaders will not do anything, you have to protect your mental health. So you have to find some way that you don't have the Sunday shmondays or the sicky icky is going into work every day. And that may mean that's part of what the setting boundaries is about.

[00:38:07] But that may also mean that it is time to start looking for another job. And that's not on you. You shouldn't feel guilty about that because it was your employer's duty to fix that situation. And one of the consequences of them not doing so is good employees leaving. So don't take that on yourself, but protect your mental health at all costs because a job is not worth it. And with that, I say cheers.

[00:38:37] Cheers. Cheers. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on all our social media. All the socials. Follow us everywhere. All the socials. And please, please reach out and tell us what you think. Wine recommendations, topic recommendations, whatever the case may be. Our email is always in our show notes. Again, thanks for joining us. Cheers. Cheers.