High Achieving Women and Mental Health: The Hidden Cost of Holding It All Together - with Dr. Kelly Dries

[00:00:00] In today's episode, we will be discussing a wide range of topics related to mental health, including self-harm and suicide. If you're in a tender place right now, please take care of yourself and feel free to pause or skip this episode. And if you need support, please reach out to someone you trust or a professional or call the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. You do not have to navigate this alone.

[00:00:26] Welcome to Leadership in Motherhood, the podcast for ambitious, high-achieving women navigating leadership in the boardroom and at home. I'm your host, Leanna Lasky-McGrath, business leader, mom, and certified executive coach. I believe that every woman deserves to create a life and career on her own terms, one that she truly loves. This podcast is here to help you do just that. Let's get started.

[00:00:57] Hi, everyone. Happy May. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is a topic that I believe is so, so important for us to be talking about. So I wanted to create space for a conversation that often goes unseen, especially in the world of high achievers. And I invited Dr. Kelly Dries, a fellow higher ed expat, to have a conversation with me, and she is the perfect person for this conversation.

[00:01:24] She is a Gallup-certified strengths coach and the founder of Dries Coaching and Consulting, where she helps leaders and teams build more sustainable, human-centered ways of leading. Her work sits at the intersection of strengths, mental health, and leadership, supporting high-achieving women in navigating burnout, reconnecting to themselves, and building lives and leadership that don't cost them their health. What I appreciate so much about this conversation with Kelly is how honest and nuanced it is.

[00:01:54] Because when we talk about mental health, especially in high-achieving spaces, it's easy to default to what's visible, like success, productivity, capability, resilience. But what we don't always see is what it takes to maintain that image, the pressure to keep going, the expectation that you'll be the one who can handle it, the identity of being the strong one, even when you're struggling.

[00:02:21] And for so many women, there can be this quiet internal experience of feeling like you don't have permission to not be okay. Because from the outside, everything looks like it's working. Everything looks great and perfect. And in this conversation, we talk about what it really means to be a high-achiever navigating mental health challenges.

[00:02:42] We explore the hidden costs of always holding it together, how strength can sometimes become a barrier to getting support, and why it can feel so difficult to tell the truth about what you're actually experiencing. There's so much wisdom here around reconnecting to yourself, redefining what sustainable success looks like, and creating space for both your ambition and your humanity to coexist.

[00:03:09] If you've ever felt like you should be able to manage it all, or like there's no room for you to struggle, I hope this conversation reminds you that you're not alone, and that you don't have to carry it all by yourself. I'm so excited to introduce today's guest, Kelly Dries. Hi, Kelly. Hi. I'm excited to be here. Excited to chat. Yeah, I'm so excited to have this conversation.

[00:03:36] Can you just maybe start off telling us a little bit about you and where you're at in the world and how you got there? Yeah. Well, I am a strengths-based leadership coach, and lately my work has focused a lot on helping high-achieving women who are doing really, really incredible things on paper. But underneath it, they're carrying a lot, a lot of pressure, a lot of responsibility, a lot of expectations.

[00:03:59] And my work is kind of about helping them come back to themselves so that they can lead in a way that feels sustainable. And I think why that resonates so much is because that's a journey I've been on myself, right? I am currently based on the West Coast, but I am an East Coaster, born and raised on the East Coast, but have slowly transitioned and made my way across the country as I've progressed in my career and in my life. And I'm definitely thriving on the West Coast, but I think you can't take the East Coast out of me.

[00:04:29] I think that balance of ambition and reflection, ambition was bred into me on the East Coast, and I think I am learning to relax and breathe a little more on the West Coast right now. So that's really interesting. So it's kind of like your journey, your evolution has not only been a mental and emotional one, but also a physical, like where you're located one. Yeah.

[00:04:56] And I think a lot of my career, my ambition, I guess if you would have asked me even five years ago, Kelly, what do you want to be when you grow up, right? I would have answered college president. I wanted to be a college president, and I told everybody that I wanted to be a college president. That was my goal. I was reaching for it, and I was progressing in higher education. And then kind of a storm of things happened in my life.

[00:05:23] Ended up becoming a mom for the first time in the pandemic, which was life-changing for me in a way that I did not anticipate. And then I lost a good friend of mine from college young. He and I actually read a book together. He had a cancer diagnosis. It was a stage five glioblastoma, so brain cancer. And he was given a year to live.

[00:05:45] And he had reached out to me when that happened, knowing that I'm a big reader, and said, you know, Kelly, can you recommend some books for me to read about this journey? Like someone going through the cancer journey. And I recommended several books to him, and one of them was The Last Lecture by Randy Posh. And he decided that was the book he wanted to read, and he asked me to read it with him. So we read this book together when he first got his diagnosis. And we would meet on Zoom and kind of discuss what we were reading, which was the wildest experience for me because he was living this.

[00:06:15] It was actually the same diagnosis Randy Posh had. And Randy Posh was a faculty member who gave his last lecture, and then his children published it in a book. But it talks about the lessons he learned. And it was a long-winded way of saying that those conversations with my friend changed my outlook of what I was prioritizing in my life. And at the time, I was very much, even becoming a mom, I feel like priority was still heavily on my career and my ambition.

[00:06:43] Ironically, when I was having those conversations with my friend, I was also pregnant with my second child. And once I had him, it was actually right when I was set to go back on maternity leave that my friend died. And I just had this moment. One of the last questions he asked me is like, Kelly, what is your legacy? And I didn't have a very good answer to that at the time. I think I'm still figuring out what my legacy is, but I knew that I didn't want it to be spending my time at work. And so I made a shift.

[00:07:12] And that shift, I think, for me, made me realize how much of my health was not being taken care of because of how much I was prioritizing work. I was putting myself completely on the back burner. And so I think my work now, one, I'm getting to spend a lot of time with my children, which is something that is really important to me. And I'm also helping leaders, a lot of women. Don't think it was intentionally that I sought out working with women. I think women just sought me out. And it's like my clientele.

[00:07:40] I have like one man every once in a while that hires me. But majority of my one-on-one clients are women. I find my work centering around helping them build lives and leadership that don't cost them their health. Because I think that was a big lesson I learned and something that I'm continuing to apply. I'm so sorry about your friend. And it sounds like it was a really big, impactful experience for you. Yeah. In how you decided you wanted to live your life from that point on.

[00:08:07] Because, you know, it's kind of like we're doing our best with the information we have at the time and the perspective that we have at the time. And then there are things that happen in life like that, like becoming a mom, other things, the pandemic, that just totally shift our perspective. And now we have new information. Sometimes I think it's interesting because what we were doing before felt so aligned at that time, right? Like working towards becoming a college president. That feels very aligned because that's very much what you want.

[00:08:37] And then there's new information, new perspective introduced. And it's like, oh, actually, that's not it. There's something different. Sometimes I look back and I'm like, did I really want that? Or was I in some way conditioned to want to keep reaching for more, right? Because I look back and I'm, I don't know, I feel like for so long I outsourced my decisions to other people telling me what I should do or what I couldn't do. What they expected of me, what roles I should be playing.

[00:09:05] And I think becoming a mom and also losing probably the first person close to me that was my age, right? Like I've lost people before, but I never lost someone that was like in the same stage of life to me who I knew who also had children, right? And so it woke me up to like, I could die tomorrow. And what have I done with my life? And am I actually doing with my life what I say that I value and what I think that I value?

[00:09:33] And I think, I don't know, it's like those experiences becoming a mom and losing Christian both taught me to trust myself again. And to actually kind of like cut through the chaos and figure out like, what is it that Kelly wants? And then actually listen. I think self-trust is something that as women, at least a lot of the women I work with have to find again. Yeah, I would agree. You know, we work with similar people and I agree. Both my own self journey and my client's journey.

[00:10:01] And I think also this idea of like, did I really want that? I don't know about you, but I've heard from so many women who are like, yeah, I built this career and it just doesn't fit anymore. I worked so hard for it. And so it feels like I can't throw it away. I can't get rid of it. It would be a waste to just do something different. And I really believe that I wanted that for so long, but did I actually want that? Or was I just conditioned to believe that I wanted that? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:29] This idea of trusting yourself again. I think that's really interesting because I felt similarly becoming a mom because I was like, okay, I don't know what to do. And I'm reading all the books. Oh my God, all the books. All the groups and all the things, but they're all telling me different things that I should be doing. And what's the right way? At some point I was just like, okay, I'm just going to need to learn to rely on my intuition here a bit.

[00:10:59] I don't know if that was always something that I did, but I think that for a lot of women, we'll talk about actually feeling like they lose trust in motherhood because they're like, I don't know how to do this thing. So I don't feel like I can trust myself to do it. So I guess I'm curious, what was it for you that helped you to regain that trust in yourself from these experiences, especially motherhood? You know, it's interesting because I can some ways relate to that, especially when they were babies, right?

[00:11:27] I often think back to like, what did my mom do when she couldn't just Google something? Like I Googled everything. Like the poop is this color. What does it mean? And like, do I need to do something? They're hiccuping weird. And this is what it sounds like. Like I can't imagine not being able to have Googled things. So I don't feel like I had trust in the beginning. I think it has grown as I've been able to handle different scenarios and situations that come up.

[00:11:53] But I think it's also grown because of some of the things that I've read and consumed, right? So I'm a big fan of Dr. Becky Kennedy. I'm a member of Good Inside. She has helped me build trust in my parenting style and also given me tools and strategies to handle things in the way that I want to handle them. A lot of that self-trust has been born in some ways in like, she talks about like reparenting yourself. I don't say that in the way that like my parents did a bad job, right?

[00:12:21] But like that generation of parents, I think instead of helping process emotions, it was like, let's just not do that. Right? Like let's just not cry. Where I think this generation is realizing that just like shutting it out can have effects. If you don't deal with the emotions that are rising in you, it will come out in some way, shape or form. Yeah. And I am trying to raise my children to really understand their emotions.

[00:12:50] And it's hard when I'm still figuring out what mine are because I wasn't taught that. Right? So we read the feeling books and I'm like, I don't know. Am I angry right now? Am I frustrated? Am I really sad at the core of it? Like what's going on for me? And I think what's cool is we're learning that together. But I guess that self-trust has just been developed that I feel like I'm doing the best that I can. I know where to go to get help. I know that I'm not alone in navigating some of the situations that I'm navigating.

[00:13:19] And I really think a lot of it actually stems from probably more my friend. I mean, when he asked me that question, one of the things that he was doing, he had a seven-year-old daughter at the time that he died. And he was writing everything down that he ever wanted to pass on to her. He was filming videos that she could open when she got married. So she'd get a message from him when she had her first child, when she graduated high school, like all of these pivotal moments for her.

[00:13:47] He recorded messages so she can kind of carry him with her, which is beautiful. And, you know, one of the things he said was like, I have the gift that I have a year to create all this stuff for her that I want to leave her. Like so many people die suddenly and don't have that opportunity. So he was like, what are you doing with your life to do that for your kids? And so I started writing them an email once a week. So I did this in conversations with him. My son wasn't even born yet. I set up email addresses for them on Google. And once a week, I write them an email.

[00:14:17] And sometimes it's like, hey, here's this really cool thing we did this week that I know you're not going to remember because you're three. Here's a cute picture of you doing this thing that was really, really cool for the first time. But a lot of times it's like, here's what's going on with me right now. And here's what I'm learning about myself. And here's how I'm growing. Here are some of the experiences that I've had and why this week I might have yelled. Because it triggered something in me from my past. And so I'm hoping that should something happen to me before they're 18, right?

[00:14:47] They get these emails that they feel like they can know me a little more. And or if I die as an old lady, they can still read them when they're adults and maybe learn something or see something from their childhood. Or I don't know. I guess if I'm still alive, I don't know when I'll give them these email inboxes that have weekly emails. And like a novel. My husband's like, there's a lot of emails. But I want them to feel like they know me and can understand why I am the way I am in a way that I feel like that has built my trust a little bit, if that makes any sense at all.

[00:15:17] Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I do similarly when I would do like late night pumping sessions. I started writing letters to my daughter. I just have like a Google Doc where I like just write letters to her. Similar to you. It's like things that she's doing, like tendencies she's showing. Because I always think it's so fun to hear from my parents like, oh, yeah, when you were five, you used to do this, right? Like I love hearing about how I used to like take my sisters.

[00:15:46] My mom's like I had a built-in babysitter because I was the oldest of three. And I would take them downstairs and I would play teacher to play school. I'd be the teacher. They'd be the students. Like, you know, and it's fun learning those things about yourself because you're like, oh, yeah, like that makes so much sense for where I'm at now or, you know, and the things I'm interested in. So I think that's such a cool gift to give our kids to share those kinds of things. And then also to your point of what is my mindset here? What is my experience here?

[00:16:13] And that's actually a big reason why I created this podcast, because of course it's to help women now. And also, if my daughter ever decides to become a mother, then she'll have this. Like she'll be able to hear my experience because I don't know about you, but every older woman that I talked to, it's like everyone was wonderful and everything was perfect. And the children never cried. And yeah, you never tell the bad stories, right? You look back with those rose-colored glasses.

[00:16:41] So I think, you know, hearing like the challenges of it too, you know, hopefully will help her feel seen in that. You know, you said something that I think is interesting about like it's really important for you to help your children to learn to navigate their emotions and learn about their emotions. Can you talk more about that? Like what is it about that that feels important to you? Similarly, I mean, I agree. I think our generation, it was like, yeah, like we're not going to talk about those things. Shove it down.

[00:17:10] Go up to your room and come on back down once you've collected yourself. But yeah, why does that feel important to you? I think it is so important to me because I didn't learn how to do that. I ended up struggling with my own mental health for decades because I didn't voice what I was feeling inside. I've read some research around this. Some of my doctoral work was spent looking at women's experiences.

[00:17:38] So I know I'm not alone in some of the things that I felt, but I always felt like I had to be good, right? Like I had to get the straight A's. I had to win the sports game. I had to like make the play, make the goal, stop the goal. I had to be the best at everything that I did. Sometimes like the emotions that came up for me were never like rewarded as like, oh, you're crying and processing something. And it was normally like similar, like go to your room until you can collect yourself and come down.

[00:18:07] But I didn't know how to collect myself. So I just like shoved it down. And when I ended up going to college, I hit a point where like I didn't have the tools to be able to process a lot of the emotions I was feeling. And it exacerbated itself, I guess, into an eating disorder that I'd had really my whole childhood. I first threw up when I was 10 years old, right? So like bulimia for me wasn't new.

[00:18:32] But when I got to college, it was like set loose in a way that was very unhealthy. I think I had been depressed for a long time also. But getting to college allowed me to isolate myself in a way that was not healthy. And so I struggled really bad with bulimia, with severe depression and severe depression that ended up kind of as a last resort.

[00:18:54] Ended up going through electroconvulsive therapy, which is only used in extreme cases, especially for someone that was in, I was in my early 20s when I had ECT. I probably spent five years in and out of psychiatric wards and eating disorder treatment centers. And so I have been to the darkest part of myself. And I think I want to be able to arm my children with the tools to navigate what they're feeling so that they're able to fight against those things. Because the world is harsh, right?

[00:19:24] It's not like it's rainbows and butterflies. And I'm trying to help them have the tools so that they can navigate when things get hard. Because it scares me, right? Like that depression in some ways, I firmly believe it's in my genes and it's in my genetics. Because electroconvulsive therapy is a last resort. But really what it does is reset the wirings in your brain. So you can't tell me that depression and eating disorders, that there's not a chemical component to it. When that really helped me get better, I would say ECT changed my life.

[00:19:54] And so when I think about my children, I'm like, my genetics are in there somewhere. They could be predisposed to this. So I want to make sure that they know that emotions are safe. Emotions are valid. Emotions are to be expected. And that we can find a way to work through them. So I think that's why it matters so much to me. I want them to be able to learn from my lived experience and not navigate it themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I'm curious.

[00:20:22] Is there a belief that if you had had these tools, that things would have been different? That you wouldn't have made it to the darkest parts of yourself? I mean, honestly, I think it would have helped. And I think back, right? Like when we were young, therapy was kind of like, oh, we don't talk about therapy. We don't talk about that we're struggling. Even my first bout in treatment and for years, like people didn't know.

[00:20:46] I, at one point in my journey, when I was in college, I attempted suicide and it was pretty intense. I was hospitalized. I won't share what I did because I feel like I don't want to trigger anybody. But I ended up in the hospital. And because of that, it was framed to my college that like, oh, it was just a car accident. And I went away for like, you know, a good month because I was in a psychiatric ward trying to get

[00:21:15] myself better to be able to come back to living. And I got back on campus and like, just didn't talk about it. Right. It was like, it was an accident. Yep. It was a car accident. So I think in some ways that fed even more of like, something is wrong with me. Yeah. But I think now our society is getting better at talking about these things openly. Yeah. Which helps because if you're someone who's struggling, then you can know like, I'm not alone. And there is a way out. There is help.

[00:21:41] But I think 20 years ago, it was more taboo. I think it's still a little taboo. But as more so, I think our society is getting more open about like, yeah, I go to therapy. And like, everybody should go to therapy. It's very healthy to go to therapy. Talking about it for me is cathartic because it makes me feel like I can voice this. And I am stronger because of this. But there was a long time where I didn't talk about any of this stuff and just continue to perform.

[00:22:09] Like when I went back to college, my campus, I was the student trustee of the university. So I sat on the board of trustees as the student representative. I was vice president of our Senate. I played on the field hockey team. I was one of the editors for our student newspaper. Like you name it. I was a leader on that campus, president of a couple of honor societies. Right. And outside of one or two very close friends, nobody knew what I was going through and what I was experiencing because I hid it away like a secret, like it was something to be ashamed of.

[00:22:39] And I'm not saying I'm proud of the things that I've been through, but I'm proud of what it's gotten me to and that I survived and that I'm here. And so to not talk about it is like to dismiss the things that got me here, right? The experiences that led me here. Well, I also think it's so important for you to talk about because there are probably so many people around us who are doing exactly like what you described, you know, who look

[00:23:07] perfect on paper, who look like they're on top of the world, achieving, you know, president of everything on involved in everything. And yet they're going through this silent struggle. And I do think that it is harder to talk about when you're in it sometimes because you don't know if you're going to make it out of it. You don't feel like you have as much to offer yet because you haven't figured it out. Right.

[00:23:33] Like when you get to the other side, then it's like, okay, now I can talk about like how I got to the other side and I have something to offer and maybe there's a slightly less shame because you're like, well, I do know how to get out of it. Like I did get out of it or through it. Right. I think it's so important to talk about because this is people that we know. Yeah. One of the reasons I talk about it too is right. Like I've, I've always been scared, right? Like I've shared depression is chemical. Right.

[00:24:00] And I, I truly believe that, or I don't believe ECT would have helped me in the way that it did was like waking back up to myself. So like, there's this fear for me of like, what if it comes back? What if that depression comes back? And there are moments where I can feel, I call it like the darkness. Like there are moments that I can feel it. Right. And I think I talk about it so that there's more people that can spot it if it does. For you. For me. Yeah. To be like, Kelly, are you okay? Do you need help?

[00:24:30] Should we amp up therapy? Should we do something different? Like what is going on? How can you take care of yourself? And I have a lot of strategies I use, but having people that can call me out and I can think of a moment. I actually wrote about it in my book, which we'll see whenever that is published, but I've written a book right about the time that I was getting married. There was a lot of things happening in my life. I was planning a wedding. I was getting ready to defend my dissertation because I wanted to be Dr. Drees before I got married.

[00:24:59] And then I was also getting ready to move to California from Utah where we had been for a new job and all that was happening at once. And so when I'm highly stressed, some of my eating disorder tactics from when I was younger that are like behaviors that are ingrained can come back to life. And I had lost some weight. Two of my close friends in Utah took me to lunch and were like, we're worried about you. Here's what we notice. Are you okay? Do you need help? What can we do?

[00:25:29] And you know, at the time, of course, I was like, deny, deny, deny. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But just them being able to sit down and call me out like that was like, shit, I need to get back to therapy. And so I got myself back into therapy and was able to kind of like course correct where I was headed, which was down a path that wasn't good. But because those friends knew because I'd talked about it, you know, I was involved with the National Eating Disorders Awareness Week in Utah. I spoke at marches and those friends heard me tell my story.

[00:25:58] They knew like something's not right here. We're just going to check in. And that helped me get myself back together because I was going down a bad path at the time. Um, so yeah, I think definitely a part of it for me, I guess, is selfish and that it can help me so that I can have people in my life be able to call me out if I start struggling again. But I also hope if someone listens, they can be like, wow, there's a way out. And it's hard just this month.

[00:26:25] Like I posted this month on my social media about National Semicolon Day. So I have a tattoo on my arm. It's a semicolon. And it's if you're familiar with the National Semicolon Project, it's basically for people who have attempted, who know someone who died from suicide, who survived a suicide attempt or for someone struggling to see it and be like, wow, you're a safe person. Like you get it. And I've had people in airports, at restaurants come up to me when I'm by myself and be like, hey, I'm struggling.

[00:26:55] It has created conversation and door openings. But I made a post very recently about this on April 16th, which was the National Semicolon Day. And on that same day, I found out an acquaintance of mine, someone that I knew when I lived in Baltimore years ago, killed himself the weekend before. And I had no idea, right? I hadn't talked to this individual in a while, but it happens so often to people we know, people we love. And so my hope is that my message, when I talk about it, hits somebody who needs it at that

[00:27:24] point in their life to maybe make a different decision. Yeah. I like to assume that people are good and have good intentions and want to help. So if we have people around us in our lives who maybe are struggling, kind of like how your friends took you to lunch and had a conversation, do you have any suggestions or advice about how to broach those conversations with people in our lives?

[00:27:53] Because I think it's like we're going to often talk ourselves out of it. We're going to say, well, it's not my place. Or what if I upset them so much and throw them over the edge? What if it goes badly? And then we're not friends anymore. So many probably times that we've thought about maybe saying something where we've noticed something is off. And it's like, how do we navigate this? Yeah. I mean, I think it's with a bit of curiosity, right?

[00:28:22] Being curious and compassionate. So saying like, hey, this is what I've noticed. What's going on? Are you okay? I'm worried about you. I care about you. Here's what I see. Do you need support? How can I support you? So I think it's not approaching of like, you did this. I saw you do this. And now I'm concerned and you need help. But it's I, right? Like I language. I am seeing these things and I am concerned. Are you okay? What can I do for you? How can I be a support?

[00:28:51] You know, sometimes it's showing up in small ways. So you say that and they're like, I'm fine. I don't need any help. Okay. Send them a little note to be like, hey, I really care about you. So if you're worried that they're thinking about killing themselves and attempting suicide, ask them, are you thinking about hurting yourself? Are you thinking about killing yourself? And I know people, right? I've gone through the gatekeeper training when I worked in higher education to be able to help students be gatekeepers. And one of the things we teach them is like, you can ask the question. A lot of people think if they ask that question, they're like planting a seed.

[00:29:21] If someone is suicidal, you're not planting the seed. You're not going to push them over the edge by asking. But by asking, you're giving them an opportunity to say that they need help, to know that you're not going to judge them, that you're not going to shame them. But you're there as someone who's concerned and who can be a safe space. I know for me, had someone asked that, and I remember the moment. I remember the moment. I've attempted suicide a few times and I won't go into detail, but the one that kind of was my rock bottom. I remember everything from that day.

[00:29:50] And it's ironic, I guess, maybe. Electroconvulsive therapy, actually, you end up losing a lot of memories. So I have a lot of memories that are just like, poof, gone. And I wish this was one that I didn't hold still. But I remember everything about that day. I remember leaving a meeting. I was in a meeting in our administration building with the board of trustees. And that whole meeting, I was in my head of like, why am I here? I don't want to be here. Nobody cares about me. Nobody sees me. Nobody knows that I'm not okay. I walked out of the building.

[00:30:19] I walked right to my car and I went and I did something awful. But had just one person stopped and said, are you okay? I wonder what the outcome would have been. And that's not to blame the people in that space. But that's to say, as I bet someone did question, is Kelly okay? And didn't feel comfortable asking. So I think if you see that and you think someone's not okay, ask the question. Because you never know what an outcome could be that's different. And there were several things, right? Like, I walked past probably six or seven offices on my way out to my car.

[00:30:49] And like, had I seen a, you know, they have flyers a lot of times now on college campuses. And maybe they did then, but it wasn't in this building that I was in around like the free number to call if you're thinking of killing yourself. Like, I would have called. Nothing hit me on the way out. And so I did what I did. And again, I don't want to say that to be like, oh, the outcome would have been different. Who knows? Yes, but it would not have hurt what I was going to do had someone stopped me and said something. And so that's what I think.

[00:31:17] If you're thinking like, oh, if I do this, it's going to push them over the edge. If they're headed there, they're headed there. Your question might make them pause, might make them stop for a second to rethink what they're doing, might make them call a therapist or call for help, even if they deny in the moment. And I think that's what I did with my friends, right? And to be honest, they'll read this chapter and be like, oh, wow, I didn't know I made a difference because I never actually told them how much that meant to me. Because at the time I was like, oh my God, I'm fine. What are you talking about? Yeah, I've lost a little weight. I'm stressed. Like, I'm fine. I wasn't.

[00:31:44] And them doing that helped me so much to not go down a path that I think would have been detrimental because the eating disorder feeds the depression and it would have been a bad path for me to go down at that time. And they stopped me. Yeah. You probably are going to feel discomfort in that moment. But that is a feeling that kind of like pales in comparison to the feeling knowing that you didn't say anything. I would rather feel a little bit uncomfortable saying something than living with like, oh my

[00:32:14] gosh, I should have. What if I had? Could I have made a difference? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's hard too because I think for people who've lost someone from suicide, those are the questions they replay. Like, I should have said something. If I had acted this way, if I have done this, it would have been different. And I think that's a dangerous line to go down too because it's when you're in that mode, you're not thinking of anything but yourself and your pain and a way out. And you often think that everyone's life will be better if you are removed from it.

[00:32:43] And so I don't want it to seem like there's something you can say. But if you're worried, I think not being afraid to ask the question, not being afraid to check in because you don't know what could help. Yeah. It might not do anything, but what if it does? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing that's interesting is the stigma around it. I mean, when you are talking about when you were in college and just said you were in a car accident and everyone kind of went with that, whether they knew it,

[00:33:13] knew the truth or not. Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about all the positions that you held, all of the places where you were revered and respected. And you probably then are thinking like, well, would that change things for me? And frankly, in our society, definitely 20 years ago, but probably even today, the answer is probably yes, right? It's probably changes how people would look at you and perceive you. And I think what's interesting about that is that you were still able to be so effective

[00:33:41] at everything you were doing, I assume, because you continue doing it and this was going on. Yeah. And I would say, yes, there's a lot of stigma. I think there's stigma still when I talk about the fact that I did attempt suicide and that I have struggled. I would say there is still stigma. And I remember when I first attempted that I was found out, I guess, because I ended up in the hospital and my whole family was there.

[00:34:09] And I come from a very Catholic upbringing. And, you know, the mindset in my parents' mind was like, if this had worked, you'd be in hell, right? And so that was one of the questions that my mom asked of like, you do know this, right? That's what we learn. Like, you'd be in hell. At the time was like, holy crap, like I'm a really big disappointment, right? And so it fed a narrative that I was disappointing.

[00:34:36] But I think that notion, like for folks who are very religious and suicide, and there is a component there that has a stigma still and a belief for people that there are consequences to doing that. And what does that mean? And I don't believe that at all, even being raised Catholic and having a lot of my beliefs, I feel like coming from what I was taught to believe. I think that's something I don't agree with at all, but I do think there are people who do. And I think that adds to the stigma and like the hush, we don't want to talk about this

[00:35:06] because that belief is there that if you do that, you're selfish and self-centered and that's a sin. Yeah. And you took the easy way out. Yeah. Yeah. I remember someone I went to college with died by suicide and it was weird, the reactions in the circles that he was in. And because it was like, someone just died in our community and some people are just like not acknowledging it at all, which feels weird because, you know, it's kind of like

[00:35:35] you have certain rituals, right? Whenever something happens. And if someone like other people in that same circle from college had also died, the narrative was like just so different. And the response was so different, you know, and the outpouring of just, oh, this person was so amazing and, you know, and all the things. And here it felt weird because it was like crickets. It was like, man, are we not going to acknowledge this?

[00:36:04] But, you know, there is so much stigma associated with it of like, oh, now it's changed my opinion of this person, you know? And I think for the person who tries and lives, there's a lot of shame. Yeah. Right? That continues. I can't say, I mean, this was 20 years ago and I can't say that I don't still carry shame from that of the pain that I put my family through and the people who love me who knew what happened. Shame that I tried. Like the what if, oh my gosh, had that worked, like I wouldn't have my children.

[00:36:32] Like there's a lot of those thoughts that are in my own head still. And so there is like shame and stigma so wrapped up in it. But I think if we don't talk about it, then for those who are struggling right now, that shame and stigma gets compounded even more. So I think it's important to talk about it, but it's hard because it's still in many ways charged taboo topic. Yeah. Yeah. And emotionally charged. And back to what you were talking about before, we didn't learn how to handle those emotions.

[00:37:02] So, you know, there are lots of people out in the world who are not actively reparenting themselves and listening to Dr. Becky to tell them how to do that and going to therapy and sitting with their emotions all the time. Right. And so it can be very triggering and kind of, you know, oh, keep that far away because that brings up too much in me that I don't know what to do with. Well, one of the things you brought up too was around, I went back and I continued to do all the things. Yeah.

[00:37:28] When I look back at my life and I would say like that attempt and going back, I still had a good five years before I got ECT. So I still was heavily struggling for a long period of time. And ECT wasn't also like a band-aid cure-all, like, right? Like it helped and a lot of other things patched together with it to help me get my life back. But I also feel like for so long, I was operating very disconnected from myself. I joined all the clubs.

[00:37:57] I said yes to all the things in a way to not listen to the racket that was going on inside my brain, which some of it was dark, but some of it was also like what I wanted and needed and felt. And I just pushed that to the side to be on this hamster wheel of like, go, go, go, produce, achieve, be the person that other people want you to be, expect you to be, think you should be. And so, I mean, I entered the workforce in my first job still on that hamster wheel. And then, you know, I progressed in my career.

[00:38:27] I finally got into higher education. I progressed there. And, you know, I was the person that was like managing a team of 10. And then I was on a board over here for a professional association, a board over here. I was sitting on a nonprofit board. I was leading all these extra committees on campus and I was getting awards, right? Like I was getting praised for the fact that I was burning myself out and I was burning myself out because I didn't want to pay attention to what was going on in my head, right?

[00:38:54] So like, I think a lot of times and why I love working with high achieving women is because for many of them, they've just been on this hamster wheel of like, go, go, go, achieve, achieve, achieve. And at some point, something's going to snap. At some point, you can't do it anymore. Or you don't want to. Or you don't want to. And you want to get off. And like, it's like, how do you reconnect back to yourself? How do you cut the noise and figure out what is it that you want? And how do you slowly come back, right?

[00:39:22] And so I think that's why this, not to say that mental health struggles all look the same, right? They don't. But the threat I see both in my own life and in a lot of the women I work with is disconnection, right? And the work is like, how do you find your way back to yourself? Yeah. Can you tell us in two minutes or less how we do that? Just kidding. But I am curious in that way back to yourself, what have you found some of the biggest things

[00:39:51] that have helped you with that? I think recognizing one that you don't have to have everything figured out to start to make changes if you're feeling like you're disconnected from yourself. I think something that I ask most of my clients in the women's leadership group I run, we often talk about this as like paying attention to what's energizing you and what's draining you because that can give you a lot of insight into partly the things you're good at, but the things you care about, the things you value.

[00:40:19] I think it's also knowing if you're feeling disconnected, if you're feeling overwhelmed or like you're holding a lot, you're not doing something wrong. You just might need space to come back to yourself and then figuring out what that is, right? Like sometimes I think, I know you said quickly two minutes or less, but... No, no, I was kidding. My number one Gallup strength, probably not super surprising, is Achiever. And I think about this a lot. Achiever is a very common strength for women.

[00:40:45] And I could go on a soapbox tangent about what that means, but I struggle to not be productive. And I wonder how much of that is trying to not be in my mind. So I sometimes have to watch myself even when I'm with... I typically work in the mornings and the afternoons I have my kids. And I'll have my kids and like we'll be at a park, but I'll be listening to a podcast because I can't sometimes just be present and play. It's like really, really hard for me to do that because I feel like I need to be achieving constantly.

[00:41:15] And if I don't, then I get grumpy. So I don't want to be grumpy with the kids. So I'll listen to my podcast. But then I'm like, why can't I just be here with them? I don't have it all figured out. I'm still learning. But I think knowing that sometimes that space to be present and be with yourself is important. And it's hard to do if you're not used to doing that. A lot of the things that you are talking about are things that you've learned over time that you're not used to doing, right?

[00:41:43] Like actually paying attention to emotions and not being productive for a little bit, being present with what's in the moment. That's not creating, achieving, accomplishing, striving. Those are really hard things to unlearn. I've gone on a similar journey. I feel like we're on similar journeys in that regard. So I'm curious, if someone is listening who is struggling, what would you say to them?

[00:42:13] You're not alone. There is help that you can get to get you back to yourself. Because I think sometimes when we're struggling, we don't feel like ourselves. Or we're in such a dark place that maybe we're snapping more or we're crying more. However, that emotion is finding its way out of your body. Or you're acting on a behavior that's maybe unhealthy, some form of addiction, right? I think knowing that there is help available that's out there and that you're worthy of getting help

[00:42:40] and getting yourself back to a place that brings you joy. I think once you find that, like there is beauty in that. Once you can get back to yourself and find the little things that bring you joy. Like I don't know if I'm just getting older, but like lately birds have been really like nature. I'm not like a bird watcher, right? But when I'm out in nature and I see a bird, it brings me joy in the smallest of ways. And I think part of that just comes back to being present.

[00:43:07] Being present is something I have to really, really work at. And I have been diligently working at that for the last several years. But when I am able to be present and in the moment, I can find more joy than when I am ruminating about the past or anticipating the future. So I think a lot of times when we're struggling, we're either in past or future. And so like how can you get yourself back to present? And if you can't do that on your own, there's nothing wrong with getting help and you are worthy of getting help. I love that.

[00:43:37] No judgment to bird watchers. Yeah, no judgment to bird watchers. Sorry. I actually, for Christmas, I asked for one of those video. Oh my God, the camera. Yes. I got something for Christmas last year, but it didn't have the camera. And I was like, no, no, no. I need a camera so I can watch them on my phone. Yes. And so I haven't set it up yet, but I'm very excited to do that. Yes. I want one of those. Yeah. Kelly, is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you feel like you want to share?

[00:44:05] I feel like one of the things maybe that I didn't, and part of it's on my mind because my newsletter this morning shared a little bit of this story. But one night this week, my daughter, we're in bed and that's when she's always like really, really chatty. No, same. And I had to work early in the morning that next day. I had a client on the East Coast. So my meeting was at like 7 a.m. And my kids don't wake up that early. And so she was kind of upset that in the morning I wouldn't be there. I'd be in the driveway in my camper office.

[00:44:34] And she was like, kind of like starting to fall asleep and just said, I wish I could clone you, mama, so that your clone could go to work. I was like, oh my God, that's so sweet. And also like that would be, you know, like in my head, right? She was about to sleep. So I was just like, me too, baby. I love you too. But I was like, that'd be really cool if I had a clone. Yeah, clone me, could go to work. And then I sat there as I was holding her and I was like, no, but then I wouldn't get to go to work, right? And like, there's a part of me that also wants to go to work.

[00:45:01] And if I had a clone, like it was like, well, which one would I choose when like, I want to be here with you, but I also want to be at work. And so like, I still wouldn't be satisfied even if I had a clone because real me would know and real me would miss out on one or the other at all times. And so I think that that piece of like being a mom and being ambitious and wanting it all, right? I think we're fed this narrative that like, you can have it all. And I hate that narrative because I don't think it's true. I don't think that you can have it all.

[00:45:31] And I guess in some ways you could say like, yes, I have it all. Like I have a career, I'm running a business and I have kids and I, and I love my life, but I can't be everywhere at once. I'm always missing something. If I'm choosing to do work and I miss some pivotal moment with my kids, it happens. If I'm with my kids, sometimes I might miss the pivotal client or training that I could have led that would have changed or opened a new door, right? So that you're always giving something up. And I think we don't talk about that a lot. And I guess I just share that. That's top of mind for me right now.

[00:45:59] It's like balancing that is a challenge and learning to just be okay with being enough in both spaces. Yeah. Yeah. We could do a whole episode on that. Yeah, I agree. It's funny because my daughter, our daughters must be on the same wavelength because she asked for a clone the other day as well. How old is she? She's seven. Like, but which one would be me? And she's like, well, both. I want both of them to you. And I was like, I don't think we're there yet. I don't think that's me.

[00:46:29] And even if we are there, I don't know. I don't know. But she believes that I have magic. So she's like, can you just magic it to happen? Yeah. So, well, I have loved this conversation, Kelly. I am so grateful to you for being so open and honest with us. And thank you so much. If people are interested in working with you, how can they do that? Where can they find you? Yeah. So kellydrees.com is where they can find me or Drees Coaching and Consulting on Instagram or Kelly Drees on LinkedIn. Happy to connect.

[00:46:59] Happy to chat further. I do a lot of team trainings, a lot of one-on-one coaching. And my Rise Women's Leadership Group, I'm currently taking applications for, for a new cohort start in July. So if you're interested in chatting more, definitely reach out. Happy to chat. Perfect. And that will all be in the show notes and on the website. And they would find this on your website to apply? Yep. Wonderful. It's Drees, but it looks like dries. Yes. It does.

[00:47:28] Sounds like trees, but looks like dries. Yes. So wonderful. Well, thank you again so much, Kelly. And thank you everyone for tuning in today. And we will see you all next week. Thank you so much for listening to Leadership in Motherhood. I genuinely hope you're walking away with something helpful that will positively impact your life. If this podcast resonates with you, it would mean the world to me if you'd support the show by leaving a five-star rating on Apple or Spotify, sharing an episode you love with

[00:47:57] someone you care about, and or by following the show. I hope you'll join me again next week. And until then, I'm wishing you all the best in this season of your one and only precious life.