"Leading with Love: Transforming Workplace Dynamics with Mark Mears"

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[00:00:43] Welcome back, folks!

[00:00:45] We got a very special episode today.

[00:00:47] We have an amazing guest that I came across really by accident, but as he would say, no coincidence.

[00:00:54] But before we get into all that, how you doing, Walt?

[00:00:58] I am good, my brother. I cannot complain. I'm still feeling grateful from the holidays.

[00:01:05] No doubt.

[00:01:06] Glad to be here, man. Glad to be here with you. Glad to be connected with Mark today.

[00:01:11] And I'm grateful for our listeners.

[00:01:13] Yes.

[00:01:14] We tell that to you people that are listening to us, wherever you're at in the U.S. or across the globe.

[00:01:22] We appreciate you and we're grateful for you.

[00:01:25] So I just wanted to say that.

[00:01:26] How about you, man? How you doing?

[00:01:28] Absolutely. Nah, I like that. I just want to say we do love you. It's no joke. It's the few of you.

[00:01:34] Not enough. I wish more of you would reach out on LinkedIn.

[00:01:37] Even if you got a complaint, like we want to hear the good, the bad, the ugly.

[00:01:40] We want to make this show better. And it's those little tidbits that push us through.

[00:01:45] Because we have full-time jobs. This is not our, this is a passion for us. And yeah, we love you.

[00:01:51] Thank you so much for keep listening. We see you. Thank you.

[00:01:54] Today's guest is named Mark Mears.

[00:01:57] He wrote this great book called The Purposeful Growth Revolution.

[00:02:01] Four ways to grow from leader to legacy builder.

[00:02:05] Again, really great. We'll get into more of that and hear all about them.

[00:02:10] But before that, man, let's get into some news.

[00:02:13] Yeah, let's do it. Mine's really gonna be short and sweet.

[00:02:16] And I wanna preface anything that I say by validate and check any resources that we give you.

[00:02:23] Fact check it. Go to the official websites of any agency.

[00:02:28] Go to pay org, go to the irs.gov, your state site, whatever it is, to find out this information.

[00:02:36] But I found a site called onpay.com and they had some federal and state payroll updates for 2025 that they're listing out there.

[00:02:47] I'm not gonna go through all of them.

[00:02:48] Like they talk about the health FSA limit increasing.

[00:02:52] Okay. Okay.

[00:02:53] From 3,200 to 3,300.

[00:02:55] Oh, nice.

[00:02:56] Individual HSA limit is increasing from 4150 to 4,300.

[00:03:02] Different things like that in there that they break down and they have a map on the screen of the United States that you can click on your state.

[00:03:10] And it will tell you if any updates are happening in your state or on the horizon for 2025.

[00:03:16] So it's onpay.com.

[00:03:18] The link will be in the show notes.

[00:03:19] Just wanted to share that.

[00:03:20] And it's one of the main tools that we have out there.

[00:03:23] Yes.

[00:03:24] Shout out to Christina, her team over at Valor.

[00:03:27] She also has a great resource accessible for you and others.

[00:03:31] Check it out.

[00:03:32] Oh, dope.

[00:03:33] Love it, man.

[00:03:34] Thank you.

[00:03:35] Mine is coming from IRS.gov.

[00:03:38] They put out, I'm on their, their email subscription, their email feed.

[00:03:42] And this is one of the tips that they sent out.

[00:03:44] And we always talk about cybersecurity, scams.

[00:03:48] We did it last year and we'll do it every year because this is the holiday time is when scammers and hackers, and they really ramp up their efforts because folks are in the giving mood, but also not paying attention enough.

[00:04:03] Right.

[00:04:03] They're overwhelmed with work and shopping and cooking and this and that, and all the things that are happening during the holiday season.

[00:04:09] Oh wait, I got my big eyeglasses on.

[00:04:11] Hold on one second.

[00:04:13] Can I add something there, Brian?

[00:04:14] Absolutely.

[00:04:14] Of course.

[00:04:15] A lot of times, especially for those of us in the U.S. or even maybe across the globe.

[00:04:21] Across the globe.

[00:04:21] Yeah.

[00:04:22] That may live paycheck to paycheck during the holidays is when we consume and buy a lot, right?

[00:04:28] Yeah.

[00:04:29] A lot of people get loans, payday advances.

[00:04:32] Oh yes.

[00:04:33] And so when you sign up for those services, you get a lot of noise and you may click on something saying, oh, you're approved.

[00:04:41] Yes.

[00:04:42] If you, especially if you apply through some site that doesn't have all the bells and whistles and security in place.

[00:04:47] And I'm glad you say all those things.

[00:04:49] Like you can click on one of those things and next thing taking you for the little bit that you do have.

[00:04:54] Right.

[00:04:55] So just be careful about that.

[00:04:57] And you bring up something important as well for folks who can't do anything monetarily this season and may feel bad and click on that.

[00:05:07] Oh my gosh, I could afford that.

[00:05:09] Wow.

[00:05:10] And again, like there, I, I think I, I probably speak for us both that where we, there were Christmases and we couldn't do anything.

[00:05:17] You know what I mean?

[00:05:18] You getting hugs this year.

[00:05:19] You know what I mean?

[00:05:20] Like we've been there, I've done that.

[00:05:22] And because of that, I, me and my wife have tried to like make it all conservative, make it very purposeful.

[00:05:29] No pun intended for all of us out there, but for those who are shopping and online and things like that, IRS put out safety tips to remember during the holiday season and throughout the year.

[00:05:41] Right.

[00:05:41] Time of year for online shopping.

[00:05:43] The security summit reminds taxpayers of some important steps to protect themselves and their information from data thieves shot.

[00:05:52] Just like wall said shop at online sites with the web addresses that begin with HTP S the S stands for secure communications.

[00:06:01] Okay.

[00:06:03] Also look for a padlock icon in the browser window.

[00:06:07] Okay.

[00:06:07] Don't shop on unsecured public Wi-Fi in places like a mall or a restaurant.

[00:06:14] And sure security software is updated on computers, tablets, and mobile phones.

[00:06:20] Watch out and help protect devices of family members who may not be technologically savvy.

[00:06:25] And that goes from young children to older adults to maybe you.

[00:06:29] I used to be really savvy once upon a time, but I feel it slipping away because the technology is just going way faster than that we can all keep up with.

[00:06:37] Make sure antivirus software for computers have a feature stop malware and that there's a firewall enabled to prevent intrusions.

[00:06:45] If you don't know what these things are, take the time and look them up.

[00:06:48] Okay.

[00:06:49] Use strong, unique passwords for online accounts.

[00:06:53] Use multi-factor authentication whenever possible.

[00:06:57] So glad that they got rid of the two, two, two fat, two FA.

[00:07:00] Like you couldn't say it, right?

[00:07:01] Two factors.

[00:07:02] And then simple, simple steps that can protect taxpayers as well.

[00:07:05] Because right after the holiday season, what is it?

[00:07:09] It's time to prep for taxes.

[00:07:11] Yeah.

[00:07:11] Right. For most folks, they're starting to think about the next day.

[00:07:14] Oh, April 15th is going to come.

[00:07:16] So that's a few things for that is look out for phishing or they even said smishing, phishing emails or SMS text messages.

[00:07:24] No, that's smishing.

[00:07:25] Oh, a new word.

[00:07:26] Here we go.

[00:07:26] See? So I just learned this now clicking on.

[00:07:29] And my mom always calls me with these things.

[00:07:30] Oh, they're calling.

[00:07:32] And I'm like, don't touch it.

[00:07:33] Don't do anything.

[00:07:34] Spear phishing.

[00:07:35] This is a specific type of phishing scam that bypasses emailing large groups at organizations instead of identifying potential victims and delivering a more realistic email known as a lure.

[00:07:47] Okay.

[00:07:47] And this I will shout out to my to finance folks, payroll folks, HR folks, because if they think you have the keys to the register or any access to the money, they are going to spear phish you.

[00:08:01] Okay.

[00:08:03] Clone phishing, a newer type of phishing scam that clones a real email message and resends it to original recipient pretending to be the original sender.

[00:08:13] Folks, they're getting really sophisticated.

[00:08:16] Folks, they're getting really sophisticated.

[00:08:16] And again, yep.

[00:08:18] Again, shout out to splunk.com.

[00:08:21] S P L U N K.

[00:08:22] They have a free download manual book that goes into the top 50 methods that these hackers will take to do this.

[00:08:31] And then the last one is called whaling.

[00:08:33] Whaling attacks are very similar to spear phishing, except these attacks are generally target to leaders or executives with access to large amounts.

[00:08:42] Yep.

[00:08:42] Of information.

[00:08:43] And this is probably the C suite organization or business whaling attacks can target people in payroll offices, human resource personnel and financial office.

[00:08:52] So I take that, but I stand corrected.

[00:08:55] Whaling is the one that they're going after us for.

[00:08:58] So please, this will be in the show notes.

[00:09:01] Yeah.

[00:09:02] You know, copy it.

[00:09:02] We'll look at it, right?

[00:09:03] Just a little tidbit that, that will help us get through the season, both holiday and the tax season.

[00:09:09] And there are a bunch of helpful links here.

[00:09:12] If you get, if you feel like you've been a victim, there's links that you can go and report this and put it on the radar.

[00:09:18] Cause you want to give the authorities as much data as they can to try to figure out who's doing the attacks.

[00:09:25] Yep.

[00:09:25] Yeah.

[00:09:26] That was all I had for the right.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Let's pay the bills, man.

[00:09:30] We, yeah, man.

[00:09:32] Shout out to time track go.

[00:09:33] It got me excited.

[00:09:34] I was like, wow, this is really good information.

[00:09:36] That's great.

[00:09:37] I get excited with the info sharing the info.

[00:09:39] We got to share it, man.

[00:09:40] Shout out to time track go.

[00:09:42] If you're tired of messy timesheets and complicated time clock software, time track go is an intuitive solution that makes managing employee hours simple and efficient, but don't take our word for it.

[00:09:54] Customers have given time track go a 4.7 out of five stars on Capterra, and they have been awarded badges for best ease of use and best customer support again in 2024.

[00:10:08] That's right.

[00:10:08] Again.

[00:10:09] And here are a few things that the customers are saying.

[00:10:13] Great value best clock in app on the market.

[00:10:16] Great time clock for the modern office, intuitive and efficient, simple to use price.

[00:10:24] Right.

[00:10:24] And customer support is awesome.

[00:10:28] Nice.

[00:10:29] So to learn more about a simply better solution for time tracking, real time reporting, PTO automation, those payroll integrations that we all love or more, you want to go visit www.timetrackgo.com.

[00:10:45] That's T I M E T R A K go.com and start your 14 day free trial today.

[00:10:55] Let's go.

[00:10:56] Let's go.

[00:10:57] Also on lookout for they're doing now they're hosting webinars more often.

[00:11:03] So look out for that, go onto their LinkedIn page.

[00:11:05] Cause they're showing they're starting to host more webinars where folks can jump on and just learn more about the app without having to go through the trouble of booking a day and hit my calendar.

[00:11:15] And do these, right.

[00:11:16] It's annoying sometimes to make these appointments.

[00:11:18] And even though you need it, you're like, Oh, I gotta go jump through these hoops.

[00:11:21] Right.

[00:11:22] When you want to just maybe jump on sometimes and let me look, no pressure, no salespeople beating down your door.

[00:11:28] And honestly, the folks over there are family.

[00:11:31] They're great.

[00:11:31] It's not even that type of environment with them, like with the sales and all that is there again, the customer support, the 4.7 out of five, all the things that customers are saying.

[00:11:40] We know it firsthand before we even got involved with them like that.

[00:11:45] We pressure tested the app.

[00:11:47] We, you know, we look point.

[00:11:49] We did try to break it and ask questions and all that.

[00:11:52] And then they came on the show and then they were great guys.

[00:11:56] We're still again, very in touch with them and talk to them all the time.

[00:11:59] Um, and you gotta go take out the show that we do because I always talk about the wooden time clocks.

[00:12:04] Yeah.

[00:12:05] So as we move on today, folks, super excited today, we are thrilled to welcome Mark Mears to the podcast.

[00:12:13] Mark is a visionary business leader and self-proclaimed growth junkie with over 20 years of C-level leadership experience at world-class brands like PepsiCo, McDonald's, Frito-Lay, JCPenney, NBC Universal, and the Cheesecake Factory.

[00:12:32] Mark is passionate about transforming workplace dynamics during what many call the great resignation.

[00:12:39] He challenges us to reframe this period as the great repurposing.

[00:12:45] Leveraging purpose-driven strategies to reignite engagement, drive innovation, and cultivate meaningful growth across teams and organizations.

[00:12:56] As the author of the best-selling book, The Purposeful Growth Revolution, Mark introduces us to the transformative power of his LEAF framework for leadership, engagement, accountability, and fulfillment, helping individuals and organizations unlock their true potential.

[00:13:17] We can't wait to dive into Mark's insights and explore how to embrace purpose to achieve great things together.

[00:13:25] Welcome to the show, Mark Mears.

[00:13:28] Well, thanks for joining us today.

[00:13:30] Um, how are you doing?

[00:13:32] Before we get into everything, give us a little bit about yourself and how you got to this point and, and we'll dig into the book a little bit.

[00:13:39] First of all, Brian and William, it's so great to be with you and appreciate the opportunity to have some good conversation and some fun along the way.

[00:13:48] I like to keep things light.

[00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:51] And give people a little something to smile about as well.

[00:13:55] And your first question certainly is a loaded one.

[00:13:58] How much time do we have?

[00:14:00] We got a little bit of time.

[00:14:01] Jeff, I think look, the way I've heard you speak already.

[00:14:04] I believe that you can craft a great answer in a short amount of time.

[00:14:10] All right.

[00:14:10] I think you got something about a marketing background.

[00:14:12] I think I heard about.

[00:14:13] A little something, something like that, but it didn't start out that way.

[00:14:17] I grew up in Wichita, Kansas and worked at the University of Kansas and thought I was going to be a lawyer.

[00:14:23] Oh, wow.

[00:14:24] And so you can't major in pre-law.

[00:14:27] So I asked her and said, well, what would be the right curriculum to prepare me?

[00:14:32] Not only to get in law school, but succeed there as well as a lawyer after that.

[00:14:37] And they said, you're going to do a lot of reading, a lot of research, writing presentations, and really a lot of critical thinking.

[00:14:45] I said, okay, great.

[00:14:46] Sounds good.

[00:14:47] What curriculum should I look to enroll in at KE to prepare me for that?

[00:14:52] And he said, well, you thought about the school of journalism and mass communications?

[00:14:56] And I said, no, tell me more.

[00:14:58] And they said, well, you're going to do a lot of those things there.

[00:15:00] So I got into the school of journalism and mass communications.

[00:15:04] I did really well.

[00:15:05] I was enjoying my marketing communications side of it on the mass communications more than the news editorial side.

[00:15:11] Not that there was anything wrong with that.

[00:15:13] That just wasn't what interested me.

[00:15:15] It was really about crafting communications based on the way people think and act.

[00:15:21] Um, and I thought that was cool to bring psychology into communications.

[00:15:27] One thing led to another.

[00:15:29] And one of the professors I had was Dr.

[00:15:31] Tim Bankston, who became a mentor of mine and saw something in me that I didn't see in myself.

[00:15:37] He said, Hey, are you sure you want to be a lawyer?

[00:15:40] I think he'd really be good in marketing.

[00:15:43] And I said, oh no, I'm just doing this to get into law school.

[00:15:46] But I went out and talked to people that were either in law school, maybe recently out.

[00:15:51] Some even had their name on the letter.

[00:15:53] Nobody was having any fun.

[00:15:56] And nobody was encouraging me.

[00:15:58] So I set up another appointment with Dr.

[00:16:00] Bankston and he, you know, I said, tell me more about this grad school.

[00:16:05] And he said, there's some really good schools.

[00:16:07] I think you should go to Northwestern.

[00:16:09] I asked him a couple other professors and they said, Illinois has got a good program.

[00:16:12] Texas has got a good program.

[00:16:14] And I got into all three and Northwestern was my top choice because it's still to this day, the very best.

[00:16:23] program for marketing communications.

[00:16:25] As a matter of fact, the next mentor was a Dr.

[00:16:29] Don Schultz at Northwestern who came up with the concept of integrated marketing communications, which is now shortened to IMC.

[00:16:37] And there's programs literally all over the world that have IMC programs.

[00:16:41] But I was able to learn at the feet of the master when it was just taking shape.

[00:16:47] And that got me into marketing and became the foundation for my kind of ethos or how I viewed building teams and building brands.

[00:17:00] And I always say that in that order, because I love building teams, because if you don't have a good team, you're not going to build a great brand.

[00:17:08] And Dr.

[00:17:09] Schultz vision for integrated marketing communications wasn't just looking externally at what the guest or customer sees or client sees, if you're being a B.

[00:17:20] It was the internal brand.

[00:17:22] Because again, if you don't have a strong internal brand, the rest of it could be a bunch of empty promises that now marketing is making and operations and trading have to go keep.

[00:17:33] But if you are aligned with the brand on all of its levels, now I'll say there are four brands.

[00:17:40] There's your personal brand, which answers the question, who am I?

[00:17:43] Every one of us has a personal brand.

[00:17:45] And we're more and more comfortable today at this new world of work being able to express it.

[00:17:51] Then there is the internal brand, which is the collective we asking the question, what do we stand for?

[00:17:57] This is our vision, our mission, our values.

[00:18:00] And then it's the external brand that most people think is the brand, which is really just a value exchange.

[00:18:05] I don't care if you're in sales or marketing, but all it a value exchange.

[00:18:12] What do I get for what do I pay?

[00:18:15] But most importantly, how do I feel about that?

[00:18:19] And I don't care what industry you may be in.

[00:18:22] I'll say until the zombies or robots or chat GPT takes us away.

[00:18:28] The AI here.

[00:18:29] We're all in the people business.

[00:18:31] And if we're in the people business, we have to be in the feelings business.

[00:18:35] We'll come back to that later.

[00:18:36] And then there is now the brand that answers the question.

[00:18:41] Do I belong here?

[00:18:43] So in this world of DEI, where people think diversity, equity and inclusion are boxes to check, and they don't truly understand the power of diversity in creating a competitive and leverageable advantage for your firm.

[00:19:01] And I say, do I belong here?

[00:19:03] Because really belonging is the most important part of it.

[00:19:06] Diversity just gets us in the door.

[00:19:09] Equity gives us an equal voice.

[00:19:11] That's good.

[00:19:12] Inclusion gets us a seat at the table better yet.

[00:19:14] But if we don't feel we belong, then we're likely not going to feel psychologically safe enough to be vulnerable enough to give our very best.

[00:19:24] We're just going to be happy to be in the room where it happens.

[00:19:26] So I looked at the total brand in four parts, personal, internal, external, and employer brand that all have to be aligned like the four circle then diagram outlined in my book.

[00:19:40] It's not linear.

[00:19:41] We don't go from A to B to C to D.

[00:19:44] It's all got to be integrated, all revolving around purposeful growth.

[00:19:48] So what's the purpose of our firm and how do we grow up into it as an aligned team?

[00:19:56] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend Mark Pfeffer and his show, People Tech.

[00:20:03] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM, that's the show you need to listen to.

[00:20:15] Go to the Work Defined Network, search up People Tech, Mark Pfeffer.

[00:20:20] You can find them anywhere.

[00:20:24] Amazing.

[00:20:26] I love the stuff that you just dropped some knowledge on us and I'll take over, try to take some copious notes to make sure I'm getting all this down.

[00:20:34] I'm going to also purchase the book on an audible.

[00:20:37] I'm more of a listener than a reader myself, but I'm going to purchase it because Brian was really just telling me how impactful it's been for him so far.

[00:20:45] And he's the only six chapters, six or seven chapters in him, like you said.

[00:20:48] You know what you can do, William is I just today announced on giving Tuesday, a special offer that if someone buys a copy of my book in any form, I will gift them a code for a free audio book.

[00:21:03] Oh, nice.

[00:21:05] If your partner Brian just bought one, all he has to do is go back to the thread that just went out today and post a picture, a little selfie of him with his book.

[00:21:14] And then he will qualify and I will DM him a code for the audio book.

[00:21:21] Now he can keep it for himself or if he's truly a good partner, he'll forward it on to you and that will be your Christmas present.

[00:21:30] How does that start?

[00:21:31] There you go.

[00:21:31] That sounds great.

[00:21:33] Score.

[00:21:34] Yes.

[00:21:34] Yep.

[00:21:35] Score.

[00:21:35] Amazing that so many people, when I wrote the book and I thought I'd never write one book here, I'm working on my second, but Mark, I'm just not a reader.

[00:21:43] If you had it in an audio book, I consume podcasts on my commute or I listen to audio books when I'm on the road on vacation or wherever, or I'm out walking or just, I just absorb it better that way.

[00:21:57] So I went and recorded one last year and I thought writing a book was the hardest thing I'd ever done.

[00:22:04] Recording an audio book.

[00:22:06] Wow.

[00:22:07] You did the audio yourself?

[00:22:08] Yeah, I did.

[00:22:10] Oh, that's great.

[00:22:10] I wanted to complete the creative process.

[00:22:13] I didn't want some Goldie Throat voice actor to do it.

[00:22:17] Although given my voice, I should've.

[00:22:20] I think you got a great voice.

[00:22:21] But I wanted to complete the process and say, you know what?

[00:22:23] I wrote every word, uh, had an editor for grammar, but I wrote every word in the book and I said every word in the audio book.

[00:22:32] And whether it's right or it's wrong, it's good or it's bad.

[00:22:35] I own it.

[00:22:36] I think actually pretty proud of the way it came out.

[00:22:38] I didn't mean to interrupt you, William.

[00:22:39] And you were going to ask a question.

[00:22:41] No.

[00:22:41] No, I was good.

[00:22:42] I was just saying I'm taking copious notes and I'm just excited to, to learn more about what's inside of the book.

[00:22:50] And I know Brian, we do have some questions for you, but I know Brian's questions are first and that I do have some questions for you lined up.

[00:22:58] So Brian, you want to go ahead?

[00:23:00] Yeah, for sure.

[00:23:01] One of the, one of the first ones, I'm going to go off a little track here, but because you said it, can you break down the brands for us again?

[00:23:11] Personal is easy to understand.

[00:23:13] It's you, it's us, right?

[00:23:14] Personal brand.

[00:23:15] Correct.

[00:23:16] Internal brand.

[00:23:17] Do you mean in the internal brand in a company?

[00:23:20] Yeah.

[00:23:20] Is that company culture?

[00:23:21] Maybe it is, but we're going to talk about the importance of words.

[00:23:25] Now I got enough knowledge in my journalism and mass communications background to really dig into words.

[00:23:33] And I believe words matter at KU.

[00:23:35] We had a legendary professor named John Bremner, who specialty was editing, but he actually wrote a book called words on words.

[00:23:45] No way.

[00:23:46] So he looked into the etymology of words and the meaning behind this and where they came from and why they're important.

[00:23:53] It's up to how words are either misunderstood or often overused.

[00:23:58] And so one of those is culture.

[00:23:59] I believe that we have the ability to go better and do better than culture.

[00:24:07] You think about it, a culture may just be a place.

[00:24:10] Someone feels merely a part of that's not, but a community is a word I'd prefer.

[00:24:17] A community is a place.

[00:24:18] Someone feels they belong in notice that word belong.

[00:24:22] If you feel you belong, think about the community.

[00:24:26] You may be right.

[00:24:27] Right.

[00:24:27] Whether it's your business community, whether it's your church, whether it's a sports team that you play on.

[00:24:33] Uh, but there, there are, there are roles that you play where you feel valued as a member of the community.

[00:24:40] And when you feel valued, you tend to do better.

[00:24:45] You'll speak up and you'll give of your very best.

[00:24:48] The internal brand is a collection of all that, but it starts with the personal brand.

[00:24:55] I'm a little older than you guys.

[00:24:57] And back in my day, we were basically told, don't bring that weak crap it here.

[00:25:01] I don't want to hear about your personal life.

[00:25:03] I don't want to hear about you talking about, you know, religion or politics, just get your work done.

[00:25:09] Keep your nose to grindstone and come back tomorrow and do it all again.

[00:25:14] Almost in that tone.

[00:25:16] And where's exact words?

[00:25:18] I'm just saying.

[00:25:18] In other words, I think, and younger people have gotten more free to be who they are.

[00:25:23] And you'll even hear certain coaches.

[00:25:26] I live in Kansas city, the home of the Kansas city chiefs.

[00:25:29] Andy Reed.

[00:25:30] Andy Reed.

[00:25:31] Watch his players be express their personality.

[00:25:36] To, to a point.

[00:25:37] Most people see Travis Kelsey today and they see him saying the right things.

[00:25:43] He was young in his career.

[00:25:44] He was a bit of a hothead.

[00:25:46] And when you would push Andy just to the brink, we don't want to do that in the workplace, but we do want to express our personality because that's what makes us.

[00:25:56] Be authentic.

[00:25:57] Yeah.

[00:25:57] When I talk about diversity, I talk about it in terms of total diversity.

[00:26:02] Well, what's that mean?

[00:26:04] Yes.

[00:26:04] Thank you.

[00:26:04] What does that mean?

[00:26:05] Right.

[00:26:05] Because most people think diversity is what I refer to as outward diversity.

[00:26:10] It's maybe our gender, our race, creed, color, our political affiliation, maybe, or our sexual orientation or preference, maybe our religious orientation or not.

[00:26:22] Maybe, but those things are part of who we are and part of where we come from.

[00:26:27] And they're very important, but you don't stop there.

[00:26:30] The inner diversity, now think of this as a bit of a kind of a yin-yang symbol, right?

[00:26:37] It's the melding of the two together that creates total diversity.

[00:26:41] Inner diversity is how we think and then how we share ideas that benefit the team.

[00:26:48] Because that's the only way you get true value added diversity is if the team wins.

[00:26:53] And the team can't win if you're in the room where it happens and you've been given an equal voice and you don't use it, right?

[00:27:01] Because you maybe fear recrimination.

[00:27:03] What if I say something stupid and they throw me out of this room that I worked so hard to get into?

[00:27:07] Right.

[00:27:08] So that's why if you build a community of belonging, people are going to feel safe to bring their best.

[00:27:14] Even if it's not the greatest idea I've seen it, it could be, you know what?

[00:27:19] Um, it's like the improv comedy group who uses an approach called yes.

[00:27:24] And yeah, and it could also be this.

[00:27:29] Oh, that just took an idea and made it better.

[00:27:32] But you were the catalyst that started that.

[00:27:35] And if you wouldn't have said what you said, who knows if we would ever have gotten to that big idea that could prove businesses that could help change careers and lives.

[00:27:47] And I think that's really the most important part is we as leaders have to be able to create communities where people feel they belong in and not just cultures, which means maybe we bring in a food truck once a month, or maybe we have a happy hour.

[00:28:03] We celebrate birthdays.

[00:28:04] All those are good things.

[00:28:05] Don't get me wrong.

[00:28:07] That's not what I'm talking about.

[00:28:08] And to the whole love model that has become now the sequel to this book in a bit, because I really want to hit on that.

[00:28:15] But I want to make sure I'd go through the leaf growth model and what is in the purposeful growth revolution that you're reading now.

[00:28:22] Cause it really serves us the foundation for where is the future of work going?

[00:28:28] And how do we move someone from a doer to a manager and a manager to a leader and a leader to grow into a living legacy builder where they have the ability to pay it backwards and help others along their growth journey.

[00:28:45] Absolutely.

[00:28:46] Love it.

[00:28:47] So one of the things that I wanted to ask is what was one of the biggest lessons you learned working in the C-suite?

[00:28:53] Oh boy.

[00:28:54] There's so many.

[00:28:56] I think it molded and shaped my leadership stuff to be more of a servant leader because I had some really great role models.

[00:29:07] And one of them was David Novak when he was the head of marketing at Pizza Hut and I was in marketing and working with him.

[00:29:15] I never say anybody works for me.

[00:29:17] I say you work with me and now I actually change it to say I work for you.

[00:29:21] And that's what a servant leader does.

[00:29:25] Okay.

[00:29:26] And let me break it down.

[00:29:27] Where does it come from?

[00:29:28] It has to start with humility.

[00:29:31] One thing I've learned in the C-suite, there's a lot of smart people, but I would ever admit they were wrong.

[00:29:38] There's not a sense of humility.

[00:29:40] There's a sense of I've got mine.

[00:29:44] I worked hard to get here and I don't want to show a chink in my armor.

[00:29:48] If I admit that maybe I was wrong on that decision or I made the wrong call in that situation.

[00:29:53] And so there's a lot of defensiveness and protectiveness instead of humility, which is, you know what?

[00:30:03] I don't know at all.

[00:30:04] And asking good questions.

[00:30:06] And I didn't start off this way.

[00:30:09] I learned.

[00:30:10] I had some caring mentors say, Mark, you need to ask more questions.

[00:30:14] You don't have to be the smartest guy in the room.

[00:30:17] As a matter of fact, you're probably not.

[00:30:20] And they would be right.

[00:30:22] Don't act like you have to prove yourself.

[00:30:25] You've already got the job.

[00:30:28] Now what I want you to do is work well as a team.

[00:30:32] And if you work well as a team, you've got to be humble.

[00:30:35] And that doesn't just mean in an aw shucks way, self deprecating.

[00:30:39] Why?

[00:30:39] That means the humility to know that I don't know it all.

[00:30:42] And I don't have to.

[00:30:44] I shouldn't, but I have to be willing to serve others.

[00:30:48] And by serving others, I'm getting the best out of them while they're getting the best out of me.

[00:30:55] And I have been in some tremendous C-suites.

[00:30:57] I will tell you probably the best example was when I was the senior VP of marketing or chief marketing officer for the cheesecake bar.

[00:31:07] That was such a respectful culture.

[00:31:10] Everybody in that room cared deeply about the brand and total brand.

[00:31:17] It's team members, it's guests, not customers, cause words matter.

[00:31:22] And I learned that brought me the hard way.

[00:31:25] David Overton, another mentor who's the founder and CEO and chairman of the Cheesecake Factory.

[00:31:32] He had people go through Rich Carlton trade about ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen, because he said, we know we've got great food.

[00:31:40] We spend a lot of time perfecting our recipes and nothing's ever good.

[00:31:45] While we have two different times a year that we launched new annual items.

[00:31:49] And they also take time out to refine and refresh existing recipes that he doesn't deem are as good as they can be.

[00:31:58] So that level, that level of excellence that will never achieve it.

[00:32:03] That's where humility comes in.

[00:32:04] And here's a guy that is worth more money than you and I could even count.

[00:32:10] Right?

[00:32:10] He doesn't have to work as hard as he does every day, but I know for a fact, he's still doing it.

[00:32:16] And when I was there, he would, was well known for carrying around a stack of four or five different yellow badge.

[00:32:23] All with hand scratch notes on different areas of the business that could be improved.

[00:32:31] And I was able to learn from David Novak, how to inspire people that big ideas move businesses and reward and recognition became his calling card.

[00:32:43] David Novak then became the co-founder and CEO of Yum Brands when, oh wow.

[00:32:50] Co divested the restaurant group, Pizza Hut, KMC and Taco Bell.

[00:32:54] The big part of his leadership style was reward and recognition.

[00:32:59] And I remember back at Pizza Hut, when I worked in that department, he had what was called the silver pan award that was given out once a month to somebody in marketing that the values and came up with a big idea that moved

[00:33:13] the business.

[00:33:14] And I remember one month when I was called to the front of the room and he was telling everybody

[00:33:21] as to why I was selected that month to win the silver pan awards.

[00:33:25] It was a dinky little pan, probably didn't cost more than two or three bucks, but etched on that was my name and the month and all that kind of good stuff.

[00:33:34] I believe I still have it in my garage store box.

[00:33:37] It was that meaningful to me so that when it became my turn to lead, then I use that same approach to reward and recognition.

[00:33:46] I will never measure up to David.

[00:33:49] He would take a picture of everybody.

[00:33:50] David.

[00:33:51] Now there was the silver pan award became the cheese hat award, um, or pizza, the rubber chicken award for KFC.

[00:34:01] And I think the sauce packet award for Taco Bell.

[00:34:03] And he took pictures with all the winners, but instead of just giving them to them, he proudly displayed them in his office in Louisville, Kentucky.

[00:34:13] And when he couldn't have any more room on the walls, he put them on the ceiling.

[00:34:17] And when he wanted a room on the ceiling, he put them up and down the hallways leading into his office.

[00:34:23] Wow.

[00:34:24] It became part of his leadership style, much like David Overton at the Cheesecake Factory.

[00:34:32] Leadership style was always reaching higher for excellence and challenging each of us.

[00:34:40] So those were the good things that I learned in the C-suite that I've incorporated into my own leadership style.

[00:34:46] And some days I'm better than others.

[00:34:48] But I also learned from some stinkers who were truly bosses.

[00:34:53] And I learned that's not who I wanted to be.

[00:34:56] Yep.

[00:34:57] So it's a little of both actually, Brian, but mostly the good.

[00:35:01] And to me, that's what has now given me the impetus to want to pay it backward to help others along their growth journey, avoid some of the stinkers that I had grow into not only a leader, but a legacy builder.

[00:35:14] And that is how you will be measured.

[00:35:19] Nobody will remember what your revenue was in the third quarter of 2017.

[00:35:25] But American poet Maya Angelou once said, I've learned people will forget what you said.

[00:35:33] People will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

[00:35:39] And one of the satisfying aspects of looking back and again, I made many mistakes along the way.

[00:35:45] But when I'll see somebody at a conference or someone will reach out to me and tell me that they remembered this or they appreciated this about what I did for them.

[00:35:55] Most of the time I didn't remember it.

[00:35:57] But the point is, as a leader, you're always under a microscope.

[00:36:03] People are watching everything you do, everything you say, and they look up to you and you have to earn it.

[00:36:10] That's why I say a boss is merely a title on a business card for area.

[00:36:14] If you truly are a boss, right?

[00:36:16] Look up the etymology of the word boss.

[00:36:20] And it's not pretty.

[00:36:22] So when people just throw it out like that, they don't truly understand the underpinnings of where it came from in history.

[00:36:29] And likewise, when you look at leader, it's a leader because that person has to earn it every single day.

[00:36:39] Right.

[00:36:39] You don't get to call yourself a leader.

[00:36:41] You've got to, it's how you show up and how you treat people.

[00:36:45] They will call you a leader.

[00:36:47] That's right.

[00:36:47] That's awesome.

[00:36:49] Can I ask you a question here?

[00:36:50] I'm going to, I'm going to ask a question, Brian, because.

[00:36:53] Yeah, go for it.

[00:36:53] You mentioned something, Mark, about paying it backwards.

[00:36:58] Paying it backward.

[00:36:59] Yeah.

[00:36:59] Can you please explain what that is?

[00:37:02] Can you do it?

[00:37:03] Yeah.

[00:37:03] It's, it's, uh, again, one of those phrases that most people will say, Mark, isn't it?

[00:37:07] Pay it forward.

[00:37:08] I think there was even a bad movie with Adam Sandler.

[00:37:11] Yeah.

[00:37:12] It's called pay it forward.

[00:37:13] Right.

[00:37:14] Yeah.

[00:37:14] So it's in lexicon commonly used, but I like to look at things almost like looking at light through a prism.

[00:37:20] And if you twist it a different way, you'll get a different light pattern.

[00:37:24] And so where it came to me as an epitome was not only am I a growth junkie, I love growth in all of its forms, but I'm a coffee junkie.

[00:37:33] And other than my favorite local coffee shop or shout out.

[00:37:38] I'm a huge Starbucks fan.

[00:37:40] I have been literally since it started years and years ago.

[00:37:44] And when I go to Starbucks, I'll go through the drive through and I'll pay for the car behind me.

[00:37:51] When I get up to the window and I'll ask him, can I pay for the car?

[00:37:54] And I'll say, Oh, that's so nice of you.

[00:37:55] And I said, just do me a favor and tell them, God bless you.

[00:38:00] Your debt has been paid.

[00:38:02] And then I'll drive away and I'll say a silent prayer for them.

[00:38:06] I don't know them.

[00:38:07] I don't know what they're going through that day.

[00:38:09] They don't know me, but I got to believe that in that moment, they feel valued.

[00:38:16] They feel seen and that they matter to somebody who they'll never meet.

[00:38:22] Right.

[00:38:23] And there is something called the law of reciprocity.

[00:38:26] And it says, basically, if someone does something nice for you, you feel a deep seated urge to do something nice for someone else.

[00:38:35] And oftentimes in greater measure.

[00:38:37] So now imagine the people in that car talking about what just happened.

[00:38:43] The barista in the window talking about what just happened.

[00:38:46] And I've heard that it often is a catalytic event that starts a chain reaction.

[00:38:52] So it's not just me paying it backward because I can't physically pay for the car in front of me.

[00:38:58] They've already gone.

[00:38:59] So I can't pay it forward, but I can pay it backward.

[00:39:03] And that creates this ripple effect, that law of reciprocity.

[00:39:08] And I'm told that it happens where the car behind me, who I was generous to decided they would do likewise.

[00:39:15] They would do likewise and they would do likewise.

[00:39:18] So it really is paying it backward when you start and think about it and don't just take words or phrases on face value the way a lot of people do.

[00:39:30] Wow.

[00:39:32] All right.

[00:39:32] Been mad to that?

[00:39:33] You know, I love it.

[00:39:35] So, so tell us about this, about the book leaf.

[00:39:38] What does leaf mean?

[00:39:39] What does a leaf have to do with purposeful growth revolution in the business world?

[00:39:43] It seems at a glance, it seems like a business book.

[00:39:46] It's both.

[00:39:47] It's designed to create an intersection between personal and professional growth that inspires individuals, teams and organizations to find purpose in fulfilling their true growth potential.

[00:39:59] And in doing so help make the world a little better.

[00:40:02] Right.

[00:40:03] And it fits my purpose statement that I wrote.

[00:40:08] I don't know how many years ago, but says, I don't want to just make money and retire.

[00:40:12] I want to make a difference and inspire.

[00:40:15] And that means making a difference to the lives of others, inspiring them to want to do likewise.

[00:40:18] And while I believe I always had that ethos, it really hit home on February 21st, 2013.

[00:40:29] At the time I was the president of about a half a billion dollar casual dining restaurant concept that was owned by a food company that had its own restaurant company.

[00:40:44] It's on food products group and was publicly traded.

[00:40:46] And I was recruited from the cheesecake factory to come and become president and chief concept officer with three key goals.

[00:40:55] Turn the brand around.

[00:40:57] It's double digit negative in sales.

[00:41:00] Research and put out there a refreshed contemporary brand positioning that we can rally around and create a concept extension that could earn the right to grow through capital.

[00:41:15] We're a publicly traded company.

[00:41:16] We've got money to spend, but we need to be able to spend it behind the winning horse.

[00:41:20] Right.

[00:41:21] Right.

[00:41:21] So I'm a competitive son of a gun and I decide, you know, I never would have left the cheesecake factory otherwise, but here was a chance for the top job.

[00:41:29] Here was a chance to lead a turnaround.

[00:41:32] Here was a chance to build a team and create a vision and use all of the skills and abilities and talents and experiences I've gained to this point and get us across the finish line.

[00:41:44] And I believe at the time in something called the rule of threes, which says essentially, if you focus on three things, you're going to have better results.

[00:41:55] My three things were leadership engagement and accountability.

[00:42:00] And I would use them in as a monitor, literally with every communication.

[00:42:07] I'd say Williams doing a wonderful job of leadership.

[00:42:10] Look what his team is accomplishing or Brian is engaging his team on a deeper level and look what they're doing.

[00:42:17] Or William is holding his team accountable for results.

[00:42:21] And look what they're doing to turn around sales in their restaurants.

[00:42:24] Right.

[00:42:25] Leadership engagement and accountability.

[00:42:27] Everybody knew it.

[00:42:28] It was part of my own recognition and reward platform, and it was working until I got a fateful call from the CEO who said, Mark, the board has decided to move in a different direction.

[00:42:44] Instead of giving you the capital to grow that we promised you and we recruited you from the cheesecake factory and you promised other people who joined the team, they feel like you guys have turned this around faster than they thought.

[00:42:55] And they want to strike while the iron's held.

[00:42:57] But don't worry, you're going to lead the sales process.

[00:42:59] And if we don't find the right buyer or don't get the right multiple, we're going to keep the brand and nothing's going to change.

[00:43:07] You know what you should know?

[00:43:09] You should know the You Should Know podcast.

[00:43:12] That's what you should know.

[00:43:14] Because then you'd be in the know on all things that are timely and topical.

[00:43:18] Subscribe to the You Should Know podcast.

[00:43:21] Thanks.

[00:43:22] And I'm like, oh, okay.

[00:43:25] Oh, and you can't tell anybody.

[00:43:26] So this was in Southern California.

[00:43:29] The offices were in Orange County.

[00:43:30] I lived in Valencia.

[00:43:32] So if you know anything about LA, it's huge, right?

[00:43:36] That part you do know, but you may not know where Valencia is.

[00:43:39] It's north and downtown and Orange County is south and west of downtown.

[00:43:43] So this would have been a two hour and 15, two hour and 30 minute commute each way.

[00:43:48] Couldn't do that.

[00:43:49] And I decided I'm committed to this opportunity.

[00:43:54] I will get a hotel.

[00:43:55] There was a Hilton right across the street, John Wayne Airport and literally.

[00:43:59] Caddy corner to our offices.

[00:44:01] So Sunday night after dinner and putting the kids to bed, I would drive down to the hotel, work a long day, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday.

[00:44:11] And about the time rush hour abated somewhat, which it hardly ever does.

[00:44:16] But before road construction, which is key.

[00:44:19] I remember it's worse than road construction because they're shutting down lanes, right?

[00:44:23] Because that's when they do road constructions at night.

[00:44:25] I would then come home that Thursday night and be around for my family, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

[00:44:30] That's when I wasn't in Ohio where the parent company was based traveling there for board meetings, conference calls, follow up meetings, you name it.

[00:44:40] Or in one of our 145 restaurants in 24 states.

[00:44:44] Wow.

[00:44:44] So what I learned through this process was, yeah, a sacrifice is being made, but look what we're doing.

[00:44:53] Isn't this a noble career defining moment if we succeed?

[00:44:57] And we did everything we were asked to do.

[00:45:00] We accomplished.

[00:45:02] We turned the brand around within two years, double digit negative sales to positive.

[00:45:06] We crafted a brand new brand positioning that was contemporary that we all could rally around new menu, new uniforms, new design decor.

[00:45:15] And we put a concept extension that created a new growth platform for the future.

[00:45:22] And so we found a buyer and instead of it being a private equity firm, which God forbid, we know what happens when they get involved.

[00:45:31] We found a strategic play, someone that we thought would be our perfect parent or the rightful owner of this concept.

[00:45:38] And that would take it and fulfill the promises that were made from the prior parent that after a long courtship, the deal closed on a Friday.

[00:45:47] Uh, we're drinking champagne, celebrating over the weekend, Monday morning at eight o'clock.

[00:45:53] I'm scheduled to meet with the new CEO to plot our new future together at eight oh five.

[00:45:57] I'm not the door.

[00:45:58] We've decided to move in our direction.

[00:46:01] I'm like, what over the weekend?

[00:46:03] Unremievable.

[00:46:04] I did five minutes to grab whatever I can throw in the box and have my assistant throw the rest in a box and shut it to me later.

[00:46:11] But I'm like, wow.

[00:46:12] Well, again, this was February 21st, 2013, just a little over 10 years ago.

[00:46:16] And at the end of February in Southern California, not other places, certainly not Kansas city where I live.

[00:46:25] That's about the sun, the time, the first signs of spring start to emerge.

[00:46:31] And after a fitful night of sleep, I take the dog out back to do his business.

[00:46:35] And in the backyard, we had a fig tree that was barren from the four or five or six weeks of winter that we do get in Southern California.

[00:46:42] And guys, as God is my witness, as the sun was coming up over the wall in that backyard, it's showing on that fig tree.

[00:46:49] And on the end of one branch was this tiny little green sprig of a leaf to starting to emerge.

[00:46:57] And I got this epiphany right then that a leaf is a symbol of growth and rebirth.

[00:47:03] And I took the dog inside because this was bugging me all of a sudden, you know how you hear it's always darkest before the dawn that happened for me.

[00:47:10] You have no idea what that day and night was for someone who had put himself as well as his whole team, who also got let go within two weeks through a ringer to again accomplish this noble goal.

[00:47:25] That we all could be proud of together.

[00:47:28] Yep.

[00:47:29] And I got to thinking something was missing with the rule of threes, but we need leadership.

[00:47:33] We need engagement.

[00:47:34] We need accountability.

[00:47:35] But what's missing for me?

[00:47:37] It hit me like a ton of bricks fulfillment.

[00:47:41] And I wrote it down, but we weren't very fulfilled.

[00:47:45] We were chasing numbers for the sake of numbers.

[00:47:47] We were all soccer.

[00:47:48] Well, at the end of the day, the rug got pulled out from underneath us.

[00:47:51] We didn't get to get the spoils of victory.

[00:47:55] And as I wrote it down, I then said, oh my gosh, a leaf is not only a symbol of growth and rebirth.

[00:48:01] It's a metaphor which stands for leadership, engagement, accountability, and fulfillment.

[00:48:06] And I drew this four circle then diagram thinking about that fig tree in my backyard, that its purpose is to grow fig leaves.

[00:48:17] As we all learned probably in middle school, I might've been asleep that day, but I think I remember that all growth happens through the leaf of a plant or a tree to the magic of photosynthesis.

[00:48:27] Right.

[00:48:27] Mm-hmm .

[00:48:28] And then as I was thinking about that, that not only does that fig tree only know how to be a fig tree, it can't be a maple.

[00:48:36] It can't be an oak.

[00:48:37] Its purpose is to be a fig tree that not only grow fig leaves to help it grow sturdy and strong, but also to bear fig fruit.

[00:48:46] And not only is fig fruit sustenance for people, I love me some fig jam, and wools.

[00:48:51] If you cut it open, you'll see there are seeds inside that could be scattered for future growth.

[00:48:57] That is when I got this whole idea of the purposeful growth revolution.

[00:49:02] As the word revolution has three definitions, an uprising of the people, a dramatic change in the status quo, and an object encircling another.

[00:49:13] And I got this idea.

[00:49:16] I started working on a treatment on my computer and started talking to different people.

[00:49:19] So all of a sudden I got this sense of adrenaline and I got to thinking instead of the rule of threes, isn't there something different out there that I could latch onto?

[00:49:30] And there is, it's called the higher power force.

[00:49:33] Wow.

[00:49:34] Think about it.

[00:49:34] There's four seasons, not three.

[00:49:37] Mm-hmm .

[00:49:37] We wish there were winter, but if we didn't get winter, we wouldn't have spring.

[00:49:41] You have to have all four seasons.

[00:49:43] There are four directions, not three.

[00:49:45] There are four chambers to the human heart, not three.

[00:49:48] There are four elements to an atom, the source of all life, not three.

[00:49:53] And I could go on and on with this foreplay, but you get the idea.

[00:49:56] As you probably have read.

[00:49:57] You got a whole list in the book.

[00:49:59] It's all look of them.

[00:49:59] Right.

[00:49:59] And actually my editor made me cut a couple of other pages.

[00:50:03] Oh.

[00:50:03] And so the higher power of fours got me to this model of the four-shuckle band diagram.

[00:50:10] And I'm not going to say it's the, well, I will be all end all for everything, but it fits a lot of things.

[00:50:15] And as a different aspects of belief, leadership has four sub components.

[00:50:21] Leadership represents the seed and root of that brand or that tree.

[00:50:28] And that leads to alignment.

[00:50:31] And there are four C's.

[00:50:32] There's clarity, there's connection, there's communication, and there's commitment that goes through that leadership element that's connected to engagement.

[00:50:42] Engaging one's heart, head, hands, and habits.

[00:50:44] And the engaging aspect of the tree is its trunk, branches, and system of nourishment, which I learned is called savia.

[00:50:53] That in Spanish translates to English is lifeblood.

[00:50:56] Well, what's the lifeblood of any organization?

[00:50:58] It's people.

[00:51:00] Engagement leads to empowerment.

[00:51:02] And we know that empowered teams are more profitable teams.

[00:51:06] That then leads to accountability.

[00:51:08] Well, again, that fig tree's accountability is the leaf and it's the fruit.

[00:51:13] Like in an organization, here's about your achievement.

[00:51:18] Like, how do we measure what matters most?

[00:51:21] So outcomes or obstacles.

[00:51:23] What happens when we're off plan or something major happens?

[00:51:27] Well, I don't know.

[00:51:28] COVID or outliers.

[00:51:31] Who can we study that's going to help us do what we currently do the best of our ability and then obsolescence, which you want to avoid by innovation.

[00:51:40] Seeing around the corner to say what's next so we can keep this train moving.

[00:51:43] Does anyone know what happened to blockbuster video?

[00:51:47] Blackberry, even codec.

[00:51:49] Innovate or die.

[00:51:50] High flyers, circuit city that were leaders in their category, but didn't innovate and died.

[00:51:56] Right.

[00:51:57] So then it leads to fulfillment.

[00:52:00] Ah, this is the delicate nurturing ecosystem, the soil, the sun, the rain that allows photosynthesis to occur, to get the full value out of that plant or that person.

[00:52:13] If they're in a community.

[00:52:15] Right.

[00:52:15] And that's all about environment.

[00:52:18] So it's the people, it's the place, the processes and the performance that ties it all together.

[00:52:24] And so now you've got this leaf growth model.

[00:52:28] And then the goal is always to scatter your seeds, to help others along their growth journey.

[00:52:34] And so why I say it's about inspiring individuals, teams and organizations to find purpose in fulfilling their true growth potential.

[00:52:42] I could stop there, but I say, and by doing so make a positive lasting difference in the world.

[00:52:49] And I say that because all of this, the stuff going on in the world, governments have proven ineffective at getting after and solving these religious organizations.

[00:53:00] And, and nonprofits can only do so much, but businesses actually have the resources and the wherewithal to make changes that are necessary to sustain our planet and our way of life long into the future.

[00:53:14] So we don't become obsolete.

[00:53:16] Right.

[00:53:17] Yeah.

[00:53:18] Which is why I'm proud to be a member of the senior leader network of conscious capitalism incorporated, which is a global organization whose mission was very much aligned with mine.

[00:53:29] And that's elevating humanity through business.

[00:53:32] And that's what I talk about throughout the book is it's not just about profit, it's purpose and profit and a purpose leads to profit.

[00:53:42] And so many don't see it that way.

[00:53:44] They just see it's a bottom line business.

[00:53:46] We don't have time.

[00:53:47] You know, Bambi Pambi feel loving tree hugging.

[00:53:52] Yep.

[00:53:52] Very, very candy.

[00:53:54] Mark.

[00:53:54] We're, we're, we're a lot of mine business.

[00:53:56] We're publicly traded.

[00:53:57] We get investors.

[00:53:58] Yeah.

[00:53:59] I know I've had P and L responsibility, but I'll tell you when you align behind a powerful, common shared purpose, all of a sudden, oh, let's look at our four stakeholders.

[00:54:13] Our team members.

[00:54:14] They're going to want to come work for us.

[00:54:16] They're going to want to give more discretionary effort.

[00:54:19] They're going to want to be more engaged.

[00:54:21] They're not going to want to quietly quit.

[00:54:22] They're going to have a stake in the outcome and they're going to feel a sense of empowerment.

[00:54:27] Right.

[00:54:28] Our guests or customers or clients.

[00:54:31] If you're a meet at me, they're attracted to companies that want to give back in the community that have better quality products that are more sustainable that allow them to feel good about the purchase.

[00:54:42] Remember how I said external brand and marketing and sales is really all about value exchange.

[00:54:47] What do I get for?

[00:54:47] What do I pay?

[00:54:48] But it's most important.

[00:54:49] What do I feel like as a result of that?

[00:54:52] How do I feel?

[00:54:53] Yeah.

[00:54:54] And that's what I feel like.

[00:54:54] People will pay more for.

[00:54:55] They'll buy more for a product or service they feel is aligned with their values.

[00:55:03] Right?

[00:55:04] Your business partners, I didn't say just shareholders or investors, but your business partners are anyone in your business ecosystem.

[00:55:11] They could be manufacturing partners, supplier partners, distributor partners, agency partners.

[00:55:16] Notice I say the word partners a lot because I have worked with companies that supported our brands and we wouldn't be where we were without them.

[00:55:25] And by sharing our vision with them and making them feel like they're an owner with us, we're going to get their best work.

[00:55:32] And oftentimes these companies have greater resources than we can afford on our own.

[00:55:37] And they have their own research labs or in the restaurant world, their own test kitchens or research they could get a hold of to give to us.

[00:55:45] And then our communities giving back in our communities, it makes everybody feel better.

[00:55:51] And that's the idea behind the book.

[00:55:56] I love it.

[00:55:58] Yep.

[00:55:58] Yep.

[00:55:59] And I, and, and for the listeners, I could absolutely attest that it, it is as good as he frames it.

[00:56:06] The book is great.

[00:56:07] It's an easy read.

[00:56:09] It doesn't seem like it should be so easy, but it's a really easy read.

[00:56:14] And, but it does, you do cover complex topics that are pulled hard, hard pull.

[00:56:20] Like it has, like you said, it has a little bit of everything in there.

[00:56:23] And again, great job.

[00:56:25] And I can't wait to finish it.

[00:56:26] Thank you.

[00:56:26] I really appreciate that, Brian.

[00:56:28] And when you, when you put yourself out there and you mentioned mind shut, I have a whole chapter devoted to get the thud out.

[00:56:35] Yeah.

[00:56:35] Fear, uncertainty, doubt, and delay.

[00:56:39] Wow.

[00:56:40] If you don't think I had fear, I've never written a book before.

[00:56:43] What if I fail?

[00:56:44] What if it's not any good?

[00:56:46] What if it tarnishes the reputation I've worked so hard to build and in the industry?

[00:56:51] The uncertainty, am I willing to risk an unsatisfying status quo, even though a comfortable C-level experience to give that up for something I feel called for?

[00:57:04] Remember this idea came to me, February of 2013.

[00:57:09] It chased me for a lot of years because I wasn't certain that I had takes to go from corporate America team guy to solopreneur with actually three employees, me, myself, and I.

[00:57:23] And awkward one.

[00:57:25] Awkward one.

[00:57:26] Awkward one.

[00:57:26] We don't get along, so I'm sure how well that works.

[00:57:29] Um, it's a leap of faith.

[00:57:31] And then you have this, the doubts to creep in and wet cement.

[00:57:36] They, they start to harden if you give them power.

[00:57:39] Nobody knows who I am.

[00:57:41] I'm not some rock star CEO that's on the cover of magazines and featured on Fox news or business or whatever.

[00:57:48] Right.

[00:57:49] And then it leads to delay.

[00:57:51] Right.

[00:57:52] Yeah.

[00:57:52] And you just put it off and say, I think this is good, but I don't know if it's great.

[00:57:56] And I should be doing this.

[00:57:58] I should, and you should all over yourself.

[00:58:00] Wow.

[00:58:01] And, but finally I realized in going through this final leg of the journey that I had the antidote and I knew it all along.

[00:58:11] And the antidote to FUD is that faith is greater than fear.

[00:58:19] Yes.

[00:58:19] Not the faith in a higher power, but the faith in you, the faith in your idea.

[00:58:24] Yeah.

[00:58:24] And then hope is greater than uncertain.

[00:58:27] It said that hope is not a strategy.

[00:58:29] I think it's BS.

[00:58:30] Yes.

[00:58:30] I think hope with action is you don't take action.

[00:58:33] You're just dreaming.

[00:58:34] And then you're right.

[00:58:35] It's not good.

[00:58:36] Uh, but hope of that richly imagined future.

[00:58:39] So for all of you who are entrepreneurs out there, maybe I've gone through the same FUD.

[00:58:43] How do you picture your life to look like at some point in the future?

[00:58:50] And then what actions do you have to take every day to get there?

[00:58:54] Knowing it's not a linear straight headline.

[00:58:56] It's going to zig.

[00:58:57] It's going to zag.

[00:58:58] You're going to go two steps forward, three steps back, three steps forward, two steps back.

[00:59:02] I know I did it.

[00:59:04] Right.

[00:59:05] But then now you're building up a belief system.

[00:59:08] I can do this.

[00:59:09] I am worthy of success.

[00:59:10] I no longer have those doubts that, that creep in the back of my voice.

[00:59:14] Or if I do, I know how to get myself out of the funk.

[00:59:17] Right.

[00:59:18] Out of the FUD.

[00:59:20] And then to take action.

[00:59:21] Indeed.

[00:59:22] Purposeful action will overcome the paralysis of delay.

[00:59:26] And I know when I was going through times, it was like Mark, when you feel like you're walking

[00:59:31] through hell, keep walking, moving forward.

[00:59:33] And all of a sudden you'll accomplish something maybe small.

[00:59:37] And then something a little bigger.

[00:59:39] And then all of a sudden the weight is layer by layer.

[00:59:42] It's taken off your shoulders and you feel lighter.

[00:59:45] And so that's something I just want to make sure that I express to your viewers and listeners

[00:59:49] is get the FUD out, but know there's an antidote, right?

[00:59:54] It's not just about buck up, not just about, I'm going to go listen to some shelf help,

[00:59:58] this and that, and get myself a little sugar or a little candy.

[01:00:01] That's going to give me a boost of adrenaline for the moment, but really take time out to

[01:00:07] know that faith overcomes fear.

[01:00:10] Hope overcomes uncertainty.

[01:00:13] Belief overcomes self doubts that are self limiting and action.

[01:00:18] Indeed.

[01:00:18] Purposeful action will help you overcome the paralysis of whatever delay is making you put

[01:00:24] off that richly imagined future that you have for yourself and your family and those you love.

[01:00:30] Yeah.

[01:00:31] Mark, you have me a little over here, over here because I told you all that stuff you're saying

[01:00:36] is striking a chord with me because Brian and I talk about that amongst ourselves, even with our

[01:00:40] podcasts and that, that is amazing to hear.

[01:00:43] I can't wait to dig in and listen to the audio book.

[01:00:49] Matt, this is truly amazing.

[01:00:51] I'm so honored to have you here.

[01:00:53] You've created a model for bringing the human back into human relations.

[01:00:59] Yeah.

[01:01:00] Um, based on love.

[01:01:01] Yeah.

[01:01:02] Can you tell us more about that and how it can be incorporated at all levels?

[01:01:07] It's I'm glad you brought that up because it's really where I'm going next with this whole purposeful

[01:01:11] growth revolution is I've seen toxic work environments, right?

[01:01:17] I've seen the great resignation where research that blew me away came from the Sloan School

[01:01:25] of Management at MIT when they researched 34 million people who left the workforce during

[01:01:30] COVID globally.

[01:01:32] Asked a question.

[01:01:32] Wow.

[01:01:33] The number one most given answer by 10 times greater than the second most given answer.

[01:01:41] COVID gave us all a bit of a time out to reflect deeply on not only what, but who matters most

[01:01:47] in our lives.

[01:01:48] So whether you got COVID yourself, maybe a family member was hospitalized or God forbid someone,

[01:01:54] you know, died.

[01:01:55] I do.

[01:01:56] And I know that it gave me pause to reflect on my mortality and say, what am I going to

[01:02:04] stand for?

[01:02:05] What boundaries am I going to set going forward?

[01:02:08] Because I don't want to just go back to the same status quo.

[01:02:11] I want to do something different.

[01:02:12] I want my life to have more meaning.

[01:02:14] And so now we're seeing research and specifically among millennials and Gen Z, according to Deloitte

[01:02:21] who just published a study this in a summer saying nearly 90% of them want purpose at work.

[01:02:27] And so this really fueled my idea for what can we do to put the human back in human resources?

[01:02:37] I say, all we need is love.

[01:02:39] And people look at me funny.

[01:02:41] They had, I'm thinking, like, not the kind of love that's going to get you a quick call

[01:02:45] from HR and escort.

[01:02:47] I'm talking great have eight different definitions for love.

[01:02:54] And you probably know that Eros is more sexual love and Phyllos is more, we got the word Philadelphia

[01:03:02] from Phyllos, which means brotherly love, right?

[01:03:05] And agape is unconditional love.

[01:03:07] So what I'm talking about more is the Phyllos, which is this notion of listen, observe, value,

[01:03:16] and empower.

[01:03:18] So I broke down love just like I broke down leaf into a four circle Venn diagram.

[01:03:24] And I went and studied the Gallup state of the global workplace studies that come out every year.

[01:03:31] And in the last several years, they're touting the fact that engagement is at historically low levels.

[01:03:38] And you had what the kids are calling client quitting, right?

[01:03:40] And now with hybrid and remote workplaces, we don't have the same dynamic at work.

[01:03:46] And so it's easier for someone to check out for a while.

[01:03:50] And so the goal is why would they want to?

[01:03:53] According to Gallup's millions and millions of responses, again, all over the world, it comes down to some pretty basic humanistic traits and situations.

[01:04:05] The number one through, I don't know, six or seven reasons why people are lacking engagement at about 50% at any given time are actively looking to leave their current employer.

[01:04:17] Yeah.

[01:04:19] If you are a leader in that organization, how's that going to make you feel?

[01:04:22] And if you realize the cost that goes into not only the cost of having to replace somebody through recruiting and hiring, training, recognition, reward, obtaining and all that.

[01:04:35] But what about the lost productivity costs?

[01:04:39] Gallup suggests that nearly $9 trillion with a T dollars in gross domestic product globally is unrealized because of lack of engagement.

[01:04:53] I think that's terrible.

[01:04:56] So I went and studied what are the other factors that they cite as lack of engagement, lack of connection to purpose.

[01:05:04] And mission at work.

[01:05:07] Lack of feeling cared about at work.

[01:05:10] Lack of the ability to do what I do best.

[01:05:13] Lack of clarity as to what I'm supposed to do on the front end and lack of frequent feedback to let me know how I'm doing throughout the process.

[01:05:20] And on and like, those are fixable.

[01:05:23] Well, how do we fix it?

[01:05:25] Because some of us of a certain age grew up in a command and control management style.

[01:05:30] Well, yet we know younger people that dog don't hunt anymore.

[01:05:36] So what's going to have to change?

[01:05:39] They're going to change because now they have more options.

[01:05:42] The gig economy, they can do a number of different things that they, we didn't have the opportunity to do.

[01:05:48] We tolerated it because that's just the way it was.

[01:05:50] Now they're saying I'm not tolerating that old, tired, toxic command and control management style.

[01:05:58] They're looking for a more humanistic, more relational leadership style that will benefit all four stakeholders who I mentioned earlier.

[01:06:06] So listening is the first step though, even though it's not linear, you need to be able to listen to your team member.

[01:06:13] Notice I didn't say employee cause words matter.

[01:06:16] Those of you who ever put growing up, you know what I'm talking about.

[01:06:18] Or maybe you were in a band or orchestra or choral when you have a role to play that it makes you feel more dutiful to the person on your right and your left.

[01:06:28] You want to make sure you don't let the team down, right?

[01:06:32] If you're an employee, it's easy to feel like just a faceless, nameless employee ID number.

[01:06:36] But by listening to somebody, if you're the leader, not a boss, a leader, you're listening to what they're saying with empathy and understanding.

[01:06:46] But you're also listening for what they're not saying.

[01:06:50] It would be naive to think that people are maybe going through something outside of work that may impact the quality of their performance at work.

[01:07:01] Yeah.

[01:07:01] And so if you're a leader, what you're trying to do is build trust.

[01:07:04] Cause right off the bat, someone's like, I say, I don't think I can tell, um, Mark that I'm caring for my elderly mom and it's taken me away from work and it's causing me a lot of mental stress.

[01:07:13] And I have a sick kid who needs surgery and I just don't know how we're going to pay for it.

[01:07:18] Possibly I'm going through a relationship issue and that's really making me struggle at work.

[01:07:23] If you're creating that safe space of belonging and a community, you're listening to someone, you're hearing what they're saying.

[01:07:31] And what they're not saying and asking questions by developing curiosity.

[01:07:35] It may be William.

[01:07:37] I don't know if there's anything I could do, please let me know or Brian.

[01:07:43] And you say, no, I don't think there really is, but you feel better now that you trusted me with what's going on in your life.

[01:07:51] Because we're about building a relationship.

[01:07:53] Now this isn't about our manager who it's transactional.

[01:07:56] This is about a leader and it's relational.

[01:07:58] And if they're truly a legacy builder, that means it will be transformational.

[01:08:03] So here's what I'm saying.

[01:08:05] If I work for a manager or a boss, I'm going to say, I must obey you.

[01:08:12] If I work for a leader, I'm going to say, I will follow you because that's relational.

[01:08:17] So I go from transactional to relational, but transformational is when it's my turn to lead.

[01:08:22] I will lead like you.

[01:08:24] Remember those mentors I talked about earlier in our show with me.

[01:08:27] So I want to be that kind of leader that someone wants to willingly follow, not just doodly salute and execute, but someone who wants to hopefully lead even better than me when it's their turn to lead.

[01:08:40] So now imagine if I have four or five, six direct reports, see the multiple ripple effects.

[01:08:46] That's what I mean by transformational.

[01:08:48] That's how we're going to get rid of the tired old ineffective command and control management style and transform our workplaces into a more relational humanistic leadership style.

[01:09:01] So I'm listening and I'm observing.

[01:09:04] I mentioned Andy Reed before.

[01:09:06] He doesn't wait for the end of the season.

[01:09:09] Like we do with the performance appraisal, which I hate that word appraisal sounds like you're a piece of real estate or that.

[01:09:15] Yeah. Real estate.

[01:09:16] He's coming on the practice field in the team room, in the film rooms for games, during games, halftime after games.

[01:09:24] Right.

[01:09:25] And so observing means coaching, encouraging, mentoring, even critiquing in real time.

[01:09:31] People want to know how, how am I doing?

[01:09:33] Right. Are you clear on what I'm supposed to be doing?

[01:09:36] And you've told me, or are you holding me to a standard?

[01:09:39] You really haven't told me, but you're going to ding me when it comes to review time, which is a gotcha that a lot of people go through.

[01:09:46] I've been through it.

[01:09:47] And then it becomes, maybe this is going to impact your ability to earn a bonus in a bonus pool or to get a raise of a certain level, because there's only so much money in the raised pile or only so much money in the bonus.

[01:09:59] And I got an end of the year, gotcha.

[01:10:01] And then value is so important because when you feel valued more than just fair and equitable compensation and benefits, that's the green space and even reward and recognition for when I do something.

[01:10:21] Well, that's good too. But when you value something, guys, don't you want to invest in it? Don't grow it like an investment.

[01:10:31] Okay. Hey, I could put my money in under the mattress and it's not going to grow interest, but at least it's safe.

[01:10:38] Or I could invest it in things that I have seen historically will multiply that money and people are the same way by investing them.

[01:10:48] It may be that you're saying, Hey, William, you mentioned something about AI and curiosity about AI.

[01:10:56] There's a conference that's going on in the Bay area.

[01:10:59] And I think it would be really good if you went there and learned a little bit more and then came back and talk to us about how we can invest in some of those techniques to help improve productivity or even job satisfaction at work.

[01:11:14] All of a sudden you now feel that you're valued, but you're not just a baseless, nameless employee ID number, but you are a valuable member of the team with a role to play.

[01:11:27] And now the ability to learn and grow, which is when I said earlier, the Gallup says are dissatisfiers.

[01:11:34] I don't feel like I have the ability to learn and grow.

[01:11:37] Hey, this is Brent Skinner, host of Small Talk Window here at the Work Defined Podcasting Network.

[01:11:43] Have you ever wanted a short podcast to listen to during a coffee break of your work day?

[01:11:48] You've come to the right place.

[01:11:50] My guests dispense with a small talk as quickly as possible and settle into a meaningful conversation around the world of work.

[01:11:59] And then empower the E.

[01:12:01] This is the best of all.

[01:12:02] We could stop at LOB, but think about this.

[01:12:06] I don't know about you guys, but when I learned to ride a bike, I remember one birthday, I got this beautiful Royal Blue Schwinn Stingray bike.

[01:12:15] I had a banana seat, anabars, mag back wheel, the whole nine yards.

[01:12:19] But I had training wheels because I wasn't ready to ride it by myself just yet.

[01:12:24] But I would tool around the neighborhood because I couldn't fall because I had the training wheels on, right?

[01:12:28] But I remember one Saturday morning, my dad woke me up and said, son, it's time to take the training wheels off.

[01:12:34] Are you ready?

[01:12:36] And one part of me wanted to be really ready because I want to be like the big kids, right?

[01:12:40] I'm going to be doing something I've never done before.

[01:12:43] So he takes me out in the garage and get the bike out and he's taking the training wheels off.

[01:12:47] And all the while he's talking to me, he's reassuring, I know you can do this.

[01:12:51] Here's what you do.

[01:12:52] And then we get on the sidewalk and he's not just telling me what to do.

[01:12:55] He's holding onto the bike with me, walking with me, talking and saying, Reverend, you got to keep pedaling.

[01:13:02] And if you start to wobble a little bit, don't overcorrect because you're going to, you're going to fall.

[01:13:08] And of course, I stopped pedaling and of course that wobble and fell a few times.

[01:13:12] But I remember when he would push me and say, okay, I'm going to let you go now.

[01:13:18] And I say, okay, you've told me what to do.

[01:13:21] You've walked alongside me.

[01:13:23] It ran alongside me as I do it.

[01:13:24] It's up to me to now do what I'm capable of doing and what you've taught me.

[01:13:29] And I remember when I finally got it and I rode down to the end of the street, I was able to stop on my own, turn around and come back.

[01:13:36] And I got to the edge of the driveway where my dad was standing.

[01:13:39] And I don't know whose grin was bigger, his or mine.

[01:13:44] That sense of freedom that I felt, not only did my neighborhood get bigger, my world got bigger.

[01:13:50] I lived on that bike that summer in Chuchuk, which sucks.

[01:13:52] But it was all based on the importance of empowerment of somebody helping me do what I'm capable of doing.

[01:14:00] But if they didn't give me the opportunity to learn and grow and fall down a few times and hit me back up and encourage me to keep going, I don't know what would happen.

[01:14:10] So now you're coming back from the Bay Area in that conference.

[01:14:14] I say to you, William, in the next couple of weeks, we have a team meeting.

[01:14:20] Would you be open to putting together a presentation for the team that could outline some ideas that you learned that could maybe help make our respective jobs more productive and maybe more satisfying?

[01:14:35] All of a sudden now you go, wow, yeah.

[01:14:38] Wow.

[01:14:39] And I say, as your leader, what do you need from me?

[01:14:43] Are there resources that you need?

[01:14:45] You take something off your plate.

[01:14:47] Yeah, I'm working on three projects and there's one that it's almost across the finish line, but man, it'd be great if Bob or Sally could finish that up for me.

[01:14:55] That'd give me time to get work on this.

[01:14:56] Okay, done.

[01:14:57] What else?

[01:14:58] I'm going to need the room.

[01:14:59] I'm going to need the projector.

[01:15:00] I'm going to need all.

[01:15:01] Okay, great.

[01:15:02] So now comes the big day and you present and all of a sudden your team members are looking at you going, wow.

[01:15:11] And they're giving you a standing ovation.

[01:15:13] How are you going to feel?

[01:15:15] That level of empowered feeling can last a lot longer than a spot bonus, right?

[01:15:23] And we've seen all studies are showing that, yes, we need to earn a fair, equitable living for sure.

[01:15:29] But incentivizing people just financially has never proven to work.

[01:15:35] Or if someone wants to leave saying, oh, I didn't know.

[01:15:39] You're a really valuable member of the team.

[01:15:40] What if we bumped your salary on 2% or whatever?

[01:15:44] They might stay for a little bit longer, but then they're probably going to bail and then you'll have lost that money.

[01:15:49] And it's never about the money.

[01:15:52] And anybody who tells you it is, it's not.

[01:15:56] It's about the value you feel as a member of a team that is listened to, observed, and valued, and empowered to be your very best.

[01:16:06] And to me, that's the new book I'm working on.

[01:16:09] It's a sequel to The Purposeful Growth Revolution in a way that really just builds off the foundation that has been laid with that bigger, broader tone that's maybe admittedly 100 miles wide, 10 feet deep.

[01:16:21] This one's going to go even deeper into this goal of putting the human back, the human resources, and to do all we need is love.

[01:16:30] All right.

[01:16:31] Amazing.

[01:16:33] That's a, yeah, it's a perfect place to end, Mark.

[01:16:36] And again, we can't thank you enough for joining us today.

[01:16:39] And we do have a game that we'd like to play with folks.

[01:16:42] Our guest is called This or That.

[01:16:43] Just some random thing, just to folks who get some, get to, get to know you beyond the book and beyond these things.

[01:16:51] And we do have a debate that we want your input on.

[01:16:55] Okay.

[01:16:55] And Walter.

[01:16:56] Yeah.

[01:16:56] No pressure.

[01:16:57] No pressure.

[01:16:57] We'll get into it though.

[01:16:59] Walt, you want to do the first three and then I'll do the last?

[01:17:01] Sure.

[01:17:02] Yep.

[01:17:02] So number one.

[01:17:04] So you can answer either one of these or you can say neither.

[01:17:08] Either.

[01:17:09] All's, whatever.

[01:17:09] Okay.

[01:17:10] So college or pro sports?

[01:17:14] College.

[01:17:15] Okay.

[01:17:17] Wow.

[01:17:18] All right.

[01:17:18] Number two, would you, do you prefer?

[01:17:21] Well, college is becoming pro.

[01:17:22] Yeah.

[01:17:22] That's true.

[01:17:23] For a little bit longer, I'm going to hold on to this image of college athletics being pure and raw and do it for the team.

[01:17:31] And, and, but it's quickly becoming a business that I'm not sure I'm, we're out, we're going to recognize in a few years, but.

[01:17:37] Yeah.

[01:17:38] I'll start with college for now.

[01:17:39] Go ahead.

[01:17:40] You've got that.

[01:17:40] Yep.

[01:17:41] It's a good one.

[01:17:41] Um, so do you prefer news on the television or NPR?

[01:17:47] I, I'm more of a digital person.

[01:17:49] I'll get my news.

[01:17:51] I, every day I get a feed from the wall street journal and I read that as part of my day and try to find sources.

[01:17:57] Yet I feel, uh, coming from a journalism background, uh, are as unbiased and professional and look at both sides as equally as humanly possible, even though we all know we all have the tarot biases.

[01:18:11] But I try to get the news that, um, New York times, wall street, neural, uh, Reuters, AP that are tried and true and tested that have no obvious political agenda.

[01:18:24] Yeah.

[01:18:26] Crossing a little bit.

[01:18:27] And my last one for you is, uh, number three, hiking or sailing.

[01:18:35] That's a tough one.

[01:18:36] I grew up as a swimmer and half my life, I played football and other sports, but swimming was something I did.

[01:18:43] It was two hours in the morning for school, two hours in the afternoon after school and summer, same thing.

[01:18:50] So I spent, um, a good part of my childhood in water.

[01:18:56] And for me, there is nothing better than being on a boat sailing or, you know, water skiing or jet skiing, or just being out with the spray of the, of the water hitting your face and the wind and the sun.

[01:19:11] And, but I love a good hike too.

[01:19:13] That's tough.

[01:19:15] It's tough.

[01:19:16] It's tough.

[01:19:18] Okay.

[01:19:19] That's a boat.

[01:19:19] Sounds like a boat to me.

[01:19:21] Simon Sinek or Gary Vaynerchuk.

[01:19:24] Okay.

[01:19:25] I love me some Simon Sinek and the whole start with wine movement.

[01:19:29] And what we didn't get to earlier, I'm going to get to now real quickly.

[01:19:32] And you may have already come to it in the book.

[01:19:35] The whole start with wine movement is great.

[01:19:37] It says people want to know why you do what you do.

[01:19:39] And they care about that more than even care how you do it and even what you do.

[01:19:43] And I buy that to a point, but I really believe, especially if someone from a marketing background that I believe in who we should start with who and specifically who you serve.

[01:19:54] And to me, there are four realms of service, personal, relational, professional, and spiritual.

[01:20:00] We're whole people.

[01:20:02] And we need to be able to be in service.

[01:20:04] Note, we talked earlier about servant leadership.

[01:20:07] Once you're in service to those four realms, then that often leads you to your why, which is your purpose and your motivations that leads you to your how, which I define as how you're uniquely gifted.

[01:20:20] And how you invest those gifts is what leads you to your what are you doing with it all?

[01:20:26] What results do you get?

[01:20:30] So tough to argue that he's a brilliant guy, but I think he missed something that I find personally very obvious.

[01:20:37] And I think Gary is someone who just keeps it real.

[01:20:40] There's no pretense.

[01:20:42] There's no fluff.

[01:20:44] It's here's what I've learned.

[01:20:45] Here's what I think.

[01:20:46] Here's what I know.

[01:20:48] Here's what I don't know.

[01:20:49] And I want to share it with you because I want you to be better as a result.

[01:20:53] I'm going to lean towards Gary.

[01:20:56] All right.

[01:20:57] So did I win?

[01:20:59] No, no, no.

[01:21:00] No, that's coming after this.

[01:21:01] Don't worry.

[01:21:02] It's a good one.

[01:21:02] You're going to love it.

[01:21:03] Me and Walt were debating something before we as a preparation.

[01:21:08] And we're like, no, I was like, you know what?

[01:21:09] That's the question.

[01:21:10] Hold on.

[01:21:11] Uh-oh.

[01:21:12] David or Samson?

[01:21:16] David.

[01:21:17] Easy.

[01:21:17] I knew you were going to say that.

[01:21:19] Easy.

[01:21:19] You think about a young shepherd boy.

[01:21:24] All against the Philistines and all of the older people in the tribe were like, we're taking this guy on.

[01:21:33] And you got Deliah going, come on, give me your best shock.

[01:21:36] And David says, I'll do it.

[01:21:38] And he had faith.

[01:21:39] And all he had was a dang slingshot.

[01:21:41] Right.

[01:21:42] And sure enough, he got one right between the eyes and he slew Goliath.

[01:21:48] But he did it based on using his training, being fearless, but being faithful.

[01:21:55] And then ultimately conquering the unrighted cheating, something that no one thought was possible at a young age.

[01:22:02] And I just, plus Samson allowed himself to get his hair cut and then lost his.

[01:22:06] He had it.

[01:22:08] Yes.

[01:22:09] Not that it was without fault either.

[01:22:11] He blew it too.

[01:22:12] But, you know, every day David, King David.

[01:22:16] I'm going to take it for Solomon.

[01:22:17] Sorry.

[01:22:19] Amazing.

[01:22:19] I love it.

[01:22:20] The last one is corporate or like you put it, solopreneur.

[01:22:24] Solopreneur.

[01:22:27] I'm going to be honest, guys.

[01:22:29] I'm still working into this whole solopreneur thing because I was a corporate American team guy for years.

[01:22:35] And when you strike out on a new path, you've got to give yourself grace.

[01:22:40] I didn't do it.

[01:22:42] I'm a type A plus plus serial achiever and still recovering perfectionist.

[01:22:49] And I thought, well, I'll just slay this.

[01:22:52] I'll just, I've written this book and I'll just do this and I'll do that.

[01:22:55] And I'll build this brand and this, this personal brand.

[01:22:58] And it's happening, but it's just not as fast as I was expecting because I'm doing something I'd never done before.

[01:23:04] And so when you talk about humility, I've been humbled.

[01:23:08] Like you wouldn't believe.

[01:23:10] Um, and, but it's been in a good way because it's helped me understand that I need to rely on people.

[01:23:15] I've met people such as yourselves who have been able to learn from and grow with God's put people in my path every single day that have helped me along my journey.

[01:23:26] And so when I talk about paying it backward, there are countless people who've paid it backward to help me along mine.

[01:23:32] I would start with corporate team guy, but I'll tell you what's really fulfilling is when you are on a podcast like this and you feel like what you're saying and sharing is going to make a difference in the lives of people that you will never meet.

[01:23:46] And it fit more perfectly my purpose statement, which is, I don't want to just make money or retire.

[01:23:52] I want to make a difference and inspire.

[01:23:55] I'll share that with anybody.

[01:23:57] But it doesn't have to be just mine.

[01:23:58] But if you have that mindset, you will be profitable in all ways, not just financially, but the way you look at yourself, the legacy that you leave and the seeds you sow into others and help them along their growth journey.

[01:24:14] And it is a, it's a path that I'm on and I feel good about, um, you should, I gotta keep moving forward along that path though, guys.

[01:24:22] So thank you for this platform.

[01:24:24] I really, please keep going.

[01:24:25] Please keep going.

[01:24:26] Thank you for being on.

[01:24:27] Please keep going.

[01:24:29] The, what me and what we're at.

[01:24:30] So we always end the show with a question to just get some between passion and purpose.

[01:24:45] And, but we came down to.

[01:24:51] Your purpose is your passion, but also your passion is your purpose.

[01:24:56] So I believe they're inextricably late.

[01:24:59] You can't have a purpose and not be passionate about it.

[01:25:02] God doesn't do that to people.

[01:25:03] He gives us gifts that be so in our heart that this is your passion, but also your passion.

[01:25:30] Gotta be both.

[01:25:31] One fuels the other.

[01:25:32] If I'm passionate, it'll lead me to a purpose to find an outlet that makes my passion mean something.

[01:25:39] Right.

[01:25:40] I could be passionate about golf and I am, but I'm right.

[01:25:44] I'm a professional golfer.

[01:25:45] Right.

[01:25:46] But if I have a purpose, then I can make it a passion.

[01:25:51] And I could look at that, that prism and twist it a bit differently.

[01:25:55] And see that I've made for more than just myself.

[01:26:00] Okay.

[01:26:02] Well, do you remember how you had it phrased before this?

[01:26:05] Yeah.

[01:26:05] So the question, the original question was more, more tailored to say, should we as payroll professionals or corporate employees, our people in general focus more on our passion or our purpose?

[01:26:20] And it's like, I think you answered that already because they're mature intertwined for you.

[01:26:25] So that's where we, Brian and I got into the debate.

[01:26:28] Because Brian was in the waltz.

[01:26:29] He said, before I read Mark's book, I would have agreed with you, but William, but now I think I'm leaning towards what Mark is saying in his book.

[01:26:38] I want to directly address your, your listeners and viewers and those who work in payroll.

[01:26:44] Because we really haven't done, and I want to make sure I don't leave before I say you have the most important job in the company.

[01:26:52] And I say that not to pat you on the head and pay lip service to it.

[01:26:58] I truly believe it.

[01:26:59] And again, as someone who's had full P&L responsibility, if people don't get paid, work doesn't get done.

[01:27:05] And we are able to keep our promises to all of our stakeholders, our team members, our customers, guests, or clients, depending on your industry, our business partners and our communities.

[01:27:18] Try looking at it the other way.

[01:27:20] You ever see when there's a glitch, maybe sometimes in the software or the banking and someone misses payroll?

[01:27:28] Oh yeah.

[01:27:29] Well, now all of a sudden you see how important you are, right?

[01:27:33] Oh yeah.

[01:27:34] So my point is, I see you and I, I feel you and I appreciate you.

[01:27:40] And all the stuff we're talking about today, you might say, I'm not sure that's directly applicable to my day-to-day job.

[01:27:46] I believe it is.

[01:27:47] It definitely is.

[01:27:48] It's how you work at it.

[01:27:49] And people say, I just don't know.

[01:27:50] I feel like I'm, I'm not really living into my purpose or I'm not passionate about this.

[01:27:55] Another industry, I had a conversation with a young lady and she's, I've read your book.

[01:28:00] I love all this.

[01:28:01] I'm trying to get my team to understand that what they do matters.

[01:28:05] And she works for a large global business services firm and her job and her team's job is serving as marketing for the sales team.

[01:28:17] And I said, can you give me an example of some of your clients?

[01:28:21] If there's so-and-so Pfizer and so, so wait, stop.

[01:28:25] You mean to tell me Pfizer is one of your clients.

[01:28:27] This was a few years ago.

[01:28:28] That is on the forefront of COVID vaccines.

[01:28:34] Now, your team is supporting the sales function that allows those people to do their jobs better, more efficiently, more productively.

[01:28:44] Hopefully you're part of the solution of a cure or at least the ability to mitigate the damage of COVID.

[01:28:53] Right.

[01:28:53] And she all of a sudden brightened up and said, oh my God, Mark, I've never thought of it that way before.

[01:28:59] As she went back and talked to her team and they had the best meeting they've had in a while.

[01:29:02] And she said, engagement has risen.

[01:29:05] Everybody feels like they now see a bigger, you know, part of their job and the ecosystem that they're a part of.

[01:29:11] And the important role they play.

[01:29:14] And the same thing I'll say is for payroll.

[01:29:16] If people don't get paid, work doesn't get done.

[01:29:19] Right.

[01:29:20] And if work doesn't get done, nobody achieves their goals.

[01:29:23] And what you do matters.

[01:29:25] It matters a ton.

[01:29:27] And I just want to say thank you.

[01:29:29] Oh, no.

[01:29:29] Thank you very much.

[01:29:30] And I didn't, I didn't address it specifically because I, being that I've dug in already, this, this is applicable to everyone.

[01:29:38] Period.

[01:29:38] I think, I think you can do any show, any platform that's out there because it's applicable.

[01:29:46] Yeah.

[01:29:46] It's across all, everything.

[01:29:48] But thank you for addressing our folks, our payroll folks know that we're passionate about serving them and bringing the best show we can.

[01:29:57] We actually don't veer from payroll often.

[01:30:02] Right.

[01:30:02] I think this is your, like the second guest that we've had that is not specifically a payroll person.

[01:30:08] And I wouldn't, I wouldn't have had you come on if I didn't think it could be applicable.

[01:30:14] Right.

[01:30:14] Cause that's not, we just don't, we've promised our listeners that we will like be wardens and diligent to the product that we put out for them.

[01:30:23] So I stand behind it a hundred percent and it's applicable.

[01:30:26] I, we talked a little bit about it, Mark, and I think I'm in the winter of my, a winter, not the winter, right?

[01:30:33] Cause it can be a winter of my life.

[01:30:36] And I'm happy to have seen that and had that clarification.

[01:30:40] I know that Walt now, now Walt understands why I was so impacted, why I told him he was going to love this.

[01:30:46] By the way, his full name is Walter William Duncan III.

[01:30:48] That's why Walter William is in the future.

[01:30:50] Yeah, I was wondering.

[01:30:51] I thought everybody does.

[01:30:52] I know.

[01:30:54] He's trying to rebrand as William and I just keep pulling them back to Walter.

[01:30:58] But yeah, I can't thank you enough.

[01:30:59] And I look forward to following the journey and keeping on the next book.

[01:31:04] And yeah, man, keep going.

[01:31:07] Thank you very much.

[01:31:08] Well, my pleasure.

[01:31:10] And remember, you gotta send me a pic with your book.

[01:31:13] Yes.

[01:31:13] And that way you can, you can gift William the audio book.

[01:31:18] And it'll be a great testimonial also.

[01:31:21] And I look forward to hearing, William, what you think when you have a chance to dig into it yourself.

[01:31:26] And it's been a pleasure meeting you both.

[01:31:29] I can tell we're like-hearted and being like-hearted leaders is so different than being like-minded,

[01:31:35] which means we think alike.

[01:31:37] That's how we have a lot of division in our country, right?

[01:31:39] People that think alike and stay.

[01:31:41] But when you're like-hearted, you have the ability to listen and understand

[01:31:46] where other people are coming from.

[01:31:48] You may not agree with it, but you at least have an opportunity to listen and understand.

[01:31:53] And to me, that makes all the difference for us as human beings.

[01:31:56] So thank you guys.

[01:31:57] I really appreciate it.

[01:31:58] Thank you, Mark.

[01:32:00] It's been amazing.

[01:32:01] My pleasure.

[01:32:02] We'll leave it there.

[01:32:04] And as always, folks, we love you.

[01:32:08] Before we sign off, here are a couple quick things.

[01:32:11] Don't forget to follow It's About Payroll on LinkedIn.

[01:32:14] And it's about your paycheck on Facebook and TikTok.

[01:32:18] Thank you for being part of our payroll community.

[01:32:21] And thank you for being a part of this journey with us.

[01:32:24] Until the next time, keep learning, keep growing, and most importantly, keep going.

[01:32:29] Thank you.