How to fix a dysfunctional manager - get to the root

[00:00:00] So we talk a lot about employee performance in HR. We talk less about what happens when the employee or the performance problem is actually the manager and that is what we're talking about today. Hi, I'm Andrea Adams. This is The HR Hub and today again on The HR Hub we have Debbie Pearme. She's founder of One Stop HR. Debbie's an HR consultant and ICF certified coach with over 25 years of experience in, importantly, leadership development

[00:00:30] employee engagement and workplace culture. Today we're going to talk about dysfunctional managers, how to spot them early and what we should actually do about it. And because I really don't think that the solution is a one day course. Hi, Debbie. How are you? I'm great. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Yes, me too. It's actually I was actually kind of talking about it to someone yesterday on Sunday. There you go. That's where I'm at.

[00:00:57] So help us. Channel less in HR. What are the earliest signs that a manager is creating dysfunction in their team? I've been doing leadership development for 25 years, as you know, training and coaching. And, you know, here's the thing. So often when something is not going right, I do have to say there's a bit of this knee jerk reaction that we right away kind of point the finger, blame,

[00:01:24] throw under the bus, whatever the employee or team is not doing. And, you know, one of my favorite questions when I coach leaders is just, you know, let's hold up the mirror for a moment. What are you unintentionally doing that might be creating this issue with your employee, with your team? It's a tough question. People don't like it when I ask the question.

[00:01:52] But I go back to, you know, some of those basics around performance management where we ask ourselves. What are the causes of poor performance? And when you brainstorm the list, very rarely is it actually an employee issue or problem. Right. So so what could also be going on?

[00:02:17] And I'm going to say, you know, the dysfunction I see rarely starts with some kind of dramatic behavior. It's usually small kind of inconsistencies that slowly over time are eroding things like trust or clarity or engagement for team members. So what are some of those things? Unclear priorities. Right. Shifting decisions.

[00:02:46] Sometimes leaders are the bottlenecks for decisions. People will say that expectations are inconsistent. What about even just people stop contributing in meetings? Right. Meetings are quiet. Maybe employees aren't as collaborative as you would like them or need them to be, which tells me there's some caution there, perhaps some trust issues going on.

[00:03:14] And what about even operational systems like rework and delays and more escalations? And I would also say there's like the physiological signs and symptoms that show something's going on. Like, for example, the team might seem more stressed or tired. I'm hearing a lot these days from people about frustration or anxiousness.

[00:03:43] So I think, you know, there's lots of communication issues. There could be micromanagement over control. Right. Lack of accountability. You're hearing all kinds of things that are indicators that people's needs aren't being met and something is missing.

[00:04:03] Don't employees, at least to some degree, need to adjust to the style of the manager rather than the manager adjusting to the style of, you know, maybe they've got seven different direct reports? I mean, that's hard. Yeah. Okay. So I think it's a much bigger thing. And again, it's the right question to ask. I think a lot of times we want to oversimplify things, right? Bad manager, bad employee.

[00:04:34] And I got to tell you in my 25 years, because I am a consultant and a leadership trainer and a coach, I get the opportunity of seeing things at all three levels. Right. Micro, sorry, micro and then middle and then very macro as a consultant. And I'm going to say that looking for patterns is really important because issues are usually systemic.

[00:05:02] So I look for things like patterns, consistency and environmental impact. And I would be looking at three layers when I see there's something going wrong here. Is it primarily the manager? Is it the employee or is it the environment and the systems? And it's usually a combination of all three. Right. So I would say it's not again about the blame and finger pointing.

[00:05:30] It's like, let's get really curious and and ask ourselves, is this like a capability issue? Is this a capacity issue? Is there something going on in the system that's making it hard for for leaders to be able to do a good job in leading? And very often I'm going to say that's also the case. Right.

[00:05:54] Organizations, for example, don't give training or don't have the tools or the resources or right. Don't allow for time for things like coaching and feedback conversations. Maybe managers aren't supported from HR when it comes to things like performance management issues, performance improvement things. So, again, I think we got to look at this in a more holistic way.

[00:06:24] Yeah. Okay. And now I want to stop from looking at it a holistic way for a moment. Once you've gone in and you, you know, like, I'd like the way you characterize those three areas. I wrote them down. Yeah. Capability, capacity and the system. I guess I want to ask two questions about that.

[00:06:46] One, how do you parse apart those three things, you know, and decide which one you're going to put emphasis on? And then the second question, which has part of that question, which actually has many parts itself is if it's capability, what do you do? If it's capacity, what do you do? If it's system, what do you do? Especially that last one. That's hard. That was a big. Yeah. Okay. So, here's the thing. Go where you will. Again, I think we're like wanting to assess dysfunction.

[00:07:15] And I do a lot of these like team effectiveness assessments. Right? So, we're trying to now pinpoint what is going on here. Yeah. And again, this isn't about finding a problem person. Um, that's easy. Right? And then we very quickly jump to trying to deal with that individual. So, looking at the manager, looking at the employee, looking at the system, the environment, and let's stop diagnosing narrowly.

[00:07:42] And then let's try to deal with and address more root cause issues. So, number one, right? This is where I'm like a huge fan of the employee engagement surveys, but also team effectiveness surveys. So, I'd be looking at, is this a one-off? Is this a one-person thing? Or are we seeing this across a team? Okay.

[00:08:05] Let's assess the system first, Andrea, because systems are what shape behavior more than people realize. Okay. How do we assess environment? Um, I would start with clarity. So, are expectations clear? Are priorities clear? Are goals realistic? Are decision rights defined?

[00:08:31] And then I would be, these are questions I'd be asking on engagement surveys. Workflow and operational design. So, are employees overloaded? Are there too many needings? Are people dealing with lots of interruptions or competing priorities? Are company processes clear and easy to follow and efficient? Are people stuck in a constant state of firefighting?

[00:09:01] Because there's this addiction to this urgency culture, which I'm seeing a lot more of. Right? Is the system cognitively overloaded? How's the change? Like, I'm, I, listen, there's a lot we need to be assessing at the system level. So, system issue indicators would be things like burnout. Right? So, what are our burnout levels? Um, how's collaboration across departments?

[00:09:31] Uh, what's the meeting culture like? Do we have excessive meetings? What's accountability like? So, do we know whether we've got accountability or is there things like blame and finger pointing and throwing people under the bus? Um, what's turnover like? You know, so I'd be looking at environment and just assessing, is it chaotic? Because even strong managers and employees will underperform if the environment in the system

[00:10:02] is dysfunctional. So, that's step one. Then you said, okay, what if it's the manager? Mm-hmm. So, again, how do we assess the manager? So, once these kind of system pressures are better understood, then what I would want to do is look for things like team patterns. So, manager issues will reveal themselves through, like, not just one person.

[00:10:27] So, again, engagement surveys should be really asking detailed questions around managers. Right? Like, does the team trust the manager? Does the manager communicate well? Are they open to ideas and opinions and concerns? Um, is the manager clear? Do employees feel psychologically safe? Is there accountability? Mm-hmm.

[00:10:55] Are people getting coaching to be successful? How does this manager, you know, regulate themselves under stress and pressure? Do people feel empowered or do they feel micromanaged? Mm-hmm. So, again, it's the quality of, like, the assessment that's going to help you uncover some of this stuff. Um, and then I'd be looking at assessing the employee.

[00:11:22] So, evaluating the individual employee. So, evaluating the individual employee. Let's do it fairly and respectfully and very specifically. Does this person have the skills? Are they coachable? Are they receptive to feedback? Um, are they meeting reasonable expectations? Are they contributing to any conflict on the team?

[00:11:48] So, I'd be really assessing, is this a capability issue or is this a motivation issue? Yeah. Uh, I find, like, I find when, when they get an external, like you or me involved, maybe you get involved sooner. But they have gone down the road really far already of, of, like, the narrative is clear.

[00:12:14] This employee is not performing and there is not, you know, in a lot of cases they're just like, we've got to get the problem resolved, get rid of the employee, and move on. Um, I mean, I am a bit shocked at how little organizations teach their managers on how to actually assess and diagnose performance well.

[00:12:40] So, you know, when I'm going into CEO groups and teaching things like coaching, I'll ask questions. How do you assess a person's performance level? Like, how are you even assessing if they're low, moderate, or high? Because coaching is only the approach to use for your moderate employees.

[00:13:01] And actually, you shouldn't be really using coaching as a tool for your lower level performers, because what they need is more training and feedback. And people look at me stunned. Like, no one's taught them this. And they've been doing, you know, management for 20 years. So it's about, you know, this isn't HR's job. This is us empowering our managers who are like boots on the ground to be able to diagnose and assess performance well.

[00:13:30] Right? So if one employee is struggling, then it could be an employee issue. But if several employees are struggling, then I think it's something's going on with the manager. And if multiple managers or teams are struggling, then it's likely a systemic issue. So, so for a moderate performer, coaching. A low performer, training. A high performer. Low performers don't just need training. They need training.

[00:14:00] They need frequent observation and they need detailed feedback. So they need very clear, specific feedback often. And without that, people learn bad habits or they just don't get the feedback early on. And so then they aren't able to elevate themselves to the level, like to become a moderate performer. And this is a huge problem in Canada.

[00:14:25] Like again, when I teach CEOs on this topic, do you know that 60% of Canadian businesses have employees stuck at the moderate performing level? 60%. That's the bulk of your employee group. 30% are in low performing categories and only 10% become high achievers.

[00:14:49] So my job is to help teach managers how to get their 60% up to a higher level. Like think of the ROI on that. It's huge. So we've talked a little bit about what happens if it's the employee.

[00:15:07] What happens if we, you know, we go through this assessment process, we assess systems, we assess employees, but the manager is playing a big role in whatever is being seen. What do we do? How are you setting your managers up for success? I think that's such an important question that every organization should be able to answer. And again, I'm dumbfounded.

[00:15:35] When I ask HR, for example, how are you setting new managers up for success here? How are you setting your middle managers up to get to a higher level? Like what kind of development do you provide? Right. And then, and then what, what kind of budget goes with that?

[00:15:57] And I mean, it's Andrea, like, maybe, maybe on the job, but maybe what they're doing. And this was the question I wanted to ask. It's there, did there, well, yes, there's on the job, but oh, but you know, and in maybe a somewhat advanced organization, we'll send them to the local college for a supervisory course for a day or two, maybe three.

[00:16:27] What's, what's the problem with that? I take a very customized approach to leadership development. Why? Because every organization's leadership needs are slightly different and they should be tailored to your business strategy. So let's just start there. What is, what are the goals of your organization? And then what skills do you need your leaders to have in order to help your organization meet those objectives?

[00:16:54] And then let's get them training on those skills. So again, I wish I would, I would be a very wealthy woman for the amount of times where I've just been said, here was the agenda of the supervisory training course that we sent Andrea to right off the shelf full day. And I look at, for example, the skills and competencies and I'm like, oh, well, you know, that's kind of an interesting start.

[00:17:25] It's like an appetizer to being a good manager or supervisor, but there's a lot of stuff that's missing. And then, you know, Andrea's manager and HR checks a box and says, oh yeah, no, we gave Andrea the training. I just, I don't quite understand. So yes, we promote a lot of people into people management roles who are technically competent. That doesn't mean they have the leadership capability.

[00:17:55] And let's start training people in like real leadership skills. So again, I go and speak to groups and I say, what are the leadership skills that someone needs in 2026 to lead well?

[00:18:11] And I can tell you right now, 25 years, the things I'm teaching today for leaders in some of the largest organizations in North America are not the same topics, Andrea, I taught 10 years ago or 20 years ago. And that's why there's a problem with these off the shelf generic send every supervisor to so-and-so course because it's kind of like a shot in the dark and like you're hoping to get some stuff.

[00:18:41] And then, then you wonder a year from now, why, why aren't they performing or why is this not working? And it's like, well, what kind of tools did you give them in their toolbox? And were they the right tools? And the answer is no. Yes, me too. Were they tools that that person even like I am a case study of this. I got sent to one of those courses.

[00:19:03] I have as an HR person and whatever, per couple of roles at one time or another was putting together those, those programs. So I've been. Well, just pause on the world we're in today. And I literally just presented on this last week. What I needed. What are leaders dealing with in 2026? 2026. Cognitive overload. AI disruption. Constant change. Emotional fatigue. Hybrid complexity. Workforce distrust.

[00:19:33] Speed without recovery. Okay. So just pause on that. What kind of skills should we then be providing in terms of our leadership development strategy for 2026? And again, when I asked that question, just think of how many people you work with. I work with as well. Who are like, oh, we don't have a budget for leadership development this year.

[00:19:56] Or we have a budget and we just send everyone to the XYZ course that's one day at such and such college. And you're like, where's the strategy in that? Doesn't make a ton of sense. Yes. So I don't, you know, I've worked for a lot of large training organizations delivering off the shelf programs. Yes, there's some value, but I'm way more interested in what are your goals and objectives?

[00:20:23] How, what do you need your leaders to be able to do to get there? And then let's give them some training. And then how do we know the training has stuck? Because training is that first level of learning. And then that doesn't guarantee people have skills. Like you and I have read a thousand books. That doesn't mean we're experts and can do all the things we've read. So the model today also pairs coaching with training.

[00:20:52] And I'm also surprised at just how many organizations are late to that party. They were just throwing people in training, crossing their fingers, hoping it sticks, hoping people come out and have the skills to execute. And it's like this approach isn't working, right? Training plus coaching is the most effective where they're working with someone where it's, you know, person by person. And it's okay. So Andrea, you've now had training on these topics.

[00:21:21] You go out, you do your job, and then you come back to a coach with here's the stuff that's not working. And help me fine tune my skills in execution of all the theory I just learned so that I can get better and these skills can get stronger. That's the model that works the most effective. Okay. I like, you know, don't have to pitch that to me.

[00:21:48] But what I have seen alternatively is they send them to the course and then they try and get that person's supervisor. So the manager's manager to follow up, to perform that role of the coach. Do you think that model, like, frankly, I haven't seen it work well, but what do you think? It doesn't work. No, it doesn't work. Well, because people don't do it. Like full stop, right?

[00:22:18] I mean, and again, I've seen so many iterations of this in my 25 years. Like, oh, you went to a course? Oh, what was the agenda? Okay, Debbie, what did you learn from that? Okay, great. But if I'm your manager and I've not gone through that same training, how can I then coach you on what you just learned in training? Most fail because it's just a lot of theory. There isn't a lot of behavior change.

[00:22:45] There is no reinforcement of learning. Right? So if an organization takes this combined training and coaching approach, which sounds like a great idea to me, honestly, I'm not even just saying that. Is this like, you know, those few day supervisory courses, they might be really quite cheap. Is this full expensive?

[00:23:11] It's a little bit what I say to folks when I ask them, like, what's your well-being strategy? How are you addressing workplace burnout and mental health? And then I'll have someone say to me, well, we have an EAP program. And I'm like, oh, that's great. And then I'll say, what's your usage rate? And most people come back, they say, I don't know. And then they'll come back to me a week later and they'll say 6%.

[00:23:36] We know, again, all the research, training and coaching is far more effective than just training. It bridges the gap between knowledge and real behavior change. So we want to build more than just knowledge. We want to help. Like, so again, go back to that. What's happening in companies? 30% are low performers. We give them training. 60% are moderate performers. They need coaching. We know this and we know this and we know this.

[00:24:06] Well, it's no different than your managers and leaders. So great. We're going to give them training, but they're not getting the ongoing coaching to develop skills. And so they're either going to be stuck as low level people managers, or if they're lucky to get up to this moderate level, they'll stay stuck there. So we have to look at, right, the process of like how people learn and grow and develop.

[00:24:33] And coaching is what allows for skill refinement, skill development. Right. Training is just knowledge transfer. So back to your question. Does it cost more?

[00:24:48] I don't think so, because what you're doing is more of an individualized, tailored approach to an organization rather than just continually sending people somewhere, paying for it and checking boxes and not necessarily having the impacts that you're hoping. Yeah, I guess it's probably mostly about like value in the end. All right, Debbie, we're getting to the end of this. Where can people find you and learn more about, well, learn more about you and what you do?

[00:25:17] One Stop HR and Debbie Lang, Pear Main on LinkedIn. But LinkedIn, right? I write about this stuff. You see I write weekly about all kind of leadership, employee engagement topics. My whole thing is let's improve leadership effectiveness. Let's decrease turnover. Let's increase employee engagement. You know, we just created a great program.

[00:25:44] It's called 12 Weeks Leadership Vitality Coaching Program. And it's a combined approach. We've got assessments in there. We've got training in there and one on one coaching. So if people are interested in learning more about that, please reach out. Well, thanks Debbie. That was great. It's you know, there are a few things that come up on the channel over and over. We've been doing this for five years and leadership development absolutely is one of them.

[00:26:13] For organizations to perform and coordinate the work and to coordinate the people and to, you know, get get the performance. We need good leaders and yet leadership development. It's not doing that well. Anyway, there's no more time to talk about it today. But Debbie and I did an episode on engagement, which you referred to in a link to that. It's right there. Thanks for watching out there. We'll see you next time.