Communicate Well - Even When You Feel Like a Fraud

[00:00:00] When you don't have confidence, how you show up shapes how others see you. But what if the path forward wasn't about making our self-doubt disappear, but learning how to communicate despite the lack of confidence? I'm Andrea Adams and today on the HR Hub, I'm talking with Andrea Wojnicki. She's an executive communication coach and personal branding expert with over 20 years of experience.

[00:00:27] Andrea holds a doctorate of business from Harvard Business School and she's the host of the Talk About Talk podcast. Hi Andrea, how are you? Hi Andrea, it is so nice to be here with a fellow Andrea. At least our names are spelled the same. Yes, they are. It's gonna be challenging. I did actually have trouble there. Andrea, Andrea, say Andrea.

[00:00:52] So, so far so good. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna talk about confidence. I just want to clear up one thing. Is a lack of confidence and imposter syndrome the same thing? And if they're not, how do you define them?

[00:01:07] Oh, great place to start. So imposter syndrome, I think is a specific manifestation of having a lack of confidence. In other words, it's like a, if you had like a big circle of what is a lack of confidence, imposter syndrome is kind of within it. It is the specific feeling. It's like you have the self-talk where you're telling yourself or your brain is telling you, you don't belong here, you're not adequate, they're gonna find out that you're an imposter, that kind of very specific self-talk.

[00:01:36] Whereas a lack of confidence, you may not have that specific narrative going through your mind, but you are feeling the fight, flight or freeze, the anxiety, the nervousness. So I would say imposter syndrome is a subset of a lack of confidence.

[00:01:54] Okay, that makes sense to me. I've heard so many people, like I was just at a conference, for example, and someone was talking to me that they felt this lack of confidence. And then other people are saying they feel like a total fraud. When someone's feeling like a fraud or imposter, and that's their only story, how are others going to see them in communication?

[00:02:22] So when I first started coaching people on basic communication skills, and I don't mean basic easy, I mean like the things that you would think about, right? Like listening, formal presentation skills, storytelling, leading important meetings, all of that stuff. I noticed that really what was happening was sure, where I'm helping them acquire the mindsets and the tactics and the frameworks to make them better communicators.

[00:02:51] But what was really happening was that their confidence was was being elevated. So when we don't feel confident, it's often because we aren't sure about what to say or how to communicate. And so communication and confidence are really intertwined. And to answer your question directly, when we don't feel confident, it matters for two reasons. It's very unpleasant for us.

[00:03:19] And other people, when they see either through your words or your tone or your body language or whatever it is, they see that you're not confident. They interpret it as you don't have credibility. And that's really important because when you don't have credibility, you can't accomplish whatever it is. You're trying to close the sale. You're trying to tell your boss that this is your recommendation. You're trying to get the job. Like whatever the context is, you're not going to be able to make an impact.

[00:03:47] You're not going to achieve your goals until you establish credibility. And if you want to establish credibility, you need to feel and be perceived as confident. So I want to get my job done. And so I read a book on confidence. And in the book, it said, the act of confidence comes first, the feeling of confidence comes later. And yet, and so I'm doing the thing.

[00:04:14] I'm trying to show up and get my thing so I can get, you know, my project approved or whatever it is and get my work done. But I'm not going to be successful if I'm not feeling confident. And it's like this doom spiral of I'm never going to be confident because I'm never going to get approved. And I'm never going to get approved if I'm not confident. Yeah. So I love the, I love your word, your term, the doom spiral. Yes.

[00:04:42] The people that come to me for coaching and who talk about this kind of experience, I always say to them, so first of all, I've got two really important messages that I want to share with you, maybe three. The first one is you have self-awareness, which is half the battle. Like if you're saying, I recognize that I'm thinking this and it's not good. It's like this meta level of cognitive awareness that you have about what's going on in your body and in your mind.

[00:05:10] And you're separating yourself from it, which only humans can do, right? And saying, this is what I'm experiencing. This isn't good. That's, so first of all, pat on the back to you, you have self-awareness. The next thing that I say is that if you feel like a fraud and Andrea, that that's the term that you used. And I, I also like that when you're thinking about what is an imposter syndrome, feeling like a fraud, very simply put. I say, congratulations.

[00:05:38] That means you're pushing yourself. The folks who are not pushing themselves are not experiencing imposter syndrome. You know, you're sitting on the couch with a bag of chips, hanging out, not really trying anything new. You're not experiencing imposter syndrome. Think about when you feel like a fraud. It's when you're trying something for the first time, when you're really pushing. Maybe it's not the first time, but you're pushing yourself. You're getting out there. You're trying to accomplish things. So know that.

[00:06:04] And then if you don't mind, I would love to share a little bit about the background on imposter syndrome because like, can I do that? So in 1978, two female social psychologists in the U.S. were studying successful female executives. And they wanted to understand what are the factors that contribute to these females who are very successful versus maybe their peers who were less successful.

[00:06:32] And they were looking for the things that we all would, you know, think maybe our hypothesis is maybe their mother was a great role model. Maybe they had a mentor who helped support them. Maybe they had a sponsor who pulled them up in the organization. Maybe it was because of their formal education that they had. Maybe they were all the oldest child, right? Like, so they were very open about like, what are the factors they're contributing to their success versus these other women who are less successful. And guess what?

[00:07:00] These women all had imposter syndrome. And this was a shocking theme to them because, you know, they use surveys and it's not like they surveyed because the term hadn't been invented yet. Right. But when they started interviewing them one on one, this theme kept coming up. You know, I might be considered a successful female executive, but when I walk into the room, I feel like a fraud or I'm an imposter or they would use this kind of language. So they came up with this term, imposter phenomenon.

[00:07:29] And I remind people, this is common amongst successful people. And since then, imposter phenomenon has morphed to be called imposter syndrome. It sounds like a sickness, right? And it's been researched. So men experience it. Women experience it. Successful people experience it. Even less successful people experience it. But almost by definition, if you are experiencing it, it's because you're putting yourself out there.

[00:07:54] So I always say, you know, I often will start my workshops on confidence by explaining what I just said here. You should be giving yourself a pat on the back if you feel that and then start thinking about what can I learn? And this is what you were alluding to, to help me feel it or maybe even fake it. We can get into, you know, some people don't like to fake it till you make it. And I totally get that. But like I said at the beginning, you can work on your communication skills.

[00:08:23] And there are mindsets and frameworks that you can use, even physical things. Like, you know, the obvious one is the slow deep breath. And there's all sorts of research about when you slowly inhale and you really elongate your exhale, your brain reads, oh, Andrea is not gasping for air. Everything must be okay. And then suddenly it is because your brain said, your brain read it as I'm not gasping for air. So everything's okay. And then it is.

[00:08:52] So these are some tactics or even physical things that you can do that can kind of trick your brain. So when personally, when I, you know, I'm going into a big workshop or I'm stepping out on stage and I feel that little shot of adrenaline. The first thing I do is, oh, good. I really do say this. I say, now I have that positive spark of energy and I know it's imposter syndrome. That's because I'm pushing myself.

[00:09:16] I'm going in this big, important, you know, space where I'm going to do this thing and I'm taking a risk. And then I do the, and I slow my exhale and then I step out. And there are all sorts of other things that I do if the anxiety reappears. But just doing those two things can help you a lot. And understanding imposter syndrome is not a bad thing. It means you're pushing yourself. Now go, right? It's like giving yourself a pep talk.

[00:09:46] And it's based on science. What about when you push yourself? And you're like, you know, you push yourself. You're going to do that thing. And then afterwards, it's like, that was a disaster. Like, now your imposter syndrome has been reinforced. Now it's not a story of I'm pushing myself.

[00:10:11] The internal dialogue could quickly become actually I pushed myself and I failed. I'm, uh, you could go any kind of terrible ways from there. Yeah. Early in my career, I did have this experience. Oh, yeah. I was, I was asked to speak at a conference. I am a very conscientious person. I prepared. I was very nervous. And I prepared like crazy. And I used to be a competitive figure skater. So I, I knew a little bit about managing my nerves, but I was like, you know, just like,

[00:10:41] just like a trained athlete. If I, if I train my, my figure skating program so that I know it like inside and out muscle memory kicks in. Same thing for when I'm giving a speech. When I step out on stage, I'm going to be so prepared. And I really prepared. I had my slides ready. I did have my speech written out on a sheet of paper, but I knew it by heart. Literally the minute my foot touched the stage, I could feel my body temperature spike. Like I started sweating.

[00:11:09] I started shaking and I was like, oh no, oh no. What am I going to say? What am I going to say? I ran over to the podium. I put my speech down. I put my head down and I read like this. I did not look up at the audience once. I grabbed my sheet of paper. I ran off stage and I've told the story a few times. My boss, Sandra came over and she said, are you okay? Like I was going to have to grab you and save you. I said, I'm not okay. I just need to go for a walk. And I went in the back, went into like the emergency exit, went in the stairwell and I

[00:11:39] sat down and I did not think, oh my God, I can never do that again. I did say, Andrea, shame on you. That was a CLM, CLM as in career limiting move. And if you do that again, your career is going to be limited. So you better learn, you know, I'm very ambitious. You better learn how to get in front of an audience. And my brain instantly went to, okay, what are you going to do? And I thought, I'm going to do two things.

[00:12:05] One, I'm going to volunteer every chance I get to get out on stage again, whether it's leading a meeting or giving a speech, because practice really does make perfect. And that was a message that I told myself like 25 years ago. Okay. And I know that it's true. And the other thing that I said to myself was, I know there are tips and tricks. If you want to call them hacks, I don't really like to think of them as hacks or tricks,

[00:12:30] but there are, there are mindsets and there are frameworks that, you know, Andrea, as an athlete, as a former athlete that can help you manage your nerves. And so let's like, let's double down on those. And I actually started a list and now I'm constantly talking to people about what, what do you do? What do you do? I'm reading the research. I'm experiencing this myself. So I'm happy to share what, what some of those things are.

[00:12:54] Um, so the answer to your question though, Andrea, in terms of what do you do when you go out there and you do fail? I, I mean, you could say I'm never doing that again, or you could say, what did I learn? What am I going to do better next time? How am I going to acquire this skill? It's really up to you. That's some tough love. Like it's true. It's so true. Also some tough love.

[00:13:22] Also I'm thinking about, you know, my most recent failure along those lines. And, uh, I know that I'm going to say yes the next time. I don't know. Good for you. I don't know what I'm going to do different the next time. Exactly. Um, but when, you know, when I think about the progress I've made, even in just the life

[00:13:50] of this YouTube channel, uh, and I bet that anybody else, if you look back five years, like have you not made progress? That for me is actually quite reassuring. Let's go to those tips though. Okay. If we can't make the sensation and the feeling of our lack of confidence go away, like how do we change the dialogue in our head? I think you've already given some tips, but maybe elaborate.

[00:14:20] I'd love to share some, some tips. So I'll tell you there, there are actually, I was going to say an infinite, there are probably hundreds of different things that you could do, but let me share with you some things that have worked for me that I've read some of the research on and that have worked for some of my clients. So we've talked about already, we've talked about kind of understanding what imposter syndrome really is. So you could tell yourself actually that little, so I feel it right here first, kind of like in my chest, it's like this hot, uh, oh feeling.

[00:14:49] And, and so telling yourself, oh, there's the imposter syndrome. Good job. Be conscious and self-aware of your self-talk. So when I stepped out on stage and I had that epic failure, my thought was, uh-oh, right? As opposed to now when I walk out on stage and I feel the same feeling, the same physical

[00:15:16] feeling, the fight, flight, or freeze feeling, I say, ah, there it is. Imposter syndrome. And then I think, and this is true based on science and I have, I've coached rooms full of, um, leaders in medicine and I've said, is this true? And they're like, yes, it is. The only difference between anxiety and enthusiasm in terms of physically what you're feeling is what you call it.

[00:15:44] So when I feel that shot of adrenaline, I think, okay, I have imposter syndrome. That means I'm pushing myself. That means I'm trying to accomplish something. That's awesome. And then I think this is going to be the positive spark of energy that's going to help me shine on stage. Otherwise I'm boring. So I'm not anxious. I'm excited. This, this helps me. What do you think about that one? Well, as you were talking, I'm like, what is the difference between, uh, being anxious and being excited?

[00:16:13] I think it's the same thing with a touch of worry added to the, the, the, the anxious part. Right. Yeah. But like, if I'm going to say, I'm excited about going to Mexico versus I'm going to get up on stage and give a speech. Okay. Yeah. I'm not worried. There's no worry. I love it. I love it. You're making it real. Yeah. There's worry when I'm getting on stage. Yeah. So one of the, one of the kind of, um, visualizations that I encourage people to think about is, you

[00:16:41] know, you go to a conference, maybe you go to an HR conference, right? And they have a, they have a panel and there's three or four folks on stage. And inevitably one of them is kind of like, they have got no energy. They're just like, they know everything. They're really not pumped. And the other ones are all like really cynical. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that person is not feeling the imposter syndrome or the anxiety. And it's like, I want to give them like a, like a little shake, right?

[00:17:10] Like you're come on. And the other ones probably have that feeling and they're channeling it into this excitement. They might not call it excitement, but their, their energy is showing up as like positive. I call it the positive spark of energy on stage. So nowadays when I go and speak, people say, you know, I love your content, but the way you deliver it, Andrea, you're so enthusiastic and very engaging. And I'm like, well, part of it is because I really love what I teach people.

[00:17:39] Cause I see how it transforms lives. But also I was a little nervous and, and I've, I've learned to kind of cultivate that anxiety into excitement and, and, you know, showing up as enthusiastic for the topic. So, and, and as humans, we can do that. So that's a big one for me. I've got it. I've got another one that's related to self-talk. Okay. So I'm a big, cause then I want to get into the externals.

[00:18:07] Like, okay, so we'll talk about the self-talk because I know like it would be so much easier if we just felt better. Yeah. We felt like we belonged in that room or on that stage or whatever. It would be so much easier, but anyway, we'll get there. What's that third tip? The other tip that I was going to share, there's, there's a couple, but the other one that I was going to share is just the power of a mantra. So when I, when I was applying to Harvard business school, I had to take the GMAT test.

[00:18:35] I'd already taken it before, but the, whatever, I had to take it again. And I started studying. And even when I was studying, I was really nervous because I was just picturing myself in the room, taking the exam with the timer on and it's so much at stake and ah, right? Like just thinking about it. Right. And so I created this mantra. I was like, Andrea, come on, you're smart. You're prepared. You're literally practicing right now. You're going to knock it out of the park. Andrea, you're smart. Andrea, you're prepared. Andrea, you got this.

[00:19:03] I kept saying that over and over again. And then when I went into the test, Andrea, you're smart. Andrea, you're prepared. And so the power of a mantra is that it focuses your brain. You feel nervous. Take a deep breath. Remind yourself imposter syndrome is a good thing. I feel excitement, not anxiety. And then, and then if I still feel nervous, I say, Andrea, you got this. Andrea, you got this. And it works. I did great on my GMAT. It helps me.

[00:19:32] And since I had that experience and I've done some of the reading on mantras, it helps you focus your brain. There's this extra insight that I want to share with the listeners that is such a fantastic insight. Talk to yourself in second person. So talk to yourself using your name and you. Andrea, you got this.

[00:19:59] So you would say, Andrea, you know, you know, you know, you know what you're doing here. You know, you're going to knock this out of the park. And the research shows that when we talk to ourself in second person, our brain interprets it as somebody else is giving us a pep talk. And we believe that other person more than we believe ourselves. So instead of saying, I'm going to do great. I rock. Say, Andrea, you're going to do great. You rock.

[00:20:25] I like to think there's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't say that. You say you. I know. I know. Because the energy level just tanks. Yeah. So it's called socially distanced self-talk. It's like somebody else. You're imagining that somebody else is talking to you. What would they say? They would say, Andrea, you got this. You've been doing this for five years.

[00:20:55] It keeps getting better. You're taking it to the next level. You know you got what it takes. Right? Yeah. Okay. Now I want to talk about the externals. So we've talked a little. We've talked about some tips about how to manage our self-talk. Yeah. Now, how can we manage the externals of feeling terrible about this thing we're about to do, but we're going to like fake it.

[00:21:22] We're going to do something about, you know, our body language, our tone, whatever. I don't know what it is. You're going to tell me. How can we change the way we appear? My number one piece of advice for how we appear when we are suffering from a lack of confidence or from imposter syndrome is to use expansive posture. So here's the insight.

[00:21:52] Confident people take up space. Okay. Okay. That makes so much sense because when I'm feeling not confident, I'm like this. Yeah. And I'm quiet. And I'm looking at the floor or I go to the bathroom. Like, avoid the place altogether. Yeah. Get yourself out of there. I love that. Yeah.

[00:22:19] So confident people take space. So, so how does this work? Say you're going out on stage, you're about to deliver a speech, or maybe you're leading a meeting and you're up at the front of the room. Within the first, I would say five to 10 seconds, you want to make sure that you've got your head up, your shoulders back, you're not cowering, you're taking up space and you want to show your palms.

[00:22:45] So research shows that when we show our palms to people, they trust us and they like us better. Why? Because our primitive brains are wired to trust people when we can see that they're not hiding a rock, a spear, a knife, a gun, something that they're going to, a weapon that they're going to use to hurt us. So when you show your palms and I'm not talking about doing jazz hands, right? But when you go out on stage, it's like, hello, everyone. So nice to meet you. I'm glad, I'm glad you're here. Let's get into this, right?

[00:23:15] That's all it is. Virtually or in person, you want to show that you're expansive and you want to face the people, right? This is all part of posture and your hands. I actually have a three point body language scan. This is, this is like one of the, what I would say, basic or foundational communication skills. A lot of people, when they're standing out up on stage in particular, but even anytime, if you're feeling either anxious or kind of disengaged or a lack of energy and you start

[00:23:42] to be really kind of self-conscious about your body language. And I know a lot of people when they're on stage, they're like, I don't know what to do with my hands. Where do I look? It's like my whole body all of a sudden becomes like, what do I do? And I say, it is overwhelming to think like fix your body language. What does that mean? Right? Like, what do I do with my little finger? What do I do with my ear? What do I like? Ah! And hands are a big one. So I say, just think three point body language scan. Posture. What am I doing with my posture? Be big, be expansive.

[00:24:12] If you're sitting like you and I are right now in a virtual meeting and you feel this nervous anxiety or even like you're disengaged, just think number one, posture. Okay. Are my feet flat on the ground? Am I, I've got 90 degrees to my, to my shins, to my quads, to my torso. I'm taking up space. So you think posture. Second thing you think is hands. So what am I doing with my hands right now? If you're the kind of person who speaks not enough with your hands, put your hands up on

[00:24:41] the table and then you'll be more likely to, you know, raise your hand and say whatever. Like there are three things. And the first thing is this, right? So you want to reinforce your words with your, with your hand gestures. People will also like you and trust you more if your hand gestures reinforce your words, because that's like consistency and we like consistency. We trust consistency. So it's posture, hands. And the third thing is eyes. I coach a lot of even impressive senior leaders.

[00:25:11] They will have their head up and it might look to the people in the very back of the room as if they're looking at them. But they're actually looking straight down. They're not looking at anyone. They're looking around like this. You want to look people in the eye. And some people have asked me this. Should I have one person on one side of the room and one person on the other side of the room that I'm looking at? And I say, I mean, if that works for you, that's great. But you want to make sure you're spending a good amount of your time looking to the right, looking to the left, looking to the back of the room, looking to the people that are

[00:25:40] in the front row, whatever the room setup is. And they feel like you're talking to them. And if it's virtual, I get this question all the time. Do I have to look at the camera all the time? So I'm looking at the camera right now, right? And I say, when you're making your most important points, yes, you need to look at the camera. But otherwise, it's like I'm looking down at you right now, Andrea. Yeah. It's a great idea to look around because you want to see other people's facial expression.

[00:26:07] You want to see their body language so you can understand whether what you're saying or what other people are saying is landing with them. So I just taught you this three-point body language scan, posture, hands, and eyes. This is an example of a basic communication skill that will boost your confidence. Because when you get on stage and you feel nervous, you'll be like, okay, three-point body language scan. What do I need to do? You're distracting yourself from the anxiety and you're doing something that's going to

[00:26:37] make you feel and be perceived as more confident. This is gold. So it ends up being a basic communication skill that is also something you can use to boost your confidence in the moment. So clearly there's things we can do to quote unquote fake it. I think people object to this idea of faking it because they want to be authentic. Yeah.

[00:27:03] And pretending you're more confident than you are feels like it's not authentic. It's inauthentic. Yeah. So we call it the A word, authentic. I get it. Um, and I, I am, yeah, the A word. Why do you call it the A word? Well, because it's, it's like authenticity. Like, oh, I've, I've heard enough about it. Right.

[00:27:32] Or like we all have to, we know what it is. It seems like it's a bit of a buzzword. It's jargony. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like the A word. Right. Um, that all said, we don't want to be present ourselves inconsistent with our true identity. We don't want to misrepresent ourselves or our thoughts even.

[00:27:54] And if we feel, but, but so like, what do you mean by, and I don't mean you personally, but I would ask someone, I would challenge anyone who's watching or listening to, to ask themselves, like, are you, are you saying that you should be getting up on stage and telling everyone? Gosh, I'm really nervous. I mean, you could, depending on the context, but I'm, I'm going to suggest that if your boss and your boss's boss are in the audience and they're, you know, your name is coming up for promotion. You don't want to start with an apology about how nervous you feel. You want to start by sharing what you really know.

[00:28:24] So instead, uh, this is what I say about the authenticity part when you're on stage, instead of worrying about faking it, I would focus really hard on what your unique strengths are. This is not arrogant. This is really focused on being really focused on your unique strengths. So this is another thing that I do. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? It's owning it. Own it. Stop.

[00:28:53] Like, we're so good at pulling ourselves down and, you know, criticizing, but like Jeepers, we also need to own what we, you know, what we're good at. Yes. Yes. And I love how you said it. Own it. Own. Not everything. It's not, I'm awesome. I can do anything. Right. So remember even the mantra that I was like, Andrea, you're smart. Andrea, you're prepared. You're literally practicing this stupid test that you have to write right now while you're thinking about your mantra.

[00:29:24] Right. So I, I was being very specific. I wasn't saying you can do anything. So focusing on your true, I'm going to say it, authentic, unique strengths. And by the way, there is a ton of research in social psychology that proves that when you get really clear on your unique strengths, they call it self-concept clarity. You're really clear on your unique identity.

[00:29:53] Your self-esteem will grow. So, so the line that I, that I read is self-concept clarity drives self-esteem. And that is basically social psychology talk for getting clear on your unique strengths is going to make you more confident. Period. That is a wonderful way to end it. I think we're well like past what I was hoping, but oh my God, so fun.

[00:30:24] Where can someone find you if what you have been saying resonates and I can't see how it wouldn't. And, um, if they want to explore these ideas around confidence and imposter syndrome, what do you suggest they read or look at on the internet? So you can find me on my website. So my company is called Talk About Talk and the website is talkabouttalk.com. Okay. Uh, you can also find me on LinkedIn. It's Andrea Watchnicki.

[00:30:53] I'm on LinkedIn almost every day. I actually love LinkedIn. So one thing that I would suggest people try that is really fun. Uh, in fact, it's so fun that I, that I made it into a quiz on my website. So if you're thinking about like, what are my unique strengths? Technically you probably you're in terms of the industry, you work in HR or what, and whatever your industry is where you do HR, you know what those strengths are.

[00:31:18] But like in terms of your leadership style and how you interact with people on the Talk About Talk website, I've created, uh, an archetypes quiz where it'll tell you which one of 12 different professional identity archetypes is you. And then that will help you identify what your unique strengths are. And this can become part of your mantra. It can be part of your self-talk and how you, even how you introduce yourself.

[00:31:42] So, um, I would suggest if you're, if this is, if this stuff is intriguing you, take the archetypes quiz. And when you see the, the answer that you get in terms of what your primary archetype is, see if that doesn't help boost. And this, this will be a great test of, is it true that self-concept clarity drives self-esteem? When, when I read about my unique archetype, do I feel more confident? I'm going to guess the answer is yes. Okay.

[00:32:10] I will put all links to all that in the show notes. Well, thanks, Andrea. That was so great. Uh, the part I'm thinking about is this idea of when we're feeling, um, we're feel, we're lacking confidence in, and we're going into a meeting, we're making a presentation.

[00:32:29] I am going to take up space the next time that happens to me, because, you know, seriously, imposter syndrome is something that I have struggled with for a long time and, you know, and still do. So yeah, like all of this is really relevant. Uh, I did an episode quite a while back, but it was on executive presence and it's related. Um, there's a link beside me or in my list of episodes. Thanks for watching out there and we'll see you next time.