HR, We Have a Problem - Skills vs. Tenure: How modern organizations leverage career architecture to make promotion decisions.

[00:00:00] There's data that suggests early career professionals from a development perspective value being in the office with actual mentors. And if leadership is in the office, they'll have more visible sponsorship. I think when you have hybrid teams, things can get imbalanced and feedback skills can get broken when some people are in the room and some virtually.

[00:00:24] So I would say you can't underestimate how you need to invest in people's communication skills, their conflict management skills, how to ask for and give timely feedback and not just wait for it from a manager but with peers. And there's enough written on psychological safety, but that just means everyone's voice is on the table and people don't feel whether they're online or in the room that it's not safe to speak up.

[00:00:53] Welcome to the HR Huddle Podcast presented by Sapient Insights Group, the ultimate resource for all things HR. It's time to get in the huddle. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the HR Huddle. I'm your host, Terri Zipper, CEO and managing partner at Sapient Insights Group.

[00:01:21] And we're back for another exciting episode of HR. We have a problem. This is the show where we break down the big and most relevant HR issues of the day. We help you make sense of what they mean for you. And we talk about what you might do about them. I have a bit of a duo today. Joining me is Bob Hanley and Kim Nugent.

[00:01:43] Bob is an HR executive who has served in leadership roles at places like Abbott Labs, Whirlpool, University of Chicago Medicine over his career. Kim is currently an HR consultant working on client projects at places like Abbott Labs, Cigna and Microsoft. Welcome, Bob and Kim. Great to have you both. Nice to be here. Thank you.

[00:02:09] You both have a long and storied career. And for full transparency, Kim and I spent some time together at Mercer a while ago doing comp and talent and going around the Midwest selling technology. So the good old days. The two of you worked together, though, on some competency-based broadbanding project back in the day, Bob, when you were at Abbott. Right.

[00:02:36] And that was sort of designed to encourage development and mobility. And I think they're still doing some of that stuff today. With development mobility as the backdrop, I'd love to get into how the future of careers is evolving, what organizations need to be doing, and what tools they need to enhance to improve the employee experience and make sure they're acquiring the best talent. Does that sound like a good plan to you?

[00:03:06] Sure. Absolutely. Then let's get into the huddle. Let's start by getting in the Wayback Machine for a minute, because I think this is relevant for how we got here. And we've had some conversations around this. I mentioned, Bob, in the opening that you and Kim worked on a project together when you were at Abbott that was really designed to encourage development and mobility, which we all know are key today. Tell us a little bit more about the program and what you learned.

[00:03:36] I think it's always good to get a little bit of a history lesson. Some of the lessons are still valid. Others might be a cautionary tale of what not to do, right? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, keep in mind that that work that we had done, Kim and I had done, was close to 25 years ago. So just sort of to set the context.

[00:04:00] What I'd say is that as I think back of that work, the culture of the organization, I think, really was the catalyst for the current state of affairs at Abbott. And the current state of affairs at Abbott was that the culture was very hierarchical. And in fact, I had, you know, prior to that, never seen work for an organization that it was that prominent. The reason it was that way was because, well, there's a variety of reasons.

[00:04:30] You know, certainly the CEO had a certain mindset in terms of culture and employees and so forth. But the pay structure that was developed over the years there really created this culture. And it did so by attaching everything you could possibly think of to pay structures, to grades. And so there was a huge emphasis on status and grades in that organization.

[00:05:00] And mobility and career development was one way. It was vertical. And it was anything you needed to do to get to that next grade because that next grade afforded you greater base salary, greater incentive opportunity, greater equity, and greater, more attractive parking, if you can imagine. And you were invited to certain meetings.

[00:05:53] And you were invited to encourage people to develop themselves with the right competencies that were right for them, but equally as important, right for the organization. We needed to remove those barriers. We needed to remove that structure and work outside of a completely different structure and get the employees to trust us that we could move vertically. We could move horizontally and still gain that competency and gain pay, increased pay or increased incentives.

[00:06:21] So it wasn't solely dependent on that structure. So that was sort of the mantra. That was the mission to achieve. And we started in piloting this in, of all places, the human resources group, where we were faced with a lot of resistance in our own organization.

[00:06:39] But as we began to utilize what we developed and people began to trust what we were doing and see people that would move laterally and what would appear to be a lower grade position under the old system and get a raise and get an increase for spending time in there to sort of round out their background and experiences, people began to become believers.

[00:07:08] And so as I look back 25 years ago, that work was pretty, I think, pretty ahead of its time when we did that work. Because as we see now, a lot of flexibility in pay architectures exist and people are moving diagonally, horizontally, vertically, and so forth. So I know, Kim, if you have other things that you would add, that would be great. Sure.

[00:07:36] I think even though the project was long ago, what strikes me in a very big organization with a lot of hierarchy is the importance of change management and don't underestimate what it takes to disengage from the current state. So not only with HR, with the business, a couple ads are we had a co-creation strategy. And we also made sure that the designers just weren't comp and talent people.

[00:08:04] We involved trainers and communicators early in the process versus at the ninth hour. Because if you don't think about change and you don't have a budget, that won't get done. The other thing is, I think back, is we have a fascination with identifying what good looks like. How many levels? What are the competencies? What are the skills? What are the values?

[00:08:29] And what I learned from that project and many more since is that oftentimes organizations focus too much on what framework, goals, skills, competencies, value will save the day. Where we really need to focus on or add to that is how are we going to elevate our communication, feedback, conflict management, trust, and psychological safety skills.

[00:08:53] Half the battle around moving up diagonally, laterally, or if you deserve a promotion or more pay, really is anchored in those conversations. And it's conversations and trust with others that drive high performance. Yeah. What was the, just for scale perspectives, what was the scale of this project? Like how many employees did you guys have at the time and just how big was this?

[00:09:23] So as I mentioned, we piloted this in the human resources organization on a global basis. So we had probably, you know, several hundreds of people who were part of the HR organizations. And I was thinking when we, when we implemented this, we spent a lot of time thinking about how to go about getting this out, this message out to the organization.

[00:09:48] And I don't know, Kim, if you remember, it's been a long time, but we actually presented to several hundreds of people who came in from around the globe to the headquarters. And we demonstrated through a skit, if you will, of all things, of how to deal with development conversations and opportunities for employees.

[00:10:10] And we did this compare and contrast where we started off and we, by the way, got lots of the HR leaders and vice presidents involved in this skit. But we, we got on stage and we set up, you know, we sort of choreographed it and, and, and I narrated it and we had all these people involved. And what we did was we demonstrated the current way of developing people's skills, which was somewhat comical.

[00:10:38] We sort of poked fun at ourselves of how we did this. And, you know, people would take any job they could possibly take so long as it was vertical, it was upward and it gave them more stock options or gave them whatever. So we sort of poked fun at our, you know, the way we were doing things. And then, you know, the skit sort of took a serious turn where we demonstrated the proper way of thinking about developing skills and that it was okay to move down what appeared to be downward just to, to obtain those, those skills.

[00:11:08] So it was, it was a, you know, smaller group relative to the entire AVID organization, but it was, you know, we needed to start somewhere. And, and, you know, we, we took very personally the fact that we were starting in our own, our own organization. We weren't going to test this on somebody else. We were going to get, get it right with ourselves and then begin to deploy it elsewhere in the organization. So. Yeah.

[00:11:34] Terry, one add there sometime after working with Bob, what I found as a pattern in many companies, I went to another life sciences company and they started with the marketing function. 1,200 people globally went to another organization. They started with the finance function. So what I find is typically an organization has different functions that are critical to capability building or they want to make something happen.

[00:12:05] And I use the field of dreams sort of scenario, build it and they will come. So organizations want new mobility paths because they want people with the right portfolio of experiences and skills that can bring the organization forward. And if you operate from a hierarchy perspective, that doesn't always happen. Have you ever wondered what really makes a generation tick? Who gets to pick the name and why the slang keeps changing? Don't worry. I can help.

[00:12:34] My name is Dr. Megan Grace on hashtag Gen Z. I share the voices and experiences of Generation Z, how they're different from other generations, what moves them and why they do what they do. In each episode, we go beyond the buzzwords and the stereotypes to dive into real conversations and the insights that matter to making intergenerational collaboration a reality. You can catch hashtag Gen Z on the Work to Find podcast network and wherever you listen to podcasts. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:02] And it's easy to take for granted what people know and understand about this process. I love the skit idea, right? You sort of gave people real, real live people acting out what, you know, what that process looks like. And we, you know, because we understand it at some level and we teach it to leaders and managers, we kind of just, you know, sometimes the employee can get lost in that process.

[00:13:31] And they're not necessarily focused on what's my list of skills. They're focused on how do I get to the next level? So, Kim, to your point, that idea of promotion. So, shifting gears a little bit on the topic of promotion is really a key aspect of that sort of development and our ability to move throughout the organization. I know you've both traveled across workplaces.

[00:13:59] You know, what's the same, what's different about how these promotion decisions get made as a result of, you know, what we're doing with regard to skills? Bob, do you have, do you want to comment on that? Yeah, I think a lot has. You know, when I think back when I first started working, you know, I worked for 42 years. So, back in the early 80s, you think about what the employment relationship was with employees and organizations.

[00:14:29] You know, you were sort of lucky to have a job back then. And when you got a job, you sort of stayed with that job for many, many years. Yeah. And it wasn't until, and that was very popular. And that was very attractive for someone to say, I spent 30 years with a particular organization. And I think, you know, as you move through the decade, a lot of that changed.

[00:14:49] And I think people who, you know, the loyalty sort of shifted and people who were marketable and mobile geographically looked at opportunities. And then that whole employment relationship changed in a way that it became very popular and very valued for someone who had worked for a number of different companies, who had seen different ways of doing things. And that became an asset for folks. So, that was sort of the evolution.

[00:15:18] But, you know, there's, with respect to promotions, I think in the past, you know, promotions were often based on tenure and loyalty to the company. You know, today it's much more focused on performance and skills and results than just time served. Companies today are using analytics, I think, much more in performance metrics to assess employees. And they're sort of reducing the reliance on, you know, subjective opinions about, you know, so-and-so should be promoted.

[00:15:48] It's time for that person. A lot of the soft skills are becoming much more important today. Things like emotional intelligence and adaptability, those kinds of things. You see much more of that today. You know, vertical moves only is something of the past. And again, we thought about this 25 years ago at Abbott. Now, it's not so unusual to see lateral moves of people to gain skills and increase their pay.

[00:16:18] So, there's a lot, I think, that has changed over the years, you know, when it comes to all the inputs to whether someone gets promoted. And I think, you know, having said that, I think there are some things that have endured over the years as well that haven't really changed since 1980s when I started working. And that is that, at the end of the day, performance matters. It's all about performance and relationship and influence matters.

[00:16:46] And I think leadership skills also are timeless in terms of the ability to lead people, the ability to inspire people, to drive change in an organization. Those are some of the things that have been constant. As I look back on my career for 42 years, that has always been the case. So, I think, you know, those are some of the things of, you know, as a look back over time, the things that have really changed for me. Yeah.

[00:17:16] Kim, how are managers and technologies supporting this or making it harder? I mean, there's a lot of technology out there right now. There's, you know, a lot of training for managers. Although, I do worry that sort of that whole leadership development has gotten a little bit lost over the last five years with COVID and some of the other things that we've been experiencing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:42] A couple of thoughts on the topic of promotions, technology, and manager development. The first thing I want to bring up is we have more better HRS technology and the ability to do modeling and workforce analytics. I think what's interesting is sometimes the insights can validate what we were hoping to see, and sometimes we can be left exposed. At the end of the day, promotions drive wealth creation.

[00:18:09] And what I found in most organizations, it's that director level that often comes with growing incentives and perhaps stock eligibility. And people, both traditional managers and perhaps technical individual contributors, want to know the rules of the game. How do I get to that level? So, that is really the same.

[00:18:31] What technology and analytics can do is actually make your invisible talent strategy visible. It can distill what are the movement patterns and consequences of those patterns. Are the right performers getting rewarded and promoted? Do we see any unconscious biases playing out?

[00:18:54] Are we reinforcing lateral moves and different patterns that build the right capabilities we need? And who is getting these opportunities? So, what's interesting is you can see intended and unintended consequences in the data. One of the things that I bring up, because still leadership is a way to earn more money, but I coach people when it comes to early career professionals.

[00:19:22] Who is getting the early career P&L responsibility in your organization? Those entry-level roles with a P&L, wherever they sit and however small, are oftentimes the steps for future advancement. So, paying attention to who's getting those roles really matters. So, those are some things that I think about. The other thing is I think patients are struggling with manager development.

[00:19:52] Do we bring people together in person to build their social networks? Do we do things online? Are people burned out by too much online? So, I think the basic still manner around manager and leadership development. But it's been getting sort of uncanny with how do we actually design an experience that people will engage in to actually work on those leadership skills. Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

[00:20:22] And, you know, some of this just can't be done over the phone or over Zoom, right? There has to, there's always a point at which people need to come together and spend some time together to not just learn, but to learn about each other and to have a good rapport and working relationship. I mean, that's, that's been my experience. And some of us take that for granted because we had it in our early careers.

[00:20:49] And, you know, some people have not ever been in an office. I've got an employee right now who she's never worked in an office. She's always worked remote. She's, you know, she's not even 30 yet. Right. So, she doesn't have that experience. So, there, you know, it's not clear what the gap might be and maybe there's none. We do, we do come together as a team. So, she's had an opportunity to, to be with us.

[00:21:14] But I think it's a, you know, it's an interesting, it'll be something interesting to look back at and to look at the, the data from the time when we were really almost 100% working remotely. And to see what's, what's changed and what's different. I think the biggest thing is instead of saying either or thinking, it's both and thinking. Yeah. So, it's not one or the other.

[00:21:40] I talked to an engineer for a large aerospace company who actually got moved in to owning succession planning and leadership development. And again, started his career at a certain point in time. But he said, sort of like going to college, that leadership development program and the years that you were in it, those became some of his best friends in life.

[00:22:03] And then as they moved around this very large company, they had that social network of trust based on how that leadership development program was executed. And whether virtual or in person or both, I think the important thing is how are we building relationships of trust and building our social networks in this new world of work? Yeah. Really good point.

[00:22:32] So, I know skills is, is still one of the hottest topics we have right now. And with that being the currency for career development and promotion, as well as workforce planning, right? That's, that's a huge challenge right now. What are we seeing? What's the, the good, the bad, and the ugly there, right?

[00:22:52] Like what, if I'm a, if I'm a leader who's trying to start focusing on a skills based project, what advice would you give me? So, I was going to jump in here first. Bob and I actually presented back at World at Work and our presentation was titled The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly of Broadbands and Competency Based Pay.

[00:23:18] But if we bring that to present day, I would start, I'll start with the ugly. The uglier, the challenge is most people just want really simple answers on what I need to do to develop and advance. And we've created super cool technologies and products that have been curated on huge skill taxonomies. Like everything is at our fingertips. Coursera has tagged 900 skills to its courses.

[00:23:45] LinkedIn has identified 40,000, perhaps allowing 50 on one's profile. But what I feel is missing is the human element. Skills and competencies come together to create high performance. And we still struggle as managers and leaders. How do we provide feedback on the critical few things? How do we provide work experiences structured around these areas?

[00:24:12] The other thing that's sort of ugly, I think, is people's nervous systems are tired of navigating too many virtual meetings and bytes of information. And they're really hungry for these in-person experiences, but they're too tired to attend. So, what I think the potential for good is, is really approaching this with some holistic design thinking. What are we going to do to bring focus?

[00:24:39] How are we going to empower people to focus on the right things? How are we advocating and sponsoring others who don't look like us? Who's getting the opportunities? And if we do formal learning, what's the balance of synchronous, asynchronous, and when should it be in person? So, those are some of the things I'm thinking about. Bob, how about you? Yeah, so, I certainly agree with all that.

[00:25:06] I think, you know, the other thing that comes to mind in terms of establishing career paths and career progression. You know, let's not forget today that what younger generations want is the ability to, in many ways, do that for themselves. They want to be able to, you know, create their path forward within an organization.

[00:25:34] And I think organizations that figure out and solve for how to do that, how to bring them into not a predetermined career path, but something that resonates with them, I think is important. And that goes, you know, that goes to how flexible your architecture is and how flexible your management is. I think, you know, you mentioned remote work and all of that.

[00:25:59] And I think, you know, the irony that I see at times is that, you know, many of the CEOs of organizations today who demand return to office are different generations. They're from a different generation trying to get yet another different generation to abide by something that in many ways is not, doesn't sync up with them. It's not something that they're attracted to.

[00:26:26] And so there's got to be some give, otherwise it becomes a mandate and people are against their will having to get in the car and do their 50 mile commute or 50 minute commute, whatever. And that's where the rub is. And so, but I think the whole remote thing, hybrid thing is, you know, it's sort of something that really interests me.

[00:26:48] And I spent a lot of time reading and looking for those research studies that prove a lot of the claims around increased productivity and collaboration and so forth. I haven't seen anything yet that's really compelling and very convincing, but I do know that a lion's share of the workforce, workforces and companies are really continue to embrace both hybrid and remote.

[00:27:15] So I think companies that don't mandate it will, you know, will, you know, will last longer. We'll keep their, their, their top talent, you know, rather than lose the people that they need like other companies might. Yeah. And I would add to that, that we're living through this experiment right now.

[00:27:35] For example, there's data that suggests early career professionals from a development perspective value being in the office with actual mentors. And if leadership is in the office, they'll have more visible sponsorship. I think when you have hybrid teams, things can get imbalanced and feedback skills can get broken when some people are in the room and some virtually.

[00:28:00] So I would say you can't underestimate how you need to invest in people's communication skills, their conflict management skills, how to ask for and give timely feedback and not just wait for it from a manager, but with peers. And there's enough written on psychological safety, but that just means everyone's voice is on the table and people don't feel whether they're online or in the room that it's not safe to speak up.

[00:28:28] I know, Bob, you've journeyed a lot around compensation and there are a lot of business and HR executives kicking the tires today on a skill project or they might call it a new job career architecture project in 2025. And to do that project well, you need comp people, you need talent people, you need technology.

[00:28:51] What would you advise from your leadership perspective to someone considering this type of project today? What's really critical? Yeah, so, you know, I spent a high percentage of my career many, many years in compensation.

[00:29:07] So I have over the years seen a variety of different career structures and I absolutely hands down believe that those career structures that are built to develop competencies, pay people competitively, et cetera, et cetera, are not rigid programs or architectures, but rather those that are, that have the greatest flexibility.

[00:29:35] You know, you and I have talked over the years that, you know, HR, you look at just the function of HR and how it's evolved over the years. HR many years ago had lots of power. They had a lot of authority, a lot of power and lots of rules. And at some point along my journey, that changed. And it was the business, I think, that pushed and forced that change to happen.

[00:30:01] And I think HR professionals who fought it are really no longer relevant. And those that understood the importance of partnering with business, not dictating to business and finding, working together as partners to really solve some of their issues were the most successful. So I think that was sort of the beginning of flexibility.

[00:30:23] And so I think architectures that are built today, anyone who wants to do that kind of work has to know that flexibility is king. And a flexible structure, in my view, is really critical for an organization to stay competitive, for them to attract top talent, to be able to evolve their workforce.

[00:30:45] My last role with University of Chicago Medicine, I can sit here and tell you that we never lost talent that we didn't want to lose. Never. We did what we needed to do to bring the best and brightest folks to our organization. And so we weren't constrained by rules and regulations and so forth. And so we found ways to solve for that.

[00:31:09] But employees, I think, especially younger generations, they want roles that offer diverse experiences. They want mobility. They want work-like balance, right? We all know that. They want flexible design that allows, again, for them to have input to their career paths. The traditional ladders that were set up years ago are really not necessarily attractive to people, you know, vertical.

[00:31:34] The younger generation, I think, wants the ability to move in different directions and build their career. And again, that was really the genesis of a lot of the work we did at Abbott. So I think, you know, flexibility for me is something that I learned, you know, midway through my career when things changed pretty dramatically. And I think it serves the organization well. It serves the leaders well.

[00:31:58] It serves the employees well in terms of it really puts the focus on doing what's right for both the organization and for the employee. Yeah. I think, Kim, you made a good point earlier about these structures that, you know, people don't want them to be predetermined. And, you know, I think about a lot of the younger generation coming into the workforce. They want to try a lot of different things, right? They're not necessarily coming in and starting out.

[00:32:27] I'm a junior accountant and I want to be a senior accountant. And then I want to be the head of accounting. Like, you know, they're looking at, wow, maybe I'd be very interested in doing something in HR or, you know, working in IT. Maybe I've got a technical interest of some sort or I want to try out marketing. So things are evolving, I think, a lot in that way.

[00:32:50] And people are seeing, to the point Bob made earlier about people having like these 30 and 40 year careers at the same place, people are seeing different opportunities to learn new things. And they're building their skill profile, right? So, you know, they're looking for ways to take advantage of and use those skills to do something different and something novel and something unique with them. Yeah.

[00:33:17] If I were to offer some closing advice across the topics of the employer perspective, the employee perspective, and the manager or leader. With employees, I would say never sit back and wait. And it's about creating the portfolio of experiences and technical knowledge and behaviors that make you more valuable in the organization.

[00:33:41] So you and I were on the road with technology products when they are very young. And then you work on your first M&A project or you negotiate some big vendor contracts. Those are experiences that make you valuable. From a manager leader perspective, you need to get really good at feedback. And the same principles always apply. Can you catch people doing things right? Can you provide constructive feedback?

[00:34:11] And as a leader, do you have courage to ask for feedback? In fact, we talk a lot about learning and development. That's where Bob and I started with the Avid story. And growth-minded leaders and employees are okay asking for feedback and open to constructive news and bad news.

[00:34:32] And then from an employer perspective, just don't think because you build the technology or the portal or you can all of a sudden see 10 people who you can staff on your product launch. Don't forget the human skills and the change management and education that will make that a tool that enables a healthy culture. Because people are still people.

[00:34:56] And sometimes we build these frameworks and technologies and we don't think about the human element. And you just can't forget about that. Yeah. Bob, any closing arguments? Or is there anything you would leave the audience with that might help them start to think about how they're going to solve for this? Yeah.

[00:35:19] So I think one of the things that organizations have begun to do but must do, it's a must do, is they need to really understand their workforce. They need to understand their workforce from a generational standpoint. You know, because that's going to sort of help dictate, you know, what you do to meet the needs of your workforce. It's the one size that fits all doesn't work anymore.

[00:35:42] And, you know, when I looked at our workforce of, you know, roughly 12,000 plus employees at the University of Chicago Medicine, you know, more than half, 52% of the population were millennials. And so it begs the question, what are you doing? What are you doing to meet the needs of your workforce? Doesn't mean you ignore the other generations, but it means, you know, are we offering the right things?

[00:36:08] Are we doing it in the right way that resonates with these folks that they embrace and they run to versus run away from? And so, you know, there's a lot out there that's written about the various generations and what they want. I think it's, you know, it's imperative that organizations don't go business as usual, that they really spend time to understand what's important to the people that they're hiring if they want them to be there.

[00:36:37] And the other thing that really, you know, is important for organizations to know is that doing this work, doing that work in terms of generations is a differentiator today for organizations. It makes, you know, organizations stand out when they develop their value proposition about what is it like to work here? And how do we acknowledge the various generations and what their needs and wants are?

[00:37:05] I think that's really, really important. And I think the people or rather the organizations that do it and do it well are going to be the leaders and the ones that are going to win, you know, at the end of the day. So, yeah, what I would add to that for leaders is, you know, look for skills that are outside the scope of what your staff might be expected to have based on the job that they're currently doing. Right.

[00:37:34] It's to some extent incumbent upon the leader to be looking for better ways to deploy those skills. And then for the employee and the individual, think about the skills that you have that, you know, may be outside the scope of your work today, but can apply to other things that you can do.

[00:37:56] I know there's an organization called Career Circle who helps underrepresented groups get opportunities within organizations. And a lot of that is using skills that they've acquired, doing things that would not be traditionally those things that would be on a resume that would get you into an interview. But they've got the same skills and they've acquired those skills and they can apply to, you know, to these jobs.

[00:38:24] So I think we're being asked to do that more. And I think the next generation is expecting us to look at, you know, all of their skills profile and not just the ones that they got doing the job that they're in right now. So it's going to be an interesting world. It continues to evolve. I'm excited about the future. What about you guys?

[00:38:48] I think, you know, what employees should remember as well, that the importance of developing their skill set sort of serves as a security for them, a protection for them. Because as they inevitably throughout their career one day will be laid off. I think, you know, there's data that would strongly indicate that those that have more skills who are more developed perhaps than others land jobs quicker.

[00:39:16] And so I think, you know, it behooves the employee to take it very seriously to develop those skills, whether they're, you know, specific skills for a particular job or, as you said, other things that are, you know, just parts of what they've experienced in life and have developed skills as a result. So, yeah, it's going to continue to be very interesting. That's for sure.

[00:39:42] Yeah, and I would just add one more thing is not only developing the skills, but managers and leaders and the organization need to get really good at how they sponsor, advocate and find talent.

[00:39:56] Because sometimes we find talent who looks just like us or has the same skill or the experience, but having the competency that I'm curious to bring together a team that doesn't know things that I know and having the skill to navigate and build team effectiveness in that situation becomes really important. Yeah. Well, thank you both for joining me today. This has been a fun conversation.

[00:40:22] I look forward to doing something like this again when we have another interesting topic like this. So thank you both. I also want to thank our producers, the Brand Method Media Group, Kelly Kelly and her team, our marketing team, Cindy and Summer, who make sure that you guys get these podcasts on a regular basis. And I want to thank you for tuning in. Be sure to join us next week for Stacey and Cliff while they spill the tea on HR tech.

[00:40:52] That's all the time we have for this episode of HR. We have a problem. If you enjoyed the episode, you can subscribe to it on your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review if you have a minute or drop us a line, schedule some time on the website. We really want to hear about the topics that you'd like us to focus on. We will be back in two weeks with another episode of HR. We have a problem. Thanks, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.