[00:00:10] You're listening to The Talent Sync, a collaborative podcast production from JobSync and the Surveil Candy Benchmark Research Program. The Talent Sync is about anything and everything recruiting and hiring. Literally the kitchen sink and how all things in talent acquisition work together, should work together, and how sometimes they don't. Now it's time to sync up with your hosts, Leah Daniels and Kevin Grossman. This episode is about Candidate Experience Blech. Enjoy the podcast.
[00:00:42] Leah, I have news. Oh, I love news. Tell me news. I have news. I know. Well, it's exciting news for me because now I have less than a month to see my favorite band again. Oh. So three weeks away to see Rush again in San Jose. They've been all over the place and other coming to the Bay Area, which I'm very excited to see. So I did a little hack. I had to pay for it.
[00:01:12] So there's a new documentary about Neil Peart, who was the drummer for Rush, who passed away in 2020. And it's a really great documentary. And it was only airing on the CBC in Canada. And, you know, Canada and the United States right now don't have the best relations, as I'm sure you know. And so there was no way to watch it. So but I learned about VPNs, which I get something that's not new to me. But I'm sorry, Kevin. No, no, no. I know.
[00:01:41] It's like it's like Kevin. Windows 95 called and they want their they want their they want their floppies back. No, no, no. So it's not that I didn't know. It's just that it was an end around for me to be able to watch. Yeah. The show. And basically just for a Canadian. Just saying that I was. Yes, that's correct. And I'm like, wow, that's that was. You know, this is this is why people get lots of applicants from out of country. I know. That's true, by the way. You're right.
[00:02:10] Yeah. That's thank you for highlighting that. Anyway, I got to see the documentary. I was very happy, a little teary because it's kind of celebrating his his life. And so anyway, I'm excited about doing that. But on the other end of that, I've been now digging into our candy data for 2026. And I know and we want to talk about kind of candidate experience and kind of touch on that a little bit more and the state of where it's at.
[00:02:38] And since I did a workshop as of this recording last week in Dallas and sharing some of the new data points that were eventually will be part of the research reports. And that the good news and then this will be kind of the segue. The good news is that globally we're seeing some some a few more positive trends that we haven't seen for the past years, but not in the United States, not in North America.
[00:03:04] It is it is it is you may remember me saying this before to the resentment rate as we measure it, the candidate resentment rate, the percentage of candidates who say I will never do anything with that employer again. And that's the highest it's ever been in our data and research in North America, i.e. the primarily that's the states because America does include Canada. Canada, our friends to the north and also some data for Mexico as well.
[00:03:32] But primarily the negative resentment is the U.S. and the states. So we can unpack that further. But that's again global trend. We're seeing some positive move, at least in our data, which is great to see. But for those. So last thing real quick, salary professionals, management and senior leadership candidates. Globally, I'd argue, but especially here. It's still a crap market. Yeah, it's interesting, right?
[00:04:00] So the latest numbers we have are still the August numbers because this is still end of September. Yeah, we're recording. And at that point, we had just about the same number of job openings as we had people who were unemployed. So we're at a one for one, which I don't know if you remember. You go back a few years and that got up to, you know, almost a two for one. But what's interesting is it was I remember that. You look at the job segments, we're in a total mismatch market.
[00:04:29] So the jobs open and the people unemployed just do not match each other, right? We have very little overlap in those groups. And so we continue to be, you know, can't hungry in the hourly deskless workforce, right? We still need nurses. We still need construction workers. We still need retail and hospitality service workers. We don't have any.
[00:04:56] And we have lots of people who are professionals, educated, who are out of work. And so there's just this deep mismatch in the market. So while the unemployment rate looks at, you know, to the number of jobs as a one for one, there's a job for everyone. And there isn't actually a job for everyone. I think that's where we're starting to see a lot of this frustration. And then the second thing I just want to start us off with, you said something about globally, if the resentment rate has gone or is not as low.
[00:05:26] It's going down globally, but not in the states, no. Right. And what's interesting is I thought the UK was going to be a bloodbath as well because they rolled out legislation earlier this year, regulation earlier this year. Basically made it very, very, very hard for employers to fire people in their first 90 days. So they used to have this probationary period where you were really bad fit.
[00:05:52] They could exit you with limited resistance. And then they pushed out new regulation that basically said you own them from day one. You can't get rid of them. It's very, very hard if someone is, you know, lies on their process or, you know, you turn out to have none of the skills you think they had. They actually killed most of that back. And so employers all sort of paused at the beginning of the year at the hiring in the UK.
[00:06:22] And I think they've released that and they're hiring again. So I think that's part of not your only place, but it's, you know, an example or microcosm of where we're seeing regulation get peeled back. That's allowing hiring to start going again. And I think that's part of what's happening, at least in the UK market. But let's talk about the US. The resentment is up. It's been up and continuing to go up, though, for a long time. We haven't had a dip in a while. No.
[00:06:47] So in our data, it has been increasing basically since going back to post-COVID. So you may remember me talking about this before. In our data, the resentment rate actually plummeted in 2020, which was completely counterintuitive to what we thought we were going to see.
[00:07:13] Candidates were more forgiving that year, even though there was millions of people out of work because of the pandemic. It did start to spike again. So what happened is that you had like that great tech talent hoarding. Yep. Once we started coming out of the pandemic in 2021 and we saw it start climbing then, and it was just on this all the way through last year. It was climbing everywhere in our data.
[00:07:35] And, you know, we have smaller representation in EMEA, APAC, and Latin America in our data sets overall because it's dependent on the companies that are participating, hiring in those regions. But this was the first year since 2021 where they've definitely started to just drop dramatically.
[00:07:58] Now, part of that positive skewed is that the companies that participated this year definitely have high ratings. There's a positive skewed just in those companies. And that's great to see companies that have a stronger candidate experience, that they're measuring it in our research and they're winning our awards. But in North America, and it's not – I mean, it's across industries too.
[00:08:24] It's transportation, education, automotive, pharmaceutical, food and beverage even, technology. And then manufacturing not as much in the U.S. But – and then other markets that are driving growth like healthcare, some hospitality even, they fare much better when it comes to more positive experience and resentment.
[00:08:50] But it's – I mean, I can tell you – so in the aggregate data for North America, again, i.e. primarily it's the state's data, the U.S., the management. So management and senior leadership resentment, right? Just that segment is 20%. That's one in five candidates who say, I will never do anything with these companies that I had applied to again. That's really high. And that's pretty much what it was last year as well.
[00:09:17] It's fluctuated a little bit with – but salary professional is still high too. It's at 15%. And, you know, these are still – when you think about the overall percentages, yes, they're relatively lower. And when we still have – and those candidates who said they did have a great experience actually is on the rise. A little bit in North America, but mostly everywhere else, the converse of the resentment. But the reality is that it is a rough market and that mismatch that you're talking about.
[00:09:47] And then there's also the data where over a million people have left the marketplace in the past year, year and a half, right? Not looking – We have a lower participation rate, but we also have an increasing retirement rate. So we have a combination, right? Well, there's a – but there's a mixed bag with that because I remember writing a piece – this is a few months ago now, I think –
[00:10:14] where there are – across multiple sectors, there are actually older people not retiring. Now, unless you're in an industry like, for example, if you're a pilot. One of my best friends – I'll make you. Yeah, 65 is mandatory. Congress a few years ago tried to raise it to 67 and the pilots union said no. And so that didn't go through. But yes, pilots, yes.
[00:10:43] But there are other law firms. Senior partners aren't leaving. Yeah. And I mean, the list goes on for different kinds of industries and pockets. And that is causing angst for those down here, right? Because those opportunities – and again, if you want to think about – because since the Gen X, which is – I'm kind of at the high end of Gen X, but we're kind of supposedly checking out,
[00:11:13] although that's not really happening, then the millennials themselves, they're like – they're hitting a backstop right now because their folks aren't leaving. And I mean, it's already that market anyway. Again, the media has been calling it low hire, low fire. That's true. I heard it. Job hugging and employment hugging. Yeah, I know. I love hugging. We're hugging. But it is happening, right? But we're not hugging, though. No one's hugging.
[00:11:42] No, what they're doing is we're holding on for dear life. It's really – that's the hug. So if you want to think about the end of the movie Titanic when there wasn't enough room for Jack on the plank with Rose – do you know what I'm talking about? Yes. You saw Titanic. I did see it. I mean, I think that's more of what we're talking about than – that's so funny that how all these terms that the media comes up with, even our own industry calling it that different stuff.
[00:12:12] Just people aren't going anywhere because those same people that you were talking about, they can't find the roles that are open because they're not matching for them. There's nowhere for them to go. Right. So they're going to do everything they can to stay in their role. As long as they can. As long as they can and be valuable. In retirement. Well, you've also got – I mean, some other things to consider, right? We've got an issue where – what is it? In 2032, Social Security is going to go belly up?
[00:12:42] Oh, yeah. Unless something's done about it. But we have a deficit right now that's at $40 trillion. Yeah, we are in a very bad spot as an economy. I was listening to some economists talk, by the way, about – even though nobody's still willing to go to – when is the tipping point of when our debt – if we're 120% of GDP
[00:13:05] now, of where that tipping point is of the point of no return or whatever that means or a lot of pain beyond that? Nobody's willing to – we don't know, but we've never been here before, though. And now – because the – and sorry, I'm throwing econ junkie stuff at you right now because I love this stuff. But when post – during COVID, or even going back to the – well, the Great Recession,
[00:13:32] but post-COVID as well, when interest rates – everything was really low for a while. Yep. It didn't – it didn't – it wasn't – it didn't have the same impact as it is now with them because the Fed just raised interest rates. They're super high. Mortgages are over 7%. 7%, yeah. Nobody can – nobody's buying a house for that. Nope. And the rates that we got when we refinance multiple times, we're never going to see 3% or less again ever in our lifetime. It's gone.
[00:14:01] And so, I mean, it's – all of these things, though, are also impacting when people – even me, when I'm looking at a few years away, like, what does that phase out look like for me, right, with Social Security and our retirement and people aren't leaving? So that's preventing mobility from below them. A lot of the millennial segment, especially the older millennials now, which there are older millennials now, right?
[00:14:30] Are you a little – are you millennial? I am – well, it depends on who you ask. I'm either – I didn't mean to put you on the spot right now. I mean, the last of the exes, the first of the millennials, or a zennial, depending upon how I get classified. I mean, that one – What the hell is a zennial? Zennial. Oh, that's like the in-between thing? Like an ex-millennial, a zennial. I'm a zennial. Okay. It means – You can be whatever – you can be whatever you want.
[00:15:00] You know, my mom said that too. You can be whatever you want. There's this group in between where they basically – you grew up, you know, where you did not have a cell phone. You still had a phone with a cord. Yeah. Right? And you probably had a TV you had to walk over to and push the – change the knob or push a button. And – but you're computer literate, and you've grown up in technology, so you still speak
[00:15:25] kind of fluent millennial technology, but you have the experiences of drinking out of a hose all summer long. Well, see, I'm at the – I'm at the closer – the top end of Gen X is where I am. And my wife's – I'm six years older than my wife, but she's still Gen X too. And then our kids are definitely Gen Z, hands down.
[00:15:51] But anyway, the whole point that I was saying is that that is – that the lack of movement is preventing mobility for many people across industries now too. So it's kind of like this – you were kind of in place or stuck in place. And it's not hugging. It's holding on for dear life. Definitely. It's what it is right now. And, you know, and then you've got – inflation continues to rise, and the feds just raise rates,
[00:16:19] and Social Security is looming. And that's top of – not only top of mind for me, but for our own kids. Like what's going to happen, right? If – There's a great article today that came out from Reuters about – because you mentioned our debt, the U.S. economic debt. Can we grow our way out of it? What is the solution? Higher taxes or more jobs?
[00:16:47] And, you know, the opinion right now is that it can't be more jobs. We don't have more jobs to have. We're – that isn't our option, which means higher taxes is how we get out of this debt situation we're in. So it's interesting. And that's not going to happen with this – with the administration that's in power right now. Sure. No. Absolutely not. So let's talk about how this plays out to our candidates though, right? So, you know, before we started recording, we were talking ahead of time.
[00:17:14] And I said, you know, one of the things I'm seeing is that pendulum swing that happens. And, you know, go back in time. We're both – we've both been through this more than once. Yes. You know, thinking about – I'm thinking about 2007, 2008 was one of the pendulums where started to see candidate experience get worse. And one of the ways we make it worse is we front load onboarding into our applications.
[00:17:39] And we ask candidates to give up a lot more data and information earlier, create more friction, more barriers. People who really want the job will go through this. That attitude that we've seen, you know, come up every time there is an economic downswing. I'm seeing it again. Time for a TalentSync break. The TalentSync podcast is brought to you by JobSync and the Surveil Candy Benchmark Research Program.
[00:18:05] The candies helps you and your organization measure and understand your overall candidate experience ratings from pre-application to onboarding. Benchmark your candidate experience today. Go to surveil.com slash C-A-N-D-S candies. I saw a company the other day asked to put social security number in the middle of the application. And for me, what's interesting about that is, one, it's a very outdated perspective, right,
[00:18:34] to out to front load your – Very much so, yes. Just to make more friction. But the second thing that is in the back of my head as I was looking at this the other day is, you know, the increasing amount of fraud of non-real companies trying to steal candidates' data. Yes. And the first thing they're asking for are things like social security numbers. Yes. So I just – I'm looking at it as employers going, you guys don't want to be associated to that.
[00:19:01] And I understand you're drowning and you need a solution to manage candidate volume because that is an actual problem. You know, the number of times I've talked to companies that said I got 1,600 applicants last night. Yep. 1,600. Yes. Right? And so you've got AI applies. You've got real people applying. You've got desperate people. You've got casual lookers who are holding on with their fingernails but, like, also applying to some jobs.
[00:19:30] And, you know, there are very few jobs in the professional space available to apply to. So when you put one up, especially if it's remote, especially if it's a business analyst or some sort of project management role where any industry will do, right? You don't need to have some of these, you know, deep industry experience qualifications. You're just getting inundated with applications. And then you have the foreign applies using VPN bringing in another swath of people.
[00:20:00] Hey, in my defense, I just wanted to watch the documentary, right? That's all I wanted to do. You didn't apply for some Canadian jobs while you're at it? I didn't apply for any jobs. I just wanted to watch the documentary. That's all I wanted to do. Canada wants you. I'm just saying. Canada really wants people. Well, I know. Well, there's that. There's that, too. But you're totally right.
[00:20:19] And like, so right now, this year, the employers that we work with on the benchmark, especially, just over 50% said that they're experiencing fake and fraud candidates. 100%. They are. Oh, yeah. And yeah, for sure they are. And then only about 40% have things in place, processes and or technologies. I mean, there's many platforms out there now, like endorsed Yardstick.
[00:20:45] There's a bunch that are helping companies to try to mitigate that and identify those. Who those, that fraudulent. Because you've got, you've got, so there's like three buckets. I'm doing all the data reviews this year with the candy participants. And going through this and talking about AI, because again, that's something else that is impacting candidate experience. And, you know, it's still the most prevalent negative, two of them, actually.
[00:21:13] The two most prevalent negative sentiments in our data this year and last year are AI selecting me out automatically. When most companies still aren't screening with AI. There are more doing it. Yes. Yep. But, and that will continue to grow and change because it's kind of this AI escalation. They don't have a choice but to lean on technology to help them with the volume of fraud and fake. Right. Is growing too. So anyway, so there's that.
[00:21:40] But then there you have the individuals who are also, where the hell was I going with that? Ah! I was, I was on, I was on, I was on a track. But just so that, oh, sorry. You have candidates who embellish themselves. That's as old as recruiting time. Oh, old as time. As old as time. There's that. That's, that's, that's not any different. But then you have outright fabricated and fake candidates.
[00:22:10] That are being, that are spam. And then you have, and or nefarious groups or individuals that are trying to infiltrate companies like what's been going on with North Korea. What we've talked about before. And I talked to. The FBI, right? When you find those, call the FBI. The first week of the reviews I did, two of the companies. And again, it's, these are, these are large companies. Yes. That said they had, they had to shut that down. And it's primarily had to do with tech positions and IT positions. Yep.
[00:22:40] Where they've been getting that. So, but this AI escalation of the, the, with the increased fraud and then having to try to mitigate and deal with that. Is, is, is, is a struggle right now for, especially, especially high volume companies, mid-sized to global enterprise that have a volume of jobs that they're trying to screen for. And can it, so that AI selected me out.
[00:23:07] And here's the other one that's, that technology has been good and bad for. But every, and you, and you know this too, Leah, most companies do their darndest to ensure that they are giving closure to every applicant. Yes. It's not always a hundred percent, but they really, I mean, today everybody's getting the acknowledgement. If you've been rejected, you're getting that, that, that, that email that goes out.
[00:23:35] It might go into your spam folder. Well, that's part of the, that's part of the problem too. For sure. But one, but in our data though, this is the past couple of years, there's, there's still the stubborn negative sentiment layer of candidates who say that they were ghosted and they didn't hear back. And now this year we've, we're hearing it's more post interview. It's not even about the point of application. Wow. They're saying post interview. It is a problem.
[00:24:04] And, but employers tell me that they are responding. So where, where is, I guess that, that's the thing I always try to, that I try to get to every year when we're looking at our data. Where is that? Where is it at? Where is it meeting? Where's the actual technology? Technology, again, it's supposed to help be help to enable you to respond to everybody in a, in a timely way, especially if you have a high volume, but it can still a big chunk of candidates.
[00:24:32] And now more post interview saying that they're not hearing back and they're, they're being ghosted. And that's, that's especially in North America and the U S and where we've seen part of the reason of the spike and resentment this year is because of that too. And it, but it doesn't, it doesn't jive though, you know, because employers, we have the ability, we control the dials to respond to everybody. So, I mean, right. Yeah, I agree. And I think there's, I think there's a couple of things.
[00:25:01] I do think that after interview employers, I think they do in fact inform everyone are really, really close. Yeah. That's what I think too. I think it's gone sideways is they probably deserved a phone call and they got an automated email. Yes. Yes. If you use work day, I mean, to cook on the work day home, which never actually made it to you. You should have to log in to see it. I mean, I think there's a lot of technology gaps that come in there as well. That could be problematic.
[00:25:31] Yeah. But I think ultimately I do, I I'm going to choose to believe that employers overwhelmingly, especially post interview do now, before that, I will say, I'm not sure that it's happening in earlier stages. And this is why the number of companies that don't actually close a job, right? You think about evergreen roles. You think about these roles that stay open.
[00:25:58] Well, if you don't disposition the candidates out, they just sit there and collect. They also don't get that notification. So until you do something with candidates that have come in, they're just going to sit in a pool, which, you know, for all the candidate pools that we call them, they're kind of candidate swamps lately. Right. So we got to do, you got to do something. And I think that is where one of the biggest gaps is around candidates who apply, especially to an evergreen position that we don't close out the role. We don't shut it down.
[00:26:26] So it doesn't have an automated disposition name for all of the candidates. They just sit there and aggregate. I think that's probably the biggest source. Yeah. You're not wrong there. What's related to that, and I'm curious, is that I know that there's perpetual evergreen hiring that goes on in high volume positions and you're constantly posting and getting. But is what it with your work in the space and the gut and because I, I just don't hear this from the companies that I've worked with.
[00:26:56] And I don't know that they are posting ghost jobs. That's a whole nother thing. That's a different thing. I know. But what's what's with that, though? Because this is something else that impacts candidate experience. So this is anecdotal. I talked to a woman the other day, young lady. She just graduated recently. She applied for entry level sales position. Yeah. She went through three rounds of interviews. She felt really good about it. She was super excited.
[00:27:24] And then she got on with the hiring manager, said, you know, I think you're really great at interviewing. Like, this is really excited. But we're not actually hiring for this role. We're just talking to people ahead of when we do want to hire. So, and yes, and I mean, I've, I've, and that's, that's what will continue. That will cause a negative resentment spike. After three, three rounds of interviews. And I got to tell you, that is, I think, another one of those misconceptions.
[00:27:51] Like, we should, we should be talking to all the time and interviewing them. And then when we're ready to hire, they'll be ready. No, that's be ready. They won't be ready. They will not be ready. They are going to go find another job and hate you. But do you have any data at all of what you, what that incidence might be? Because I know. But there is legislation that's sitting in the New York, past the New York assembly. It's sitting on the governor's desk to enact laws around ghost jobs and preventing them, making it illegal.
[00:28:21] Because a lot of the company, well, especially the highest rated companies in our benchmark research that have the better candidate experience ratings across the board. They're not doing that. Or they're really working hard to ensure that their hiring managers aren't going to do that. Because they, I mean, that's just, that's a false advertising. And you're really, I mean, that's just, that will cause a big spike in resentment.
[00:28:50] If you're doing that to candidates and allowing that to happen. I mean, I understand that for high, again, high volume, continuous hiring, evergreen hiring, you're constantly, like, whether it's call center or customer service. But you're hiring, though. You're actually hiring. Constantly. But if you're doing that to just see what's out there, I mean, that you're not, and this, this, I had it, this came up at our workshop that we just did at Schneider Electric this last week of this recording.
[00:29:20] And the, they, there was a, we talked a lot about hiring manager interview training and how the importance of it and for consistency and how, you know, they had some hiring managers that were basically really had the hubris of saying people want to, they want to work here. Why would I, I'm not going to go out of my way to like, and they're like, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works.
[00:29:45] I mean, I understand it's, I know it's not a candidate market now, but I mean, oh my God, it's, it's, you're just going to, you're going to be driving people away. And if you are struggling to fill the roles that you have to fill, you're just going to be repelling people. If this is, these are practices that you're putting in place. I just haven't heard, at least with the companies I've worked with, of that being anything. I don't think it's as much of a enterprise issue as it is. Smaller companies.
[00:30:15] Small and mid-sized business where you maybe don't really have a recruiter running the show and you have an HR person who helps with recruiting. So the hiring manager is doing a lot of it on their own. Yeah. Less formal processes about getting jobs approved and funded, right? If you think about the, the complexity of an enterprise, like a role doesn't go up for hiring until it's been funded, approved and funded, right?
[00:30:39] You have to fund the role, make sure that there's comp, there is salary to pay this person, but you get into a smaller business where those processes don't exist. Those checks and balances don't exist. Yeah. And you can allow for a lot more bad behavior because you're just, hey, you know what, let's put this up. See, see who's out there. Let's temperature check the market. Let's see if anybody's out there that could be interesting, right? That is a very common behavior as you get into the small and mid-sized companies.
[00:31:08] And that's where I think you started seeing some of the things. Yeah. I think that's, well, just, yeah. And I'm, again, I know that I agree with you. I think it would be smaller to mid-sized companies, but I just think it's egregious to do that. I mean, and especially in a market like this, especially for salary professionals and above who have been on the market for a while, who are struggling to find those matches for what they potentially need. And I just, yeah, I just find that to be.
[00:31:34] So, folks, note to self, don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't let your hiring managers do that. Well, this, again, thank you again, Leah, for, you know, you know me. I will always open. Canon Experience, we could always bring that up in anything we talk about because in recruiting and hiring because it's always a part of it. But definitely looking forward to getting our research reports out later in the year.
[00:32:00] But that's, those are some of the realities that we're saying. And it's, you know, it is a, it's just still, I mean, even with the numbers that we see, it's just the feel, it's not a great market. The feel of it, it's not a great market. And anybody that, anybody, anybody who's in TA that's been on the market, they can definitely tell you they've experienced pretty horrendous candidate experiences, actually. And I continue to hear that as well.
[00:32:30] Even if some, I heard some indicators that recruiting hires ticked up a little bit, but I don't have the data in front of me to show that. Well, I think, yeah, I haven't seen it yet. But, you know, again, September numbers haven't come out yet. Right. And we're going into one of the big peak hiring. Although I've been adjusted for that. But anyway. All right. Well, that was a depressing note. Oh, God. I know, man. I know.
[00:32:55] Well, at least like I said at the beginning, though, there are positive indicators in our global data this year. It's just that in the United States, it's not, again, it's not that great overall. Not great. Right. An interest rates. We'll see you. Yeah. Prices are going up. Like, that's all going to contribute. All of those things. Anyway, so let's think happy thoughts. Happy thoughts. Until the next time we meet, Leah.
[00:33:21] And everybody, thanks for getting synced with us and listening to The Talent Sync. And Leah, it's always a pleasure. Likewise, Kevin. Bye now. All right. Bye. Thank you for listening to The Talent Sync Podcast, a surveilled candy and job sync collaboration. More episodes soon. Subscribe to our podcast via your favorite podcast player today. And stay synced with The Talent Sync.
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