440: How to rebuild company culture after a massive layoff - with Daniel Stokes (ALL-STAR)

[00:00:00] Okay guys, raise your hand if you've been through a layoff. Now keep your hand raised if you kept your job through it and are faced with the reality of attempting to rebuild the company culture after that massive layoff. Woof! You are what people call a survivor. And my goodness, that's a lot of pressure on your shoulders to help the organization recover, right?

[00:00:26] Well, my special guest today is culture lead and event planner Daniel Stokes and he's simplifying how to rebuild company culture after a massive layoff. You know, both Daniel and I have been through a layoff at a very large organization. We come to the table with practical advice that you can begin to implement at your own company immediately. Here's how.

[00:00:50] He shares what the very first step is that your HR or people and culture team must take immediately after a layoff has been announced at your organization. Plus, why he believes that culture repair is everyone's job and not just the responsibility of HR. And, okay, let's face it, trust is lost after a layoff.

[00:01:14] He talks about the ways that managers and senior leadership can work together to rebuild that trust with their workforce, one conversation at a time. Plus, we talk about the one major mistake that organizations tend to make after announcing a layoff that is, let me just tell you, a massive blunder.

[00:01:34] We also talked about how to create a safe space for employee listening, you know, through forums, surveys, town halls, and more where employee feedback can get captured and then actioned upon. And ultimately, we implore everyone listening to this to consider one simple idea. Instead of cutting people and culture budgets after a layoff, what a better solution would be to improve employee engagement and rebuild company pride.

[00:02:03] But before we dive into this episode, I just want to say thank you so much for tapping that subscribe button. We've got listeners now in 155 countries all around the world. So hello to our listeners in Pittsburgh, Liverpool, Calgary, and our new friends in Barcelona. We're so glad you're tuning in. Okay, it's time now to dive into today's conversation with people and culture event planner, Daniel Stokes, as he simplifies how to rebuild company culture after a massive layoff. Are you ready?

[00:02:33] Let's dive in. You're listening to The Simplifiers Podcast, where we take topics in work and in life and simplify them. Mary will help you break it all down, figure it out, and spark you to do the thing. It's time to simplify. Here's your host, mentor, and undercover superhero, Mary Baird.

[00:03:01] Hello, and welcome back to The Simplifiers Podcast, where we take topics in work and in life and simplify them. And friends, if you've been following along for the last few weeks, boy, we have been taking a deep dive into everything that's related to the job market right now. And this one, I think it's going to take a little bit different of an angle.

[00:03:20] Because, you know, let's face it, if you are in people and culture or HR, you are the people people, the people who love people and want to keep us connected and keep us thriving and keep us having our company pride so high and loving where we work. But you look at the flip side, in 2023, as per layoffs.info, 262,000 people were laid off in the tech industry alone in the United States.

[00:03:49] And what I want to talk about today and simplify is, well, how do you rebuild company culture after a massive layoff? Because, boy, howdy, that's when everything changes. The energy shifts at your company. I believe that Daniel Stokes is the right person to talk to to simplify this specific topic. And he is our special guest today. He is passionate about connecting the world through intentional programs, events, and experiences.

[00:04:19] He's got over eight years of experience in the corporate culture building realm with big, large-scale corporate events and more. He's played a pivotal role in building community at companies like Brex and DoorDash and Meta. He's a seasoned professional. And I believe that he also combines his expertise with a genuine love for people, making him a pioneer in the space of people and culture. And again, helping to create spaces where people love to come to work.

[00:04:46] So I'd like to welcome to The Simplifiers Podcast, Daniel Stokes. Hey, Daniel. Hello, hello. How are you doing? I am so glad you're here. Now, let's go back to what I said at the top of this episode. 262,000. And you were one of them. Yes. And I was one of them. One of the lucky two. We have been flung back out into the world.

[00:05:12] And, you know, I imagine if not by now, there will be a great company that scoops both of us up, you know, knowing the things that we bring to the table. But, you know, I've been through this once before, many, many, many years ago. And it sucks. Let's just call a spade for what a spade is. A layoff stinks, right? Yeah, totally. It's definitely one of those things where it's like, it's obviously unexpected when you're on the receiving end.

[00:05:37] And also on the flip side, if you're the one of the individuals that stays after a layoff, there's just so many emotions that are going through your mind because it's like these are friends. These are colleagues, individuals that you built bonds with that within a matter of minutes, like they're deactivated. You can no longer communicate with them. You're like trying to find them on LinkedIn. Like it's a lot. A lot goes into a layoff regardless of what side of the spectrum you fall on. Yeah, the scramble afterward.

[00:06:06] And, you know, let's talk about that because there is sort of that survivor syndrome. You know, the people that didn't get cut from a layoff and what they can feel afterwards. There's sort of that guilt of like, well, why did I get to keep my job when this person over here is clearly incredible and does so much to build up the culture here at this company? It makes no sense. Can you talk a little bit to that? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I've been through layoffs before where I was one of the survivors of a layoff.

[00:06:36] And now being one who did not survive a layoff, you know, it's definitely one of those things of like, you know, was my job function not important? Did my work not matter? And it's like these are obviously natural feelings to feel. And then you have, again, individuals reaching out to you like, oh, my goodness, like I can't believe you of all people got cut. Like everything that you did was so important and so impactful. And so truly, you know, you have to be able to step back and really realize that it's not your fault. It's nothing personal.

[00:07:05] Like at the end of the day, like it's just the nature of the world that we're in right now. And so really being able to realize that like you are important, your work is impactful. It's just right now the business has to make some very unfortunate decisions and letting you go and letting your position go as well as one of those decisions. Yeah. And so let's talk to those who are listening to us right now who are survivors, who the ones that didn't get cut. What would you recommend?

[00:07:33] Like this, again, is coming from your years and years and years of experience in people and culture, program management and all of that. What do you feel is the first step that the HR or people and culture team really need to take immediately after a layoff has been announced at their organization?

[00:07:52] Yeah, I mean, I think the immediate thing that, you know, individuals in this space who are on the people team culture space is ensure that the company is giving those employees that are left space. You know, there's so much going on through their head, like, you know, automatically, how much is my workload going to increase? You know, is the company in a good spot? You know, is there going to be another layoff coming? And will I, you know, not survive that layoff?

[00:08:18] So really just being able to say, like, hey, we understand that what happened today was not something that we wanted to do. And, like, we just want everyone to take a step back, close your laptops for the rest of the day, focus on yourself, focus on your families, focus on your well-being. And obviously, you know, working on the back end to have all that, those communications ready to go out, you know, cancel non-critical meetings.

[00:08:41] Like, yes, we understand that we have jobs because we have to get work done, but we have to really be human in this aspect and really kind of cancel non-critical meetings. And, you know, make sure that you're sharing resources that the company maybe have access to around, like, mental health and wellness just to really focus on the human aspect of having an employee and making sure that they are taking care of themselves and really allowing them the space to just take a deep breath and breathe for a little bit.

[00:09:11] I want to put a pin in what you just said, the human aspect of all of this, because while, you know, a layoff, let's be real, a layoff doesn't happen overnight. It is a thing that is planned for months and months in advance and done in a certain time period to help either make the numbers look right for shareholders or, you know, just to ensure that the company is positioned for success for future. But the reality is there's humans involved on both sides of this coin.

[00:09:39] And I think that people and culture teams and HR teams that have ever done massive org restructures or change management know this, but sometimes forget. I think that it's not crisis communications right in the moment because theoretically you've been planning this for months or even weeks. Let's give you a little bit of credit if it's last minute. Yeah. But you should still be able to map out before the day happens to say, OK, these are the five things that we're going to roll out in the first 24 hours.

[00:10:09] You know, this communication here, this town hall there, this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And have a plan of attack, right? Yeah, totally. And I think it's you really have to kind of like walk backwards and making sure like you're dotting your I's and crossing your T's and truly thinking on both ends of the people that are getting laid off and the people who are surviving any and every question that could possibly come up.

[00:10:34] Because you're then going to have individuals who no longer have access to, you know, HR immediately that have been cut off from, you know, the Slack channel, their emails. Right. They may be hitting up old coworkers and being like, hey, can you find out like when this is happening? Can you but really being able to clearly and concisely have all of that information readily available on both ends. So when the people are getting let go, letting them know like specifically, you know, this is when your severance package is going to come through.

[00:11:04] These are the steps to ensure you have, you know, insurance for X amount of time, a period. But then also communicating that information to the employees that are staying. Because like I said earlier, like these are people that you've built bonds with, you know, you've gone on off sites with you. So many people have maybe even penetrated your personal life that you really have grown connected to. And not only are you feeling guilty, but you're also like wondering like, is my friend okay? Is my colleague okay?

[00:11:31] And you want to be able to make sure you're offloading all of that information and giving the employees that are staying just a little bit of glimmer of hope that there was that human aspect thought about it. Again, I think in the nature that we are in right now in, you know, corporate America, layoffs are kind of expected. But it's more so like how the layoff is handled, how it's communicated, you know, people aren't chasing to get answers.

[00:11:55] I think that is some of the really critical things that actually differentiate setting yourself up for success to go move forward and start building that, rebuilding that trust with the employees that are actually staying at a company. And what I hear under all of that is empathy. Yes, empathy, empathy, empathy.

[00:12:14] It's just simply understanding if the tables were turned and you were in that role that just got eliminated, what would you want from as resources from your HR team, you know, in that exit conversation, whether it's an FAQ page that has links to all of my benefits.

[00:12:32] So I know exactly the contact name, the website, the phone number to call to for next steps or, you know, who is my personal contact at the company as I'm trying to navigate these things. Because you don't, you don't think about it when you're happily employed. You don't, you just keep chugging along and nothing the wiser. I think empathy goes a long way in helping what can be very shocking for people when it happens, especially when it seems like the company is soaring and things are going great, right?

[00:13:02] Yes. Record-breaking profits and sales and revenue. And you're like, woohoo, can't wait for my bonus. Like, ha ha ha ha. Yep. Exactly, exactly. So we talked offline and one of the things that you said struck me, you said that culture repair is everyone's job and not just the job of HR or the people in culture teams. Why do you believe that?

[00:13:26] Yeah, I mean, I think like, obviously, when we're brought into these positions to be on people and culture teams, we're brought in to build programs for employees, build programs for the people at the company to tap into, to be able to, you know, develop their own skills, to make connections.

[00:13:43] But like me as a culture curator, if I'm the only one showing up to these events and these programs, it's going to reflect back on leadership as in, this isn't important, this isn't valuable. Why do we have these programs? Let's cut the budget. Let's not focus on that. And so I think a lot of times employees are kind of just like, ah, like, I don't have time for that or like, that's for like new hires.

[00:14:09] And it's just like, no, like, studies show that employees that are tapped into this type of work are truly the ones that are getting the most out of their employer and are really the ones that really show up every day really motivated and coming to work. And so when you're able to show that and, you know, whatever way you're capturing metrics that say like 60% of the company taps into this, this is going to look back on from leadership and be like, okay, this is important.

[00:14:34] And so I think people really have to understand that like, we're not just doing this to do this. We're not just doing this to check off a box. We're really doing this because we want you to feel something and to feel that connection to this job. You know, you spend more time at work, whether it's virtual, hybrid, more time in that space than you do outside of it. And so it's just like these positions were created to make sure that you're enjoying the time that you're putting into this space. Yeah.

[00:15:04] And let's just go back to the immediate aftershock of when a layoff happens. Regardless of where you sit on the fence, whether you were eliminated or you stayed, there is a shock. You lose those relationships that the people you eat lunch with every single day and talk about love is blind every single day or whatever. And then immediately that's just shut off. It's hard. It's hard for both sides of the fence.

[00:15:29] And I imagine that also for survivors, they sometimes they just don't know what to say. And so they say nothing at all. And even that hurts if you've been eliminated and you're just like, well, we were really close work friends and now there's nothing. Right. It's that awkwardness because again, it's just like, wow, I'm so grateful that I have a job. But it's also like, oh, my goodness. Like the person I was literally talking to five minutes ago about a project is no longer here.

[00:15:57] And we also had plans this weekend to hang out all the time of work. Like, and I've witnessed it many a times where people who you would assume will be the first person to text you, hit you up, don't reach out for like a week. And they're just like, I just want to give you space. And it's just like that can sting. That can hurt. But again, it's like I'm not going to hold it against that individual. But it's like that's just the nature of it all.

[00:16:23] Because at the end of the day, unless, you know, you're in the 1%, we work to help provide for our lives and, you know, pay bills. And so to know that, especially in a market where everyone is trying to find a job and, you know, there's more people looking for jobs than there are jobs. You just know the nature and the severity of like this individual is about to go through something that like I would not ever want to be in that position.

[00:16:51] And so it's really just being able to be like, again, that it all comes back to that human aspect. Like as awkward and uncomfortable as it may be, just like really put yourself in that person's shoes. Just send a quick text, you know, let them know that you're thinking about them. You know, maybe send them a job if that's as comfortable as you feel like communicating. Because a little bit goes a long way. You know, there's so many people that reached out to me who I hadn't heard from in years.

[00:17:17] And it's like, you know, thank you for sending me this job. Sometimes the jobs don't even align with my own career path. But it's just like to know that people are just thinking about me in that manner. It truly does go a long way. So it's just like, you know, let's all really add some empathy and human aspect to a lot of these interactions, regardless of where you fall on that fence when it comes to these layoffs. Yes.

[00:17:42] So if you're listening to us right now and you're a survivor recently of a layoff, I encourage you right now, press pause and go send a text message to one person right now. And that says, hey, I'm thinking of you. Well, how's your job search going right now? How can I help? That's it. You don't have to say anything else. Yeah. This episode is brought to you in part by Goodboy, helping HR teams compete for top talent.

[00:18:08] Goodboy helps midsize companies strengthen their employer brand, attract better candidates and fill open roles faster. From redesigning your careers page to running targeted recruitment campaigns, they'll help your company stand out in a crowded talent market. Visit goodboyagency.com forward slash simplifiers to learn more.

[00:18:28] So going back to kind of rebuilding company culture inside the company, the reality is this trust is lost after a layoff. Yeah, completely lost. Anything that you've done has been obliterated at this point. So what are ways that managers and senior leadership can really work together to rebuild that trust in your mind?

[00:18:50] Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is to, as management, as leadership, acknowledge, one, the trust is lost. And it's going to take some time to rebuild that. Like, you know, obviously there are people who are still there and they survived. And it shouldn't just go to like business as usual. You really have to acknowledge that we have done something that has really disrupted a lot of individuals' lives, a lot of teams' lives.

[00:19:17] Again, there's going to be a restructure of teams. There's going to be a restructure of workload. And we really just have to like address that from the beginning. And I think it's, you have to be open and you have to be honest and you have to be transparent. Let's not play the blame game of the macro, the micro environment. Like, no, like let's take accountability as a company and say, you know, because of X, Y, and Z from the board and where the industry is, we had to do X, Y, and Z. And this is why we did it.

[00:19:45] And obviously, I think there's sometimes you want to try to not be as transparent because you may have people who may leak it to some news place that will then run an article about, you know, how your company is running. But I think sometimes, you know, that's one of the risks you need to take to really maintain that trust. Because, you know, who knows, maybe you might find out more as an employee from that article than you heard from your actual employer. And which is, which has happened.

[00:20:13] And that is, whoop, that is just going to put you back 10 and further steps than where you were already after that layoff. So it's really trying to get ahead of everything and really just be open and honest about what is going on. And then it's like we said earlier, like really show empathy. Like for not only the employees that were let go, but the individuals that were still staying.

[00:20:39] Because it's, again, there's so much going through their minds that it's really hard to kind of just like close your laptop. And then the next day I wake up and be like, all righty, let me get back to this doc that I was building for this program. Like, is this program even still going to exist? Like, where are the workflows going to be now? Like, I do not know what's going on. And like, there's a lot of emotional damage that has been done. Again, also knowing that the market outside of this environment is not stable.

[00:21:07] So you really just have to be acknowledged and be really upfront and honest. Be very clear and concise in your communication. Don't make it a blame game and really, really, really, really show empathy to those employees that are still there. And I think that is, that will start to put you on the track to gaining trust.

[00:21:27] But you need to start hit that cycle of that continuation of the acknowledgement of the empathy of that clear and concise communication to then build it because it won't happen overnight. I agree. And while you're talking there, it made me kind of think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? So it's a pyramid. And by the way, anyone who's listening to us, anything that Daniel and I talk about, it will be in the show notes over at the simplifiers.com. You can find it there. But Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a pyramid.

[00:21:57] And at the very base level is safety and security. If you do not feel safe or secure in your work, it's impossible for you to rise up in the ranks of the pyramid and talk about community and talk about purpose, talk about anything that's a higher pursuit. Because you are scrambling to just feel safe. Just feel safe.

[00:22:19] This is incredibly important, especially for folks that are in people and culture or HR because you are stabilizing the ship. And so, you know, I love the things that you're saying there. Even the point where you provide some talking points, three or four questions for people, leaders and managers to take back to their teams and smaller groups and say, wow, that was big. Let's talk about it in a smaller format.

[00:22:44] Because, you know, let's face it, if you're at a town hall, you're probably not going to ask a question in front of 600 people. Exactly. Hey, is there going to be another round of layoffs soon? Am I okay? Because, like, you're never going to say that in that bigger format, right? Exactly. And so it's really, like, it's really about making sure you're addressing it at all levels. Obviously, you're going to want to address it at that town hall. But then in your smaller teams, really kind of try to build that and create that space to have that conversation all the way down to, like, your one-on-one.

[00:23:14] Because, again, maybe we don't want to talk about this in a larger team format. Maybe I just want to have this one-on-one conversation to truly let you know how I feel. So just really kind of making sure at all levels you're creating that space. And also, you know, as people leaders, providing managers with those talking points. Because, you know, I've worked with many managers who, or I would think something was so simple to comprehend. It's just, like, asking your employees and your teammates a simple question totally goes over their head.

[00:23:44] Because it's just not everyone is set up to think and process like that. So really making sure you're supplying these individuals with the tools beforehand. Because most of the time, managers are going to have some slight heads up about this actually happening. Who on their team is going to be impacted. You may know the relationships of your team better than anyone else. So just really making sure, you know, if you know X and Y and Z were really close at work and also outside of work. Maybe, you know, ask that pointed question.

[00:24:13] It's just, like, I know that you are actually close outside of work. Like, how are you really handling this? And allow them to have that space to either acknowledge it or don't acknowledge it. But just let them know that this is a space where if you need to, I am here. I may not have all the answers. But I want to provide that space for you to express how you're feeling. And I can then take that on to know, like, all right, I have to really, you know, think about X, Y, and Z in that manner. And just, again, it goes back to just really being a human.

[00:24:42] And, like, how would you like to be treated and handled in this situation? And try to apply that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that what I hear and what you're saying there is you're creating a safe space to listen. Not to always tell, you know, but to listen. And that goes a long way. That's authenticity there. If I know that my people leader doesn't have all the answers but is at least open to hear me, that means a lot to me.

[00:25:09] That starts to, my porcupine quills start to, you know, go down a little. And I go, okay, maybe I am safe for, you know, here and in this space. And he or she is working towards my best interests and all of that. Here's what my thoughts are. I'm very curious. I find that, like, to your point, this is not a time to be rolling out empathy training or critical conversations training.

[00:25:34] You know, if anything, you should probably have been having those training sessions months prior to the anticipated. Months prior. Let's not stumble on the critical conversations during post-layoff. But I am very curious. What's one major mistake that you feel companies make after announcing a layoff? I think the biggest mistake that companies make after a layoff is, like, revving up too fast.

[00:26:03] I think we obviously, again, we have jobs for a reason. You're working towards a product, working towards a goal. But I think there can be sometimes this very... Everything's fine. Hooray! Everything's fine. Like, we're all here. We're going to band together. And we're going to roll out 3.0 version of this company. And it's just kind of just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, what cult am I in right now? Like, we just cut a thousand people.

[00:26:28] And now we're just, like, cheering rah, rah, rah a week after this happened. Like, I think you really have to understand that, like, again, let's not... I don't want to, like, hear about this next vision that's going to, you know, we're going to be doing this, we're going to be doing that. And we're going to, like, take over this industry and take over this market. And we're going to work together. And, like, you know, we're all on the sales team or we're all on the marketing team or we're all in ops.

[00:26:54] And it's just like, whoa, I work on the design team. Like, obviously, you want to have, you know, some excitement around, like, the vision of a company. But doing it too soon after a layoff just really falls kind of tone deaf of just, like, wow, are we really just going to, like, move on like that? Like, as if what we just did didn't happen.

[00:27:19] And I think, again, that's just, like, one of the biggest things you can do to steer that, earning that trust back in the wrong way. Obviously, like, over time, yes. But, like, don't, like, you have to really give some space, give, you know, breathe. Like, obviously, if you have already mapped that out beforehand, like, you're sitting on it, you're probably excited to share it out. That's cool. But really give some space and time for everyone to kind of get their bearings, get back to, you

[00:27:49] know, some sense of normalcy before we roll out, like, all these new initiatives and pivots that we're taking as a company. For sure. Take a beat, right? Take a beat. A beat, right? And I think also companies that make massive mistakes when they spend a big splash of money on programs immediately after people have lost their jobs. And you go, wait, what? Like, wait, hang on. I thought we just laid off a bunch of people.

[00:28:18] We could have spent a portion of that money and kept 10 people, 20, 100 people. Yeah. I don't know where that mindset goes of just like, okay, we just cut all these people. Let's go throw this off site so we can buy. And it's just like, if you honestly pulled your employees and you were just like, if we had to do this big thing after a layoff or saved 50 people, I can almost say that without a

[00:28:48] shadow of a doubt, most of those individuals would vote to keep those 50 people. Because, again, like, it doesn't make sense and it doesn't seem fair to, you know, celebrate and do all these flashy things after you've literally just cut someone's livelihood off. And keep people that maybe were integral to how the way the business worked in the past.

[00:29:14] You know, I also wonder, it really feels to me that it's important to create safe spaces for people. And like we talked about employee listening, I really want to go deeper into that. So talk to me about ways that you've created safe spaces for employee listening and, you know, actually make it authentic. Meaning it's a place that employee feedback can actually be captured and actioned on. Not just sort of like, we're doing this for the optics of it, but we really, you know,

[00:29:44] we're not going to do anything with your feedback. Thanks a lot, Daniel. But like, really genuinely, what have you seen that works? Yeah, I mean, I think first, you know, before you even announced, hey, we're going to be capturing feedback from employees to, you know, figure out how we can improve. Like, I think as the people and leadership team really coming up with clearly defined goals

[00:30:09] and purpose of, you know, this type of session, whether it's in person, virtual, just really make sure that everyone is aligned. And there is a clear defined goal and path and process of how this is going to go. That way, when you announce it, you can clearly communicate that to the T of what exactly why we're doing it, how it's going to be done, and then what's going to be done with this information afterwards in hopes of doing X, Y, and Z.

[00:30:38] I think, again, it kind of goes back to that clear and open communication and all aspects of earning that trust back. So one, really defining those goals and outlining that communication timeline. And then making sure that you have a diverse group of individuals who are participating in this. And I mean, like, diverse in all ways from backgrounds, way of life, you know, people who are managers, people who are ICs, different levels, different orgs, because you want to

[00:31:06] be able to have a diverse slate of feedback because one team, one group of individuals may think one way, but another group may think another way. But having both of those teams share feedback could actually help you define a problem that helps address both of what they're asking for. So really making sure you're defining a diverse slate of individuals to kind of capture that feedback.

[00:31:32] And then also making sure that, you know, the questions that you're going to be asking are shared ahead of time. I think it's going to, one, make people feel a little bit more comfortable going to these sessions. They don't feel caught off guard. They can come prepared. There's no worse feeling than doing these types of sessions. And when you ask a question, it's just like silence. Mm-hmm. Because you're just sitting there like, oh, okay, no one's going to talk. I'll move on to the next question.

[00:32:01] Had that person or those individuals had that question a couple days in advance, one, they may have been able to actually sit on it and actually think about some really actionable things to share, but also feel comfortable sharing them. Because again, especially if you're, you know, in person, you know, not everyone is going to be able to on the spot come up with like 10 things to really save a company. You really want to be able to give people the time to actually sit on this and really

[00:32:27] think thoughtfully about how they want to communicate this and it not be coming from an emotional space, which is, it's totally fine to have emotions. But when you're thinking about ways to really improve the culture and really help the company, you want to make sure you're really thinking, you know, logically and really kind of grounded. But then also lastly, provide a space for people to provide feedback anonymously. Because at the end of the day, you're, you're not everyone's going to feel comfortable speaking out in front of individuals.

[00:32:56] So if it's fully anonymous, or if it's a one-on-one session, you know, again, of diverse minds and individuals, but making sure that you're able to capture this feedback, capture these thoughts in every way, shape and possible that applies to and appeals to a wide range of individuals. I love that you said that because I think that that's so incredibly important. Again, if safety and security is at jeopardy for people, the last thing that I think that

[00:33:25] most people are going to do is raise their hand and ask the real question that's on their hearts and on their minds in front of senior leadership or in front of their boss. They're too nervous to be the sort of tall weed that pokes out from the grass level, right? Exactly. It's the one that gets cut, right? So I think that having a space for anonymous feedback to be shared is really important. It made me think about, I run postmortems as writing workshops a lot. And it's very simple.

[00:33:53] You can create Google Docs for everybody that's on the team and you're in person, you're together and you're facilitating the conversation and saying, okay, we're going to spend five minutes on this next question. And the question is, how are we feeling? And what do you think we need to do next to recover? And instead of actually saying the answers out loud in the group, they write in the Google Doc and it's a writing workshop. Right.

[00:34:19] And so then after you've got five minutes to kind of get everything out of your brain, again, it's anonymous. So there's no risk of feedback, retaliation or whatever. Then as a facilitator, you can also say, okay, well, does anyone want to share? Like, do you want to talk? And you're given the option to spark a conversation if you feel like it that might be productive for the group around the table.

[00:34:43] But then you're also, for the introverts out there, you're given a safe space to have your voice be heard and captured, right? Yeah. I actually love that. I'm going to take that. You're welcome. I still have that idea. You can have it. And ultimately, again, it's all about remembering the human action and aspects. And I think that, you know, back to making it actionable, there's got to be like, where is this feedback going? What are we going to do about it? And by when, right?

[00:35:12] And the accountability of that has got to be, you just got to walk the walk, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, I've seen so many times, so many times again, where, you know, maybe it is in an all hands format where someone asks a question and then we're six months down the line and someone's like, hey, on April 10th, I asked this question. This person said they were going to get back to us by the end of quarter. We're two quarters after that.

[00:35:39] What, like, really, truly holding yourselves accountable to this timeline, communicating that timeline ahead of time. That way people can then hold you accountable. And if you don't miss that timeline, if you don't make that timeline, you're, again, you're putting yourself further and further back in that trust because people are going to feel like, man, like we're really building some momentum. I was so excited to see how this was going to roll out in the second half. And it kind of just fell on deaf ears.

[00:36:07] And then that's just going to slow that trajectory and make people not want to put themselves out there to share the feedback because they're going to be like, well, what's the point? I asked in this public forum or I took an hour of my day to, you know, attend this session or I met with this individual for 30 minutes. And they just don't care. They were just doing it to pretend as if, to pretend as if they actually cared when in fact they did not. And also I think like being able to share some of that feedback, obviously not share who said

[00:36:36] it, but if you're having these sessions, you know, share that feedback that you got and in all hands. And being like, you know, we met with 100 employees over the last two weeks and those are the common themes that we saw. And those are the actions that we're going to take. And again, by this deadline, we're going to have an actionable plan to then roll out based off this feedback. And again, hold yourselves accountable. Yeah. And I imagine also your HR business partners, they're going to be those people that are going

[00:37:03] to drive and you need to make sure you equip your HR business partners with this data in a sustained way so they can influence senior leadership and say, hey, when we did this focus group, this is what we heard. These are the actual people analytics and evidence based data that helps us drive and decide, okay, this is why we need to invest in this people program. This is why we need to bring in mentor mentee programs for the next three months.

[00:37:33] Or this is why we need to invest in this cultural program to help rebuild. Because I think ultimately, you know, let's face it, when companies are trying to cut corners and improve profits and make them look better on paper for their shareholders, sometimes the people in culture budgets are the ones to get cut, right? I am the pivot king when it comes to my budget.

[00:38:02] Like, I know what I get on January 1st is not going to be what I have March 1st. Yeah. Instead of that, like, what would you consider is a better solution to improve employee engagement and rebuild company pride rather than cutting the people and culture budget? What would you recommend to leaders who are out there? Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it really goes back to really adding that empathy and thinking from a human aspect.

[00:38:31] And it's kind of like, let's look at where we're spending our money. Do we need to throw these 10 external dinners with potential clients for the rest of the year? Maybe we cut that and cut that down to five. And then we take that money and shift it over to the people and culture programs. Because time and time after all the years I've been working in this space, the people and

[00:39:00] culture budget is the first one to get cut. The, you know, oh, well, the L&D budget is getting cut. So, you know, we gave you, though, that money every month to subscribe to some news forum. Sorry, no longer. Use your personal funds. Things like that you always see and it's like, it may seem small at the time. It's like, oh, it's just we're taking this one thing away. Your employees are remembering this. And they're making note of it. And they're just adding it to the list. They're checking it twice.

[00:39:30] So if you're able to then say like, hey, we took a look at our budget and we saw like, okay, we obviously want to expand our business and we want to bring in potential clients who may, you know, tap into, you know, what we're selling or what we're trying to build. But we also want our employees to tap into what we're trying to build. So again, like I said, instead of doing those 10 dinners, we're going to do five. And then those funds that we took from those five dinners, we're going to add into this

[00:39:57] program to really make sure that we're honoring what we promised to you all about making sure we want to build a better company for you all post this layoff to really show you that we care. And so I think that's something that people can really do to really, I think that itself would truly inspire and bring in so much trust. Because like I said, people are looking at what you're spending. And again, they're making their list.

[00:40:25] I have gotten text messages from people from previous companies, you know, when things are kind of going rocky and it's like, wow, we had to cut, you know, our summer party. But, you know, we just did this yacht party for 10 people. Like what? Like, and yachts aren't cheap. No, actions are louder than words. I also believe that your people are your greatest strategic asset. Greatest asset.

[00:40:53] Unless your company is fully 100% run by AI, I doubt it is. You still need the people that have you retained to help you achieve your business goals and to drive growth. So in my opinion, you need to invest more into the people that you have kept and ensure that they are equipped and they're empowered and they're on the same wavelength as you to help hit those business goals.

[00:41:21] Because then they're going to want to actually put the time, the energy, the effort to make sure that they're, you're hitting your goals, you're hitting your metrics. They're really going up. I mean, I wouldn't say above and beyond, but really just making sure that they are putting in the work that is needed to sustain this company versus building as if I'm doing all of this and things keep constantly getting taken away from me. Daniel, you are a smart cookie. And I have no doubt that the next company that scoops you up for people in culture work,

[00:41:49] they're going to hit the jackpot 100%. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. If you're curious about the work that Daniel is doing out in the world, you can go over to our show notes over at thesimplifiers.com. You'll be able to find his LinkedIn page as well as his online portfolio just to see the work that he has done in the past and where he's headed next. And of course, if you want to reach out to him, I'm sure you're an open guy. You'd be happy to set up a chat with anyone that wants to talk culture stuff, right? Yeah. My messages are open.

[00:42:19] Please hit me up. I love people, so. Awesome. I don't think I've ever spent as much time on LinkedIn as I have in the last few months, but like, it's the place to be right now. It's kind of like my like virtual coffee shop. Like. It really is. Well, Daniel, as we wrap up, I got a couple of questions I like to ask everyone on the podcast. So here we go. So first off, what's one book or blog that you're reading these days that's either inspiring you or poking holes and challenging your belief system?

[00:42:48] Yeah. So a newsletter newsletter that I'm actually subscribed to is called Forward Joy. That's FWD Joy. It's by Chrissy Rutherford. She's a digital creator, writer, brand consultant who worked in the fashion industry and left at the height of, you know, 2020 George Floyd to really focus on herself and really bringing equity to a lot of other spaces. She started her own consulting company.

[00:43:18] And I just think she's an overall amazing individual. She writes a lot of personal essays around like mental health, wellness, self-care, her own life experiences. She also interviews friends and other people that she also admires from everything to astrology to like overcoming addiction. And I just think I just love the way that she's able to look at life. And it truly kind of inspires me to want to like change my own way of looking at life. So definitely check that out. Shout out to Chrissy.

[00:43:48] Awesome. Well, we will link her up in the show notes. You guys can check that out as well. Tell me who's one person in your network, somebody you know personally, you just feel are up to brilliant things. If we could shine a spotlight on them and who knows, maybe one day we'll have them on the podcast. Yeah. So I think everyone should check out Macy L. Owens. She is someone I used to work with and who started her own company called the ERG movement.

[00:44:13] Essentially, she saw a space in the market around ERGs, employer resource groups, and realized that companies were under utilizing them in terms of just like making sure these programs are set up for success. And she really has done so, so many amazing things around, you know, company culture and ERGs specifically. So I would definitely check out Macy L. Owens from the ERG movement. She calls herself the ERG homegirl.

[00:44:43] I've never seen someone be able to take data and make it so palpable before as she has. So definitely check her out. She's amazing. She inspires me. Macy L. We will have you in our show notes as well. And hopefully you guys can click over to check her out and the work that she does in the world. I believe that gratitude and simplicity go hand in hand. Tell me, what are you grateful for today?

[00:45:11] Today, I am grateful for the community that I've built. You know, the last couple of months have been a lot of ups, a lot of downs, a lot of very interesting, weird days. But, you know, the community that I have built, you know, in the corporate space and my personal life here in New York, it's just truly, truly come out and shown me so much support. And, you know, the texts, they don't go unappreciated.

[00:45:40] The messages, I see them. Sometimes I may not respond to all of them, but just know that I see them. And, you know, even if it's a repost or a like on a post, something I'm sharing on LinkedIn, like I am just grateful for the community that I've built at this stage of my life. And so that's something I'm very grateful for. And I'm grateful that you're in my community now. Come on over. Yes, we're connected. And like, thank you for reaching out to me. It's been like, you know, great getting to know you. My pleasure.

[00:46:10] So my last question for you today is this. Someone somewhere is listening to us right now. And let's imagine she is an HR leader and her company just did a massive layoff. And she is desperately trying to scrabble all the pieces together and is feeling a little bit overwhelmed by it all. Well, what's one thing you could whisper into her ear right now just to encourage her in this moment? I would just say, like, lean on your community. And I think that is something that people can do.

[00:46:40] Just really lean on the community that they've established and know that it's going to be all right. And it's not just yours to fix. It's everybody. Exactly. Daniel, thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to The Simplifiers Podcast. Find the show notes for this episode and all others at thesimplifierspodcast.com. Know someone in your life who needs to simplify? Be a hero and share our podcast with them. And we will see you here next time.

[00:47:09] As always, keep it simple. I'll see you next time. Thank you.