The Corporate Recruiting Playbook: Proven Techniques for Hiring

[00:00:10] Welcome to The Recruiting Book Club. I'm Carmen Hudson, Recruiting Consultant and former TA leader and book author. With each episode of this podcast, I have invited a guest who's written a book about recruiting, sourcing or TA leadership. I like to read each book before the interview and that makes our conversations rich and useful and sometimes we veer off the topic of the actual book and we get into TA issues. So I hope that makes it interesting and useful to you. Please let me know what you think.

[00:00:40] Or if you have a favorite TA book, I'll add it to my list of folks to be interviewed. I hope you enjoy this podcast.

[00:00:50] Good evening everyone. I am William Wiggins, Chief People and Cultural Officer for an organization in Seattle called Youth Care. We specialize in housing resources for homeless youth ages 12 to 23 here in the Seattle area.

[00:01:04] And I will be interviewing Carmen Hudson today about her book, The Corporate Recruiting Playbook. And also, Carmen happens to be my wife.

[00:01:16] There you go. Just in full disclosure.

[00:01:20] Yes, absolutely. Carmen, thank you for joining us today. I really appreciate it. I have lots of questions for you.

[00:01:26] Awesome. Thank you. Thank you, William. I hope you're ready. Okay, I think so. We'll see how this goes.

[00:01:32] The most important thing I wanted to ask you is what inspired you to write this book? I read it. I think it's a really, really great tool.

[00:01:39] I actually think it's a really good tool for people who don't know anything about recruiting because it takes you sort of through the process step by step.

[00:01:45] But what inspired you to write this book in the first place? Sure thing. So to step back a little, just highlight a little bit of my history and why I came to write this book.

[00:01:55] So I started out back in the mid 90s. And I started out as an executive recruiting and sourcing person.

[00:02:02] And that got me really involved in sourcing and research and led me to a career in quite a few corporate settings in Capital One and at Amazon and at Microsoft and Starbucks and Yahoo.

[00:02:15] And finally, after that, and after building out Tweet a Job, which is another project that I led in my career, I went into recruitment consulting and worked with recruiting toolbox for many, many years and left recruiting toolbox and eventually wrote the corporate recruiting playbook.

[00:02:31] So for me, it is the culmination of a lot of years of ideas. Some of them I had written down because in my mind, I'd always thought about never wrote a book about recruiting.

[00:02:41] I want to write about this little bit. So I had little bits and pieces to pull together when I started writing it.

[00:02:46] And once I decided seriously, I'm going to sit down and just write this and get it out and put it out into the world.

[00:02:53] So I had some places where I could at least start or at least begin to think about some of the ideas that I had.

[00:02:59] OK, you start off this book with the candidate experience.

[00:03:04] And I'm really glad you started there because I think that's a really, really important piece in terms of the lifecycle of not just a candidate, but an employee.

[00:03:12] I think the candidate experience is really, really important and sort of shapes the way a person moves through an organization.

[00:03:18] If they're ultimately chosen for the job, I want you to just go into a little bit of detail.

[00:03:22] That was your chapter one. And so I want you to describe for me what you think is an ideal candidate experience.

[00:03:29] And in your own words, why is that so important, the candidate experience?

[00:03:32] And we might have some people that say, you know, oh, who cares?

[00:03:35] They're applying for that. But why is that important to you?

[00:03:37] That's always been important to me. It's been important to me for a number of reasons.

[00:03:40] And I tell a story in the book where I had a candidate experience very early in my career that left me wondering what the decision making process was and whether or not I was a victim of some sort of racist event.

[00:03:51] And it just made me think that even early in those early days when I had no idea that recruiting would ultimately become my career,

[00:03:59] it made me think about the fact that I want to make sure that when a candidate is introduced to my organization,

[00:04:05] that they get a commiserate something, an experience that matches their interaction with the company.

[00:04:11] So if they apply and we are not interested, I tell them that we are not interested.

[00:04:15] I thank them for applying and best practice. I give them something else to do.

[00:04:19] I ask them to join our network so that they may be kept abreast of other opportunities.

[00:04:24] Or I share with them a few job hunting tools, whatever that might be.

[00:04:29] It doesn't have to be deep, but it has to be in the spirit of I really value that you took the time out to consider my organization.

[00:04:36] And I want to thank you for that. I think that we think that kind of interaction doesn't have as much of an impact as it really does on candidates.

[00:04:44] And so I'm really insistent that we start to pay attention to this.

[00:04:48] And then as things progress, as that interaction becomes deeper, then we have different types of there are different types of interactions that you want to have with your candidates.

[00:04:57] But you want to make sure that at the end of this, that each person feels that they have been appropriately communicated to.

[00:05:05] And sometimes we forget that. So if I have had phone conversations with a candidate, then it means that I probably need to follow up by phone to let them know whether or not they're moving forward.

[00:05:14] If they have come in to interview, I certainly need to make sure that I have a conversation with them once they've come in and a decision has been made.

[00:05:21] That's all candidates are looking for. Of course, the candidates don't understand the process.

[00:05:26] So the more that we can outline and define the process for them so that before they apply, they understand what to expect, the better, I think, experience that the candidate has and the better they talk about your organization.

[00:05:39] I work with a lot of large consumer brands, and this is very important.

[00:05:42] They want every single candidate to walk away and still remain a consumer.

[00:05:46] So that's equally important.

[00:05:48] And I know in that chapter, you actually say that the candidate experience for a software engineer should be different from the candidate experience for a, let's say, I believe you said a customer service rep.

[00:06:00] Do you want to say more about that?

[00:06:02] Sure. So your customer service rep, you're going to be recruiting likely at scale.

[00:06:06] So you're going to design something, you're going to design a process that's efficient, but that doesn't mean that you don't think about that candidate experience.

[00:06:12] With a software engineer, you're likely going to have some part of the process where they demonstrate their skills.

[00:06:17] And you want to make sure that that is fair, that that is equitable, that it's not a burdensome activity for the engineer.

[00:06:25] So you definitely want to take time and think through whatever kind of candidate that you have in front of you and make sure that it makes sense for each candidate.

[00:06:33] So you're not saying that just because someone is a software engineer, they should have a better experience than a customer service rep.

[00:06:39] It's just a different experience.

[00:06:40] Absolutely. It's just a different experience. Yeah.

[00:06:42] Okay. You know, I also noticed another thing is you get started pretty early on in the book talking about the role and relationship with the hiring manager in terms of chapter two.

[00:06:54] You talk about getting started with a requisition that includes a great deal of information about building that relationship with the hiring manager.

[00:07:02] Can you say more about that? How critical is that relationship with the hiring manager at that level where you're getting started with the requisition? Can you talk about that?

[00:07:10] Well, I think that without that, that relationship, without having a deeper conversation, without doing the work to really understand the position,

[00:07:17] quite frankly, the way that tools are developing and the way that AI is replacing some of the activities that we would call recruiting.

[00:07:25] There's not much room for a recruiter who doesn't, who isn't able to do that.

[00:07:29] And I don't see a recruiter who is merely sort of taking, you know, an order and delivering what they believe the order says without having a conversation with the hiring manager,

[00:07:39] without understanding the context around hiring an individual.

[00:07:42] It just, that kind of role just will become fewer and fewer.

[00:07:46] So I think that recruiters who are savvy, those who are going to help hiring managers will help them actually navigate the entire process of bringing someone onto their team

[00:07:57] and really help them think deeply about, do I need someone who's at the top of their game?

[00:08:01] Or can I bring someone in who is perhaps learning through this?

[00:08:05] Because I have someone that on my team with whom I can pair this person.

[00:08:07] And that way I can pay less of a salary.

[00:08:10] There's more room for development and I can have a well-rounded team.

[00:08:13] So if you, as a recruiter, can't help your hiring manager think through these issues,

[00:08:18] if you can't help them think through, you've said here that you need a senior,

[00:08:21] but when I talk to you, sounds like you don't necessarily need that much of a senior person.

[00:08:25] And it's going to be a lot easier in this market to find someone who's mid-level versus someone who is senior.

[00:08:31] You're able to have those kinds of conversations with hiring managers.

[00:08:34] That's where your value is as a recruiter.

[00:08:35] If you can't have those kinds of conversations, if you are afraid or don't have the information

[00:08:39] or don't have the time, you are likely going to find yourself obsolete

[00:08:43] because there are plenty of tools that can do the matching piece of this work.

[00:08:48] Can you talk a little bit about, I've always found, and I've worked on the HR side,

[00:08:53] I've managed recruiting teams before.

[00:08:54] The one thing I've always found is it seems like the hiring manager oftentimes,

[00:08:58] and I don't know how to say this, so I'll just go ahead and say it how I'm thinking it,

[00:09:01] often controls that relationship and the recruiter is in sort of a subjugated position,

[00:09:07] which I really don't like.

[00:09:09] I think that the recruiter is very consultative and should be seen as a partner,

[00:09:14] an equal partner in the hiring process to work alongside the hiring manager.

[00:09:18] But oftentimes I've seen it where the hiring manager is completely controlling that process

[00:09:21] and not necessarily making the right decisions along the way.

[00:09:25] Can you give recruiters who are challenged with managing that hiring manager relationship

[00:09:31] and making sure that their profession, their voice is a part of the process,

[00:09:36] can you give any advice on how to establish that relationship with the hiring manager?

[00:09:41] I can share a little bit about how I did it when I was a recruiter.

[00:09:44] And when I started as a recruiter, I didn't know anything.

[00:09:47] I didn't know shit from Shinola.

[00:09:49] I was junior in the role and just trying to figure things out

[00:09:52] and figure out the right way to do things.

[00:09:54] And so what I learned was, especially with these engineering leaders,

[00:10:00] I didn't understand what they were doing.

[00:10:01] So the first thing I knew that I needed to do,

[00:10:03] what I needed to do is really understand a little bit more about what they were doing,

[00:10:05] what they were trying to do.

[00:10:06] And I needed to get them to be able to explain it to me in layman's terms

[00:10:10] so that I could go back and explain it to someone else

[00:10:13] without sounding completely like an idiot.

[00:10:15] So the first thing I would do,

[00:10:17] and the thing that I would advise recruiters to do

[00:10:19] is just to get to know these leaders.

[00:10:21] And sometimes it is without a requisition on the table.

[00:10:24] So it is, this person's new to the organization.

[00:10:26] You know that they're part of your recruiting organization.

[00:10:29] It doesn't hurt to go and sit down and spend 20 minutes with this person

[00:10:32] just to get to know them, to introduce yourself,

[00:10:33] to show them where the resources are,

[00:10:35] and to talk a little bit about how you expect the relationship to go,

[00:10:39] right?

[00:10:39] To talk a little bit about what you're able to bring to the table.

[00:10:42] And without that kind of footing or setting or familiarity,

[00:10:46] it's really hard to sort of say,

[00:10:48] hi, I have a position and let's just get to work.

[00:10:51] You kind of have to figure out how do you develop

[00:10:54] that kind of relationship with the hiring manager.

[00:10:56] And I will tell you that that extra 20 minutes,

[00:10:58] that extra half hour meeting has served me so well.

[00:11:00] And it really transferred a lot of hiring managers

[00:11:05] into the realm of work friends, right?

[00:11:07] These are people that I can count on,

[00:11:10] or I can call a favor from, or they can call a favor from me.

[00:11:13] Or I would find often as the recruiter,

[00:11:14] I was meeting with them more regularly than their HR person.

[00:11:17] So they would be with HR questions.

[00:11:19] If I can answer them, great.

[00:11:20] If not, I can refer them to the right person.

[00:11:21] But really developing and cementing that relationship

[00:11:24] so that when things aren't going well,

[00:11:25] we can say, hey, wait, things aren't going well.

[00:11:27] Let me tell you about what I did to screw it up.

[00:11:29] Or let me tell you about how I think your interviewing team

[00:11:31] is screwing this up.

[00:11:32] And we can have those kinds of conversations

[00:11:34] where you can put it on the table.

[00:11:35] But the other piece of it is really knowing

[00:11:39] what information at the very beginning

[00:11:42] that you need to collect.

[00:11:43] And what can you actually research on your IC recruiters

[00:11:46] send these long forms.

[00:11:47] They want hiring managers to fill them out.

[00:11:49] And I hate written forms of any kind,

[00:11:51] but especially these, you know,

[00:11:52] I will take those and trash them at every opportunity

[00:11:55] because I think it makes no sense when,

[00:11:58] first of all, as the recruiter,

[00:11:59] I can find out what the rec number is.

[00:12:00] I don't need a hiring manager re-entering that information

[00:12:03] on any data point at any point or any time.

[00:12:06] So really doing the homework and doing the work

[00:12:09] around understanding as much as you can about the rec

[00:12:12] before you even meet with them about the open position.

[00:12:16] So really sitting down and having with yourself

[00:12:19] and going through and researching,

[00:12:20] this is what we call it at our company.

[00:12:22] What do our competitors call this role?

[00:12:23] What looks the same?

[00:12:24] What looks different?

[00:12:25] And maybe even if you have the time,

[00:12:27] there's someone in your company,

[00:12:28] you can sit down who's doing that job.

[00:12:30] You can sit down and interview them for a half hour

[00:12:32] and find out a little bit more.

[00:12:32] But walking into the room with a hiring manager

[00:12:34] with a pre-determined set of information.

[00:12:38] And that happened, you know,

[00:12:40] I learned that not as early in my career

[00:12:41] as I would have liked, but I learned it.

[00:12:43] And I think I talk about this in the book,

[00:12:45] but I learned it because I thought I was hot stuff

[00:12:48] when I showed up at Microsoft.

[00:12:50] I thought like, this is going to be easy.

[00:12:51] I've just been recruiting at Amazon

[00:12:53] and it's crazy over there.

[00:12:54] And this is really cool.

[00:12:55] And there are all kinds of resources

[00:12:56] and this is great.

[00:12:57] And I show up to my first meeting

[00:12:59] with a hiring manager and I'm very excited.

[00:13:02] Can I go away?

[00:13:04] And a day or so later,

[00:13:05] I get an email and I'm one of those people.

[00:13:07] If you send me an email,

[00:13:08] I'm going to read every single,

[00:13:09] all the way down to the very bottom

[00:13:10] to the first sender.

[00:13:11] I'm going to, I'm just that nosy.

[00:13:12] So I'm going to read every bit of it.

[00:13:14] And the manager had sent a note to my manager

[00:13:16] and that manager said, she was nice.

[00:13:19] The manager said, how was, you know,

[00:13:20] you're working with Carmen.

[00:13:20] She said, she was nice.

[00:13:21] She came in.

[00:13:22] I hope that she can get the job done.

[00:13:23] But she walked in with a blank piece of paper

[00:13:25] and asked me a bunch of questions.

[00:13:27] And I'm not sure that she's going to be effective.

[00:13:30] And at first, you know,

[00:13:31] had my attitude and, you know,

[00:13:32] it was, you know,

[00:13:33] this woman doesn't know what she's talking about,

[00:13:35] but she was right.

[00:13:36] And that's when I knew that

[00:13:38] in order to recruit well,

[00:13:39] you must prepare.

[00:13:41] And so from that point forward,

[00:13:43] I never went into a meeting

[00:13:45] about an open position

[00:13:46] without first having done a bit of homework

[00:13:47] so that my questions

[00:13:48] to the hiring manager made sense.

[00:13:51] Hi there, I'm Peter Zollman.

[00:13:53] I'm a co-host of the Inside Job Boards

[00:13:55] and Recruitment Marketplaces podcast.

[00:13:58] And I'm Steven Rothberg.

[00:13:59] And I guess that makes me the other co-host.

[00:14:01] Every other week,

[00:14:02] we're joined by guests

[00:14:03] from the world's leading job sites.

[00:14:05] Together, we analyze news

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[00:14:15] And were you able to turn that relationship

[00:14:18] or the opinion of that particular hiring manager

[00:14:20] around at some point?

[00:14:21] It's very interesting.

[00:14:22] I think so.

[00:14:23] She's leading her own firm right now.

[00:14:24] And so I'd be curious.

[00:14:25] I might actually connect with her.

[00:14:28] She's very well known,

[00:14:29] very well respected person

[00:14:30] in the recruiting community.

[00:14:32] And I was probably able to deliver a candidate

[00:14:35] and we probably worked through all of that.

[00:14:37] But it's just like a lot of recruiters,

[00:14:38] they sort of show up

[00:14:39] and they take the order

[00:14:40] and hiring managers not certain.

[00:14:42] And so a hiring manager,

[00:14:43] when they're not certain

[00:14:44] and they need this work done,

[00:14:45] they're going to take control

[00:14:46] versus our leading this process

[00:14:49] and being the project manager

[00:14:51] and showing up with everything

[00:14:52] that is needed

[00:14:53] and asking the right questions

[00:14:54] and being prepared.

[00:14:55] Yeah.

[00:14:56] So the bottom line is that first,

[00:14:57] you know, 15 minute,

[00:14:58] half an hour meeting

[00:14:59] with your hiring manager

[00:15:00] is critical to establishing

[00:15:02] that relationship

[00:15:02] of trust and collaboration.

[00:15:04] That's exactly it.

[00:15:05] And if you walk into the room

[00:15:06] not prepared,

[00:15:07] the trust is not there

[00:15:08] and it's likely going to be

[00:15:10] really difficult to come by.

[00:15:11] You also talk about in the book,

[00:15:13] I believe it might be chapter four,

[00:15:16] where you talk about sourcing and screening.

[00:15:18] And I hear a lot of people

[00:15:19] using recruiter and sourcer

[00:15:21] kind of interchangeably.

[00:15:22] And of course,

[00:15:23] we HR folks know

[00:15:24] the big differences between the two.

[00:15:26] But I wanted you to take an opportunity

[00:15:28] to kind of explain to our audience here

[00:15:31] what you see the differences

[00:15:32] between the two,

[00:15:34] recruiter and sourcer is.

[00:15:36] And you can give us,

[00:15:36] you know,

[00:15:36] maybe three bullet points

[00:15:38] of, you know,

[00:15:38] what the big difference is.

[00:15:39] Sure.

[00:15:40] So I started my career as a sourcer

[00:15:41] and sourcers typically

[00:15:43] the person who finds

[00:15:45] the set of candidates

[00:15:46] to which you,

[00:15:48] the hiring manager will be talking.

[00:15:50] So a sourcer might go about

[00:15:52] his or her job

[00:15:54] gathering five or six candidates

[00:15:56] for a particular role,

[00:15:57] or maybe they're working

[00:15:58] on a larger project

[00:15:58] where worked on so many

[00:16:00] of these projects,

[00:16:00] we need software engineers

[00:16:01] for this particular team.

[00:16:03] So there's a sourcer out there

[00:16:04] looking for the particular skills

[00:16:05] and they'll come back

[00:16:06] with a list of 100 or 200

[00:16:07] or even a thousand

[00:16:08] of people who have

[00:16:09] this set of skills.

[00:16:10] And they have just gone to,

[00:16:12] they have done the work

[00:16:13] usually online,

[00:16:14] usually using multiple sources online

[00:16:16] to find the names

[00:16:18] and the contact information

[00:16:20] of the people

[00:16:21] that you will talk to.

[00:16:23] Recruiter in, you know,

[00:16:24] a formal setting

[00:16:24] would then take that work

[00:16:26] and turn those sources

[00:16:28] into candidates.

[00:16:29] And it can work,

[00:16:30] you know,

[00:16:30] a lot of different ways.

[00:16:31] In some organizations,

[00:16:32] the sourcer will actually

[00:16:33] reach out to the candidate,

[00:16:34] have that initial conversation

[00:16:35] and turn them over

[00:16:36] to the recruiter.

[00:16:37] In some cases,

[00:16:38] only the recruiter talks

[00:16:39] to the person

[00:16:40] as they become a candidate.

[00:16:41] However, that works.

[00:16:42] And sometimes

[00:16:42] in some organizations,

[00:16:44] recruiters are sourcers.

[00:16:45] And I've had many roles

[00:16:46] where I was both the sourcer

[00:16:47] and the recruiter

[00:16:49] because that's,

[00:16:50] the organization

[00:16:51] couldn't afford

[00:16:51] a sourcing organization.

[00:16:52] So I don't need

[00:16:53] a sourcing organization.

[00:16:54] So it can vary.

[00:16:56] My belief is that

[00:16:57] all recruiters

[00:16:58] should know how to source.

[00:16:59] So if you run out

[00:17:01] of candidates,

[00:17:02] if LinkedIn goes down,

[00:17:03] you can still

[00:17:04] get your work done.

[00:17:05] And how about

[00:17:06] the opposite way?

[00:17:08] Would you say that

[00:17:09] all sourcers

[00:17:09] know how to recruit?

[00:17:11] Oh, that's a good question.

[00:17:12] I would say they should.

[00:17:14] I would say

[00:17:15] 40% of the time

[00:17:16] you will run into

[00:17:17] sourcers who either

[00:17:18] don't want to

[00:17:19] or don't know

[00:17:20] how to actually

[00:17:22] take the next steps

[00:17:23] and work with

[00:17:24] the hiring managers

[00:17:24] and get someone

[00:17:26] hired into the organization.

[00:17:27] I would not run

[00:17:28] an organization in that way.

[00:17:29] I want everyone

[00:17:30] to be able to do

[00:17:31] the work that needs

[00:17:32] to be done.

[00:17:32] And in your book,

[00:17:33] you also say that

[00:17:34] great sourcing starts

[00:17:36] with an open conversation.

[00:17:38] Describe that conversation.

[00:17:40] Are you talking about

[00:17:41] the conversation

[00:17:41] with the hiring manager?

[00:17:42] Yeah, tell me to say more.

[00:17:43] Well, it starts with,

[00:17:45] I think the hiring manager,

[00:17:46] but also it starts with me.

[00:17:47] So in the book,

[00:17:48] I outline how I like

[00:17:49] to sit down

[00:17:50] and think about

[00:17:50] an open position,

[00:17:51] whether it's technical

[00:17:52] or non-technical.

[00:17:52] I have a way of diagramming

[00:17:54] out the position

[00:17:55] and thinking about

[00:17:57] the kinds of skills

[00:17:57] that are necessary,

[00:17:59] the kinds of behaviors

[00:17:59] that are required

[00:18:00] to do this job

[00:18:01] and anything that

[00:18:02] may be part of this

[00:18:04] and thinking about

[00:18:05] helping the hiring manager

[00:18:06] thinking through,

[00:18:07] is this too complex?

[00:18:08] Are we asking too much

[00:18:09] of this role

[00:18:09] or can we add something

[00:18:11] to this role

[00:18:11] or are we in just

[00:18:13] the right place

[00:18:13] and this is just

[00:18:14] the right profile

[00:18:15] that we're looking at?

[00:18:16] Really narrowing down

[00:18:17] what that profile

[00:18:18] should look like,

[00:18:19] helping the hiring manager

[00:18:21] think about,

[00:18:21] oh, this is,

[00:18:22] and one of the things

[00:18:23] that we forget

[00:18:24] is that job descriptions

[00:18:25] are typically reused

[00:18:27] and old

[00:18:28] and mishandled

[00:18:29] and no one cares

[00:18:30] about them.

[00:18:31] They're not written

[00:18:31] very well

[00:18:32] and a hiring manager

[00:18:33] wanting to spur

[00:18:35] the process on

[00:18:35] will simply download

[00:18:37] whatever description

[00:18:38] that's out there.

[00:18:39] The recruiter goes

[00:18:40] and uploads it online

[00:18:42] and that's that

[00:18:43] and we need to

[00:18:43] really stop and think,

[00:18:44] is this what we really need

[00:18:45] in our organization

[00:18:46] and is it written,

[00:18:47] is our job description

[00:18:48] written to attract

[00:18:49] that kind of person?

[00:18:50] So,

[00:18:50] thinking a little bit

[00:18:51] about that

[00:18:52] and then getting

[00:18:53] the hiring manager

[00:18:53] to fully understand

[00:18:55] and help me understand

[00:18:57] what it is he or she

[00:18:57] is looking for.

[00:18:59] Great.

[00:18:59] Let's flip the page

[00:19:01] forward a little bit.

[00:19:02] In chapter six,

[00:19:03] you talk about

[00:19:04] embedding diversity

[00:19:05] in your recruiting practices

[00:19:07] and I have found

[00:19:09] that,

[00:19:10] well,

[00:19:10] depending on where you are,

[00:19:11] that's a very difficult

[00:19:12] thing to do.

[00:19:12] I think that people

[00:19:14] struggle with that.

[00:19:15] As a recruiting expert

[00:19:18] and if you were talking

[00:19:19] to recruiters,

[00:19:21] how would you say

[00:19:22] to approach that topic

[00:19:24] with your hiring managers

[00:19:25] who are more focused

[00:19:27] on getting that position

[00:19:28] filled,

[00:19:29] you know,

[00:19:30] with a warm body,

[00:19:31] how would you,

[00:19:33] and some people see

[00:19:34] embedding diversity

[00:19:35] as yet another step,

[00:19:36] you know,

[00:19:36] in this already

[00:19:37] arduous process.

[00:19:39] As an expert recruiter,

[00:19:40] how would you inspire

[00:19:41] your team

[00:19:42] or direct your team

[00:19:43] to coach a hiring manager

[00:19:45] in that direction?

[00:19:46] So the first thing

[00:19:46] is just to make room

[00:19:47] for the conversation

[00:19:48] and to talk about

[00:19:49] that leaders,

[00:19:50] that manager's team

[00:19:51] as it exists

[00:19:52] and asking,

[00:19:53] do you feel as if

[00:19:54] you have enough diversity

[00:19:54] on your team?

[00:19:56] And diversity

[00:19:56] can mean a lot

[00:19:57] of different things

[00:19:58] to a lot of different people

[00:19:59] so understanding

[00:19:59] what that definition is

[00:20:01] and just starting

[00:20:03] the conversation there

[00:20:04] and not assuming

[00:20:05] that the hiring manager

[00:20:06] has a position

[00:20:07] or knowledge,

[00:20:08] often they don't

[00:20:09] and making sure

[00:20:11] that the hiring manager

[00:20:11] knows that your goal

[00:20:13] as a representative

[00:20:14] of the company

[00:20:15] is to ensure

[00:20:16] that they have

[00:20:16] as diverse a pool

[00:20:18] of candidates

[00:20:18] as possible.

[00:20:19] Now, do I go

[00:20:20] into the details

[00:20:21] of how I develop

[00:20:22] that diverse pool

[00:20:23] of candidates?

[00:20:24] Sometimes,

[00:20:24] because sometimes

[00:20:25] you have a hiring manager

[00:20:25] who's interested.

[00:20:26] Most of the time

[00:20:27] they don't know

[00:20:27] and they don't care.

[00:20:28] Really where you get

[00:20:29] that commitment

[00:20:29] to diversity

[00:20:30] is getting them

[00:20:31] to commit to

[00:20:31] this is the job

[00:20:33] that I want to hire for,

[00:20:34] these are the skills

[00:20:35] that are important to me,

[00:20:35] these are the qualities

[00:20:36] that are important to me,

[00:20:37] you bring someone

[00:20:38] to me who has

[00:20:39] that set of skills

[00:20:40] and qualities,

[00:20:41] I'm going to hire them,

[00:20:41] I'm going to be excited

[00:20:42] to hire them.

[00:20:43] And the work

[00:20:45] then becomes on the backside,

[00:20:46] it becomes on

[00:20:47] where I go to source.

[00:20:48] If I go to a particular source

[00:20:50] and I know that

[00:20:50] that source is primarily male,

[00:20:52] then I can only expect

[00:20:53] male candidates.

[00:20:54] If I want to broaden

[00:20:55] that pool,

[00:20:55] I'm going to go

[00:20:56] to other sources.

[00:20:57] That's why sourcing

[00:20:57] is really important

[00:20:58] to understand

[00:20:59] how to do that well.

[00:21:00] If I'm working

[00:21:01] with a sourcer

[00:21:01] and they're coming back

[00:21:02] with all candidates

[00:21:03] of one stripe,

[00:21:04] I'm going to tell them

[00:21:05] to go back

[00:21:05] and to look in other places

[00:21:06] because I want some candidates

[00:21:07] with polka dots as well.

[00:21:08] And that way,

[00:21:09] I put in front

[00:21:11] of the hiring manager

[00:21:12] a slate of candidates

[00:21:13] that may very well

[00:21:14] be diverse

[00:21:15] and we may not have ever

[00:21:16] had a very deep conversation

[00:21:17] about this.

[00:21:18] So that's where I think

[00:21:20] as recruiters,

[00:21:21] we can best impact

[00:21:23] an organization.

[00:21:24] Understanding the numbers,

[00:21:25] so sometimes it takes

[00:21:26] doing a little bit of research,

[00:21:27] understanding where you are.

[00:21:28] So this is why

[00:21:29] this whole return to work

[00:21:31] bothers me

[00:21:31] from a diversity standpoint.

[00:21:33] I think that a lot

[00:21:34] of organizations

[00:21:35] that we're,

[00:21:36] you know,

[00:21:36] we live in the Seattle area,

[00:21:37] we live in an area

[00:21:39] where there are not

[00:21:40] as many diverse candidates.

[00:21:41] If you are offering

[00:21:42] an opportunity

[00:21:43] where someone can work

[00:21:43] from wherever they are,

[00:21:44] you have the opportunity

[00:21:45] to open up diversity

[00:21:46] and take a look

[00:21:47] at the markets,

[00:21:48] not only where

[00:21:49] the kinds of people

[00:21:50] who have the skills

[00:21:51] that you're looking for,

[00:21:51] but also the kinds

[00:21:53] of markets where diversity

[00:21:54] and those skills

[00:21:55] are married together.

[00:21:56] You're able to find those.

[00:21:58] So adding diversity

[00:21:59] to your organization

[00:22:00] is a slow process.

[00:22:03] Very slow process.

[00:22:04] I think if you take a look,

[00:22:07] you know,

[00:22:07] there are all these organizations

[00:22:08] that are talking about

[00:22:09] turning off diversity

[00:22:10] and we don't want diversity

[00:22:11] and we don't want equity

[00:22:13] and that makes no sense

[00:22:14] because A,

[00:22:15] the population is shifting

[00:22:16] and B,

[00:22:18] you really do want people

[00:22:19] with a different set

[00:22:21] of lived experiences

[00:22:22] in your organization.

[00:22:23] You want people

[00:22:23] who approach problems

[00:22:25] perhaps in a different way

[00:22:26] and you want people

[00:22:28] who are going to bring

[00:22:29] a diverse set of opinions

[00:22:31] or ways of doing work

[00:22:32] into your organization.

[00:22:33] So,

[00:22:33] you know,

[00:22:34] I hear,

[00:22:36] you know,

[00:22:36] all of this hesitance

[00:22:37] around bringing diversity

[00:22:38] into organizations.

[00:22:39] I think that,

[00:22:40] you know,

[00:22:40] the tide will shift again

[00:22:42] and we'll be back

[00:22:44] to having this conversation,

[00:22:44] especially as we have

[00:22:45] population shifts.

[00:22:46] And if your organization

[00:22:47] is continuing

[00:22:49] to do this work,

[00:22:50] you'll find yourself

[00:22:51] way ahead.

[00:22:51] You'll find yourself

[00:22:52] having cracked the code,

[00:22:53] having figured out,

[00:22:54] oh,

[00:22:54] this is where we can bring

[00:22:55] more diversity

[00:22:56] into our organization.

[00:22:57] This is how to move people around

[00:22:58] and then increase diversity

[00:23:00] in other areas.

[00:23:01] This is where we want

[00:23:02] to place an investment,

[00:23:03] maybe in supporting

[00:23:05] a university program

[00:23:06] or even a high school program

[00:23:08] so that we can get

[00:23:08] more diversity

[00:23:09] into our organizations.

[00:23:10] A lot of different ways

[00:23:11] to think about it,

[00:23:12] but it's a sensitive

[00:23:13] conversation these days.

[00:23:14] Well, I know you say

[00:23:15] it's a slow process,

[00:23:16] but it's been my experience

[00:23:18] that in some organizations,

[00:23:19] it's a non-existent process.

[00:23:20] So hats off to you

[00:23:21] or recruiters

[00:23:23] that can really step

[00:23:24] into that space

[00:23:24] and make an impact.

[00:23:26] I'm really proud

[00:23:26] of recruiters

[00:23:27] in this sense

[00:23:28] because a lot of recruiters

[00:23:29] are very passionate

[00:23:31] and, you know,

[00:23:32] they're doing some

[00:23:32] of the same things

[00:23:32] that I'm doing.

[00:23:33] I'm, you know,

[00:23:34] bringing that I used to do,

[00:23:35] which was bring diversity

[00:23:36] into the organization

[00:23:36] without having a conversation

[00:23:37] about bringing diversity

[00:23:38] into the organization.

[00:23:38] And, you know,

[00:23:40] I've had hiring managers

[00:23:41] call me out.

[00:23:42] And I've had some hiring managers

[00:23:43] who just kind of were amused

[00:23:45] that all their candidates

[00:23:46] were women in, you know,

[00:23:48] in a division

[00:23:48] where they were all men

[00:23:49] and some didn't notice at all.

[00:23:50] Some had no idea

[00:23:51] that that's what I was doing.

[00:23:52] But bringing diversity

[00:23:53] into their organization

[00:23:54] was top of my mind

[00:23:55] and also top of mind

[00:23:57] for my HR business partner

[00:23:59] that I worked with

[00:24:00] as well as leaders

[00:24:01] in the organization.

[00:24:01] So sometimes managers

[00:24:02] don't have the full view

[00:24:04] and, you know,

[00:24:05] it's our job to help

[00:24:06] push managers over the edge

[00:24:07] and always be open

[00:24:08] for those conversations.

[00:24:10] It doesn't help

[00:24:11] to have those conversations

[00:24:12] and the hiring manager

[00:24:13] has a dire need

[00:24:15] to bring somebody in

[00:24:15] as soon as possible

[00:24:16] to get this work done, right?

[00:24:18] Have those conversations

[00:24:18] in between.

[00:24:19] Have those conversations,

[00:24:20] you know,

[00:24:21] before you have an open rec,

[00:24:22] after you have an open rec

[00:24:23] so that you can continuously

[00:24:25] work on this

[00:24:25] as a problem

[00:24:26] that you're all working to solve.

[00:24:27] Great.

[00:24:28] And you say in Chapter 7

[00:24:29] that you built an entire career

[00:24:31] on teaching managers

[00:24:33] and recruiters

[00:24:34] how to interview well.

[00:24:35] How would you describe

[00:24:36] a recruiter

[00:24:37] who interviews well?

[00:24:38] A recruiter

[00:24:39] who interviews well

[00:24:40] is 100% certain

[00:24:42] about what it is

[00:24:43] the hiring manager

[00:24:43] is looking for

[00:24:45] and they are also

[00:24:46] able to,

[00:24:48] without a whole lot of bias,

[00:24:50] understand whether or not

[00:24:51] the candidate

[00:24:52] in front of them

[00:24:52] has that skill

[00:24:53] or has that quality

[00:24:54] through the questioning

[00:24:55] that they're able

[00:24:56] to bring forth.

[00:24:57] I am not a fan

[00:24:58] of a big bank

[00:24:59] of interview questions.

[00:25:00] I'm not a fan

[00:25:01] of asking the same question

[00:25:03] of every candidate.

[00:25:04] It really is

[00:25:05] understanding your need

[00:25:06] and being really

[00:25:07] well-versed in that

[00:25:08] and then figuring out

[00:25:09] if this candidate

[00:25:10] meets the need

[00:25:10] and then going back

[00:25:11] to the hiring manager

[00:25:11] and saying,

[00:25:12] this candidate has A, B, C,

[00:25:13] but they don't have

[00:25:14] much of D.

[00:25:14] Not sure if that's going

[00:25:15] to work for your organization.

[00:25:16] If so,

[00:25:17] I think that because of

[00:25:18] X, Y, and Z,

[00:25:19] they'd be a great fit.

[00:25:20] If D is very important

[00:25:22] to you,

[00:25:22] I would advise you

[00:25:23] to say no.

[00:25:23] If you can get that person

[00:25:25] over that hump

[00:25:26] by training

[00:25:27] or partnering

[00:25:28] with another person

[00:25:29] on the team,

[00:25:29] then I think you've

[00:25:30] got a good fit.

[00:25:31] But you've got to be able

[00:25:31] to make that determination

[00:25:33] and that goes all the way

[00:25:34] back to your sourcing,

[00:25:35] which is really deeply

[00:25:36] understanding the role.

[00:25:38] I think that one of the things

[00:25:41] that is the most frustrating

[00:25:42] for me in a recruiting process

[00:25:44] is the post-interview decision-making.

[00:25:47] And it's a reason

[00:25:48] why I don't do it.

[00:25:49] It drives me crazy

[00:25:50] because if I self-screen

[00:25:51] and if I'm introducing

[00:25:53] a candidate,

[00:25:55] I'm advocating fiercely

[00:25:56] for a candidate.

[00:25:57] I felt in the past,

[00:25:58] I've never been a recruiter,

[00:25:59] but I've managed teams

[00:26:00] where I've been sitting

[00:26:01] at the table

[00:26:01] where people want

[00:26:03] to see somebody else

[00:26:04] or they have

[00:26:05] a different opinion.

[00:26:06] And I have a famous story

[00:26:08] where I was working

[00:26:08] someplace where

[00:26:09] I got so frustrated,

[00:26:11] I said to the hiring,

[00:26:13] there was multiple

[00:26:14] hiring managers

[00:26:15] for this position,

[00:26:15] I said,

[00:26:16] if you don't hire this person,

[00:26:17] I'm not helping you anymore,

[00:26:19] which of course

[00:26:19] is the wrong thing to say

[00:26:20] and probably why

[00:26:21] I'm not a professional recruiter.

[00:26:23] But in that post-interview

[00:26:26] decision-making process,

[00:26:28] I know compensation

[00:26:29] is one thing.

[00:26:29] Tell me about

[00:26:30] some important things,

[00:26:31] some important aspects

[00:26:33] of that period

[00:26:34] in the interview process.

[00:26:36] And how do you manage

[00:26:38] to push your,

[00:26:39] I always say that recruiters,

[00:26:41] it is a craft,

[00:26:42] it's a profession.

[00:26:43] And I once told a manager

[00:26:45] who was pushing back

[00:26:47] fiercely on the right decision

[00:26:49] that a recruiter

[00:26:50] was trying to make

[00:26:51] about a candidate

[00:26:51] or trying to get them

[00:26:52] to adopt about a candidate,

[00:26:53] that it happened

[00:26:54] to be a doctor.

[00:26:55] And I said,

[00:26:56] it's no more acceptable

[00:26:57] for you to tell a recruiter

[00:26:59] how to do her job

[00:27:00] than it would be

[00:27:00] for her to come down

[00:27:01] to the floor

[00:27:01] and tell you how

[00:27:02] to do surgery.

[00:27:03] And surprisingly,

[00:27:04] the doctor thought about it

[00:27:05] and said,

[00:27:05] I can see your point.

[00:27:06] I can see that

[00:27:07] and we were able

[00:27:07] to get through that.

[00:27:08] But how do you,

[00:27:10] in that crucial,

[00:27:11] that is a really,

[00:27:11] really critical time

[00:27:12] in terms of sealing

[00:27:13] the deal,

[00:27:14] not just for the recruiter,

[00:27:14] but also for the candidate

[00:27:15] and the hiring manager.

[00:27:17] What are some important things

[00:27:18] that you,

[00:27:18] if you were training

[00:27:19] a recruiter,

[00:27:20] to look out for

[00:27:21] or to consult

[00:27:22] with the hiring manager on?

[00:27:24] And I'm going to sound

[00:27:25] like a broken record,

[00:27:26] but it goes all the way back

[00:27:27] to having set up

[00:27:28] that criteria.

[00:27:29] What are the skills

[00:27:30] that you're looking for?

[00:27:31] What are the qualities

[00:27:31] that you're looking for?

[00:27:32] What's going to be,

[00:27:34] what's going to help you

[00:27:34] make the decision

[00:27:35] about whether or not

[00:27:35] the person is

[00:27:36] the right person for the job?

[00:27:37] And then the other piece

[00:27:38] is baking in

[00:27:39] for every single position,

[00:27:40] every single time,

[00:27:41] not allowing these conversations

[00:27:43] to happen,

[00:27:44] you know,

[00:27:44] without the recruiter present,

[00:27:46] but setting up

[00:27:46] that post-interview

[00:27:48] decision-making meeting.

[00:27:50] And my preference

[00:27:51] is to have that

[00:27:53] per candidate,

[00:27:54] not per group of candidates,

[00:27:55] because I want

[00:27:56] each candidate

[00:27:57] to be considered

[00:27:58] and then determined

[00:27:59] to be a fit

[00:27:59] or not a fit

[00:28:00] for the job.

[00:28:01] I think what happens

[00:28:02] is we get in the room,

[00:28:02] we've got five candidates,

[00:28:04] things start to get

[00:28:04] a little bit confusing

[00:28:05] and our decisions

[00:28:06] are a little bit fuzzier

[00:28:08] than they probably should be.

[00:28:09] When you are focused

[00:28:10] on one candidate,

[00:28:11] what they bring to the table,

[00:28:11] what they have,

[00:28:12] what they don't have,

[00:28:13] and then you get everyone

[00:28:13] to say yes or no

[00:28:15] based on that set of criteria

[00:28:16] that you put in front of them

[00:28:17] that they've seen already.

[00:28:18] And I would even back up

[00:28:20] a little bit further

[00:28:21] and I'd ensure

[00:28:22] that my interviewers

[00:28:24] were prepared.

[00:28:25] So often interviewers

[00:28:26] go into interviews

[00:28:28] without any direction

[00:28:29] about what it is

[00:28:30] that they're looking for,

[00:28:31] what their role,

[00:28:32] what their job is

[00:28:32] as an interviewer

[00:28:33] and what decision

[00:28:34] that they're making.

[00:28:35] And so give your interviewer

[00:28:36] a job.

[00:28:37] If you want that person

[00:28:37] to interview for skill one

[00:28:40] and skill two,

[00:28:41] then let them know

[00:28:42] and give the other interviewer

[00:28:44] skill three

[00:28:45] and skill four.

[00:28:46] And so you'll come back

[00:28:47] and you'll have

[00:28:48] a nice, well-rounded

[00:28:49] understanding of the candidate

[00:28:50] and maybe you've got

[00:28:51] a third interviewer

[00:28:52] who will look at

[00:28:53] skills two and three

[00:28:55] so that you've got

[00:28:56] a little extra coverage

[00:28:57] on those issues, right?

[00:28:58] And once they know

[00:28:59] that their job

[00:28:59] is to make the decision

[00:29:01] based on those qualities

[00:29:02] or those skills,

[00:29:04] they're a lot more comfortable.

[00:29:05] They have a lot more direction

[00:29:06] around what to ask.

[00:29:08] And we assume

[00:29:09] that people know

[00:29:10] how to interview,

[00:29:10] but they don't.

[00:29:11] And helping hiring managers

[00:29:14] and their hiring teams

[00:29:15] understand what to ask

[00:29:17] and why they're asking it

[00:29:18] and then to come back

[00:29:19] and bring that feedback

[00:29:19] and make a decision

[00:29:20] based on what they learned.

[00:29:21] Not that they won't

[00:29:22] learn other things

[00:29:23] and they can share that

[00:29:24] as part of the interview

[00:29:26] roundup as well,

[00:29:27] but you want to make sure

[00:29:28] that each person

[00:29:29] has a job to do.

[00:29:30] And when they come back

[00:29:30] as a hiring manager,

[00:29:32] you're counting on them

[00:29:33] to come back with information

[00:29:33] about skill one

[00:29:34] and skill two.

[00:29:35] And that's how you are going

[00:29:36] to make your decision as well.

[00:29:37] That just makes it easy

[00:29:38] for everyone.

[00:29:39] And once you get into

[00:29:40] the habit of doing that,

[00:29:42] it's a 15 minute meeting

[00:29:43] where you say yes or no.

[00:29:45] Everyone shares their opinion.

[00:29:47] After you've heard

[00:29:48] everyone's opinion,

[00:29:48] I go through

[00:29:49] and get them to vote again

[00:29:51] just to make certain.

[00:29:52] And I don't allow maybes.

[00:29:54] Maybe to me equals no.

[00:29:56] So if you are 100% certain

[00:29:58] that this person

[00:29:58] has everything

[00:29:59] that you're looking for

[00:29:59] or 90% is good enough

[00:30:01] and that is what you want,

[00:30:02] great.

[00:30:03] If you're saying maybe,

[00:30:04] maybe we'll meet someone better,

[00:30:06] what you're saying to me is no.

[00:30:07] And that's what I'll tell you

[00:30:08] as the recruiter

[00:30:09] and I'll go and I'll release

[00:30:10] that candidate into the wild.

[00:30:11] I think we are just afraid.

[00:30:14] We're afraid.

[00:30:15] And there are many people out there,

[00:30:17] many people who can do the job.

[00:30:18] Most work,

[00:30:19] if you work most open positions,

[00:30:21] if you put the work into it,

[00:30:22] you'll get it filled.

[00:30:23] So just feel very confident

[00:30:25] in the decisions

[00:30:26] that you're making.

[00:30:27] I feel very confident saying no.

[00:30:28] Most of the time

[00:30:29] you're going to say no.

[00:30:30] But putting people aside

[00:30:31] and having them wait,

[00:30:32] it's the worst thing in the world.

[00:30:33] I just,

[00:30:34] oh yeah,

[00:30:35] I don't do that.

[00:30:38] You know what you should know?

[00:30:40] You should know

[00:30:41] the You Should Know podcast.

[00:30:43] That's what you should know.

[00:30:44] Because then you'd be in the know

[00:30:46] on all things

[00:30:47] that are timely and topical.

[00:30:49] Subscribe to the

[00:30:50] You Should Know podcast.

[00:30:52] Thanks.

[00:30:53] Agreed.

[00:30:53] Well, in cycling through your book,

[00:30:56] I remember in chapter 10,

[00:30:57] which was about building

[00:30:59] a great recruiting team.

[00:31:01] You said,

[00:31:01] let me see if I remember,

[00:31:02] you said there were four things

[00:31:03] that were important.

[00:31:05] Qualities of the recruiter's skills,

[00:31:07] achievement,

[00:31:08] and I believe motivation

[00:31:10] was the fourth thing.

[00:31:12] Same word.

[00:31:12] Absolutely.

[00:31:13] So that's how I interview.

[00:31:14] That's how I interview everyone.

[00:31:15] That's how I have thought

[00:31:17] about interviewing.

[00:31:18] My recruiting toolbox training

[00:31:20] drills that into me

[00:31:21] and probably into many others.

[00:31:22] We are looking for people

[00:31:23] who, of course,

[00:31:24] have the skills as a recruiter.

[00:31:26] And as a recruiting leader,

[00:31:27] your need for skills may vary.

[00:31:29] And I learned this early on

[00:31:31] when I started managing teams.

[00:31:33] Sometimes you needed someone

[00:31:34] with that great sense of sourcing

[00:31:36] and could have great conversations

[00:31:37] with hiring managers.

[00:31:39] Sometimes you needed someone

[00:31:40] who was really great

[00:31:41] at sifting through tons of candidates

[00:31:44] and putting forth the best candidates

[00:31:45] in front of the managers.

[00:31:46] Sourcing was not necessarily an issue.

[00:31:48] So understanding that piece of it

[00:31:50] as a leader, as a manager,

[00:31:51] what you need on your team

[00:31:52] is important.

[00:31:54] Understanding the kind of qualities,

[00:31:57] some call them competencies,

[00:31:59] whatever you want to call them,

[00:32:01] that's needed in your organization.

[00:32:03] So if it is important

[00:32:04] that this recruiter be able

[00:32:06] to speak up and speak his mind

[00:32:08] and share what needs to be shared

[00:32:10] in your culture

[00:32:11] in order to get work done

[00:32:12] in order to get really good work done,

[00:32:14] then that's what you're going

[00:32:14] to be looking for.

[00:32:15] If you need someone

[00:32:16] who is more of a consensus-driven person

[00:32:18] who's going to get people together

[00:32:19] to make decisions,

[00:32:20] then that's what you're looking for.

[00:32:21] But you need to sort of

[00:32:22] really think through,

[00:32:23] what do I need?

[00:32:24] And then really understanding

[00:32:26] the motivations

[00:32:27] for doing the work, right?

[00:32:29] What makes this person excited?

[00:32:32] Is this person really just

[00:32:32] trying to get into HR

[00:32:34] and they are considering

[00:32:35] this recruiting job

[00:32:36] as a stepping stone?

[00:32:37] In that case,

[00:32:38] I probably don't want

[00:32:39] that person on my team.

[00:32:40] I'm a dyed-in-the-wool recruiter

[00:32:42] and I want other people around me

[00:32:43] who love recruiting,

[00:32:44] who love talking about recruiting,

[00:32:44] who love figuring out

[00:32:45] how to do it better.

[00:32:48] I'm interested in recruiting

[00:32:49] as a profession.

[00:32:50] It's likely not going to do well

[00:32:51] on my team.

[00:32:52] I'm going to notice that.

[00:32:53] So understanding that piece of it.

[00:32:55] And then the fourth one,

[00:32:56] what they've done

[00:32:57] and really making sure

[00:32:59] a lot of times interviews,

[00:33:00] they go poorly

[00:33:01] simply because they've asked

[00:33:03] a lot of hypothetical questions.

[00:33:04] They haven't dived very deeply

[00:33:06] into what the candidate

[00:33:08] has actually accomplished,

[00:33:09] what they've done.

[00:33:10] So if I know that I've got

[00:33:12] a hot tech recruiting team

[00:33:13] with great need

[00:33:16] for software developers

[00:33:17] who can do X, Y, and Z,

[00:33:19] I want to make sure

[00:33:20] that they've been able

[00:33:21] to do that.

[00:33:22] I want proof.

[00:33:22] And so if I'm looking

[00:33:23] for a recruiter

[00:33:24] that I know is going

[00:33:25] to lead this team,

[00:33:26] I want to make sure

[00:33:26] that they have worked

[00:33:27] with tech recruiting teams

[00:33:29] and they speak that language

[00:33:30] and they're comfortable

[00:33:31] doing that.

[00:33:31] So if you've got

[00:33:33] all four of those qualities

[00:33:35] and you've thought deeply

[00:33:36] about what that looks like,

[00:33:38] then you should be able

[00:33:38] to select a recruiter

[00:33:40] that will do well for you.

[00:33:41] But it's a little bit tricky sometimes

[00:33:45] because recruiters are talkers.

[00:33:47] Like, yeah.

[00:33:48] So.

[00:33:50] How much does you talk

[00:33:53] in the book

[00:33:54] about employer branding?

[00:33:55] Yes.

[00:33:56] And I know people often

[00:33:59] mistake employer branding

[00:34:00] for any number of things.

[00:34:03] So what does employer branding

[00:34:04] mean to you

[00:34:04] and how important is that

[00:34:06] in the recruiting process?

[00:34:07] How do you use employer branding

[00:34:08] to successfully recruit?

[00:34:10] I think the first thing

[00:34:11] is really understanding

[00:34:13] what it is that you want

[00:34:15] to build as an organization.

[00:34:16] So starting very broadly

[00:34:18] and having some thoughts

[00:34:20] about I'd like to build

[00:34:21] an organization of smart people

[00:34:23] who can be flexible

[00:34:24] and move into other roles

[00:34:25] as needed

[00:34:26] and can grow within the company

[00:34:28] or, you know what,

[00:34:28] I need a slate of really hot shots

[00:34:31] who can come in

[00:34:31] and give us the best ideas

[00:34:32] and they probably have

[00:34:33] a two or three year runway

[00:34:34] and then they're out,

[00:34:35] they're going to do something else.

[00:34:36] So really thinking about

[00:34:37] the type of person

[00:34:38] that you'd like to bring

[00:34:39] into your organization

[00:34:40] and having conversations

[00:34:41] with your leaders

[00:34:42] and with your managers

[00:34:43] about what that really looks like.

[00:34:44] And once you've done that,

[00:34:46] then you can go into

[00:34:47] how do I figure out

[00:34:48] what messaging

[00:34:49] I should share with candidates

[00:34:50] to attract them

[00:34:52] to my organization?

[00:34:53] So understanding

[00:34:54] the type of candidate

[00:34:54] that you are typically looking for

[00:34:56] across a lot

[00:34:57] of different functions

[00:34:58] and then figuring out

[00:34:59] how do I deliver

[00:35:00] the kind of messaging

[00:35:01] that I have never purported

[00:35:04] to be an expert

[00:35:06] on employer branding.

[00:35:08] I know it when I see it

[00:35:09] because you look at

[00:35:11] some career websites,

[00:35:12] for example,

[00:35:13] for some organizations,

[00:35:14] they just match

[00:35:16] the kind of people

[00:35:17] who join those organizations

[00:35:19] and the messaging

[00:35:20] is pretty clear.

[00:35:22] When I worked at Amazon,

[00:35:23] it was,

[00:35:25] we leveraged the saying,

[00:35:27] work hard, play hard.

[00:35:29] And that's the kind

[00:35:30] of organization we were

[00:35:31] at least back then

[00:35:32] when I was working for them.

[00:35:33] We worked hard.

[00:35:33] We worked long hours.

[00:35:35] We put our all into it.

[00:35:36] But we also had a lot of fun

[00:35:37] as a team together.

[00:35:38] We had a lot of fun

[00:35:39] outside of work together.

[00:35:41] And that was,

[00:35:42] work hard, have fun,

[00:35:43] make history.

[00:35:44] That's what it was.

[00:35:45] Oh yeah, I remember that.

[00:35:46] Remember that?

[00:35:46] I do remember that now.

[00:35:48] Yeah.

[00:35:48] And that's really

[00:35:50] what we wanted to do.

[00:35:52] And that, you know,

[00:35:55] if you didn't want to work hard,

[00:35:56] you didn't last long

[00:35:57] on Amazon

[00:35:57] because that's just

[00:35:58] the kind of company

[00:35:59] that it was.

[00:36:00] And we had a lot of fun

[00:36:01] while we were doing it.

[00:36:02] And I think of, you know,

[00:36:04] people writing the,

[00:36:05] you know,

[00:36:06] what do you call that?

[00:36:07] The machine things

[00:36:08] up and down the hallways

[00:36:09] and having a good time.

[00:36:12] And also we were building

[00:36:13] something that had

[00:36:14] never been built before.

[00:36:15] So that gave us

[00:36:16] the sort of history perspective.

[00:36:18] And I want to talk

[00:36:19] a little bit about too

[00:36:19] before we close out here

[00:36:21] is the legality

[00:36:22] of recruiting.

[00:36:23] I know in one of the chapters

[00:36:25] of the book,

[00:36:26] you talk about recruiting

[00:36:27] and legal requirements.

[00:36:28] And it's always interesting

[00:36:30] when I talk to teams

[00:36:32] about even what you can ask

[00:36:35] and what you can't ask

[00:36:36] in an interview process

[00:36:38] and what actually a candidate

[00:36:40] is or even an applicant

[00:36:42] for that matter

[00:36:43] is entitled to

[00:36:44] in terms of protections.

[00:36:46] And so I think

[00:36:47] that's a really big piece

[00:36:48] that is lacking

[00:36:49] even at the hiring manager level

[00:36:51] because so many people

[00:36:52] think that you don't look

[00:36:53] at a name, for example,

[00:36:55] on a resume

[00:36:55] or God forbid,

[00:36:57] the candidate has put

[00:36:58] an address on the resume.

[00:36:59] They'll look at an address

[00:36:59] and, you know,

[00:37:00] I don't want anybody

[00:37:00] from that neighborhood

[00:37:01] or, you know,

[00:37:02] that name, you know,

[00:37:03] doesn't sound quite,

[00:37:04] you know,

[00:37:05] milquetoast enough

[00:37:06] or Anglo enough.

[00:37:07] And so it always amazes me

[00:37:09] that people don't realize

[00:37:11] that there is a legal component

[00:37:13] to recruiting.

[00:37:14] What is the largest landmine,

[00:37:15] legal landmine

[00:37:16] that you've run into

[00:37:17] in terms of, you know,

[00:37:19] recruiting

[00:37:19] or mistakes

[00:37:21] that recruiters might make

[00:37:22] in this recruiting process

[00:37:24] or assumptions

[00:37:25] that they might make?

[00:37:26] Oh, absolutely.

[00:37:26] I think, first of all,

[00:37:28] understanding what legalities

[00:37:29] are around recruiting.

[00:37:30] And there are, you know,

[00:37:31] probably a set of 30 to 40

[00:37:33] to maybe 50 rules

[00:37:34] that we are governed by

[00:37:35] that really do have an impact

[00:37:37] on whether or not

[00:37:38] what we're doing is legal.

[00:37:40] So first of all,

[00:37:40] making sure that you understand

[00:37:41] this backwards and forwards.

[00:37:43] Every time I would deliver

[00:37:44] interview training

[00:37:45] to an organization

[00:37:46] as part of a consultant

[00:37:48] at Recruiting Toolbox,

[00:37:48] I would mention to

[00:37:50] the recruiting leader,

[00:37:51] hey, let's talk about

[00:37:52] the legal piece.

[00:37:53] Oh, everyone knows it.

[00:37:54] I don't think everyone knows it.

[00:37:55] We do a little test

[00:37:56] and people didn't know it.

[00:37:57] And it actually

[00:37:58] is the piece

[00:37:59] that frightens

[00:38:00] a lot of managers.

[00:38:00] They know that there are rules.

[00:38:01] They know that there are laws.

[00:38:02] They don't know what they are

[00:38:03] and they're afraid to ask.

[00:38:04] And so they'd rather just,

[00:38:05] you know,

[00:38:06] hang on to some sheet of paper

[00:38:07] that HR gave them

[00:38:08] and ask those questions.

[00:38:09] But it's not hard

[00:38:10] to understand.

[00:38:11] It's not hard to

[00:38:13] understand what's legal

[00:38:14] and what isn't.

[00:38:15] It just takes

[00:38:15] a little bit of knowledge

[00:38:16] and making sure

[00:38:17] that it's shared.

[00:38:19] Making sure that it's shared

[00:38:19] not only with your recruiting team,

[00:38:21] but with your hiring teams

[00:38:22] and with your hiring managers.

[00:38:24] You know,

[00:38:25] I've gotten the call

[00:38:26] from a candidate

[00:38:27] and they told me,

[00:38:29] they said,

[00:38:29] look,

[00:38:29] I'm not going to sue you this time,

[00:38:30] but here are some of the questions

[00:38:32] that I was asked.

[00:38:32] And this was a woman candidate

[00:38:34] who was pregnant

[00:38:36] and all kinds of questions

[00:38:38] were asked.

[00:38:38] And so that meant

[00:38:39] that that hiring team

[00:38:40] couldn't hire anyone

[00:38:41] until we had a nice

[00:38:42] interview training course.

[00:38:44] And it was great

[00:38:45] because they were shocked

[00:38:46] by some of the things

[00:38:47] that they learned

[00:38:48] that they shouldn't be asking.

[00:38:49] So lunch and learns,

[00:38:50] make sure that your hiring managers

[00:38:52] have access to those materials

[00:38:54] and spot checks all the time.

[00:38:57] And things change, right?

[00:38:59] Such as in our state,

[00:39:01] you know,

[00:39:02] discussing salary

[00:39:03] has taken on a different,

[00:39:05] there's a different approach

[00:39:06] that you must take

[00:39:07] and making sure

[00:39:08] that everyone's aware

[00:39:08] and everyone's trained

[00:39:09] is really important.

[00:39:10] So that's a big piece of it.

[00:39:12] This book really occurs to me

[00:39:14] when I picked this book up.

[00:39:15] I wish this is something

[00:39:16] that when I started managing

[00:39:19] recruiting teams in HR

[00:39:21] that I'd had,

[00:39:22] I would have purchased this

[00:39:23] for every last one

[00:39:23] of my recruiters.

[00:39:24] I think this book

[00:39:25] is really good,

[00:39:26] you know,

[00:39:27] especially for people

[00:39:28] who might not be

[00:39:29] experienced recruiters.

[00:39:30] It's kind of a step-by-step

[00:39:32] playbook.

[00:39:33] Like the title says

[00:39:35] of the process

[00:39:36] and tips and pitfalls,

[00:39:39] it was a really good read.

[00:39:41] And so if there was

[00:39:42] one piece of advice

[00:39:44] that you could give people

[00:39:46] going into the recruiting arena,

[00:39:48] what would it be?

[00:39:49] I know that,

[00:39:49] you know,

[00:39:50] with me,

[00:39:51] I did not,

[00:39:52] when I was 11 years old,

[00:39:52] I didn't say,

[00:39:53] when I grow up,

[00:39:54] I want to be an HR leader.

[00:39:55] It's something that I fell into.

[00:39:57] Quite frankly,

[00:39:57] I'm really glad.

[00:39:58] It was a wonderful profession

[00:40:00] to fall into.

[00:40:00] But sometimes I get the feeling

[00:40:02] I've managed recruiters

[00:40:03] that they were on a path

[00:40:04] somewhere else

[00:40:05] and that's kind of where

[00:40:06] they landed

[00:40:07] or they are on a path

[00:40:08] to somewhere else

[00:40:09] and they're using recruiting

[00:40:10] as a stepping stone.

[00:40:11] I still see it as very much

[00:40:12] a profession and a career.

[00:40:14] What would you,

[00:40:15] if you were talking to

[00:40:16] a group of,

[00:40:18] say, for example,

[00:40:19] UW students

[00:40:20] that were trying to

[00:40:23] consider, you know,

[00:40:24] what their career

[00:40:25] was going to be,

[00:40:26] you know,

[00:40:26] in human resources world

[00:40:28] or considering careers

[00:40:30] as recruiters,

[00:40:30] what would you say to them?

[00:40:31] That's interesting

[00:40:32] because I fell into

[00:40:34] recruiting as well.

[00:40:35] I'm glad I did

[00:40:35] because it really does

[00:40:36] marry all those

[00:40:38] activities that I love to do.

[00:40:39] And for me,

[00:40:41] it is really deeply

[00:40:43] understanding the company

[00:40:44] at a meta level.

[00:40:46] So especially as a leader,

[00:40:48] understanding what

[00:40:49] is most important

[00:40:50] to the company,

[00:40:51] what's most important

[00:40:51] to its success,

[00:40:52] what's most important

[00:40:53] in terms of building out

[00:40:54] the skills that the teams have,

[00:40:56] understanding that very deeply,

[00:40:58] but yet not being

[00:40:59] as deeply intertwined

[00:41:01] into what's happening

[00:41:02] in the organization

[00:41:02] because you have to have

[00:41:03] another foot out the door

[00:41:04] looking at the talent market,

[00:41:05] looking at what skills

[00:41:06] people are developing,

[00:41:07] other companies are

[00:41:08] training their people

[00:41:09] how they are coming

[00:41:10] into the organization.

[00:41:11] So it is,

[00:41:12] I think it straddles

[00:41:13] both the internal

[00:41:14] and the external.

[00:41:15] That's probably

[00:41:16] what I love about it.

[00:41:17] And I think that

[00:41:18] if you have that love,

[00:41:20] if you love talking

[00:41:21] to people and understanding

[00:41:21] what they're doing

[00:41:22] and how they might

[00:41:22] do something differently

[00:41:23] and how that might impact

[00:41:25] what you're able to do

[00:41:26] at your company

[00:41:27] and if you love

[00:41:27] learning about

[00:41:28] these are our growth plans

[00:41:30] and here's how

[00:41:30] we're going to get there

[00:41:31] and here's the people

[00:41:31] that we need to do it.

[00:41:32] If you like being

[00:41:33] in the middle of that,

[00:41:34] that's what makes

[00:41:35] this an interesting job.

[00:41:36] If you want to be

[00:41:38] more barreled

[00:41:39] into what the company

[00:41:40] is doing,

[00:41:41] recruiting is not

[00:41:42] the world for you

[00:41:42] because you've got

[00:41:43] to keep one eye

[00:41:44] on the outside

[00:41:44] to do it well.

[00:41:45] So it's an interesting

[00:41:46] profession for sure

[00:41:48] and it's not built

[00:41:49] for everyone

[00:41:50] but for those of us

[00:41:51] who love it,

[00:41:52] it's a lot of fun.

[00:41:53] Oh, great.

[00:41:54] Yeah, great advice.

[00:41:55] The Corporate Recruiting Playbook,

[00:41:57] where can people

[00:41:58] get your book?

[00:41:59] It's on Amazon.com

[00:42:01] and that's the only place

[00:42:02] I decided to sell it

[00:42:03] since I have an affinity

[00:42:05] for Amazon

[00:42:05] and yeah,

[00:42:07] it's the project

[00:42:08] that keeps on going,

[00:42:09] keeps on giving.

[00:42:10] Yeah.

[00:42:10] Well, thank you, Carmen.

[00:42:11] I think this was

[00:42:11] a really great read

[00:42:12] and I would love to be,

[00:42:16] I'm actually going

[00:42:17] to purchase this book

[00:42:17] for my recruiter

[00:42:20] because I think

[00:42:21] it might answer

[00:42:21] a lot of the questions

[00:42:22] that I get

[00:42:23] on a daily basis

[00:42:24] about this recruiting process.

[00:42:26] I found it to be

[00:42:27] really great

[00:42:27] and literally,

[00:42:29] step-by-step

[00:42:30] of what you should know

[00:42:31] and so thanks

[00:42:32] for writing this.

[00:42:32] It was a really good read

[00:42:34] and it's a really

[00:42:35] good resource as well

[00:42:36] so I appreciate it.

[00:42:37] Thank you.

[00:42:37] Thank you for interviewing

[00:42:38] and thank you

[00:42:39] for your thoughtful questions.

[00:42:40] I really appreciate that.

[00:42:41] Yes, you're welcome.

[00:42:42] Thank you for being available.

[00:42:43] What are you working on next?

[00:42:45] I'm working on,

[00:42:45] I'm consulting

[00:42:46] and possibly working

[00:42:47] on writing another book.

[00:42:49] Okay, well,

[00:42:49] I can't wait.

[00:42:51] Fantastic.

[00:42:51] A salacious recruiting book.

[00:42:53] No, no, no.

[00:42:55] So thank you.

[00:42:56] With that,

[00:42:57] I think I will

[00:42:57] end our program.

[00:42:59] Okay, thank you.

[00:43:00] Thank you.

[00:43:01] Bye-bye.