Why Letting Go Takes More Strength Than Holding On

[00:00:00] I feel it's like a sign of strength to keep holding on to things, but actually it's often a sign of strength to let go of things. Change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. What we resist will persist. Trying to stay the course in something you know is not right for you, it tends to persist. You can't change the other person as much as you want to. When we hold on to an identity of something, it's incredibly difficult to let it go. There is no life without fear. Do you think acceptance creates freedom?

[00:00:28] If I can remove the fear, what decision would I make? Harry, good to see you my friend. Welcome again to another episode of Mindful Paths. We're going to mix it up a little bit today. We've got a slightly different approach to today's show. I think we mentioned our last episode. We're going to be talking about letting go. Very much on previous episodes we've talked about the pathway of surrender, the book by David Hawkins. But we thought, because there's a quote that kind of resonates with Harry and there's a quote that resonates with me,

[00:00:53] we'll bring our quotes to the table for our listeners to hear and maybe just kind of unpick them, tear them apart, talk about how they resonate for us. So I'm bringing a quote from Steve Maraboli to the conversation. It's about letting go. And he says, The truth is, unless you let go, unless you forgive yourself, unless you forgive the situation, you cannot move forward. So Harry, welcome. Let's hear your quote, buddy, and let's dissect these and talk about letting go today. It should be a good chat.

[00:01:19] Well, afternoon, Nick. Yes, let's. Well, I've got a couple, but I'm going to start one which doesn't have the word letting go in, but it's by Tony Robbins. So obviously someone many people have heard of, but I've been following him now 20 years, actually. But it's attributed to him, whether it's him or not, who knows. But change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. So that's my first one.

[00:01:42] The other one is on the same theme, but slightly different angle, I would consider it as being by a woman advice columnist called Ann Landers. But some people believe that holding on and hanging in there are signs of great strength. However, there are times when it takes much more strength to know when to let go and then do it. So those I could talk about for a little while, actually, on both those. But remind me, what was your quote again?

[00:02:07] My quote is the truth is, unless you let go, unless you forgive yourself, unless you forgive the situation, you can't move forward. And obviously that's pertinent to me because of my situation. For those that know, I've had a few traumatic moments, one of which was an accident that I was involved in and what I caused, which had fatal consequences ultimately. And it took me a long time to forgive myself and a long time to forgive the situation. And I found it very difficult to move forward. And that's when I discovered this book, which is by David R. Hawkins, Letting Go, The Pathways to Surrender, which I'm putting on the screen for those that are watching on YouTube.

[00:02:36] It was a transformative book for me. And I think if you were to boil that book down, ultimately, his core argument in the book is that one's suffering comes not from what happens, but from the emotions that we suppress. And that was definitely true for me. I was trying to resist them. I was trying to rationalize them. And sometimes it's hard to rationalize things that, in my case, was an accident that I had not predicted and not planned for. And it's, you know, the rational mind isn't always your friend. It's difficult and it can be difficult to escape.

[00:03:01] So a lot of the suffering for me did come from my emotions and from my imagination of what was going on and what other people may be feeling or thinking. It was quite a powerful book for me. But I know it's resonated. That book itself, I think his first earlier book, Power Versus Force, resonated with you. Letting Go is something that for either of us coaching clients or working with children or kids or whoever, we know that letting go can be a very powerful thing to be able to do. But it's not easy.

[00:03:26] Yeah, I mean, I think that quote is really focused on this idea of emotionally letting go and everything else. I think for a lot of people is a challenge to do. We tend to hold on to things too long. I think for me, on an emotional side of things, I feel like I don't know whether I consciously hold on to things. I believe I'm much worse at physically letting go of things.

[00:03:52] And I think that's where this came about last week when we were talking about it. I think I'd mentioned that I just stopped teaching my yoga class, which I've been teaching for about 10 years. And really, I didn't have my heart in it for probably the last five since COVID days. It all kind of changed for various reasons, whether it was the timing, students, numbers, whatever. And it's a pattern. And we talked about it before.

[00:04:15] I think when I was in Mindvalley, we were talking about how the universe gives you lessons and it keeps giving you those lessons over and over and over again until it gets through your fixed skull or my fixed skull. And I think one of the ones that I'm noticing the pattern, and I've gone as far back as 12. I'm sure I can go back further of this idea of holding on to things, situations, people, whatever it might be, way longer than it needs to be.

[00:04:41] And it takes me a long time to get to a decision point where I'm then willing to just change. And I think that's where, I guess, the second quote comes in for me. I said from that woman, Anne, where it was talking about people thinking they've got strength by holding on to things. Because I think a big part of me was about not quitting things. So anything I've ever tried, I've at some point quit. Music, martial arts, whatever.

[00:05:07] Having on your health and wellness journey, if you stay ready, resolute and... I mean, there's a couple of things in my life where I feel like I've been very consistent. I guess one is that health thing. But I think that, if anything, I think is a conversation about identity for me more than anything else. And that happened when I was around four years old, where there was a shift in me. But when I'm thinking about friendships generally was the one thing where I felt quite consistent with, which is why I've spent a lot of time and effort in maintaining friendships, which I would say,

[00:05:37] admittedly, over the last 20 years has been much, much harder. As we get older, life gets busier for a lot of people, especially if you've got kids and you move away and everything else. And I feel like I'm always the one pulling that relationship together with many of the people in my life. And so I don't want to quit that. But sometimes that second part of that quote where we think our great strength comes from actually letting go rather than just holding on to what was. And I think for me, that's where I have a big challenge is make it change.

[00:06:03] I've heard some of Tony Robbins talking about letting go of friends that pull you down or friends that suck your energy, energy vampires, as you call them. I think for me, letting go means it doesn't mean something different, but it's had a more profound impact on me from a feelings perspective, where my feelings have driven my behaviors perhaps more than I realized. I mean, I certainly post-accident, I was dealing with reactions and emotions ranging from fear, anger, guilt, shame, definitely.

[00:06:29] And then there's also pride and desire in different ways, but you feel embarrassed to show those things because you've got those other emotions at play. And as a result of that, we often think we're making rational decisions where you're not. And, you know, in my instance, I became almost agoraphobic. I was making decisions that I thought were rational. I was staying indoors out of respect, but in reality, it was fear disguised to shame. And I was almost creating a prison for myself and decorating it and calling it home because I was scared of the outdoors.

[00:06:55] And I think that for me, it was letting go for me more of the feelings and the emotions and the judgment, which I know are more emotional, I guess, things you would quantify as being emotional things rather than physical things. I think, although that's not to minimize one or the other, because I also know letting go of people sometimes in your life can be one of the hardest things to do, which also is something we've both had to do in terms of letting go of almost the grief of losing a father or parent as well, which is equally challenging. Both things are intertwined, right?

[00:07:22] Whether it's a people or a feeling because people create those feelings in you or places, jobs, anything creates an emotional. So I don't think separate as maybe we've made out in the first few minutes of this call, because when you do let go, like for me, it was maybe it's judgment as well about quitting, right? Quitting things, right? And I'm a big believer in doing things because I say I'm going to do them and I have my commitment.

[00:07:50] So when I was doing my daily swims or my daily dips, as we called them in Mindvalley, and even three years ago when I first started doing them, where I said, right, I'm committing to doing it every day. And I just made that commitment internally to my head. I didn't say to anyone else. But one thing I heard many years ago, which really resonated with me, and I can't remember where I heard it from, it would be someone like a Bob Proctor, Brian Tracy type person, Jim Rohn kind of person. But it's like when you make a promise to yourself, but then you don't keep it every time you effectively chip in away a little bit of your self-esteem.

[00:08:20] And so that really resonated with me. And so now, as best I can, I hate not keeping my word. And the simply put is because I said I would do it, that I'll do it. And so quitting things. I mean, I did, to be fair, I mean, one of my second ever blog posts I wrote many years ago, or not a second one, but maybe it was after about five weeks of doing a daily blog post, was why quitting is good.

[00:08:44] And it was this idea that, a bit like the quote where actually sometimes you hold on to things because you think you're being strong by holding on to them. Or we're scared to let go of them, right? We just always guard the identity we've created for ourselves sometimes. It's about maybe what you feel it says about you, right? So for example, I had committed to writing a blog every day. And I think, I don't know if I put a time scale on that or not at the time, but I'd done about five weeks. And at the time I was then going to go to my yoga team's training and I knew I wouldn't be able to do it then.

[00:09:14] And so I kind of pre-entered it and said that I'm not going to do a daily blog. But actually there are many things that are good to quit, right? Smoking for one, right? Toxic relationships for another. So I think it was just about a reframe and about understanding that it's not big and strong to hold on to things just because you said. Actually, time changes and your opinions and things change. And being able to make those changes is a sign of strength.

[00:09:39] Because I think for me, it's a little bit better the devil you know than the one you don't where you stick to things for too long. I think there's a point in there. You mentioned relationships and that doesn't resonate in this particular example with myself personally. I'm very happy to be married, but I can understand how it could in others. It does resonate with me from an emotional standpoint, but I'm trying to sort of link the two together, which is the idea that what we resist will persist. So it's like if you say that, you know, I mustn't feel anxious, you're almost giving that anxiety energy.

[00:10:06] And if you're trying to, you know, resist the, trying to stay the course and something you know is not right for you, it tends to persist. That was, you know, the challenges you're faced with tend to persist. It's a bit like views as a friend or a toxic partner. You know, you want to try and be strong. You want to try and be the person that resists all the things you know are going wrong, but you can't change the other person as much as I want to. So that persists. And ultimately, sometimes you just have to be brave enough to either let that emotion go. So you're not feeding energy or let that person go.

[00:10:36] But it's a challenge because often those things are intertwined with the identities we create for ourselves. For example, the resilient individual. Someone has created an identity of always being resilient under pressure. And they're in a relationship that's toxic. They may feel like they have to sustain that resilience because that's the identity for themselves they've created. But actually in doing that, the issues are persisting. They're not able to let go of the identity they've created or that relationship they've created. I think the same is true for emotions. I know I went through it.

[00:11:03] The more I try to resist something like, you know, I'm feeling anxious about going outside, the more I was almost feeding that statement or feeding that energy to allow it to be true. I don't know if you've experienced something similar. You know, where energy goes, attention flows or whatever the phrase is. Where attention goes, energy flows. That's the one. But so I remember hearing that resist persisting at my NLP training back in 2010. And I kind of really jived with that because I think it's so true. And it's really about what you focus on comes to pass. Right.

[00:11:33] So I often gave the example. I can't remember if I've shared this story or not, but it'd been problematic the last few months, my left shoulder and it's an injury I picked up in 2004, snowboarding. And the way that the injury came about, and I think I did a YouTube video about this many years ago, about this, what you resist, persist kind of idea. And I was going off piste as part of a lesson actually. And this bit was an off piste lesson part. And we were going through the woods, some woods thing.

[00:12:00] And we were going towards some kind of little mini jump and I was on a snowboard. And as I was getting towards the jump, I realized that I was going a bit too fast. So I tried to sort of slow down a little bit, but by slowing down, it kind of altered me a little bit. And then I kind of saw this little tree stump that was kind of in my path as I was slowing down because I was altering my trajectory. And as I kept focusing on that tree stump, I couldn't shift my positioning from that tree stump.

[00:12:27] And so I hit it straight on and then I landed on my hands, but my hands had wrist guards on. So I think all the shocks that would have broken my wrist kept the wrist intact, but it dislocated and fractured my shoulder. And now 20 odd years later, I'm really struggling with doing simple things, I think sometimes with the shoulder. But that was a very good example of, you know, what you tend to focus on comes to pass or what you resist because I was trying to resist that particular stump persisted.

[00:12:55] And I think this goes to a larger idea about how your thoughts become your reality and all of that. I think there's a larger piece there around suppression as well. I can, I use my dad's prostate cancer, but if I use your shoulder, I know it was an injury and it happened in a sudden situation, but often we'll get a niggle, right? And we know it's not right, but we'll ignore it. In my dad's case, obviously he had some of the symptoms of prostate cancer and he ignored them. He's like, you know, I'll just push it down. I'll be fine. I'll put it down. You know, I'll keep pushing it away from, don't want to upset anyone else, make anyone else worried. And I think we do that a lot with our emotions as well.

[00:13:25] We suppress them, we push them down. But we know when that happens, actually, typically the problem will get worse. They don't want nowhere to go. So it'll start to manifest. It'll start to just completely continue to replicate in the body or in the system. And this is the same with my dad's situation. I know it's not an emotion, but he didn't see the symptoms or kept pushing them down, didn't let them go outward, didn't go and speak to someone, didn't let them come out. Sometimes when we suppress things, it's very different to letting go of something by pushing it down. And I'm using that as an example, yeah, I'll be fine. You might sort of let it go. My injury is fine. It's okay.

[00:13:55] But we know internally that it's not. And then later on, lo and behold, it comes back and you realize the injury's got worse or it's now beyond standard healing. You'd want to go and get it reset or have an operation done. Or in my dad's case, you end up with something that's now gone from being curable to incurable because we thought our version of letting it go is suppressing it rather than our version. I would like to think of you and me, Harry, our version of letting go, how we understand it is actually to push it outward, to be outward about it and not to sort of stuff it down in the system or to block it in our minds.

[00:14:24] The same is true with both injuries and with emotions. I think a lot of people think letting go is burying it, you know, and it's not. I think we're ties together with another thing that we were talking about last week, which is both your mom and my mom's properties that they're maintaining their holiday homes, as it were. It was my dad's birthday, actually, on Saturday. We had a little group call, four of us, my sisters and my mom. And as you know, I was in circus recently. We were at a flat and it's full of like dad's memories.

[00:14:54] And my mom is trying to, wanted to recapture the essence of the glory days when my grandma was around, my dad was around, we would have our, like he'd be cooking for us every day or staying there. And so there's an emotional tie and she was visibly, obviously upset on Saturday as we were talking about dad and moments. And I was sharing things that I was thinking about with dad. And I was thinking about him all the time in the flat because everything I was seeing, like he left like a toolbox there as well.

[00:15:24] And it had the things I needed at the time that I was doing some work or the water bottle that he had in the fridge, just little things. Like the cooker was a little bit bust up because you didn't know which hob turned on what, but there was like a little key that he'd like put across or a triangle with the different things and match it out. So all the little things that I, quintessentially my dad, right, is there. So this environment is emotionally charged, like hugely charged.

[00:15:54] And so letting go of that physical, it can help let go maybe of the kind of more mental, emotional point as well, which obviously my mom doesn't really want to do. Like you keep saying that the pain actually doesn't get better with time and time isn't a healer and it gets worse and everything else. And I can't compare it because I haven't lost a spouse. I've lost a father. And I think, yes, it is painful and maybe I'm in a bit denial, but you know, time does change the charge on it a little bit for me.

[00:16:22] My mom, I don't know that she ever really accepted a dad's death, a mom's death, husband's death. She's really tied into it. Part of the challenge, and listen, it's difficult when you're dealing with grief and we've both been through it and I'm sure many of our listeners have, is separate because the way you even talk about the keys is every time you attach a memory or a story to the situation. And I do think grief maybe is a much harder thing to let go of because you have to go through the different stages and you have to kind of almost time is the best healer.

[00:16:49] But I do think, just to take this to a slightly different example, often we attach stories to things we don't need to attach them to. When we are able to separate the story from what's in front of us, actually it's easier to let go. So I think you've given a few examples in the past about the speed of a car on a playground. I'll give one when, you know, we get cut up and first thing we do, we get cut up, you know, on our way to work, someone cuts us up, we need to go into the side of them. We're instantly angry and we tend to attach a story to that individual who will say, that individual is an absolute wanker, whatever the language is, right? Because they've cut me up, I've nearly crashed.

[00:17:18] We create a story to it makes us angry. We feed the anger and you say, now I'm angry now. You've ruined my morning. So we're feeding the anger, we're feeding the emotion. And actually one of the quickest ways to let all that emotion go is detach yourself from the story you've created. Now, you know this already, but for our listeners, if I then suddenly told you the person that cut you up was rushing to get to their partner who was going through an emergency cesarean section, he didn't know, he just had the call, desperate to get the hospital in time and it's all quite serious. Maybe you could go in intensive care, whatever it is.

[00:17:45] Suddenly we've changed the story in our head and that angle actually suddenly goes potentially to worry. You may even go to the point of, I can't believe I nearly went into them. You know, you always feel guilty for the situation. So I think there's two elements here. One is potentially if you want to let go, it's separating the feeling from the story, which can be very, very difficult. But it's that reframing and that ability to understand that most of our emotions are attached to some story or some imagination or something that we're telling ourselves. Easier said than done.

[00:18:12] Very easy for me to say this on a show, but it does work if we're able to do that. But I do think when it comes to grief, it's really, really hard because they're not necessarily fictional stories. They're genuine memories, but it does keep the memory alive, which is great. But with that comes all the emotion. That's really, really hard. I think that maybe they're slightly separate things in terms of how we deal with them. But I do think for our listeners, if you're holding onto something and it's ruining your day at a much sort of less serious level, it's being mindful of the stories we're creating

[00:18:41] in our heads that are sometimes projecting or creating our feelings and yet they don't even exist. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And something just sort of just popped into my head as you were talking because one of my favorite things that I say all the time is how you do anything is how you do everything. How you do anything is how you do everything. So what that means for those listening is how you sharpen one area of your life is typically reflective of how you sharpen other areas. And I often say this with my students, when I'm asking them to raise their hand and they

[00:19:10] can't be bothered to raise it very high. I'm like, actually, that shows me you can't be bothered in other areas of your life. Now, of course, there's a bit of a generalism and whatever else, but it jumped into my head at that point because I was thinking about how we let go of the objects, the people, the jobs, the whatever it might be in our life, how that might be reflective of not being able to let go emotionally as well, right? And how it all ties together.

[00:19:35] Now, I feel and I'm curious to know from your perspective, Nick, I feel like you're someone that is so forget the emotional part for now, but I'm interested in the kind of day to day stuff that maybe everyone's going to encounter, like holding on to a job too long, holding on to things too long. I feel like you're not someone that does that because before you answer, the reason I say this is because you go full on into things, right? And we've kind of established you're a little bit all or nothing with certain things, right?

[00:20:02] When it was obstacle course racing, you went to the top of your game on that in a very short period of time. Triathlon sub 10 hours, Ironman. Then that one coin, and I forgot to ask you since then, but you got, you were getting like really into your yoga. More recently, it was really into paddle. I don't know. But then I feel like you go and then you're doing your coaching, your FIFA coaching thing. And I saw you were there with Leo the other day. So you're still coaching on the weekend, but I feel like you're going to things, but then you're quite happy to let it run its course. So then move on to the next thing.

[00:20:30] Whereas I feel like I hold on and it might be emotionally and therefore the emotional leads to the actual reality of things, whether that was my yoga teaching, whether that was the jobs that I ended up either getting made redundant from where I should have really been leaving them months or years before, whether it was a relationship when I was like 12 years old and I got the girl to dump me, even though I wanted to dump personal things. Like all of these things are patterns throughout my life. I've noticed that I'm not very good at letting go of the situation, but I feel like you might be someone totally different.

[00:21:00] I don't know if I've always been like that. I have two things that would come to mind. I would say both these though, with the last 10 years, probably maybe seven to 10 years, I started changing a few things. And some of this came through from my own coaching journey with a coach and both from studying to become a coach and working with clients. One of them, and it's obviously in my bold framework for overcoming fear is labeling. So I do this like daily. I literally always label an emotion to Lucy. So I'll label how I'm feeling. So if I'm waking up and I see something that's made me angry, I'll tell Lucy, I feel really angry today.

[00:21:30] Like I label the fear. I find as soon as I label the emotion, if I'm feeling full of love, I'll say, hey, Lucy, I'm feeling full of love today for you. Or if I'm feeling shameful about, I do find labeling the emotion I'm feeling during the day has been really, really powerful because what it does, when we think about things, we let things multiply. Our mind can take us so far down one route so fast that we almost, the momentum so quick, we lose sight of where the first emotion came from. And I find when I label things, it A, prevents my imagination from taking flight.

[00:21:59] I think also allows me to, when I say it out loud, which is harder. So if I live with you, Harry, I'll tell you every day how I'm feeling. I will just label it because saying it to you is very different from how I imagine it. And often I get to things, or I'll look back to your point. Let's say I'm playing, I'll tell you, give an example. I've stopped coaching on a Sunday. I coach on a Saturday. I used to coach on a Sunday morning as well. And I said to Lucy one morning, I'm frustrated. And she said, you've said you're frustrated now sort of three weeks in a row because either the sessions weren't ready or the class was small or I'm not enjoying it. I'm feeling a bit agitated this morning.

[00:22:28] And she was like, every time you go to coaching now, the emotion you attach to a Saturday to a Sunday is vastly different. And it catches other people. I can help capture my sense as well. Sometimes I'm doing it because I'm doing it. I realize I'm not enjoying it anymore. So if I'm not enjoying it, labeling it allows me to capture that a little bit earlier to go, well, actually, what do I want to do then? I still want to take Leo because he gets enjoyment. But actually something I'm missing in the moment is my running. So now I still take him to the coaching. I don't coach, but I go for a run. I come back and watch him at the end. I think the second point, I've mentioned this many times in my show, you mentioned one

[00:22:57] of your favorite sayings is how I do one thing, how I do everything. For me, it's what I say yes, what am I saying no to? And what do I say no, what am I saying yes to? And sometimes when I'm going into my hobbies, I remember the obstacle course racing like yesterday, I turned up at a race. I'd driven three hours to get there. It was over in Peterborough. I got there. I didn't even know why I was there. Like I wasn't enjoying it anymore. And I realized I'd said yes to this and I'd been away from my family. They were going to see a darts farm, Devon country day. And I had massive FOMO and I paid to be at this race.

[00:23:26] I spent all this time in the car. I wasn't into the race. I didn't really care about where I came at this point because the enjoyment, I realized at that moment, the enjoyment had gone for me. Like I still enjoyed racing and I enjoyed the label of being good and that egocentric stuff of performing, but I didn't actually enjoy the race itself anymore. The enjoyment for whatever reason had dissipated and I wanted to be somewhere else more. I remember phoning Lucy as soon as I'd finished the race and said it's the last one. I'm just not. And she's like, why? And I was like, I want it to be where you were. Like I got here and realized it's not where I want to be.

[00:23:53] And I think I'm quite good at recognizing those emotions early. I think I'm good at that because I labeled them out loud. And if I am doing something, I have to be really clear on the reason I'm doing it. And the way you'd know you're clear is by understanding what you're not doing. So if I'm doing this podcast with you now, I know I'm not in the other room with Leo playing on a computer game. So I've got to make sure that time is up. I'm making a choice now to be here because I enjoy this. I get more out, you know, I get a lot out of it and I'll make that time up elsewhere rather than just saying yes for the sake of it and then trying to catch up later. So I think those two things have helped.

[00:24:23] Two things on that I wanted to comment on. One is I feel like I recognize the emotion in me quite quickly, right? The frustration, then they're not having the joy of it or whatever. It just takes me a long, long, long time to act where I think it goes back to that Tony Robbins one about changes, the pain of making change being greater than the pain of staying the same. And leading to the second point, which is you knew when you were saying yes to the obstacle course racing, what you were saying no to.

[00:24:52] I was with certain things. I'm like, well, I know that I don't want this, but I'm not sure what it is that I want in space for that. I think with the Fridays, I thought, okay, I could get my Friday evenings back. I can stay in Brighton. I can do beach volleyball because there was a beach volleyball at that time. So I kind of knew it wasn't strong enough. And also because I felt, and I haven't taught since giving up in April because I knew there wasn't something else to take its place in terms of the teaching thing.

[00:25:18] But I was also thinking to myself, well, I don't, I'm not here to be a full-time yoga teacher. I don't want to be, I enjoyed it. And that was also part of the challenge is that a lot of time I resisted wanting to do it after working a long week and traveling into London. But whenever I was there and afterwards, I always felt miles better. But I think it was like, A, not knowing, one, knowing the feeling, but not acting on it for months, maybe years later, but think that you're not someone that does that.

[00:25:43] And then two, not really having that definitive, like when you say yes to this, what are you saying no to? And I'm like, well, what am I saying no to? Maybe I'm just saying no to an evening on the couch. Maybe that's why I found my diary full of stuff. I don't know. Maybe, maybe without his outline. Yeah, that's the other thing that's interesting about you is I was talking about you with a friend the other day. I can't remember in what context exactly, but I was just saying basically you're probably one of the busiest people I know, if not the busiest.

[00:26:10] Maybe my mate in Austin is on a par with you, but I think you're way busier. And I'm just curious to know where that comes from as well, because sometimes I remember years ago, I would fill my day with things. And when I say fill my day, I don't mean necessarily with activities, but I remember I would put on the music as soon as I wake up. I'd have a TV on when I come in the house. There would not be a time of me being right with no sound or sitting or whatever.

[00:26:37] I feel like you don't, I don't know, you get, you need to fill your time all the time. Because I remember like even on a Sunday, you had to do a project of guards at the crockery. Yeah, I do. And listen, I'm sure a psychoanalyst would challenge me up. Maybe it's ADHD. Me being sat in quiet calm, I find not uncommon. Does that make sense? Yeah, good. But I don't even necessarily mean like being in that state, but like not having a project or just doing like work. Yeah, I guess they just give me purpose. They make me want to achieve.

[00:27:07] They make me want to achieve for myself, for those around me to give back. And I was like this, you knew me before the accident and after. But I think post-accident, I'm always trying to add as many feathers to the scale as possible, which will never kind of equalize the weight of the lead on the other side. I think the more projects I've had, the more, a lot of people will say to me, it's distraction. I don't actually agree with that. I've psychoanalyzed myself. I don't think I like to distract myself. I generally think I like goals. I like working towards an outcome. I'm very happy that when I've achieved the outcome to move on to the next one.

[00:27:35] If I go back to the quote I mentioned at the start by Steve Marabelli, I know there was some emotion and feelings in the middle of it. But if you do the start of that quote is, the truth is unless you let go. And the end of the quote is, you cannot move forward. So I feel like sometimes I like to do a project, let it go, move on. And I'm not, I say to anyone, if you're doing a goal, and I'm sort of moving around the place here is how my brain works. I'm never really attached to the goal either. So I have a goal, but without the attachment. So I'll say to you, let's go do the podcast. Let's do this. But I'm not attached to it becoming the number one podcast in the space.

[00:28:04] I'm happy with getting the thing off the ground and moving. And wherever it goes, it goes. I would love it to be number one in the space, but I don't have this obsession with the attachment to it. I just like starting things. I like creating things. You're what we call, I think, like what I call an in time kind of timeline kind of person. So when you, this is why often you put a million and two things, maybe scheduled together, or you're going back to back with things. Cause you, you feel like, okay, I can do a call at 6.30 and then come on the call with

[00:28:33] Harry at 6.30, but because you're seeing time whilst in it, as opposed to from a vantage point. And I think that kind of translates to the things you were talking about just now. The goals are great and having the goals is great. And I think it's a, it's a way to move forward. And I think by not being attached to it is very, very new because for example, like we've talked about before in this podcast, when you came up with the idea of the podcast,

[00:29:01] I was future pacing lots of things, right? Or thinking like, oh, we're going to do this. Whereas you're less about like, how are we going to do it? You just like, we'll do it. We'll work out the how later. We've talked about this many times, right? The ready, fire, aim and ready, fire and all that. So I think that comes from being in the moment in a way. I feel like you are kind of in the moment that you're in, but maybe then, I don't know if that is a distraction as well. The moment, I mean, I would agree with, I have a very poor memory.

[00:29:28] And I think that's often because I'm only ever like, try and be in the present with all these different projects. And I have a really poor memory of the past, really poor. I lose to remember things. And I just, I told you that funny thing I mentioned on the show before where we had some friends over and I said, they said, what are your regrets? Something you didn't do when you were in London. And I mentioned a play that I wanted to go and see. And I really wanted to go see one for a cuckoo's nest. And she was like, I took you. I'm like, did you? And then suddenly I remembered, but I was like, I've just highlighted something my wife actually took me to. It's so embarrassing. So I think that that's one part.

[00:29:57] And my wife would agree with everything you've just said. Like my concepts of time is very different to hers. And I'm late a lot. It's not a good trait. And yet I do, I'm aware of it being a poor trait. And yet I seem to constantly fall foul of my timekeeping and trying to fit too much in. And as this podcast, I was 10 minutes late because I finished another one that ended. The moment it ends and we're ready to start the next one. Of course, it never quite works out like that. But I have the best intentions. But I know it's very frustrating for those around me. I have my wife puts up with me. I have no idea.

[00:30:24] Are you ever late to a flight or a consultant's appointment? I have been. I've been called to my plane. Let's put it that way many times. But I haven't missed it. Some of it comes from, I've got another friend. He's a friend of a mutual friend of ours. And I have great conversations with him as well, actually. I really enjoy our conversations. We can get deep on all sorts of things. But he is notoriously late for things because he, again, is someone who's a bit of a genius,

[00:30:53] but he's very in that moment. And so he's not really thinking too much far ahead. Even though he runs his own business as well, actually, quite successfully and a bunch of other things. But for certain things, he's just not in his own little world, really. And so he would invariably be late or when we used to do Christmas drinks, he would always give the last one showing up because they're still back in their presence. And then they're like, if suddenly it's 10 to 11 or whatever, and then maybe just turn up then. That can be a nice thing. But again, everyone's different, right? So something I'm kind of a bit more on time.

[00:31:21] For example, my sister invited me for Sunday lunch yesterday. And initially she said two o'clock. Then she wanted to make it one. And I said, no, I can't do one o'clock. I'll do two. But if it's too much drama, then you can do one o'clock because of the kids and whatever else. But I made sure that I was there at two. But then they were just starting to do the vision. And my brother-in-law was going to jump in the shower. And I'm like, it was like probably 20 past two by the time we sat down. I'm thinking like about 20 minutes. I could have done the thing I needed to doing that 20 minutes, right?

[00:31:50] It's a bit annoying for me because I'm like, and then I went and babysat and I say, look, when do you need me there? Do you need me there at five? Before five? Should go there before five? So I literally turned up, I think, 20 seconds before five. Not deliberately, but I knew that I would be on time because they had to get out and whatever else. But I don't know. I'm just a bit more precise. But I do have, I think, a good memory. And I'm not sure if it's because of thinking about things a lot. Because I was watching a movie last night. And I've only watched it maybe once before, twice before with my niece.

[00:32:20] They were watching Doctor Strange. And there were several times in that where I would say the line before it came out. And she'd be like, I didn't know that. I'm like, I just know. I just remember certain things. I'll tell you an interesting story about lateness. This is how my brain works, my mind works. So we went to, I did an awards ceremony. I should have mentioned, I've got an award over there. I won mentor of the year. Oh yeah, I saw that. Congratulations. Very pleased with a nice coaching qualification there, voted on by my peers. And it was unexpected. The day after the awards ceremony, there was an event called the Reward Ramble, which

[00:32:46] was a kind of an event where we all rocked up and went for a walk around Regent's Park, right? And I thought, okay, it's 11 o'clock. It was quite a heavy night the night before being an awards ceremony. So I thought, I'll get up nice and early and I'll walk to the venue. So it's Waterloo to Regent's Park, like two and a half miles. Nice fresh walk in the morning. I'll give myself enough time because I don't want to make everyone late when they're waiting for me on the ramble. So I actually get on the first to arrive. Now that sounds like I'm really early. I was about three minutes to 11. And for whatever reason, the rest of the parties hadn't arrived. They'd gone to the wrong stop or whatever. But I was there.

[00:33:14] I was the first, pretty much the first to arrive after one other person. To the point where some of the group made a comment on the fact that I was early, which is a very rare thing. And I made a joke of myself saying, remember this, everyone. I'm here early. This never, ever happens. Now, because the rest of the group, this is how my brain works. Because the rest of the group hadn't yet arrived and we're like two minutes to 11, rather than wait and be social with the group that are there on time, the organizers, I decide that that means I can fit something else in. So I go away and I go and make a call to my managing director and just have a chat with him about a few things I needed to do. I was going to do it anyway later. I thought, I'll get it done now.

[00:33:44] I'm here early. And lo and behold, I'm on the call long enough. But I end up delaying the party leaving because they're waiting for me to go off the phone. I end up being late. So the only thing I've arrived for early. And it's like, I should know that should happen in my head. I'm thinking I can make a quick call. It's done. I've lost the concept of time for me. Then I get involved in the next thing. My focus is all in on the call. I've lost focus on why I'm there and I have to bring it back again. They end up starting walking without me and I'm dragging behind still on the phone call. I figure, you know, it's a 5k walk. I can catch them up and I'm not going to be missed.

[00:34:13] But it's not really the point. It's like I should have just been present when I got there early and enjoyed the moment. Instead, I think, oh, I can fit something else in. Off I go. I think that's another example. In a way, how you do things, Habear. I think because you are very good at letting go of the ramble in the region's park and then focusing on the next thing, which was the call with your managing director. You have a single processor and it processes one thing and then you let go and then it processes the next thing. And re-engage. Yeah, then re-engage.

[00:34:41] Whereas I feel like I don't do that, which is why I'm saying I remember from a long time ago. Like I said, the earliest memory I remember thinking of was when I was 12 years old and I had this girlfriend at the time and 12 year old type girlfriend, right? Whatever. I wanted it to end, but I basically made it so that she ended it. And or whether it was a job or whatever, where I'm kind of overrunning its course and I'm holding on. And I feel like, you know, that translates through many things where I kind of not, I

[00:35:10] don't know if I hold on emotionally as deeply as that, but I must do at some level because like I said, how you do everything is how you do everything. And I believe that to be largely true. And so what would be some practice that, I mean, you do it naturally. So it's harder for you to then maybe comment, but maybe you can. What would be the practice that you would suggest to people maybe who not necessarily emotionally holding on to things, but they're holding on to things. Because like I said, whether it's an object, it's still tied in emotionally for some reason or another, like your mom with the house in front.

[00:35:39] Well, I mentioned labeling. I mean, there's some scientific evidence that supports labeling in a fear perspective. So if you label things, it can help calm the parasympathetic system. And actually a vague fear is loud. A specific fear goes a lot much quieter. I'm going to mention that. The reason I mentioned that is a good question to ask ourselves is obviously relating it to fear again. If I can remove the fear, what decision would I make? So if you think about that with a toxic relationship, think about that as something you don't want to do, whatever. If I remove the fear, so even if I take it down to coaching, my fear is letting the other

[00:36:09] coaches down. Maybe they're going to ask me back. The fear of letting go of the responsibility. But ultimately, if I remove the fear, what's the decision I'd make? And for me, it's to stop coaching on the Sunday because I'm not enjoying it anymore to get out of the toxic relationship. I think fear keeps us bound longer than it needs to in many, many situations we're involved in. And it's really hard to remove the fear. But it's a question we can ask ourselves. If fear didn't exist, what would I do? It gives you the truth then. And I think then for me, I can kind of start to position myself or reframe myself in a way that takes me to where I want to go.

[00:36:38] It's funny when you were talking a moment ago about the ability to switch on, switch off back into the goal. I had an image in my head of a cassette on a bike, where the gears, they click in. Yeah. I feel like I'm in that gear. And when I change the gear, I can click out of that one and back into this one. I can click back even if I need to. It's not multitasking. I don't have too much challenge in being able to click in and click out. I think that works for me. But I would say remove the fear first and then ask yourself, what question, what decision would you make? It's not easy though. Yeah.

[00:37:07] Whether people call it fear or something else. But the first thing I guess, labeling, the key thing that in what you said there for me is something along the lines of, if this X, you called it fear, let's say if X didn't exist, let's say when it comes to, let's say the yoga teacher, and let's say I got, I was getting irritated or frustrated because I'm committing my Fridays and whatever else.

[00:37:32] So if that frustration didn't exist and that frustration is effectively the thing, what am I allowing space for something else? I think that could be quite useful because then I'm suddenly going, okay, well, then I can allow space to socialize at a beach volleyball or go to this dance thing or do whatever else thing it is on the Friday, which may be ultimately it's going to serve me better. You know, I guess for me often when it comes to health and wellbeing things or anything,

[00:38:00] we've talked about it for us, I often think, does this help me or does it hinder me? Yeah. Does it help me or does it hinder me? And you know, yeah, I can argue for both things, right? It helps me because I'm getting practice teaching and blah, blah, blah, whatever. But ultimately, yeah, it's kind of that pro and con list and seeing which weighs heavier. I just find it interesting when I see people. I remember an ex-girlfriend and she very good at cutting things out. Like when she made the decision, she was, I think at one point really into her capoeira.

[00:38:30] When I first met her, she was doing it four times a week and she was sukin on it. Then at some point in that first year we were going out, she wanted to focus on teaching yoga more. And when I met her, I think she was doing covers and teaching in church halls and things like that. And then we went to like a Tony Robbins thing after about a year and she kind of had a fire lit under her. And I think a lot of the things I shared with her helped as well, but then she made a decision and I think it maybe took her a little while, but I think she made a decision.

[00:38:59] It seemed quite quickly to just stop doing the capoeira. And then it was no coincidence that yoga elevated and she focused, but she didn't, that'd be in her life for seven years or something. She didn't want to go out when we first date in on a Friday night because she had to go to the capoeira, right? So it was a massive part. And then suddenly it was like, poof, like it never existed. Like she never really mentioned it ever. And I think partly what hurt me with that was actually that I knew that probably once

[00:39:26] we broke up, she was, might've been hard for her for a little bit or something, but there would be a real clinical cut. Whereas I think I was emotionally more invested for longer after the breakup because I hold on to things too long. It's interesting as well, because we're talking about emotions a lot today, but desire as well can sometimes be challenging. We sometimes say to ourselves, we need this in order to be okay. And I only mentioned that because we're linking it to, if we link this back to identity that you talked about earlier in the, in the show, I think we both talked about it.

[00:39:55] Like even with my running, sometimes I will convince myself that I need to run in order to be okay. But that's sometimes there's still a fear there sometimes is that, well, who am I if I don't have the running and am I willing, you know, now for me, I would still run. So if I took the fear out, I would still choose to run because it's something I also enjoy. But I do think desire sometimes can play tricks in us. We feel like we need something in order to be okay. And we don't want to let that thing go, whether that's a pacifier for a child or whatever it is. Like we need it, we need it, we need it.

[00:40:21] And we get, we can get so fixated on the desiring that thing that we can lose sight of everything else. It almost becomes psychologically dependent on what we're desiring. And I think sometimes that can make it really difficult to let go. We can like kind of lose track on who we are, go back to our identity again. Like sometimes we get so, I guess, entwined in our mind of who we are outwardly. Yeah. That we try and sustain it and we desire things to sustain it, but it doesn't always serve us. I mean, that can be the challenge.

[00:40:48] I think the key point there is, sorry to sort of interject a little bit, but this identity thing is so strong. It's one of the highest levels that we have other than, I guess, purpose when it comes to, was it Robert Dill's neurological levels of change? We won't go into it, but to make a change at an identity level is supremely hard, but it becomes immensely robust. And so like when we were talking about earlier in the show about me not quitting health and

[00:41:14] wellness or exercise or things like that, it's because it formed part of my identity at a super young age. I think four years old or five years old, I remember. I might've shared this story before running on the old Olympic track in Athens and competing against my sisters. And there was something that clicked in at that moment and it made me be a constant exerciser of some degree or another, whether it was judo when I was seven or eight years old to football, basketball, to now just doing gym stuff, whatever.

[00:41:41] When we hold onto an identity of something, it's incredibly difficult to let it go. And what I'm talking about here specifically is when people have identities around conditions that they might have, or where you say, I am depressed rather than I'm experiencing depression or whatever the thing might be. And lots kind of belittle depression. That's similar to the idea of early. If you keep giving that energy, you make it worse, right? It's the same thing, right?

[00:42:08] Well, you focus on, well, you resist, persist, you know, energy flows by attention, goes, all that. And it's so true, right? There are so many things in the universe which are basically pointing towards the same thing. Maybe that's it. It's a deeper level of change, I think, for me to be able to let go of things quicker because I think what it is, sorry to just finish this point, is that I feel like I'm someone who my friends have said, you know, I'm like a loyal friend, right? I'm a loyal, not like a dog, but in a good way around, just really loyal. Labrador. Yeah.

[00:42:36] Like I'm really loyal to people and things. And I think it's about my word. Maybe that every time I'm quitting something or changing something or changing job, whatever, I feel like maybe that maybe part of my identity is being challenged because I'm someone that sticks with things. And I think that's where that quote I originally came up with, where we feel it's like a sign of strength to keep holding on to things, but actually it's often a sign of strength to let go of things. And I think that's a reframe that I still need to embody.

[00:43:06] And yet, you're one of the people I would hold up as an example for someone who's done it brilliantly because paradoxically, you had an identity when I first met you of being this person in the city working for London Stock Exchange. And it would be very easy, as most people do, by the way, Harry, they embody the identity of being in the city, working in finance, making money, doing well. It's what we make an assumption. It's what certain people want. Or you have a group of friends that do the same thing.

[00:43:32] And actually, sometimes for a lot of people, it's the fear that stops them from doing that. So when you remove the fear, what do you want to do? And for you, I think it would have released a lot of or released everything for you. Any desperation for trying to stay where you were is gone because you can suddenly become less needy, become less fearful. Fearful in different ways because you've got to create an income in this new direction. But most people never take the step that you did because they're too fearful. And I would argue that in that instance, where the identity no longer served you, which I think is a critical component here, you shifted.

[00:44:02] And yes, it brought with it a load more fears in different ways financially and where's it going to go and all these other things. But it also released you of your desperation in many other ways of things where you weren't living an identity true to yourself. It wasn't serving you. And you followed that path. And there is no life without fear. So there's going to be fear in any decision you made. But it would have been the easier path for you would have been the one that I think most people take, which is, well, I'm doing it now. Honestly, I actually don't think I ever had an identity of being a city.

[00:44:31] But I never felt, I think it was going back to Robert Dilt's neurological levels of change. I was probably on a behavior and capabilities level. I was behaving and I was in the city and doing the thing, but I never felt an identity of a normal worker. Like there's a reason why when I finished with a first class degree, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I went traveling for three years, came back. I worked in a pub. Then I worked as a temp in a law firm for a while. And then I worked in the London Stock Exchange.

[00:44:56] But in all those experiences, I never identified with the role I was playing and I never felt that I was that kind of person. And so I don't know that I had to shift identity deeply. I think it resonated more when I started getting into personal development and understanding different concepts and teaching these concepts. That feels more like me than those other worlds ever did. So I don't know that I had to make a big leap. I mean, you have to make a leap in terms of changing. I don't know.

[00:45:24] Maybe because it felt so naturally to you. But I remember, because we've been friends that long, you shedding, I used that word deliberately, shedding almost friendship groups. You talk about being a loyal Labrador a moment ago. They weren't part of your new identity or they wouldn't come with you. And you would have brought them with you, to be fair, but they chose not to. And you had to almost let them go to embody your new identity in that space. That was kind of challenging because like I said, I'd quit on everything except a certain like friendships.

[00:45:52] But like I've mentioned before, after a few years, I understood and I could re-examine this idea of, you know, moving friends into different categories as it were. So even though someone may have been what I call a five-day friend in the past, maybe they're now a five-hour friend or a five-minute friend. And it still doesn't get our friend, but they just changed role in my life at that moment in time. And then they can change back as well. Right. So I think that was a big aha moment for me, probably about three or four years after

[00:46:21] that initial kind of conflict internally. I do think we just ask about tricks that we have or hacks or terrible words, but what are some tools or strategies that can help people let go? I think we both do this quite well, actually. But I do think acceptance creates freedom. Like the idea that I always say to people, one of the biggest lessons I give anyone is life, the journey I've had, life is hard. And I think the sooner you realize that life is difficult, it just gets a little bit easier. There's a level of acceptance. Funnily enough, I said to my wife, I kid you not, it must have been 24 to 40 hours ago,

[00:46:51] it was the last couple of days. I'm always waiting for the next thing to happen now. I don't want to anticipate it, but it's like life is going quite well for us at the moment. My dad was two or three years ago. And the order of life means at some point there's going to be something that occurs that we're going to have to deal with. And that's not me trying to be like the sort of Damocles and suddenly want something negative to happen. But there's an acceptance that I find acceptance does create freedom. It does. It allows you to go day by day a little bit easier rather than getting stuck in my imagined future. And this goes back to the fear piece.

[00:47:20] Often the time we're imagining futures and the fears and things. But most of the times they never happen. Like they're not true of the present moment. We imagine this might happen. We imagine this might happen. It doesn't get there. And they are different. Imagining something terrible to happen is different for me accepting that something may happen in the future. I don't know what that is. I'm not going to try and imagine it. I just accept that life is tricky. So let's enjoy every day. Let's try and be in the present. Let's get these projects done. Let's enjoy the journey as much as possible. And if nothing does happen, great. But if it does, then that acceptance can create some freedom for us.

[00:47:49] I think it's inevitable. And I think that's actually a really key thing. Because I think I'm often having, whether it's a house issue or maintenance issue somewhere, right? I got to the point where I'm like, okay, I'm just waiting for that. There will be another thing. So let me enjoy the good time. Because I know they don't last, right? And actually, as you were speaking, it just reminded me of another quote or another famous saying from one of my favorite movies, but where the character says, and you'll know

[00:48:16] the character as soon as I'm sure I'll say the line, but life isn't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and very hard place. And it will kick you when you're down or something along those lines, right? Rocky Balbauer talking to his son. Your favorite movie, I know. Yeah. Oh, well, actually, I'm going to go, side note, I'm going to go and see Sylvester Sloan on the 3rd of October in London. He's releasing a new book or his memoir. So I'm going with a couple of friends that I've not seen for a while. We're all into like the Rocky sagas. And so we're going to see him at some in conversation along with about 1500 other people.

[00:48:46] But anyway, I like that. And also reminds me of Tony Robbins talking about life always having problems because the only people that have problems are the ones in the graveyard, right? There's always going to be something that is going to stimulate you to kind of have to take action in some way, shape or form. And so I think kind of knowing that is actually half the battle because, yeah, it doesn't mean you're necessarily always prepared for it and it's going to suck. But you know that in a way, it's the ride of life. It's the journey of life. And we can use different metaphors to describe life.

[00:49:14] And some people might say, you know, life is always going to throw challenges. Or I like to think of life as a bit of a mission or an adventure. And adventures and missions always do throw out challenges. I think accepting that is a good thing because you can't control that when that happens. But what we can control is maybe how resilient we are or how prepared we are, how adaptable we are. So I think that's a good point for sure. I agree with everything you've just said. Like even when I'm coaching with clients around fear, it's not about trying to build a life where fear never appears.

[00:49:43] It's about being someone who doesn't run from fear when it does turn up. Like it says there's an acceptance of it. And it's not about trying to... A lot of the time we have things that make us stop or make us worried. Like I need to earn... The fear comes in. I need to earn enough money. I need to gain enough status. I need to do this, that and the other. But actually, that's part of that reframing piece, that letting go. It's like you just need more... It's not about having enough money. It's about having more reassurance in that example, right? Who are your friends around you? What is money to you? What makes you wealthy?

[00:50:12] And I don't necessarily mean in a financial sense. If state is really important to you, what are the outcomes you can control? And don't be fearful you'll never get promoted. Instead, focus on what's in front of you and accept that may or may not happen. But what can you control to help you get there at the moment? And what are the steps you can take to get there as well? And I think otherwise, we just live in this space of it'll never happen. And they become these beliefs. And I use your beliefs saying... I use it in my presentation, by the way. I'll have the BS on either side. I had a... I'll go back to this for those of you listening who haven't seen it. Beliefs is the word lie in the middle. But that's quite well known.

[00:50:41] But the BS bit, I'm always a chibi to Harry. Surrounded by BS beliefs. And in my presentation, I had little cartoon pop-ups with a bull and a pile of poo that popped up, just to make the point really clear. And we've just got a bit of a laugh. I normally do it PG-related. I say big stories. I don't know what you think BS is, but I call it big stories. Well, yeah, I'm probably giving that bit away. When that comes from you, I'll always attribute it. But that's probably a good way to finish. Like, we've been marring on for an hour about a subject that... We've been chatting for a while, yeah. Impacts everybody. It is.

[00:51:11] It's something that I'm very conscious of, because I feel like I don't act quick enough when I know something has run its course or when I need to take action on things. So it's something I've, you know, been working on for a while, but more actively focused on and thinking, okay, let me, you know, when something is done, let me just let it be done and move on. And then even if I then know what the other opportunities are that I'm saying no to, they will then present themselves once I've said no to the original thing. Yeah, always let go of what doesn't serve you.

[00:51:41] I'll go back very briefly, because I'm conscious of time, to that car example earlier. The person in the car, however, whatever story you create, they have no idea. They're out there in their own lives. If you carry that anger and you don't let it go for the rest of the day, the only product that anger is serving is you. Like, it's the person that cut you up is not thinking about you enough. They don't even know who you are. So you're angry with the world. You're angry with the morning. You're angry that this could have happened. It didn't. Got to let it go because it's costing you.

[00:52:08] If it's not serving you, do your best to let it go. I know it's easier said than done, but I hope there's a few tools and strategies today that will help. Yeah, let it go, as they say in Frozen. And also, we haven't shared it with the listeners, but I think I shared it with you. That song that someone created about for me on AI, it was all about let it go. That song, actually. And then I was listening to it yesterday morning after my meditation and kind of meditating on the words within that song as well. But it's a lesson for me to let things go as well. Good stuff. Well, Harry, it's been a pleasure. I'm confident of time.

[00:52:37] Thank you for bearing on because we should be fishing up our seven, but I did turn up late. We've talked enough about my lateness on today's show already. Listeners, thank you for following us. Do remember to check us out on Instagram at mindful underscore past underscore podcast on Instagram or something along those lines. Thank you, Vicky, for helping us with the channel. But most importantly, share the episode with your colleagues and friends. Let's get people listening. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And we'll see you very soon. Cheers. Cheers.