#050 - The Changing Role and Influence of Corporate Boards (with Janelle Brittain)

[00:00:00] What comes to mind when you think of a corporate board of directors? Thankfully, the vision

[00:00:07] of a bunch of old white dudes eating caviar and playing golf is starting to fade. And the

[00:00:11] implications are massive. Now it's so secret that the pace of change continues to accelerate.

[00:00:19] This rapid transformation is redefining how businesses and boards function. The role of modern

[00:00:25] boards has changed dramatically and they're playing a greater role in corporate governments

[00:00:30] and ultimately business performance. We live in an exciting time that's expanding the

[00:00:36] opportunity and potential for people like you to make a massive impact on business

[00:00:41] and society. Today we talk about why joining a board of directors can be a great way to

[00:00:47] do that, why it can be beneficial to add to your career plan, how to make it happen,

[00:00:52] and how to avoid some of the most common mistakes people make when trying to join a board.

[00:00:59] Welcome to The Working Well Podcast, this show that explores the rapidly changing landscape

[00:01:03] of work and well-being. Each episode we dive into the hottest topics in leadership, employee

[00:01:08] well-being, and the future of work. I'm your host Tim Borys. My guest today is Junelle

[00:01:15] Britt, CSP, she's founder and CEO of Dynamic Performance Institute, a 30 year old firm

[00:01:21] that works with leadership of companies and their boards. For 47 years she's served on

[00:01:26] a variety of boards while matching over 1000 executives with her ideal corporate board.

[00:01:32] She consults with boards to assess their governance effectiveness, help with interventions, advises

[00:01:38] the CEO and board chair how to work together, and lands expertise to resolve other important

[00:01:43] board issues. She has been a managing director of Mastermind Advisory Board and for 12 years

[00:01:49] was the director of Bordology Institute for Board Reembound.

[00:01:53] Welcome to the show Junelle, it's so great to have you here after our previous conversations.

[00:02:01] Welcome. I'm so glad to be here with you Tim. You have such an important mission behind your work.

[00:02:06] Thank you, and discussing boards is a pretty unique topic for The Working Well Podcast

[00:02:13] and some of the listeners may be a little unsure why we're featuring it, but I'm excited

[00:02:20] to feature it because I feel the role and the potential impact that boards can have is

[00:02:24] so often misunderstood by many people outside the C-suite in business. A lot of people

[00:02:30] just don't even consider it, especially if they're maybe new to leadership or not even

[00:02:36] in leadership at all. They're like, I could never be on a board.

[00:02:39] I know you have some amazing insights to share, but an incredible history with boards

[00:02:44] and I look forward to diving into it. Now let's start with a simple yet nuanced question.

[00:02:51] Why should people even consider being on a board?

[00:02:55] You know so often as you say people are focused on their jobs, their family, their personal

[00:02:59] lives, their health, and yet they will complain about the company. You know, complain about

[00:03:05] this and complain about that. I would ask, so what do you want to do about it? And one

[00:03:11] of the things you can do about it is you can get on for instance a corporate board.

[00:03:16] You can also get on non-profit boards and you can have a much bigger impact and create

[00:03:24] and transform organizations and companies so that people can be healthier. Let's say

[00:03:31] it's a heart association or Alzheimer's or children's organizations for non-profits,

[00:03:38] you can have such a huge impact that feeds your heart. And they talk a lot about longevity

[00:03:44] and some of the factors that cause people to live long lives. One of them is that you

[00:03:50] feel that you're having an impact. So what feeds your heart? You can make a big change

[00:03:59] in the world. And again, if you're complaining about work, well, what at the bigger level

[00:04:06] would you change to create a better work culture for instance? Is to be on corporate boards?

[00:04:12] I like what you said about that. It's really the passion and purpose and so much of what

[00:04:20] people struggle with in day-to-day life is just not having that passion and purpose.

[00:04:25] They feel that they're always run down and beat up by work. And how realistic is it for

[00:04:31] people to get involved in boards then?

[00:04:35] I would suggest that as you have progressed in your career, and you get to a stage of

[00:04:41] a career where you feel you've learned some lessons, you've accomplished some challenges.

[00:04:48] You've maybe done a turnaround in your department. You've had some things where you could share

[00:04:57] what you have learned with others. That's when you're at the stage or when you can give back

[00:05:04] at the board level. And when you're going to be on a board, there's a couple of other things

[00:05:10] to think about. It can help your career. It increases your credibility when you talk about

[00:05:18] serving on a board. It also challenges you to think more strategically about problem-solving,

[00:05:26] about planning for the future, about how you want things to be. And it lifts up your perspective

[00:05:36] from the day-to-day grind of things so that again, you can have a bigger impact.

[00:05:43] I like that. Do you mention that once people get to a certain point in their career,

[00:05:50] but if we flip that upside down and say what about someone who's new to their career,

[00:05:54] wants to accelerate it more effectively, how can someone that's really a new worker

[00:06:02] set themselves up for long-term success? What opportunities exist for them?

[00:06:07] Well, first off, put it on their career plan to get on boards. And then to work towards it,

[00:06:15] one of the first steps for a newer person in their career would be to be on nonprofit boards

[00:06:21] and find a board that you are passionate about. So there's a lot of different kinds of

[00:06:26] nonprofit boards. So one kind is what I would call the charity type. So again, if it's a disease or

[00:06:33] if it is a domestic violence or children related or something that you care a lot about,

[00:06:40] then first get involved in the organization and then work your way up to be on the board.

[00:06:48] And another type of a nonprofit board is professional associations. So let's say you have got

[00:06:56] your accounting degree, the professional association for accountants to get on that board.

[00:07:03] You can be on your local chapter board first. If you're getting involved, maybe on some committees

[00:07:08] and then go for the board and then go for the national board, you will grow so much as you go

[00:07:15] through that process. And so let's expand a little bit and identify the differences between

[00:07:24] you mentioned corporate boards, nonprofit boards, charity boards. What are the major

[00:07:30] major distinctions and differences between those? Well, in some ways there's a lot of similarities.

[00:07:37] And in both cases, nonprofit and corporate, you have fiduciary responsibility.

[00:07:43] That means that when you're on a board, someone can sue the board for their decisions.

[00:07:50] So the purpose for you being on that board is to make sure that the board's going to make educated

[00:07:55] decisions. Now, the judge of what's right and what's wrong can be the court system,

[00:08:01] but in most cases, court systems bend in favor of the board as long as they ask questions

[00:08:09] to try to make the right decisions. So there's the fiduciary responsibility as similar in both.

[00:08:14] And another thing that's similar is the amount of time required. You might think nonprofit would be

[00:08:20] less, not necessarily so. So for instance, let's say you're being interviewed for a board of either

[00:08:28] type. One of the things you'll say is we have four meetings a year or we have a meeting a month.

[00:08:34] So then you're going to put that on your calendar and you're going to say, okay, there's that two

[00:08:37] hours I'm going to allocate to that whatever that board or for corporate boards sometimes it's a

[00:08:43] whole day once a quarter, a little bit different timing. That's only the tip of the iceberg.

[00:08:50] There's much more than that. So most studies say it takes an average of about two hundred two

[00:08:58] 150 hours a year to serve on a board. So a question to ask yourself is do you have that time?

[00:09:06] Yeah. And now something that is different though as you may already assume between

[00:09:12] nonprofit and corporate, corporate you get paid for being on the board.

[00:09:18] And let's take how much as an example, if you are on let's say in a corporate advisory board

[00:09:26] startup company and they want you to meet just once a quarter a couple of hours,

[00:09:31] they might just pay you $500 for the meeting. And I'm speaking in US here.

[00:09:37] Yeah, Canada is very similar. But then as you would work with more mature companies

[00:09:45] than like private companies, the averages are somewhere between 10 and 70,000 a year to be on those

[00:09:52] boards. If you're on public companies, then it usually goes way up from there 100,000 to 800,000

[00:10:00] a year. So again, decides on depends on the size of the company, maturity, private or public.

[00:10:09] But again, corporate boards have the compensation.

[00:10:14] Yeah, because a lot of people call not for private boards, volunteer boards.

[00:10:19] Right. Maybe it's your local church or your community,

[00:10:24] they said community association or something like that. The kids sports organization are volunteer

[00:10:33] boards. Yeah, the kids, the kids schools that they go to to be on a school board.

[00:10:41] All that's good experience. Yeah. And you mentioned the different meeting rhythms that they'd have

[00:10:47] in what the time commitment might be, but what types of I guess decisions and subcommittees

[00:10:57] and things like that are there. And what opportunities are there to learn?

[00:11:01] Yes, that's a very good point. Almost always when you're on a board, there will be some subcommittees.

[00:11:08] And so you need to count that time in there too. So on let's say corporate boards,

[00:11:15] almost all board positions have to serve on at least one, if not two, sometimes three committees.

[00:11:22] So it could be audit committee. And again, on the corporate boards, they would have something

[00:11:26] called denominations or governance or human capital or leadership development type of company

[00:11:32] as the people oriented kind of a committee. Excuse me. So there's different kinds of committees.

[00:11:39] On a non-profit, there will be the fundraising committees. They may have audit committee as well.

[00:11:45] They may have strategic planning committee. So there would be different committee works

[00:11:51] that you would have to serve on too. And how does that feed? Does that feed to that overall time

[00:12:00] commitment of what 250 hours approximately or is that on top of it? Well, that feeds into it. Yeah.

[00:12:07] Yeah. And now another piece is how much does it cost to be on for you to be on a board?

[00:12:14] Now, there are some charities that they want you to say that you will invest in the charity

[00:12:23] thousand dollars, five thousand dollars, whatever their

[00:12:26] last is or if you can't do it, that you would be able to tap other people to bring in that amount

[00:12:33] of money. So just be sensitive that in a charity scenario, they may be asking you to be a donor as well.

[00:12:43] When that brings up a good point is different people bring different skill sets to the table

[00:12:48] and being very clear about what that skill set is will help you find your place on the board,

[00:12:58] especially in a charity side. A lot of times it's if you can bring a big

[00:13:03] book of business into potential donors into the business or into the organization, then

[00:13:10] you're basically in a fundraising role for that for that board. But there are other people

[00:13:16] that come in from a strategy or operation. You know, if we call it old school, roll of X.

[00:13:26] Right. Exactly. And some of that applies also to small companies.

[00:13:31] Small companies may ask their board directors to fundraise, to try to find venture capitalists

[00:13:37] and those kinds of connections or prospective clients introduce the company to perspective

[00:13:45] clients so that could be a requirement for a smaller company in what they're looking for.

[00:13:52] And to take a small little aside is you've been worked on boards in some capacity for

[00:14:00] 47 years and got a wealth of experience. How do you seem the, maybe not the role? Because I think

[00:14:10] the overall role of boards has been pretty similar, but how have you seen it evolve over the years?

[00:14:14] Oh, it's dramatically changed, especially in the corporate world. In the olden days 20 years ago

[00:14:23] or earlier, the boards were all made up of senior white males. And they were almost all CEOs with

[00:14:35] the occasional attorney or CPA. And we have been able to break through the glass ceiling

[00:14:43] through a variety of approaches whether it's been legislation, regulations, social pressure,

[00:14:49] variety of things to get more women and minorities on corporate boards. So that has caused a major

[00:14:57] revolution. The other revolution that happened was shortly after the year 2000 when

[00:15:04] the inner workings of the boards became public when some major companies started,

[00:15:12] we learned it, we learned about fraud in some major companies. And it went all the way to the

[00:15:18] board level, like the in-rons of the world and others. So then that opened up the boards and now

[00:15:27] the requirements on board and the visibility of what corporate boards do, public ones

[00:15:33] is so much greater than it ever had been before. But it makes them be more responsible

[00:15:38] and to do the job that they were really there before to do before because what would happen is

[00:15:44] it was sort of like a entry club. Now they come together for their quarterly meeting,

[00:15:51] they meet for a couple of hours the board members, rubber stamp whatever the CEO wants,

[00:15:55] and they go golfing for the rest of the time. In today's world it's serious business

[00:16:02] because they are now being held accountable so that board culture is dramatically changed.

[00:16:08] Now there's another change that has happened and that has to do with social responsibility

[00:16:15] kinds of things, ESG, environmental societal and governance focused kinds of issues.

[00:16:22] And so now boards are putting on their boards people who are specialists in that area.

[00:16:28] Now other social or subject matter expertise areas that are really hot right now

[00:16:37] is anybody in IT, AI, blockchain, cyber security, any of those areas or combination of those areas

[00:16:49] boards are looking for you because they suddenly need to know what are the right kinds of questions

[00:16:56] we need to be asking our head of IT to make sure that our company is not going to get hacked,

[00:17:02] is not going to have problems, you know, not going to be held ransom, all kinds of issues

[00:17:08] that companies and boards are having to face. So the makeup of the board is so different now.

[00:17:15] There's still maybe a couple of CEOs on the board but there are also more subject matter experts

[00:17:23] on the board than ever before.

[00:17:26] Yeah and from what you said taking a more active role in the governance

[00:17:31] and direction of the organization rather than just remember stamping.

[00:17:37] And I think we see that in the news quite substantially based on

[00:17:43] the, I guess how much more open the block box has become since the end runs of the world.

[00:17:50] Exactly. And a lot of what I've been talking about is public board focused and your first

[00:17:55] board will probably, I mean I'm speaking to the general world out there, your first board will

[00:18:00] probably not be on a public company board, probably be on a private company board.

[00:18:05] And quite frankly the opportunity is much greater on private company boards

[00:18:11] than the US 98% of corporations are privately held.

[00:18:16] Only 2% are public. Now what we hear about the public ones there in the front pages

[00:18:21] of the newspaper but the private ones we don't hear about unless it's a real catastrophe kind of thing.

[00:18:29] So again, the opportunity is much greater for your first boards.

[00:18:34] From small, medium and large privately held companies whether it's family owned

[00:18:39] or equity owned or whatever, there's much more opportunity with privately held companies.

[00:18:49] And so how would someone go about finding these private companies and getting on boards?

[00:18:55] Oh that's a big question. So let me share the answer to that in a couple of segments.

[00:19:04] One is if you've decided that it is at the point of your career, well you feel you have something to

[00:19:09] offer at the board level, then I help you translate your executive accomplishments into board language.

[00:19:19] So it's very important that you know how to speak board language versus executive language.

[00:19:25] It's very different and you can mess up an interview for instance. You can mess up how you talk

[00:19:30] about what it is you bring to a board by putting it in the wrong language. So we take that and

[00:19:35] we put it into a board resume. And then we also look at your LinkedIn and we tweak your LinkedIn to

[00:19:43] have more of a board focus because you can get board opportunities through LinkedIn.

[00:19:49] And then you will learn how to network differently. Now what some people will say, well if you want

[00:19:58] to be on the board, don't you just go around telling all kinds of people, you know I want to be on the

[00:20:02] board. I want to be on the board. You knew of any right? That's the quickest way to reduce your

[00:20:07] credibility. That's showing that you don't know how to get on a board with some much more subtle

[00:20:16] and much more finessed. So what you need to do and I show you how to do this is I will show you how

[00:20:23] to look at all the colleagues you know, organize them into eight different categories because it's been

[00:20:32] my experience. The people in certain kinds of positions are the best ones to help you find the

[00:20:39] right kinds of opportunities and the right kinds of fit for you too. That's another very important thing is

[00:20:43] we go through a whole thought process about where's the best fit for you. So then I would show you how

[00:20:51] approach each category of type of person correctly so that you don't turn them off,

[00:21:01] so that you present yourself at the board level and have that credibility when you're having that

[00:21:08] conversation with them. So they're not just looking at you as the manager that they've known you as

[00:21:13] or the executive that they have known you as. They're seeing you as a board director

[00:21:19] and I'll show you how to accomplish that. Can you give a couple examples of the language that might

[00:21:25] be used just to position you from a board perspective versus an executive perspective?

[00:21:32] Some people might say well I've done a lot of project management.

[00:21:36] Project management is not what boards do. They are strategic so you can say I led 50 million dollar

[00:21:51] projects towards accomplishment to prove ex amount of growth or whatever or to do a turnaround

[00:22:05] or to create a greater efficiency. So the focus is on leadership and outcome versus some of the

[00:22:15] language we have been trained to use as managers and executives as you would say to your business

[00:22:21] person down the hall kind of conversation. And one thing I have noticed as well as the

[00:22:31] the difference between the strategy and the operations boards don't get operational in the

[00:22:40] business. They're stepping back and looking at strategy aspect making sure that's in place.

[00:22:48] Well we hope so. Let me give a couple of caveats on that one. It depends on the maturity

[00:22:55] of the company or the nonprofit even. We have a phrase in the board world and that is you

[00:23:02] should have your nose in and your hands out so that means you're monitoring through reporting

[00:23:13] as to what's going on that's the nose in part but unless there's a major problem

[00:23:19] you keep your hands out and you advise through questioning you know help the director of IT think

[00:23:27] through this transformation that they need to do or whatever. Now I'm going to take a different

[00:23:35] mark on that if it is a young company or a nonprofit that doesn't have much staff

[00:23:42] you may need to be more hands-on you may need to get in there and be more operational

[00:23:49] so it's a question to ask when you look when you're considering a board opportunity

[00:23:56] of is this a strategic board or an operational board?

[00:24:02] Okay yeah that's a perspective ahead and thought about too much but I guess you're right yeah

[00:24:07] and then on the nonprofit side or small organizations. So are you getting a board position or

[00:24:12] you're getting a job? Yes exactly you know and another thing your focus is also on work life

[00:24:21] balance and health and those kinds of things and I hate to say this but nonprofit boards tend to be

[00:24:30] more dysfunctional than corporate boards and that means that there can be more stress

[00:24:37] more why is that? Because people who are serving on nonprofit boards often come there with the heart

[00:24:45] part of the care about Alzheimer's disease you know curing it but they don't know how to be on

[00:24:51] an nonprofit board or they come from a place of ego and they want to have their way

[00:25:00] and it can create all kinds of dysfunction amongst the people and even within the organization

[00:25:08] so I'm a board consultant one of the things I do so quite frankly I get more board consulting

[00:25:13] engagements with nonprofits than with corporates because of that. So I just give you that as a heads-up

[00:25:22] um so that for instance let's say you are investigating whether or not to be on a nonprofit board

[00:25:28] try to check to find out how functional or healthy that board is in how it relates with each other

[00:25:35] or how it relates with the ESF as well. And how much you do that?

[00:25:42] You could ask when decisions are being made how much discussion happens and if there's no

[00:25:53] discussion that's a problem and then if there's a lot of discussion and you say are there

[00:26:00] factions on the board? Are there groups that tend to align with each other on certain board

[00:26:07] decisions that can talk about issues that's often when I'm brought in. You can ask how does everyone

[00:26:19] participate in discussions? So one no it's basically just Janelle she just talks all the time

[00:26:26] so it's again finding out if there's a dominating personality on the board is another way to find out.

[00:26:34] And another way is I'm sorry go ahead. No go ahead. Go ahead yeah. In the interview the CEO or

[00:26:43] president of the organization or the company and ask them how do they view their relationship

[00:26:51] with the board? And what you're looking for it uh do they view them as partners, advisors

[00:27:00] or do they view them as adversaries? That's a really good point yeah. Yeah because uh

[00:27:08] you mentioned the dominant personality and I've seated in a couple of boards that I've been on too

[00:27:19] is whether it's the head of the organization, CEO or whatever that is on the board as the company

[00:27:28] representative they're leading the charge and they're very dictatorial and sometimes the board

[00:27:35] cows to that and really doesn't call them and doesn't do their fiduciary duty. Right yeah absolutely

[00:27:44] and sometimes it takes guts to stand up to a powerful personality so do you have the guts to do that

[00:27:54] and diplomatically of course so often every car has a lot of thought ahead of time about

[00:27:59] you know how can you bring up something diplomatically and whatever and that's part of the 200 hours

[00:28:05] is thinking through how to really have an impact in a positive way

[00:28:13] but you know understanding this power place and every get two people together there can be power issues

[00:28:21] yeah and if you think there are politics in companies there are politics on boards and

[00:28:28] that's just part of the navigating that we have to do through pretty much every ask

[00:28:33] aspect of life it's high school and suits

[00:28:40] yes absolutely you know I was just thinking about some mistakes people make when they decide

[00:28:47] that they want to be on a board again part of it is to get ask themselves why do I want to be on a

[00:28:55] board is because I want the ego I want to be able to say I'm on a board I mean that can be a valid

[00:29:04] aspect but how what percentage is that is that 10 or 20% or is that 100% no so you're also looking

[00:29:14] to your what it is you like to bring your your helping aspect you're helping to make the world a

[00:29:20] better place or the company better place those kinds of things and some of this comes out during

[00:29:28] the interview process I coach people through interviews so another mistake that I've noticed

[00:29:33] that some people make who are coming from their ego is that they say I don't need any advice about

[00:29:39] going through I've done hundreds of interviews an executive interview or job interview is different

[00:29:45] than a board interview so I had one man come to me he said I've had four first interviews

[00:29:52] for boardger directors and never got past that so I talked with him about how he presents himself

[00:29:59] well he presented himself ego first so I had to work with him on other motivations and respecting

[00:30:07] others intelligence he's not the smartest person in the room other people are intelligent you know

[00:30:14] those kinds of things so it's it has nuances to it that are different

[00:30:23] and that yeah you make a great point in why do people want to be part of boards is it part of the

[00:30:31] career trajectory is it part of giving back the passion for this particular topic what are some

[00:30:41] of the other mistakes that people make before you had mentioned the not having a board resume

[00:30:48] versus just a traditional resume and some of the verbiage used but what are some of the other common ones

[00:30:56] as they people get into this they don't realize it's going to take a while

[00:31:02] in some ways it's almost like getting a master's degree there's a lot to learn so for instance I

[00:31:07] advocate that you start getting some e newsletters or magazines and journals that have to do with

[00:31:13] boards so you start to get a mindset that has to do with what is like to be in the boardroom and

[00:31:20] issues that they face and how they address them in in addition to that it can take a long time let's

[00:31:28] say it's a publicly held company or a large company they plan in advance a year to fill a position

[00:31:35] so it can take one or two years to get on a big company board so they get people get impatient waiting

[00:31:45] and there can be a lot of document exchange well another challenge with it is raised here in the

[00:31:52] United States there are rules and regulations when you're being interviewed for a job about questions

[00:31:59] that they cannot ask you however for a board interview there are none

[00:32:06] that means yes that means that they can ask you about your family your relatives where they work

[00:32:16] they want to make sure that there are no skeletons in your closet they will end up being a part of

[00:32:20] a bad reputation that would reflect on the company and do any of your relatives work for the

[00:32:28] competition so there's a variety of those kinds of questions that you might initially be offended by

[00:32:37] that you need to be prepared for that I would help you with in preparations for the interviews

[00:32:45] and sometimes the interviews will be done by the whole nominations committee at once and they'll

[00:32:50] be firing questions at you you know just a variety of challenging situations through the process that

[00:32:59] I I help coach people through what are typical people would serve on a board for

[00:33:08] good question generally it's multiple years and each nonprofit or corporation will have a

[00:33:19] stipulation of term or some don't have both nonprofit and corporate some don't they should good

[00:33:26] governance says you should but it's amazing how many private companies that there are no term limits

[00:33:33] whatsoever and very often in private companies they view it as a long-term commitment it could be 20

[00:33:39] years it could be 10 years in especially like a family-held company you become like a part of the

[00:33:50] family so it's it is that long-term commitment there however please know that you should be ready to

[00:34:00] walk and leave a board at any time if you think that they're doing something illegal on ethical

[00:34:10] or that you don't believe in is the right way to do things so no matter what the term is

[00:34:17] you can you have a right at any time to leave

[00:34:24] and that's I think that's aligned with what people ideally join boards for is to make a difference

[00:34:32] and how do we balance the I'm here to make a difference and walking away when you feel you can't

[00:34:43] right yeah absolutely um I've been amazed at how many nonprofits have things like sexual harassment

[00:34:53] uh even organizations that you would totally not expect it um that there can be things going on inside

[00:35:02] the organization discrimination um that when you find it out you could be very helpful with helping to

[00:35:11] clean it up so yeah if you want to take that part of the challenge but it may not have been what

[00:35:18] you originally signed on for because you thought you would be helping with a health kind of challenge

[00:35:23] versus internal issues but you may discover that and ask yourself in my willing that if I find out

[00:35:31] that there that the CEO is stealing money uh with dealing with that you know if the CFO is stealing money

[00:35:42] most fraud is done by either the CEO or CFO or the two of them together

[00:35:49] so that's a part of your fiduciary responsibility is watching over that

[00:35:56] and what are some of the conflicts that you've seen come up uh you know you mentioned

[00:35:59] that diversity in the ESG corporate social responsibility has been one of the biggest changes

[00:36:05] over the past 20 years um we'd like to you know in a ideal world think that

[00:36:12] that's all been received well at the board level uh what are some of the challenges that

[00:36:18] that you're seeing with more diverse boards and um more women on boards it's still lower compared to

[00:36:26] what it should be but how are some of those changes happening let's say a woman is the first woman

[00:36:34] to go on an all-male board um she should be prepared uh not be heard that the points that she makes

[00:36:47] they will say mm-hmm and then move on or someone else will make the same point later

[00:36:52] and yeah and everybody else said oh that's a good idea and and she'll be thinking you know

[00:36:56] I just said that five minutes ago didn't you hear me but you know quite frankly we've been used to

[00:37:02] throughout our whole career and before I gave a presentation once about boards a woman came up to me

[00:37:10] ahead of time and she said at times change uh our boards now gonna really listen to us women on the

[00:37:17] boards i had to say to her you know you have to still fight the same battles that you've been fighting

[00:37:25] all the way up through all the glass ceilings you've broken through already it can be

[00:37:31] even sturdier of a glass ceiling in the boardroom but by now you should have learned diplomacy

[00:37:38] and how to stand up and persistence the keep pushing forward to help make a change happen even

[00:37:48] in the board dynamics on how they are with hearing you for instance and there's been some interesting

[00:37:55] studies that the more women there are on the board how that increases while women are listened to

[00:38:03] on the board and if a woman can get on to chair the nominations committee

[00:38:13] that can cause the quickest change in dynamics on a on a board bringing in women more women in

[00:38:19] minorities and also paying attention to that in the leadership of the company

[00:38:24] and shifting the culture so that can be a very powerful position to be in

[00:38:32] well there's so many studies and research and you know practical applications of

[00:38:39] how creativity and profitability and all these benefits that happen at the

[00:38:45] in the company level from diversity and inclusion it makes perfect sense that the same would

[00:38:52] happen with the boards but I think that's been slower to change absolutely you know insurance

[00:38:59] industry is famous for the senior white male stereotype there was a woman CEO and chair of the board

[00:39:12] of an insurance company on the east coast that was the only insurance company that was able to

[00:39:21] turn themselves around within a couple of days when covid shutdowns happened because she

[00:39:29] had repaired the company or emergencies she had the foresight and the guts to be open to think

[00:39:39] through what if scenarios every quarter so that they were prepared for all kinds of what ifs

[00:39:49] so that everybody already had laptops that they could take home and they were ready to continue

[00:39:58] business as usual yeah diversity of thought diversity of experience is so valuable and

[00:40:11] what do you think well you've seen lots of changes so far how far still do you think it has to come

[00:40:17] until we're at the point where it's common practice in the United States we have not really had

[00:40:27] older regulations like they have in Europe and other countries that was the fastest way

[00:40:33] that some countries I'm going to call it overnight although they would give them you know a couple

[00:40:39] of years to make that transition um to get to equity we would call it like 50 percent

[00:40:46] representing the population we're not there yet we are getting better

[00:40:54] we need to get a lot more women and minorities and on on boards

[00:41:00] and in our cultures our work cultures as well and nonprofits need to do the same

[00:41:07] you know some nonprofits are better than others but some of them are still old school big money

[00:41:13] focused you know on some charities it will be big money to people their focus is always

[00:41:19] what you got to bring ten thousand dollars to the board there's no one on the board representing

[00:41:25] the people who they are helping let's say immigrants so they don't have that perspective on the board

[00:41:35] so that's why that's why the micro donation companies are eating their lunch and taking all the

[00:41:41] donations yes yes yes to still continue to look at themselves to ask and ask

[00:41:51] themselves this question are we relevant are we really being responsible for our mission

[00:42:03] whether it's corporate or nonprofit they all have a mission

[00:42:12] and diversity of thought and experience and is going to help

[00:42:20] I guess take the blinders off in a lot of cases

[00:42:23] because when you have that you know mono mono focus mono thought on hey we've just

[00:42:31] going to keep doing what we're doing that's where you get the blind spots and a lot of times people

[00:42:38] aren't even aware of the group's idea of a blind spot a group think yes yeah and so the people who

[00:42:47] are quote in the category of diverse need to have again diplomatic guts to talent aren't thinking

[00:42:57] so that's those important skills for someone who's coming up in that category

[00:43:05] now you had mentioned you know you do coaching and helping people work through how to get on boards

[00:43:12] and set themselves up for success are there courses people can take as well to do this and what

[00:43:19] what ones are out there um I offer courses I usually do them through other corporations

[00:43:26] right now I don't have any on the docket coming up but I would suggest that quite frankly

[00:43:32] the best way for most people is to do one-on-one because it's customized to their needs

[00:43:38] so that if wherever you are in your career I work with you there to help you fast track

[00:43:45] to your goal of being on the right kind or the best fit of a board for you whether it's a first

[00:43:53] non-profit or whether it's a first corporate or whether it's your second corporate sometimes

[00:43:59] some people through what I would call serendipity get on their first corporate board their college

[00:44:04] buddy says hey come be on my board you say sure I was just thinking I wanted to be on a board and

[00:44:10] they take it maybe they shouldn't because it really may not be the best fit for them and it might

[00:44:15] be hard to hold your buddy responsible for dysfunction of some sort or another but um again I help you

[00:44:23] think through your strategy make sure it's going to be good fit when it's something we do over time

[00:44:31] I'm a very practical person so they I take you step by step by step so you feel the progress

[00:44:41] you see the accomplishments as you're going along and you're in control

[00:44:47] so that whenever you are ready you're doing it I like to set it up so that you won't need me later on

[00:44:53] you'll know how to build your board portfolio as you may want to have one board on the side right

[00:44:59] now let's say you're working full-time and you want to have one corporate board

[00:45:04] and then but as you mature in your career you may want to have two or three or four boards you

[00:45:09] want to be on in retirement it's a great retirement strategy so that you would put your schedule out

[00:45:17] there for quarterly meetings you'd work with each one but yeah you would have independence

[00:45:23] being a retired person to travel more and those kinds of things

[00:45:30] nice career stress these are yeah exactly and the skills you've talked about is how to position

[00:45:35] yourself and the you know how to build your resume and some of the verbiage you use what about the

[00:45:43] I guess the practical skills once you're in the board like the you know understanding the

[00:45:48] governments and the governments and the structure and things like that how

[00:45:53] how do people learn those especially if they're new and they might not have experience with

[00:45:57] that in an executive position sure there are a lot of organizations will teach you about board

[00:46:03] governance so their universities very often have programs on the National Association of Corporate

[00:46:10] Directors has programs they're online programs so check them all out there's a variety of different

[00:46:18] approaches it depends on what you're looking for and again if I work with someone one on one I could

[00:46:26] give you some guidance but I will also tell you that I do help some of my clients once they are on a

[00:46:30] board with board governance issues I also have a board governance assessment that I put people through

[00:46:40] so it's a questionnaire that helps for a person to see what their current knowledge level is

[00:46:48] around their board contribution and fiduciary responsibilities and those kinds of things

[00:46:54] so then they would know what areas they need to study up on so it's very targeting in that way

[00:47:02] but the board governance is something to be constantly studying I find it fascinating

[00:47:08] a board nerd I was just reading an article we're breakfast about some board issues

[00:47:17] but it's fascinating it's intellectually stimulating and if you like your passion for it comes

[00:47:25] yeah your passion for it is loud and clear and I love that I love speaking with people that are

[00:47:31] so passionate about what they do and as I've been on boards over the years I've seen

[00:47:37] the both the power and the dysfunction of some and it's fascinating to me and I'd love to see

[00:47:46] how boards can positively impact the organization or the business that they're working with and

[00:47:53] for me that's something that has a plan and a progression that I wanted in my career as well

[00:47:58] and I've been on not for profit boards so far and I'm curious to see what the corporate

[00:48:06] board so I can have how it's different it's very exciting so you know what well we I could keep

[00:48:20] talking about this for a long time but I know I'm conscious of our time what can people do to

[00:48:25] find out more and find you online where where are you located online um I am at uh

[00:48:32] jennell my email is jennell jenn el le at board dynamicperformance.com as I know it's a long

[00:48:42] one there so jennell at dynamicperformance.com and my website is board dynamic performance.com

[00:48:49] to go to that website and learn more about the variety of board related coaching and services

[00:48:55] that I offer you know and I was thinking about you know the the best reason for people to be on boards

[00:49:04] is that they should believe in the organization and or the company love the product love the service

[00:49:13] that let's say the the company makes or or does. They you should respect the people on the board

[00:49:21] and that you should want to have a greater impact and with those kinds of motivations that will

[00:49:27] affect the questions you ask as you're going through the process and again and I can help

[00:49:32] guide you through it there's a lot to do there's a lot to learn um and I work with all levels of managers

[00:49:40] and executives to help them along this way so again and I can offer to you a free 30-minute conversation

[00:49:47] so let's say you like to explore it as you say hmm let me check this out that you can simply email

[00:49:53] me and let me know that you're interested or you know so connect with me on LinkedIn.

[00:49:59] Well again jennell britain jennie lle and then britain is like great britain only two teas

[00:50:05] I have more tea than they do but at any rate um you can request a 30-minute free consultation

[00:50:15] to check and see is this for me or is this for me at this time in my career

[00:50:21] I'd be glad to get to know you along these lines.

[00:50:26] And that's a very generous offer and thank you so much I'll make sure that goes in the show notes

[00:50:30] and I can put a direct link to your LinkedIn and uh and the website as well so fantastic I

[00:50:38] might probably take you up with that myself. All right let's do it yeah thank thank you so much

[00:50:44] and what's one last uh well obviously the the consultation the first step that uh that people can take

[00:50:54] what's one word of advice you have for really those new leaders out there that that are thinking I

[00:51:04] could never ever be on a board what's one advice you have for them make it a New Year's resolution

[00:51:14] that you will put it in your career plan to serve on a board of directors whether it's non-profit

[00:51:23] whether it's private tell you one quick story I had a 28-year-old young woman get on a corporate

[00:51:32] corporate advisory board why because she was a young person and she fit the type of market segment

[00:51:43] that they wanted to grow in so they were recruiting people who were in their 20s to advise them on

[00:51:51] how to sell to that group and that was a paid board so there's all different kinds of options and

[00:52:00] again and I can help you find them depending on how you would like to serve but as a New Year's

[00:52:06] resolution put it on your career plan and start to take a step forward love it and you bring up

[00:52:14] a great point is that with the diversity in bringing new thought processes and people onto boards

[00:52:22] there are opportunities that were not present even five-ten years ago and so to be able to open your

[00:52:29] mind to the fact that hey boards are looking for these people and why not me why not why not apply

[00:52:40] be part of a change process yeah why not you wonderful thank you thank you so much it has been

[00:52:50] fantastic speaking with you and I will make sure people get your offer of free consultation I'll

[00:52:56] put that in the show notes and thank you again so wonderful chatting with you and I'm so excited

[00:53:04] about the mission you have with helping people to blossom to their best whether it's health, career,

[00:53:12] mind it's all wrapped up in helping each person be their best thank you so much to know

[00:53:22] that wraps up another episode of the Working Well Podcast if you enjoyed the show please rate,

[00:53:27] review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts which guests or topics would you like

[00:53:33] to see featured on the show message me through LinkedIn or on the contact page of tenboras.com

[00:53:38] thank you for tuning in I'm tenboras with fresh group and look forward to seeing you on the next episode