[00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to or welcome back to the Metta Performance Podcast. We have a banger today. You know, on the Metta Performance Podcast, we explore the stories and habits that people have developed that lead to sustainable high performance. And I am super excited as well as Holly in that we have Carrie Jackson, who wrote one of the most amazing mindset books I have read.
[00:00:24] I told her it was a two highlighter book because I was taking so many notes and highlighting so much stuff. It's a great book, just not only to learn how the mind works, but it gives you practical tools that you can use to work on your mindset to keep it strong, but also if you hit one of those plateaus.
[00:00:44] So I'm super excited that Carrie has agreed to join us today. And rather than mess up her bio, I'm going to let you, Carrie, explain who Carrie is and give us as much detail as you want. Yeah. So my name is Carrie Jackson, and I'm a certified mental performance consultant.
[00:01:03] So I work in the field of sports psychology and have been in the field of sports psychology for over 20 years, I think 22 or 23 years now, and specializing and working on the mindset of performance, whether it's, you know, I get the opportunity to work with like any, you know, athletes from recreational high school athletes to elite and professional athletes competing at national and international levels. And so it's so fun for me to get to work with just people in all different levels.
[00:01:32] But I do specialize in working with endurance athletes. There's some of my favorite, don't tell anyone. I love my, like, love, love working with endurance athletes and specialize in that. And then also specialize in working with injured athletes coming back into either transitioning out of sport or coming back into their sport and working on some of the things that come up for helping get the psychological readiness to match the physical readiness. When you're kind of recovering as an injured athlete.
[00:01:58] So I just, I really have dedicated my career to helping people perform to their potential and not just like optimal performance, but I think of for me, a big piece too is that they're also enjoying the process, right? Because sometimes, especially with my endurance athletes, like when you dedicate that much time to your sport there and then you start to have expectations of your performance.
[00:02:22] Oftentimes there will be moments when some are want to turns into a have to, like I really want to train and I want to do this race. And then suddenly it feels like the perception of control has shifted. And now, like, I have to do this and I'm dreading the race and putting pressure on ourselves. So for me, it's not only like, you know, how do we remove some of the barriers to get you to perform to your actual potential? But how do we also make sure you're enjoying the process? Yeah, that's great.
[00:02:49] One of the things that I love, there's a concept in your book and it reminded me of the parable of the two wolves. The good wolf and the bad wolf. That's right. You know, which one is going to going to survive and it's the one you feed. And so you've developed this concept of feeding the athlete. And I'd love for you to explain what that means to you and why it's such a critical concept for sustaining high performance. I love that you picked up the two wolf, right? Like that it's very similar to that. Yes.
[00:03:17] And so all of us, right, as athletes, we have a little monster on one shoulder and a little athlete on the other. And whichever one you feed is the one that gets stronger. And it's very, many of us are very good at feeding the monster. And it's got a nice healthy diet, right? Of thoughts. And so a way to think of it too is like the, you know, the athlete is like, you know, your thoughts that are around you. It's like your excitement and your desire and what you're looking forward to.
[00:03:42] And oftentimes the monster is like full of our fears and doubts and things that are telling us maybe we're not good enough. Right. And so one of the reasons it's really easy to feed the monster is because our brain has a natural negativity bias that is baked in. And so because we are wired for survival above all else, every piece of information that comes into the brain comes through the amygdala. It comes through like kind of the primal part of our brain so that we're constantly assessing threat, no threat, threat, no threat.
[00:04:11] And because of this negativity bias, our brain is more likely to tune into things that are a potential threat. And what's interesting about this process is that now in our current culture, and this is particularly important for athletes, is that we not only is our central nervous system impacted if there's like an actual physical threat where it's like, right, like I'm being chased down by a lion.
[00:04:36] We also, the central nervous system reacts in the same way if it's a psychological threat, right? Meaning like the monster's like, you know, are you sure you want to say that goal out loud? Because what if you don't accomplish it? And then you're going to be really embarrassed. And what if you're actually not good enough? Like though, that's the monster talking. And so what's interesting about that is that its job is to protect you, right? And so, but sometimes it protects you to the point where it goes into overdrive a little bit, right?
[00:05:05] Where it's like actually, like it wants to protect you almost at the expense of success. Because even though it wants you to succeed more than that, it wants you to not fail. And those are two different things. Yeah, that's great. And Holly and I have talked about, you know, times when athletes will actually sabotage their event or their training. And it's, you know, because they've set this goal and that thought of that protection of like, what if I fail? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:35] And it's, and they don't always realize that that's what they're doing either. Like that's how incredible the brain is, is that it like, it's really sneaky and does such a good job of justifying like, oh, well, you know, I know I'm in my taper week, but I'm just going to get on one more workout. Because like, you know, whatever it is, or, or like my cyclist sometimes where they go, they, right. They have this thing where they chase the county line where it's like, oh, I know I'm in my base miles, but like there's the county line and I don't want that guy to beat me. Right.
[00:06:03] So like, and in the moment it feels like, oh, this is, I'm in service of my athletic self, but really it's, it's not, it's like a sort of a way that brain has justified doing something that actually sabotages, like so that you always have a reason why you didn't do as well as you could have. And I think a lot of times we're just avoiding the difficult emotions. Like we don't want to feel disappointed. We don't want to feel frustrated. We don't want to feel those feelings.
[00:06:32] So really like for me, a big part of the work is like, how do we like accept all the feelings? Like there are no good or bad feelings. There are just feelings that are, it's information. And if we avoid disappointment at all costs, we're also going to avoid joy at all costs and success at all costs. Yes, that's right. And, you know, you're bringing up so many concepts that I think are interesting for our listeners who are likely athletes, endurance athletes primarily, but also coaches, right?
[00:07:01] Because your books that are so brilliantly written, you know, speaking to the athlete, but also I think you're such a great resource and reference for coaches too, as we help guide and lead our athletes. And with like self-sabotage, we can be so primed for anticipating failure. I'm air quoting, anticipating failure that the thought of success can become just as foreign. That's right. Yeah.
[00:07:29] Have you experienced that working with athletes where maybe they're comfortable with not seeking failure or self-sabotage, but maybe they're also not totally ready to accept success? Yes. I think that, and I think that one of the things I see with that in particular is that sometimes we don't, like, athletes don't know how to move into that identity in a way where it's like, this is the level athlete I am. And this is what I can expect of myself. And this is where I sort of belong.
[00:07:57] Almost like an athletic caste system in a way, right? Like where I'm, so it really does call on you to, I think of it sometimes of like putting on a costume, right? Where you're like, and maybe it doesn't quite fit and you're like, oh my God, this is tight and this isn't me and I should probably just take this off because this, who am I to think that I could be this, right? So I think sometimes that's at play too when people are sort of almost avoiding success, that there's a fear there too, right?
[00:08:23] So, I mean, in general, we're always moving towards something or away from something. And so sometimes when people are like, don't know how to move into the possibility of succeeding, sometimes it's, you know, we kind of look at like, well, what is it that you're trying to avoid? Are you trying to avoid disappointment? Are you trying to avoid pressure, right? Because sometimes people have an assumption that like, oh, once I do really well, now I'm always going to have that expectation. And what are people going to think of me?
[00:08:52] And so kind of recognizing that. So sometimes I'll gently have that conversation with my athletes, like they're usually not thinking about you. Like that's just, that's our brain and telling us like, I am very important and everyone's paying attention when really they're all wrapped up in their own crap and like, they're not paying attention to you at all.
[00:09:08] But so there's just like being, having the opportunity to sort of examine some of these narratives that we have and don't even realize that have been created and maybe our old scripts that we need to revisit and kind of examine and go, oh, is that still true? Do I want that to be true? Is it possible to do something else? And how can I move into the discomfort and be okay with that and not see that as a bad thing, but see that as an opportunity so that we go, okay, here we go. Let's dive on.
[00:09:38] Let's jump off the diving board and see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. I keep thinking I'm going to create a t-shirt, just sell some merch. It just says, nobody cares. That's good. Nobody cares. I would buy that. Nobody, nobody cares that you came in 10th in that one cyclocross race. Yes. For a lot of folks may not understand what, even what mental skills training is. Yeah.
[00:10:04] I'd love for you to just kind of describe what that looks like in practice, you know, for whether you want to choose an athlete or, or someone in a business in their personal life. Yeah. Yeah. So mental skills training is, you know, being able to learn the skills that have to do with the mindset of performance. Right. So like, and all kinds of performance, right? Like you just mentioned, like it, that perform, we perform in many different ways, right? We perform, some of us are musicians and we perform that way.
[00:10:31] We also perform just in our conversations with people, right? Like you go out in the world and you're having a conversation. That's a type of performance in a way. We don't think about it in that way, but that's, you know, for, especially if you're feeling nervous or apprehensive or uncomfortable, like, then it feels like this is a performance in a way. And in the business world, right? So there, because of the way that the brain just naturally works, there are times when we might feel anxious or nervous or apprehensive.
[00:11:00] And there's certain tools that we need in order to kind of downregulate, right? What's happening physiologically. But also like to recognize what, what thoughts do I need to believe in which thoughts do I not really need to believe? Because you don't have to believe every thought that comes into your head, but we don't realize that. Right. So, so mental skills training really taps into all of the aspects of performance that impact the outcome that happened right in between your ears, right? Like that are happening in with your mindset.
[00:11:29] But it's also like, you know, so I need, when you think about like, I'm experiencing burnout or I'm avoiding setting certain types of goals, or I really want to go after this goal, but I keep talking myself out of it. I have performance pressure or performance anxiety before my sport. And I'm burning all these matches before the race even starts. So those types of things have to do with the psychology of, of performance.
[00:11:55] And oftentimes I think what happens is people are like, oh, here's some things, you know, oh, you should work on this. Or that's like, you know, you need to do things to help with your motivation or you just need to focus, right? Like how many coaches have said, just focus. Like, okay, great. How do I do that? Like, so that's the mental training piece is like, here are the actual tools to be able to affect change in the areas that you're wanting to improve on. So really it's just like your physical skills, right?
[00:12:22] So you, you know, you have your coaches that are helping you with your training plans, or you might, you know, go to a training camp and learn different techniques and motor skills, right? Like, so you have the physical skills that you're working on and you learn the skill and then you, you know, refine the skill and practice the skill and then put into action in on race day. Same thing with mental skills. It's the same exact thing. So it's like, oh, okay, here's the skill. I need to learn that skill and reinforce it in a setting that's easier to learn, maybe, and more comfortable.
[00:12:51] And then like, how do I transfer that to training? How do I transfer that to race day? Because those are, you know, it's a different, you're kind of leveling up the skill in that way, but you have to learn it and practice it in order to, to be able to use it in the moment when you really need it, which is just like physical training, right? Like you can't expect to train for a week and be like, all right, done. I'm ready for my marathon. Let's go. Like, it doesn't work that way. Like, that's right. A lot of our listeners will be familiar with us saying it sets and reps.
[00:13:17] So sets and reps in the actual gym on the track, on the road, and then sets and reps in the mind gym. Nice. Yes. Well, they go together. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Got to get stronger and build that muscle. That's right. Well, and especially as you build, you know, as you up your game, whether it's, you know, going from novice to pro or just taking bigger challenges, the things you're going to, the adversity you face is going to change.
[00:13:46] And so you do have to continually work on that to address that. Yeah. There was a thing that I'm going to paraphrase what you said, but it was just about dealing with things outside of your control. And you said something to the effect of focusing things outside of your control gives your power away. And that was like, first time I'd heard it phrased like that, and it was so powerful. And I'd love for you to kind of tell us more about what you meant by that. Yeah.
[00:14:16] So one of the exercises I like to do with my clients is we'll like grab a piece of paper, draw a line right down the middle of the page and create two columns. And one side's in control and one side's out of control. And we just pull it out, like thinking about this upcoming event, what are some of the things that are in your control and what are some of the things out of your control? And so we'll kind of list all those out. And it's really interesting to get to do it with people because they always notice maybe something different. Like we might start and they're like, they can't think of anything in their control.
[00:14:44] And then by the end, they're realizing, oh, wow, there's a lot more in my control than I thought. Or we'll get all the out of control there and they'll look and they'll see themes of like, oh, man, I really get hooked by these things that no matter how much I worry about those things, there's nothing I can do to change them. So I'm spending so much time and energy, right? So that's that idea of like I'm giving my power away because I'm spending all this time and energy camped out on the out of control side when there's nothing I can do about that.
[00:15:12] So how do I shift to something that's in my control, right? And like get that autonomy back and that like belief that you do still have things that you can influence that are going to have a big impact on your performance. And oftentimes when we're kind of camped out in the in control, it means we're in the present moment and not time traveling, right? So when you're out of control, oftentimes it's, you know, you're focused on things out of your control.
[00:15:37] It has to do with our worries and doubts and what ifs and if we camp out there, right? Versus going, okay, well, that's out of my control, but what is in my control in relation to them? Like, how can I prepare for that? What can I do in order to set myself up for success? Yeah, I had this concept of like we had this battery. You can kind of use the whole Garmin concept of the body battery, but, you know, you've got a finite amount of energy to give on things.
[00:16:06] And so that's what I found really powerful about it gives your power away. Like, yeah, yeah, you have this much energy. You need to spend it on spending on the things you control. That's right. Yeah. Like four quarters a day, right? You get a dollar a day to spend on energy. You sure you want to give up a quarter of it to that? Like, yeah, maybe that's not a good idea. And a lot of that is a choice, but we don't recognize it as that. And that's part of mental training, too, is recognizing that those are choices.
[00:16:35] And how do you keep your focus tuned into the things that are actually impactful to your performance and tune out the rest? I'm curious in your experience, a lot of how we focus on Meta at Meta is sport, work, and life, right? That's kind of part of our phrase and what we repeat often because we believe that the lessons learned in sport are transferable, right? Yes. Into life, into work.
[00:16:59] And I'm curious, have you seen this with your clients, with your athletes, that the skills that you help them practice and develop and build that, you know, sets and reps and build that muscle? Do you see that transfer into how they show up at work in their personal life? Yeah. Yeah. And it's so fun. It's actually one of my favorite parts of the work that I do. So oftentimes, right, people come to me and they're coming through the sport door, right? Like that's the door they sort of enter. And then we'll do that work. And then I love it.
[00:17:27] Like every once in a while, someone will come back and be like, oh my gosh, Carrie, I did it. Like, you know, I did all the stuff that we were doing and I did it over here. Like, and it's for either a difficult conversation they had to have with their coach or like a job interview or something like that. And they're like, I did it. It totally worked. And so it's been really, I mean, really, they are life skills that apply to many different parts of life. Whether it's like, how do I make sure that I'm not just saying these are my values, but living my values, right? That applies to all of it.
[00:17:55] Like, you know, how do I make sure I'm showing up my full authentic self and feeling grounded in whatever the moment is that's calling on me in this moment? You know, it could even be like, you know, people that have to give like my, you know, my daughter's getting married and I have to give a speech at the wedding and I'm terrified. Right? Like, like those are all types of performance. I had one that this is going to be funny, but like she was headed to college and she was getting recruited and she had to call coaches and she was terrified. Absolutely terrified to pick up the phone and call a coach.
[00:18:24] So we worked on that. So it really does, they're absolutely transferable. And, and what's great about that fact is that means there are many opportunities to practice the skills. So, and not only to have an impact, but like there are opportunities to practice the skills in other areas of life and you're flexing that muscle. And that's also going to help you in your sport or vice versa, right? That it's, they, we don't exist.
[00:18:53] None of those pieces exists in a vacuum. So, you know, when, when you work on that skill in one area, sometimes I do have to help athletes like recognize that they can transition it, like build a bridge between the two where they realize, oh wait, I'm doing this here, but I'm not doing it here. Maybe I could do that here. Like, so sometimes they don't always recognize that, but, but you very much can build a bridge between all of those and go, let's walk this skill over there and see how it works. Beautiful. I love that. I love that too.
[00:19:21] Is there a, cause I think sometimes people often forget the tools they have in their toolbox. Yes. Yeah. And it's, unfortunately, sometimes it's not until after, you know, their race doesn't go well or their presentation doesn't go well that you get the debrief and you're like pointing back to other examples.
[00:19:43] So how do you help folks know not only that they've, they have developed these skills, but also knowing when, which one to grab out of their toolbox? Yeah, that's a great question. So for the first, like one, one thing I do often ask is like, is there, you know, is this something that you struggle with in other areas of your life? So we, we look at like, Ooh, is there another place you do have this? Like, what are the times when you haven't experienced it? And then that lets you know, like, oh, okay. There were times when like, I felt really confident going in.
[00:20:11] Let's see, what were you doing for yourself? And sometimes they will just forget like, oh my gosh, I used to do this. And then we'll bring something back in the mix that they just forgot about. And then sometimes they're like, well, why did I forget about that? Like I, that used to use it all the time. And it's just natural. Like sometimes you're like, oh, we're doing really good. And then you like, you don't take the medicine anymore. Right. So to speak, you're like, I don't need that anymore. And then forget about it. And then sometimes I think we just like are bombarded with so much information. This is my own, like, there's no science to back this up. Maybe there is, I don't know.
[00:20:40] But like, I feel like there has to be like information that falls out of my brain to make room for other information. So like, I don't know, that one just fell out of your brain and we're going to grab it and put it back in there. But there, I love your other, the other part of that question because it's another part of the skill. Right. So the way it works when we're thinking about mental training is like, first, can you, can you like reflect and see the moment where maybe you needed to do something different? Like, oh yeah.
[00:21:07] So after my race, I can kind of look back and go, ah, that's the point where things shifted. Then the next piece is like, can I see it in the moment? And that's a big deal. That's a big part of the skill. Like, oh, in the moment, can I recognize this is the moment? And then it's, do you know which tool to use in that moment? Do you know what you need in that moment? And then it's, do you do it? Right. Because sometimes we just stay in the land of good ideas and don't actually take it to the land of action where it's like, oh yeah, I should do this. And then you don't do it.
[00:21:37] And I, you know, so I, I think it's important to know too, like, I, you know, I'm an expert in this. I do this all that. It's like, I'm working on this every day with people. And sometimes I'll even do that where I'm like, you know, don't recognize until later. Like, oh, I, okay, maybe I should actually do it. And it might, and every time I do that, I'm like, shit, look at that. It totally worked. Like, duh. You know, so it's, so there is a process, right?
[00:22:01] It's not just about like knowing the moment or even knowing what to do, but like, well, which it's knowing what to do and knowing which tool and then actually doing it. And so for me, that's why I like to give people multiple tools because especially with my endurance athletes, like sometimes you'll reach into your tool belt, right? For a tool, you're really feeling it. Every, your legs are screaming at you. You're, you know, kind of going back and forth with like, maybe I should just walk. Maybe I should just quit the sport altogether. Like, so, and you pull out a tool that always works for you.
[00:22:29] And for some reason that tool is not working right now, right? So you need other tools, you need a, you know, you need options. You need a wrench and a hammer and a screwdriver because, you know, maybe the screwdriver worked last time, but now you need a hammer. So it's, it's good to have options. And it's, I like to give people different tool because the other thing is like, we all have different operating manuals and things that we resonate with, you know, like ideas or ways of doing something that work better for us than others.
[00:22:59] So I might have, you know, a couple tools and have one athlete that like loves that tool and it works incredible. And another athlete that's like, that didn't work for me. Okay. Let's figure out, okay, that didn't work. That's good information. Like, let's figure out what does work for you. What's another tool that, you know, is, it achieves the same thing, but in a different manner. Mm-hmm. And I love the, the framework of tools in the toolbox. Yeah.
[00:23:25] And if our listeners are thinking, well, I've never really talked to a sports psychologist and things really aren't bad. Yeah. But, you know, by my perspective, but could they be better? Right. And to the pursuit of fulfillment, right. You had mentioned when we first started talking that the, the path matters, not just the goal. That's right. Your experience matters. And I always like to say the path is the goal. Yes. Yeah. Because all we have is, is the moment.
[00:23:51] So if people are thinking, wow, you know, love what you're saying. Is this applicable to me? Right. What are some of like the most common or maybe most impactful influential tools that you work on with individuals, sport or life wise, that you tend to see a lot of traction that either make the biggest impact or the stickiest or tools that you go to as like your go-to. You know, foundational tools. Yes. Yeah.
[00:24:20] One is definitely the in control, out of control. Like a lot of my clients, I'm working on that. Another is a big on our internal dialogue and the thought and our self-talk and the thoughts that we are thinking, you know, has a very big impact on our feelings of confidence, on the goals we choose to set, on, you know, our motivation. So that there, and there's a bunch of different tools I have for that, depending on what's happening of like, how do we look at the thoughts that you're having?
[00:24:46] Because sometimes they're just automatic thought patterns and it's just habitual and you're not really intentional about those thoughts. So how do we get, you know, that's a thought you're having, but is it really true? Like, let's examine, like, let's get intentional with the thinking. So a lot of different pieces around that. And I think one of the reasons the self-talk is so important is because a lot of it comes down to where are you choosing to focus?
[00:25:06] And so that is a big piece that sort of underlines, underlines a lot of the work that I do is, is that, is like, where am I choosing to focus and where do I need to focus in this moment in order to get through this moment successfully? So one with my endurance athletes that I use with almost every, two actually, that I use with almost every single endurance athlete that I work with is the pre-performance plan and critical moments. And there's, there's actually some overlap there.
[00:25:36] So the pre-performance plan is like, oftentimes we think about, you know, the race starts when the gun goes off and you've got like your fueling plan and you even have your race strategy. You may even have some of those mental training tools dialed in that, you know, you're going to use when you need them. But we don't always do that same thing for the lead up. And so I like to think of it like the race starts when you start, you know, prepping for the race and thinking about the race in a more like, oh, it's a couple days away, that kind of thing.
[00:26:04] And how do we make sure that we are being intentional with that lead up in terms of not just what I need to do to be prepared, but the mental preparation and like, you know, ideally, how do I want to feel? So I break it into different blocks of time and the athlete gets to figure out what those blocks are because we all sort of have different, we hold time a little bit different in our perception of it.
[00:26:30] So some people like to do, okay, I'm going to do the night before, morning of, hour before, 30 minutes start line. And others want to do it more like car ride over, warm up, right? So people, but you identify these blocks of time. And for each block, you're asking yourself, well, what do I need to be doing during that time to be optimally prepared? So it might be like, oh, I need to make sure I'm hydrating, I'm pinning on numbers, that kind of stuff.
[00:26:55] And then for each of those blocks, you're asking yourself, ideally during this moment, how do I want to feel? In my most ideal world, what's the emotion I want to be feeling in this moment? Is it calm? Is it excited? Is it grounded? Is it, you know, whatever that is for you? And then identify, okay, if that's how I want to feel, what do I need to be thinking in order to feel the way I want to feel? And the thought is just like one sentence, right?
[00:27:21] Like it's a directive for your brain or your mindset so that in a moment when you're feeling pressure or you're feeling stressed, you can pull out your pre-performance plan that you've written out and go, okay, when I was the same person, I identified that this is the most important thing. So I'm just going to focus on this in this moment. So that's a big one. And then critical moments is another really significant one where we're identifying what are the different critical moments of your race?
[00:27:49] And a lot of them will be the same for every athlete, but then some are unique to the individual where they might be like, when that person passes me, that's a critical moment, right? So, but we're identifying what are those moments and where does your focus need to be in order to get through that moment successfully? And then what's the trigger, like what's the cue that's going to help you remember to keep your focus where it needs to be when it needs to be there, right?
[00:28:18] So it's like, really, it's like a lot of the tool that I'm using help athletes learn how to be the boss of their brain instead of being bossed around by your brain. Yeah, the great thing about, and that's all in the book. So gone by the book. What's great about it, especially for someone like me who like, I love a good routine. Yes.
[00:28:41] And I actually, as I was reading the book, I had a race back when Holly was coaching me, not her fault. I had a really bad day. And so I applied the, the, uh, the pre and the, and the critical moments. I did a retro of that race. And I realized like, well, if I'd had this, like I would have known, cause I, I mean, if you give me a roadmap and some tasks, I love it.
[00:29:08] And I was like, man, this would be a really powerful tool for me when I got to that moment of those critical moments where I was not having a good time. Self-talk was horrible and I was grasping for straws on what to do. And so it's, to me, that was a great, especially for those of us who are routine driven, it really does give you a way to just work through the, the, the warmup and getting to the start line. And then facing those moments.
[00:29:38] Cause a lot of people don't talk about, like they go in there, like everything's going to be great. And it's like, well, you need to work through the negatives too. Like what happens if you get a flat tire? Do you know how to do that? Do you know how to change that tire? You know, how quickly can you do it? Do you have all the equipment you need? I think people avoid that sometimes. Cause they're like, oh, if I, you know, they think, if I think about it, then I'm going to make it happen. Like, no, no, that's cute. You think you're that powerful, but that's not actually how it works. It's like, you know, and that it's okay.
[00:30:07] You, we want to be prepared for those things, right? You don't want the first time that you're even thinking about it to be out on the race court, right? Like just like you, the first time, if you're a triathlete, the first time you go swim in open water, you do not want that to be on race day, right? Like you want to have done, done some preparation around that so that, you know, like, oh, okay. If this happens, this is how I'll address it. So then it's seamless, right? Like it, you shorten the reaction time when you do that, when you prepare.
[00:30:33] So I love that you said that, but when you were talking, it reminded me of when I was first, my husband now, when we were first dating and he kind of found out what I did. And he's a, he was doing golf tournaments at the time. He's a really great golfer. And he's like, you know, and he started to read my book. And then I was like, I don't know if I should do any of this. He really wanted me to do some stuff and work with it. And I was like, that's not how that was. I can't. And then I was like, all right, I'll just go ahead and we'll do the critical moments. We'll sit down and do that together and I'll help you prep for your event. And so we did it. And he was like, my God.
[00:31:03] And the way he said this was like, I never heard anyone else say it this way. And it was like, oh, I think you're right. That he was like, you take the mystery out of mental training. Like that's the P where people kind of talk about it. You know, it's important and you know about mindset and stuff and you and it, but it's, it's not magic. Right. Like, and you take the mystery out of it. And like, this is what you actually do. So that was, and I think you're right.
[00:31:26] It works really well for people who dig the routines and like, and that, that was such an important part for me of on top of your game and also of rebound. My second book is just, I didn't want to just give people good ideas. I wanted to give them how to, the, you know, how to do it. Like here's the playbook for it. This is how you actually work on, you know, motivation or confidence or, you know, whatever it is that you're working on. Like this is how, what it looks like to work on this skill. I think that's such an important roadmap.
[00:31:55] I mean, because athletes almost by nature are enjoy being directed, right? Good rule followers. We like to know the rules and follow the rules. We can follow a leader, but having a clear guide that can tell us or show us how to develop the skill that's meaningful is really important and such a resource.
[00:32:17] And I think it's, you know, a great intention of rebound book two, which plays off well with your podcast, the injured athletes podcast. Yes. And I've also referred athletes when they've had moments of injury to go find community in a sense there, because I think it is a really great resource of, you know, when an athlete is in, I don't want to say an identity crisis, but when they can't live the identity that is so meaningful to them at that time.
[00:32:46] It can make time slow down, it will be painful. And I think it's great to have a resource. I'm also thinking about coaches, you know, because I'm always flipping back and forth about, you know, like even myself as an athlete, athlete or self as coach. And the skills that you're talking about, and I've coached or I've been coached by world champions, by gold medalists, and they never went anywhere close to these kinds of conversations. Right.
[00:33:15] Maybe they would whisper visualization, but, you know, not get anywhere close to it. And I think, at least in my own experience, you know, endurance athletics, you know, we know what to do, but sometimes having a guide or a champion create the path, encourage us, is still really meaningful. Yes. I encounter a lot of athletes and individuals, clients that are very self-sufficient.
[00:33:43] They're, you know, a consummate, independent individual, and truly they don't need help. But we all know that we get better when we work together and we get better when we bring in guides and support and resources. We know this, you know, being athletes, having been working with a coach. And this is maybe a very long preamble to ask, what do you, what kind of resources do you think could be most valuable for coaches? I just see such a void and such a gap when it comes to coaching education.
[00:34:13] And a lot of resources are for athletes, right? Great. That all needs to be there. And this isn't my way of saying that coaches need to become sports psychologists. No, yeah, but you have a role. Yeah. But we have a role, exactly. And what is, if we're truly taking ownership and responsibility as a professional coach and leading and guiding our clients and our athletes with ethics and in a responsible manner,
[00:34:38] what tools or opportunities do you see as possible for coaching education to be more informed with these kinds of tools? Yeah. You know, what's interesting about that? I think the number, there's a couple things that come to mind. But the number one thing that comes to mind actually is, you know, because oftentimes coaches are also athletes, right? Is to read some of the, like, the literature, like, or even just on top of your game.
[00:35:06] And how do I apply this to my own athletic life? Or how do I apply this to my performance as a coach and see the impact? And so oftentimes, like, I'll mentor people that are just coming into the field to get their certification for a certified mental performance consultant. And one of the things I encourage them to do is, like, to use the tools that you're asking your clients to do because it deepens your knowledge and understanding of it.
[00:35:34] Not only does it help you with buy-in and for yourself, but also when you explain it, people can see the difference of, like, this is something I've done and it works for me. But also, you know, you also know the sticking points and the parts that are hard and the parts that you avoid. And you can then recognize that when that's happening in your clients as well. So you applying it to yourself is kind of, like, part of the educational process that we have an opportunity to do.
[00:36:03] That said, we all like different tools, right? Like, so sometimes, like, I have some clients that, like, love visualization. It works really well. Others, that's not the tool that works for them for different reasons. And so recognizing sometimes that our own preference isn't necessarily what's going to work for someone else. And I've had to do that for myself because visualization doesn't come easy to me. It's hard work. And so sometimes I'll find myself maybe not talking about with an athlete. And then we do.
[00:36:31] And I realize that this is an important tool for this athlete because they do see in visual and in pictures. So the other thing, too, it's funny because I kind of recognized the gap and I keep, like, should I write another book? Like, I don't know if I have. Like, it's a lot of work. But then I ended up creating a mental training course for 80-20 endurance. And the original thought there was for that it was going to be to support coaches. And, like, here are some things that you can do with your clients.
[00:37:02] So because... That's Matt Fitzgerald's company. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's there now. Now they kind of decided to kind of promote it for its coaches or athletes. But when I created it, it was very much for coaches. Like, that was the original intent because I was thinking about doing it on my own. And then I reached out to Matt to be like, do you think this is something that coaches need? Like, I was having different conversations with different coaches I knew. And he said, absolutely. Would you consider doing it with us? And so there is...
[00:37:28] So I do have a course over there that, you know, if you're like, I really recognize that this is an important part of the performance. But what do I, you know, how do I help my athletes with it? And especially, like, you know, some of the places I see with my endurance coaches that where they absolutely can benefit from some of just some really basic, like,
[00:37:51] understanding of, like, the difference between outcome goals and process goals and why outcome goals sometimes create pressure or anxiety and how the focus on performance goals helps you stay in the moment. Or what are some of the tools for what I like to call the psychology of suffering? So you have maybe an athlete that, you know, needs some tools for those moments when they're, they really are, their body's feeling it. And they just need to get through that moment.
[00:38:15] And that has to do with psychology even more than physiology in some of those moments. Or you have an athlete that, like, keeps getting to the finish line and realizing they have more left in the tank and they didn't, they didn't go all out. And what is it that's holding them back? And what are some of those conversations? So there's, you know, there's definitely ways to think about how can I incorporate some of these things into their training so that it becomes part of instead of sort of an add-on. Or an extra.
[00:38:44] Like, this is part, you know, just like that idea of, you know, sport, work, and life. We are mind and body. Like, we are both. And both are part of performance. So how do we support both? And there's ways that you can do that. I also have on TrainingPeaks, there's a free, if you put in the code from 80-20, there's a free mindset code, like a four-week race plan.
[00:39:07] Where it's all, like, in the four weeks, if you're really wanting to dial in your confidence in the four weeks leading up to a race, it's just plug and play. It goes right into your training plan. And you can, like, as a coach, you can just go check it out and be like, ah, how can I use some of these? Just grab those tools and use it. I've even had coaches that, like, work through on top of your game with their clients. Like, you know, let's talk about it together.
[00:39:31] And what's nice about that, I think, that's helpful is that then you have a common language for how to talk about the mental training piece. So, but you're right, like, there is, I mean, I do have colleagues that are working with coaches, but that's definitely been a gap, right, that we're very much more focused on, like, the athlete versus, well, how do we now, how can we get the coaches on board, too, so that we're all reinforcing it? Right, right. Yeah. And create more of, like, a holistic ecosystem. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
[00:40:01] For support. We will link to those resources, by the way. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I wanted to go back to, we were discussing just self-talk, and this is a two-parter, because a lot of the work that I do relative in mindset is a lot about changing the stories that are running around up here and really getting them on paper so they can craft their story and just become an observer.
[00:40:25] So I'm curious how important the words we choose are with self-talk and improving self-talk, but also where's that difference or the line between healthy self-criticism, which leads to important, you know, to improvement. Yeah. And the more debilitating feeding the monster type of self-talk. Yes. Yeah, that's a great question. So for the first part, like, words matter and language matters.
[00:40:53] And so sometimes we're just lazy with the words we're choosing or it becomes an automatic, I shouldn't say lazy, like, sometimes things become an automatic thought pattern, right? And we don't recognize that that's what's happening. But just as one of the examples I'll use sometimes, like, okay, Holly and Michael, don't think about a shark. Think about anything else. Don't think about a shark. Okay. So did anybody think about a shark? Maybe, possibly, right? Yeah. So we don't waste the way that's working. This is how the brain works. The brain, the brain's like, okay, great. Don't think about a shark. Ah, fart.
[00:41:22] I just, I already did it. Like, I already, right? We don't, we skip over don't and we go to the word that's like the action, right? So words matter because it, it directs our focus, right? And it directs how we feel in that moment. And, and it goes in both directions too. But like, so we really do want to put, like, pay attention to, you know, one of the ways I think about it sometimes is I'll, I used to do this exercise when I worked, was working with teams where I'd have them write, you know, like they're different monster versus athlete thoughts.
[00:41:51] I'm like, what's, you know, what's something that you, when you're really hard on yourself, what's a monster thought you have that you say to yourself in that moment? And they like, like, oh, okay. Yeah. I know exactly what that is. Right. And they write it down. And then I go, okay, so you're going to turn to the teammate on your right and you're going to say it to that person. And they go, I could never like, what? No, please don't make me do that, Carrie. And I'm like, yeah, exactly. So why are you so ready to say that to yourself? Something that you feel would never say to the person next to you.
[00:42:21] And then I go, uh-huh. Well, it's not the same, but it is the same. Right. Because your brain's listening. Like that's always an important piece to know. It's like your brain is listening and it believes what you tell it. So you got to really make sure that what you're telling it is something that you want to believe. Right. So words do matter. And I love the self-criticism piece. Right. Because there is a difference between like a thought that sort of a thought that actually comes from your athlete. But maybe we're thinking it comes from the monster.
[00:42:51] Right. So self-criticism, the way that it comes across is very different from one or the other. And I think sometimes one of the differences is when it comes from the athlete, you can be honest with yourself and honest about your shortcomings and things you need to improve. And it doesn't take a hit to your self-worth. Right. So when it's like, oh, this is something I need to do. And it means I'm no good at this and I don't belong. That's coming from your monster.
[00:43:20] Right. Where if you go, man, this is a part of my performance. I really need to improve. Okay. Who do I have in my life that might be able to help me with this? How can I set a goal? Right. So you're moving into the challenge mindset versus a more fear-based mindset with that. And I think the other thing that comes up too sometimes is like there will be people that maybe say, oh, you should never have any negative thoughts. And like, no, I don't know if you're allowed swearing on podcast. That's not how it works. Right.
[00:43:51] Yeah. It's bullshit. Like that is not how it works. And that's like kind of like, you know, entering toxic positivity. And I understand the reason why people say that because words do matter. However, it's not realistic to think you're never going to have a negative thought again. It's not how the brain works. So it's not about not having negative thoughts. It's about how can I catch it and know what to do or how do I hear it and know I don't have to believe it. Like an understanding how the brain works is important with that.
[00:44:19] So you will have some people that are like, don't ever say anything negative to yourself. And one of my, you know, when I was running a lot and I'd be training for something, like one of the things I would say to myself if I was like, you know, I want to stay on the couch and it's rainy or wet outside or whatever. Like one of my personal things is like, you're not made of sugar. Get your ass outside. Let's go. And I was like, okay, let's go. Right. So other people would be like, don't ever say anything negative. You say like, you can do this. And I believe in you. Like, that's not what was going to help me in that moment. That was, and what did help was like, you're not made of sugar. Let's go.
[00:44:50] So, you know, you just have to know what is the impact of the words. Right. So like someone else might say that to themselves and it, and if it feels like you're, you know, you know, it's pounding you down. Right. Like then don't say that. That's not the right thing for you to say. But if you say it and it's like, yes, right. I can do this. I'm a bad ass. What am I doing? Let's go get your gear on. Then it works for you. Yeah. So like nurturing motivation. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:19] There's this list of obnoxious cycling rules that developed years ago, but rule number five is HTFU, harden the F up. Yes, that's right. Yeah. And it's one of those things like, that's not a tool you want to reach for all the time, but sometimes that is the right tool. Yes. Right. Yeah. And that's a big piece, right? Again, like knowing what, when to use which tool. And there are times where that wouldn't be the right tool. And there are times where it very much would be.
[00:45:46] I like to, I don't know if you remember, you know, Jan's voice in the shut up legs. I think it was him that started that whole show. So sometimes I'll, with some of my clients, I'll be, Oh my God, that's great. I didn't even see that. Oh yeah, that's brilliant. You got the poster hanging up. That is so funny. Yeah. So sometimes I'll tell my clients like, shut up brain, like knock it off. Like, let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Nuance between like a voice for motivation that pushes you towards your goals or that inner critic that keeps you from being the best version of yourself. That's right.
[00:46:15] It's nuanced, right? And it can be blurred at times. And Michael's heard me say this, but I often refer to my shitty committee or to my inner critic as my shitty committee lovingly, right? Because there's not just one critic. There is a committee. And knowing, yes, the goal is not to have no negative thoughts, but to be able to control the volume and what you listen to. Yes. And know how to control the volume. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:46:41] Another one I'll do if I catch myself sometimes is my own personal, like, I don't know. Have I shared this with any clients? I can't remember. But like one of my personal ones is I'll be, I'll catch myself saying something to myself and then I'll say, hey, don't talk to my friend Carrie like that. That's not very nice. What else could you say instead? You know, so we need our little, whatever the rituals are that helps us catch it and like go, okay, I recognize that thought for what it is. I don't need to believe that. What do I need to say instead? Because you're right.
[00:47:08] I mean, with the nuance, it's hard to kind of, like the nuance is important. Right. And we don't always recognize like, oh, is this motivation that is based in fear or motivation that's based in desire? Right. And that might still be moving in the direction, but those are very different things. And one is much more likely to sustain you.
[00:47:33] And one is much more likely to lead to, you know, dread and burnout and even potential for quitting your sport. So really recognizing am I moving with the action I'm taking? Am I moving towards something or am I trying to move away from something and look at that? And what would it look like if I allowed myself to move towards something with the possibility of not getting it? And that there's still value in moving towards it, even if I don't get the outcome that I was really hoping for? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:48:02] So we're winding down. So someone's listening. And maybe they're in the middle of like self-doubt, some performance anxiety. What's the one thing you would say they could do today just to start feeding themselves properly? Yes. Yes.
[00:48:20] I think one thing you could do today if you are experiencing that is to take a grab a piece of paper or a notebook or journal and write down a list of I call it stacking the deck. Right. So we want to stack the deck with some feelings of confidence. So what are and you can even pick a number if it helps you. Some people like the structure. Right. Like what are five things that you are proud of yourself for? What are five areas that you've seen yourself improve on?
[00:48:50] What are five of your greatest accomplishments in your sport? What are five of your favorite quotes that make you believe in yourself? Right. And so you just you take, you know, set a timer for 20 minutes and and write all of those things out. And then you have a whole list of evidence that helps counter the monster voice when that comes up. I love that. I love that. Holly, anything else?
[00:49:16] No, I'm just, you know, tying a thread through all of these concepts are simple, but not easy. And that's the power of having a guide, having a coach, having a professional there with you. Yeah. To help you stay disciplined and accountable to the intention of having your mindset be an asset instead of something that holds you back. Yeah. Absolutely. Or hinders your experience. Yeah.
[00:49:45] Yeah. And that you don't have to have hit a breaking point to reach out for that support. That's right. Right. Like that I get every once in a while I have someone like, oh, you're my last resort. And I'm like, oh, okay, let's do this. I'm ready for it. But I wish you would come a little bit sooner. Yeah. That it's like you and that it's not a sign of and then and that reaching out, getting that support doesn't mean that you it's a sign of weakness. We all need that kind of coaching and help and like there's a lot that you're holding on to just in the responsibilities of life.
[00:50:15] And sometimes we need the person that holds the space to work on that specific thing. I even need that. Right. I have more coaches. And like so, you know, it's it's not it doesn't mean like there's something wrong with you because you can't do it on your own. It's the opposite. It's like you're recognizing like this is really a priority. How do I make how do I support myself in that? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. All said. Well, Carrie, this has been amazing.
[00:50:40] We'll post links to both on top of your game and also rebound just so people can get access to your books because I highly recommend them. Holly's a big fan. This is amazing. And I really appreciate the time and all the wisdom that you've shared for us and for those listening. Yes, my absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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