Ep 85: The Real Cost of Chasing Perfection (with Michelle Molitor)

[00:00:02] Ever feel like different generations just don't get each other? Certified coach, licensed therapist, and speaker, Tess Brigham, tackles the generational challenges shaping our personal and professional lives on The Gen Mess with Tess. Hello everyone and welcome to The Gen Mess with Tess, where we're not just fixing the mess, we're figuring out how to live in it. I'm your host, Tess Brigham, so let's start making sense of the mess together.

[00:00:28] So my guest today is Michelle Molitor. She is a trusted partner for accomplished women navigating pivotal moments in their life and leadership, whether that's stepping into a new role, working through a difficult relationship transition, or facing a high-stakes business shift. She combines trauma-informed coaching with nervous system reset work, and her neuroscience-based restore method helps women release the subconscious patterns driving fear, over-functioning, people-pleasing, and self-doubt.

[00:00:56] The result is calm, grounded confidence and freedom from constant self-imposed pressure. Michelle is also a sought-after keynote speaker on perfectionism and emotional well-being in high-performing environments, and the co-author of the award-winning book, I Am Perfectly Flossom, How Embracing Imperfection Makes Us Better. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks, Tess, for having me. It's great to be here with you. Always fun to chat.

[00:01:21] Yeah. So tell me a little bit about your own origin story, because what I'm so interested in is how you have studied so many different things, and what I see when I look at you, I see all of these things that you've been doing, and then they've all been whittled down to where you are now. So I would love to get that story.

[00:01:45] Yes, yes. No, I appreciate that. So I had a 10-year career as a graphic designer and creative director in web development. It's what brought me from Atlanta to California at the height of the original .com boom in 2000. And it was a very exciting time on a lot of levels, and I was building out a team for a hot .com startup that was supposed to IPO the week I started. Oh, gosh.

[00:02:15] It crashed. Like, yay, I have a golden ticket that's worth nothing. Yay. Yes, yes. So that was its own roller coaster ride, but we kept going, and I kept building out my team and making strategic hires. And back then, building websites, large websites required a huge team, right? Now you can do it in a push of a button, which still blows my mind. I don't quite know how to wrap my head around that.

[00:02:44] But, yeah, I hired two individuals to be art directors on my team, one in information architecture, the other a hotshot designer from a faraway place. And they very quickly made it very clear that they didn't like working for me or with me, whether I was a woman or otherwise.

[00:03:09] They were very convinced that they knew a lot more than I did and told me as much in front of my face, in front of clients, in front of my team. And it chipped away at my self-confidence and my self-esteem and ultimately led to me getting fired. And it was devastating.

[00:03:37] It was like having the rug pulled out from under my feet. I was a deer in the headlights of, holy crap, now what? And it just destabilized my whole world. I had just, you know, I'd only been out here 10 months or something. And so I was like, what do I do?

[00:04:04] And my uncle, who my aunt and uncle live out here in the Bay Area, my uncle's like, there's this new thing called career coaching. Okay, sure. Where do I find one of those? And I found my first coach online. And I was like, oh, okay. And one of the very first sessions, one of the things he asked me was, what are your core values? I was like, wow, that's a great question. Nobody just ever asked me that.

[00:04:34] And I've never thought to ask myself that. And then upon reflection, I realized that while creativity is a core value of mine, building million-dollar websites wasn't helping people, being of service in a more one-to-one way was. And I realized that the corporate world wasn't for me.

[00:04:59] I don't have thick enough skin for that level of corporate politics. And so I realized that coaching was for me, that that was actually my true calling. And so I pivoted. I got trained and certified and started my own company, Nectar Consulting, in 2001. Wow. So I've been at this now for 25 years, being a learning junkie all along the way,

[00:05:30] collecting nuts of all sorts of different types of theories and tools and techniques along the way so that I can be of greatest service to my clients. And yeah, it's been an interesting rollercoaster ride in and of itself. Being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart, as you know. Oh, yeah. And, but yeah, I wouldn't trade it.

[00:05:56] So when people come to see you, what is the pattern that you hear most often? The pattern that I hear most often is, I've arrived at this place, I've accomplished lots of things, but yet there's a missing. I'm unhappy, I'm anxious, I'm on the verge of burnout even. I don't know how to get off the hamster wear.

[00:06:26] Something has to change, but I don't know what, and I don't know how to get from point A to point B. Mm-hmm. Or it might sound like for entrepreneurs, I keep hitting the ceiling. I want to get to this next level in my business, but I have this invisible ceiling I keep hitting, and I don't know what it is or how to move it out of the way. And it's, you know, only adding to the anxiety, the fear, the self-doubt, the imposter syndrome. Who am I? Do I know enough?

[00:06:55] Am I worthy? Et cetera. So those negative thought loops are the thread that I see through most of my clients. How that manifests for them individually looks different. Sometimes it's workaholism. Sometimes it's physical manifestations, IBS, chronic migraines, back pain.

[00:07:19] Um, but underneath those is the core beliefs that they hold about themselves that are fostering the environment that those things are coming into play. So the, one of the things that you talk a lot about, I was looking through your website and is this concept of over-functioning, which is, you know, a family systems,

[00:07:47] Murray Bowen, over-functioning, under-functioning. And I think it's so interesting that what we're seeing now is, and you can tell me I'm wrong, but I feel like for the first time in our culture, we're finally, finally addressing over-functioning. Do you know what I mean? It's like, we've called it people-pleasing, we've called things other ways, but this over-functioning thing that we're, that, that, I mean, how would you describe over-functioning? Absolutely.

[00:08:15] I completely agree with you because over-functioning shows up as, as people-pleasing, caretaking, um, over-giving, um, fawning, yes, saying yes when you really want to say no. Um, and all of that creates a, uh, an empathy tax, right? Especially for women, right? The, the caretaking that is innate in our nature, in our genetics.

[00:08:45] We, we take care of everyone else and then we forget to take care of ourselves. And it's no wonder that we're burnt out, fried, overwhelmed, and anxious. Because we've forgotten ourselves in the process. And then they're like, oh, now I'm angry or resentful or, or I have illnesses that are keeping me from doing the things that I actually want to be doing, but yet they keep over-giving and over-performing

[00:09:14] to take care of everybody else and keep shoving themselves and their needs to the side, which only continues to make things worse. Yeah. And I think it's, it's, it's hard because at the root, what I see is it's this over-functioning, but just as you said, it comes out in all these different ways, all these different ways that we manifest it. And I think what's so hard for women especially is that our society really rewards that caretaking. There's such, we get something from it.

[00:09:43] And that's why it's been so hard to let it go is you get something from it and there is something about, um, being, it might be a generational thing and I do want to get into the generations, but just this, at the end of the day, as much as I know I need to set boundaries, I need to do all these things, which I do and respect my time and respect my energy, there still is this part of me that wants to be accommodating,

[00:10:11] that wants to be quote unquote, you know, um, nice, wants to not rock the boat, not, and, and those are the pieces that I think it's, and that is over-functioning in its own way, you know, and, and I think that that's the part that people don't quite understand as you look at someone's life and you think, well, over-functioning, I mean, they're just living their life. It's like, no, not really, because they are overwhelmed thinking about everybody else or even just managing people's feelings in the room.

[00:10:39] Yes, that is, and that's a huge, that is a huge issue, managing other people's emotions in the room, right? And I would, I would assert that it is hardwired in our, our DNA as women, right? We, you know, we are wired to live in community, to caretake and to, uh, look out for each other

[00:11:08] because otherwise we don't survive, right? It's, that's basic survival mechanism, but now it's layered in with so many other responsibilities. It was nice when we can all sit around in a village, you know, and basket weave and, you know, make stew, but now we have a lot more things to do than basket weaving. Yeah. And, um, you know,

[00:11:36] there's a thousand things that parents have to do to take care of the kids and help them navigate through the world. Mm-hmm. In addition to having careers and, you know, all the things. Yeah. And, and so it's easy to get lost in that fray and that often leads to, um, what I like to call identity drift, where, um, there's this gradual disconnection

[00:12:04] from our authentic self caused by years of externally set expectations, which then shows up as perfectionism and over-functioning and people-pleasing and just ignoring our own inner wisdom. When your intuition is screaming, no, don't take on another thing. Mm-hmm. But that people-pleasing, um, wiring is really strong. Oh, okay, sure.

[00:12:33] I'll, I'll do that. I'll volunteer for that. I'll help out. And then you fall into bed exhausted at the end of the day and you're like, why does my life feel so meaningless? Well, yeah, I've said this many times. It's, it's this comfortably uncomfortable, right? We get comfortably, we're uncomfortable in our lives and what's going on and where we're going, but the comfort of the dysfunction is so, so the inroads are so, right?

[00:13:03] And the wiring in our brains are, it's so the grooves are really in there that it is hard. And it's hard for people, you know, cause I, my personal thing when I work with clients is I always say that, you know, we can talk about theory, we can talk about, you know, how to shift your mindset, we can talk about all these things, but at the end of the day, unless you start doing things differently, like I can give you the recommendations of what to do, but unless you start and actually do it differently, nothing in your life is going to change. Absolutely. And I think that's the part

[00:13:31] that people don't understand how hard it is to change these inroads that you've made. Yes. But once you do it, once you start, it's actually not as overwhelming as you think it'll be. Yeah. But, um, but it is a, I'm constantly amazed by how deep some of my own things are, right? And didn't even realize how deep they were. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know,

[00:14:02] I've, I've been a learning junkie for a really long time and I've been studying personal development for 25, 30 years. Um, and, you know, I help people rewire their brains and help them get back into their bodies and reconnect their head and their heart. And, and just recently in doing my own, you know, continual work, I was like, oh, isn't that interesting?

[00:14:32] I've, I've been doing more of this from my head than not. Like, oh, isn't that fascinating? And just recognizing some of the, the, the challenges in my life and the grief in my life that I hadn't addressed. Like, I hadn't really, really addressed it. And I was like, oh, I guess it's time to pull that out of the closet and shine some light on it and give it some love. So, it's,

[00:15:01] while it's challenging, it is so rewarding to like, oh, okay, I see you. I see this piece of me, this pain, this suffering, this challenge. And I, and embracing it in love versus coding it in shame or just ignoring it. Whatever, whatever it was, right? Everybody's version is different. But when we're brave enough and courageous enough

[00:15:30] to take those pieces out of the closet of our inner soul and go, oh, okay, when I actually look at you, you're not nearly as scary as I imagined you to be. And that's the beautiful part of the healing process. So, you mix executive coaching, hypnotherapy, and neuroscience. So, can you describe how those three things work together? Yes, yes, absolutely. Um,

[00:16:00] I love studying the brain and how it works. I can geek out on it all day long. And, and so what I've found is that coaching works at a conscious level, right? We're operating from our prefrontal cortex for coaching, um, but our emotions live back here in a nonverbal place in our brain. And so hypnotherapy allows me to work at a subconscious level with folks that bypasses the prefrontal cortex and gets back here

[00:16:30] to the midbrain to where we can access those emotional parts without the judging and the editing that can go on from a conscious place. and, and from those hypnotherapy sessions, um, I create a customized recording that is a, essentially a, an intuitive download of the words, the thoughts, the phrases that that particular client needs to help them

[00:16:59] start rewiring their mindset but also their behaviors. And they listen to that every night as they go to sleep. It's very relaxing. Very soothing hypnotherapy voice. And as they listen to it, their subconscious mind allows, like, think of it like a cascade of rain over your mind down into your long-term memory to create these, start building these new neural

[00:17:29] pathways in your brain that, I believe in myself, I love myself, I can do this, whatever the words are that they need to hear based on their situation. And the repetition of that, just like listening to songs on the radio, right, you know the words from 30 years ago, um, it, that becomes their new reality because it, it helps disconnect the old synaptic connections of, I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy, I'm not deserving, I'm not lovable,

[00:17:58] et cetera, to, I am worthy, I am deserving, I am lovable, I am enough. And that becomes the new operating system for how you show up every day and how you move through the world. So, it's an interesting process and then I'm typically working with folks over 6 to 12 months and there's somatic work involved, like how do we get them, not just in their head, but back down

[00:18:28] into their body so they can feel what they need to feel and not stuff it and let it go, change their mind about it. We're using the breath because your breath is your most powerful tool that you have to help you release some of that old stuff, the emotional residue that's caught in your nervous system, right? So, this combination of things over time that allows people to reset

[00:18:58] and restore their thinking, their nervous system, and then recalibrate for the new version of themselves that they want to be. So, I want to pivot and talk about the generations because I'm very curious about what you've seen. Just, I mean, you've been doing this for 25 years, so I'm sure you've seen, much like I have, where you get one, you know, young people start coming in and you're like, oh, these are these millennials and then now we have this new generation, Gen Z.

[00:19:27] I'm very curious about what your take is and what you see in your own work with the generations. Yeah, well, they each have their own perspectives. Oh, yeah. Right? The older generations, this is the way you have to be. We have to overperform, we have to overfunction, we have to prove ourselves because that's just the way it is. These younger

[00:19:57] generations, they're like, no, I don't buy into that. If I don't feel valued in the workplace, I'm going to say, thank you very much, I'm going to go find another job. So it's just a very, very different mindset and how they approach their careers and then that impacts how they show up for themselves and

[00:20:27] then how they're showing up in their lives. So do you see this, I'm curious about the overfunctioning and the perfectionism and all of that, like how that, so how does all of that manifest? I think the perfectionism and the overfunctioning still shows up, I think the root causes are probably different.

[00:20:58] I had one young woman I worked with who was dealing with severe IBS, chronic IBS, inflammatory bowel syndrome, to the point where she was afraid to go too far from her home. She was afraid her body wouldn't serve her. And in the work, what we found was the root causes of it was

[00:21:27] her dad being her basketball coach in high school. And he was demanding perfection from her. And she embodied that and became this hyper perfectionist and people pleaser and over giver and over functioning to the detriment of her body. And once we connected those dots and realized what she

[00:21:56] had been doing and we shifted her thinking, her physiology changed and her body healed. Really? Really short period of time. Wow. It was really astounding and she and she's given me full permission to share these stories. She actually came back to me a few years later after she'd had her first child with severe postpartum depression. And we went

[00:22:26] through similar steps and similar processes and we released that as well. And so she wrote me this beautiful Google review. She said, Michelle saved my life twice. And so you know it it's a different set of triggers like how those got into place I think is different perhaps for younger

[00:22:56] generations because of how parenting styles have changed. I was a latchkey kid. My parents were like hey see you later I'll see you at dinner time. They literally we had this big giant ooga horn and my mom would stand on the front porch at six o'clock and honk the horn and wherever we were in the neighborhood we knew it was time to come home. Right? Kids

[00:23:35] those anxiety triggers show up but fundamentally it's still anxiety as one thing in particular. Yeah. Because at the root of all of this is we're all just human beings and we all desire and want the same things you know our basic wants desires our basic fears all of that as much as we feel like we're unique and special it's like no not really like everyone kind of has the same two or

[00:24:05] three you know core wounds that they have and everyone has how they show up looks different for everybody but at the core of it it's the same and so your book is I Am Perfectly Flossom I should always be on my desk here it is we want the thing there we go I want to talk about the book because how

[00:24:35] do you you don't have to share exactly what you say in the book but how do you go from embracing your imperfections so where do you begin so it's co-authored with my good friend Tom Collins and we come from very different backgrounds he's a retired lawyer and trial lawyer and I'm me and we share

[00:25:05] stories of ourselves throughout the book we share stories of other folks throughout the book but it's really looking at how perfectionism has infiltrated our lives but also how does it show up for men and women how does it show up in the workplace how does it show up for kids and the impacts of that arguing that how do we move from seeking perfectionism to a place of

[00:25:35] striving for excellence on the cover we have a kintsugi bowl and kintsugi is the art philosophy of golden repair it's a Japanese art and they take broken pottery they put the pottery back together and mend the cracks with gold dust making the repaired piece more valuable more beautiful than the original so we take that as an analogy and apply it to ourselves because we all have cracks and broken

[00:26:04] parts right no one escapes it yeah and so if we can embrace those cracks and broken parts within ourselves and fill them with love and strive for excellence versus trying perfection is in the eye of the beholder yeah right I mean yes there are things that need to be perfect like when it comes to airplanes and you know other technical things like that we get that but

[00:26:34] when it comes to ourselves and the work that we're doing in the world noticing where where's enough enough versus moving past that mark to burnout overwhelm over performing yeah I always feel like at the core so much of it is about how do I describe it it's so much of this is really

[00:27:04] about each of us recognizing that we cannot make things perfect all the time we cannot control things we cannot you know we just don't have that kind of power and I think it's this interesting thing where it's this feeling I think sometimes I see this with clients where it's a little bit like well no no I can do that I can do it don't worry like I can do it and I can make it perfect and if I keep doing that if I have these high

[00:27:34] standards every single time right then it will come together it will be perfect and I think that's one of the hardest parts I goes against right because we need certainty in our DNA but society and the world and culture and just people how we interact with each other there is no certainty so I always see when I think about perfectionism I always see it as a

[00:28:03] way of trying to get that certainty trying to guarantee it when it's impossible yeah no I love that that's a great perspective on that it's interesting because the whole book started from Tom reading an article about Ali Reisman the Olympic gymnast oh right and this was many years ago before we even knew each other and so one of the

[00:28:33] opening quotes in the book is from Ali Reisman that says I think imperfection is beauty because as a gymnast as an Olympic gymnast they are striving for perfection to the detriment of their body right you know they've dedicated their entire lives to getting that perfect two minute routine and it it then becomes

[00:29:02] obsessive right and and while that can create amazing outcomes what's the cost yeah well and I think the other part of that is back to what we were saying earlier which is Ali got so much reinforcement for doing that right you know you go to the Olympics your people know who you are right endorsement deals whatever it is so I think that's

[00:29:32] also very hard too when you have these things where it's like no no no I need to be perfect here and that's what I've been striving for it worked so well when I was a gymnast that's the crux because yeah it is socially acceptable it's socially acceptable to strive for perfectionism now the thing is there's a difference between striving for excellence

[00:30:01] and toxic perfectionism okay so describe the differences right so striving for excellence is really doing your bringing your very best but not to the detriment of your well-being toxic perfectionism is when it becomes almost an addictive behavior that you you can't get out of you're caught

[00:30:31] in that negative thought loop that has you recheck and triple check almost it could be likened to a version of OCD is it right is it right is it right how many times do I have to go back and double check it and triple check it to make sure that it's right because underneath that I have to get it right is I'm not enough I have to prove myself and it's coming from a place of lack

[00:31:01] versus a healthy place of I'm really good at what I do and I know that I can do this really well right as a former graphic designer it's like oh that's off two and it like it would make me choice like you have to have all the same fonts and so it's it's interesting how it shows up in different people and

[00:31:31] manifests in different ways and the impact that has on a person's physiology right so it's about not having an impact their physiology so it prevents them from living their lives in a good way yeah so I'm very curious what do you think is different I mean I'm always sort of fascinated when I

[00:32:03] today right as we said core people it's the same but I'm just curious of what have you seen with the rise of technology with your clients because I'll just say on my end what I saw was a huge rise in anxiety a tremendous rise in anxiety and a lot of

[00:32:44] or over the phone and I was an early adopter of Zoom so I started using Zoom in I don't 2014 maybe and so there's there's a convenience to that but yet there's also fears

[00:33:13] that came with that and but now with the rise of AI and how prevalent it is everywhere you can't get away from it I'm seeing folks who especially if they already had a lack of trust that lack of trust has gone way off the charts no I don't want your AI recorder on

[00:33:43] no I don't want to be on camera you know and it's fueling the other insecurities that they already have making it 10 times worse I

[00:34:14] know and know so know trust is because people ask me all the time what does Gen Z want trust they want to build a relationship and they want to trust you and so so much of that is you see why this is a response to it because we have you know because there's so many things that are untrustworthy so many things and that's

[00:34:44] only gotten amplified over the last 10 years yes right um you know I can't I I highly recommend going on a news diet yeah just don't even watch it um but yeah trust is is paramount I read a really interesting article um from this guy Ruben Hassad who writes about Claude specifically and how to use

[00:35:13] AI and he had a conversation with the founder of Deep Think at Google and you know talking about the moment of singularity in 2030 when AI like gets smarter than us humans and he's like well what sets us apart from AI at that point he's like our ability to discern to discern between good bad right or wrong to build connection

[00:35:43] and community and develop that level of trust and I and I can hear people going well I can have a I can have a relationship with my AI bot yes and it's not the same as the human to human connection and developing that real sense of trust and I think because we've been online especially since the pandemic I think those muscles have

[00:36:13] gotten very weak and how do we how do we build those connections in real time in real life you know I I have seen just in myself like when I go to in-person events I'm like I feel a little awkward like oh right hello like I will find a person and have a lovely conversation with them but the mixing and mingling like oh I've gotten

[00:36:43] more introverted as I've gotten older yeah but that's but that apparently that's very common like that you do become more introverted as you as you get older that's what someone shared with me um oh you just had made such a I'm sorry people

[00:37:13] this is just being in your 50s it's just like oh my god it's right there it's right there yeah I had amnesia I at least have an excuse for when that happens all the time so oh my and we

[00:37:42] came out of the the woods ran this was back in florida um at college and the horse saw the barn and took off in a full tilt gallop and I wasn't ready for that and I lost the stirrup and fell off and laid it on my noggin and my friend Tracy who was with me who was a nursing student at the time she tells the story so well she's like and your shoulders were this way and your head was this way and you're breathing like

[00:38:12] she tells it every time it's hilarious but um yeah I don't remember any of that I uh woke up in the hospital I don't know like a day later or something and I'm like Tracy where am I she's like well we're horseback riding and fell off and you landed on your head and five minutes later Tracy what's going why am I so what's happening and she tell me again and then five minutes later I'd be like

[00:38:43] Tracy what's I I don't understand you know and eventually because I kept asking her over and over again she's just started laughing at me I'm like what's so funny so it was curious because I could remember who I was I didn't realize I was in Gainesville Florida I thought I was in school in North Carolina and so it was my short term memory that got whacked yeah so when I would study

[00:39:12] in school after that it's like I knew that I studied I could see the page that the answer was on in the book but I couldn't read the words on the page it was like everything was behind a veil wow and so I totally understand what you're saying there's like oh wait it's right there in the tip of my tongue wait give it a minute it'll come forward so wait but is that amnesia or is that like a bad concussion I had

[00:39:42] retrograde amnesia you had retrograde amnesia that's so interesting yeah because I think we think about it I mean of course I was waiting for this soap opera moment but it sounds like what you're describing is probably much more accurate of what amnesia really looks like it's not you waking up going who am I yeah I mean that's a that's a long-term amnesia case I wasn't that and it only lasted it lasted I don't know maybe three days

[00:40:12] and then everything started to come back for the most part the accident itself has never come back but yeah it put a real chink in my studying and my grades which I was not happy about to the point where I had to go plead my case to stay in school to the dean of the college and the

[00:40:41] note that I know that it's in there somewhere but I can't put my the words around it in this moment but this is what I find so fascinating and maybe

[00:41:11] I'm trying to make a connection that's not even really there but it's fascinating to me that this is the work that you do right it's about accessing parts of the brain that you can't normally access it's about right you know connecting these two things it's just I'm sure it sounds like you've made the connection from the look on your face you've made this connection before actually no I've never connected those dots before I'm like oh you're right isn't that fascinating it's hilarious yeah no the funny thing is I

[00:42:29] to ironically ironically I've actually gone back to grad school to get my master's in marriage and family therapy as you know which has been really fun because now I get to go much deeper into all of the stuff in a way that

[00:43:00] this and they recognize themselves like oh yeah that's I am a people pleaser I am an over functioner do you have any thoughts on what could they do where do you start what could they do today to start to create some of these

[00:43:39] where hot in the oh it has to be perfect it has to be perfect just asking themselves well does it really and if the answer is oh yes yes

[00:44:09] well then why why does it need to be perfect what are you trying to prove something to yourself or to others and is that actually healthy because if the answer is the no then celebrate that like oh okay I I'm at a different path point choice point and then get some support around enhancing that new behavior

[00:44:39] learning when I actually want to say no and honoring the no versus blanket saying yes to whatever yeah well thank you so much for coming on the show Michelle share with everyone we're going to have everything in the show notes but share with everyone where they can find you anything that you want to plug or tell us about sure so you can always find me at michellemolitor.com that's Michelle with one L you can find me on LinkedIn on Facebook on

[00:45:08] Instagram my handle on Instagram is rapid rewiring rapid rewire sorry rapid rewire and yeah I'm conversation if you're curious to know how this work can be supportive of you and every Monday I offer mindful minute Mondays at noon Pacific time so it's 30 minutes of guided meditation you just want to pause and breathe

[00:45:38] and set some positive intentions for your week ahead in community so I invite everybody to come join me for that and yeah thanks again Tess for having me on the show it's always fun to talk with you yeah that sounds so interesting so every Monday noon Pacific time anyone can join anyone can join sign up once you'll get a reminder every Monday at 11 a.m. say hey month starts in an hour come join us yeah whoever

[00:46:08] shows up shows up it's all good no that's great well thank you so much Michelle and thanks so much for listening to the gen mess with Tess remember we're not just fixing the mess we're learning how to live in it stay curious be kind to yourself and I'll see you all next time you've been listening to the gen mess with Tess with your host Tess Brigham make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and make sure to follow Tess Brigham on all social channels to learn more about Tess's books courses or to have

[00:46:37] Tess speak to help clean up the gen mess at your organization head on over to Tessbrigham.com thanks for listening