Payroll Conversations with Bart van der Storm

[00:00:00] William Duncan III, Welcome back folks, we are episode 109, Its

[00:00:27] About Payroll, we have a awesome show today, a really great guest Bart Van Der Storm, but

[00:00:35] before we get into that of course we got pay news and before that even, how you doing today

[00:00:39] Walt?

[00:00:40] Man I am good, I'm happy, not happy about the Miami Marlins on their current list.

[00:00:47] Oh what happened with the Marlins?

[00:00:49] They're the only one list team in Major League Baseball right now, I think they

[00:00:55] lost 9-10 straight, and its just a mess man, just a mess man, just a mess, but other than

[00:01:02] that I'm alright, how are you?

[00:01:05] Your nakey's looking good.

[00:01:06] I'm good, yeah I know I was just, I didn't want to, yeah they are looking good, its

[00:01:11] still early in the season, baseball has so many games and always laugh at us fans

[00:01:17] that we're like, good or bad right, we're like oh my god yeah, we're like how many

[00:01:20] games is it?

[00:01:21] Oh five, baseball play 160 something games, its a ways now, but yeah its always fun to

[00:01:29] have a winning team or what not.

[00:01:31] Yeah I'm good man, all's good, excited for this episode, I've been talking to

[00:01:38] Bart for a while about some things he's been doing and stuff, and yeah if you

[00:01:43] don't know who Bart Van Der Storm is we'll cover that as well, give us a story

[00:01:47] exciting, but before that lets get into this pay news, and what was up first?

[00:01:54] Mine is really quick, ADP submitted an employment report for March 2024, the link

[00:02:01] for that article will be in the show notes.

[00:02:05] So just three quick things, private payrolls in March of 2024 increased by 184 jobs,

[00:02:13] which is the largest increase since July last year, this suggests companies are

[00:02:18] willing to pay more for new hires, so even though inflation is happening

[00:02:24] companies are still trying to do the right thing and get the right talent in

[00:02:27] as well and pay more right?

[00:02:29] Yeah yeah because you have to show them that you're willing, companies

[00:02:33] have to show employees that hey I'm gonna combat this you know the

[00:02:37] inflation rate, because that's the problem like inflation goes up 6% but

[00:02:41] our raises only go up 3% and that might be the max and oh well 2.5 for you, oh well why?

[00:02:49] Because unfortunately some managers you always have to leave room for

[00:02:55] improvement.

[00:02:56] Yeah I worked for a place man they didn't do it by percentage they did

[00:03:01] it like they did it say hey you either get a quarter, 50 cents or a

[00:03:06] dollar.

[00:03:07] Oh my gosh.

[00:03:08] Yeah.

[00:03:11] That's that's crazy.

[00:03:15] My next note here is that non-farm payrolls increased by 200,000 jobs

[00:03:22] after increasing by 275,000 in February and then last is the unemployment rate.

[00:03:29] The unemployment rate is forecasted to remain at the same 3.9%.

[00:03:35] So that's pretty much it for me.

[00:03:36] Okay.

[00:03:37] What do you got?

[00:03:38] Cool yeah I'm glad you covered that because these are big numbers recently

[00:03:42] that came out with payroll and I was like oh man should I cover this and

[00:03:45] that yep so thank you sir.

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[00:04:48] Let's go.

[00:04:49] Let's go.

[00:04:50] I have Oregon state employees have been dealing with ongoing payroll

[00:04:57] system problems for about a year they say.

[00:04:59] And the state switched in early 23, but the rocky transition caused errors and

[00:05:04] employees at a protest last Thursday said the problems are still ongoing.

[00:05:11] Yeah, it's local.

[00:05:13] It's a union and their union so that you can't mess with unions because.

[00:05:20] How can I say it's not because they're scary, but because unions have

[00:05:23] what's called a CBA, collective bargaining agreement.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:27] And it's been negotiated between the union leader and the job leaders or

[00:05:32] the employers, the companies to work under that union agreement.

[00:05:38] So it's not, Oh, you got to deal with it until we fix it.

[00:05:41] They may actually have clauses in their CBA that cause penalty

[00:05:45] and cause other things like they can strike and stuff, stuff like that.

[00:05:49] So really it's a, it's not desirable.

[00:05:53] I remember I did, I did a union payroll earlier,

[00:05:55] right earlier in my career, but I wasn't responsible for reading all the different

[00:06:00] the CBA or anything like that.

[00:06:01] Okay.

[00:06:02] But I made a mistake on one person's check and they got paid and I went

[00:06:05] to go try to adjust it.

[00:06:07] They had language where like, Hey, if this over pay happens, you can't deduct it.

[00:06:12] That's right.

[00:06:13] Ooh.

[00:06:14] Ooh, man.

[00:06:16] Okay.

[00:06:16] Yep.

[00:06:16] Thank God it wasn't a lot, but geez.

[00:06:18] All right.

[00:06:19] Yep.

[00:06:20] Well see then that's a good call out though, because they didn't

[00:06:23] require you to read the CBA or was it the manager had to review your

[00:06:27] payroll before it went out?

[00:06:28] Because I feel, yes, somebody had to review my payroll for when I,

[00:06:32] Oh, okay.

[00:06:33] So then they dropped the ball.

[00:06:34] They were responsible for the CBA and looking at the, cause that's a, for

[00:06:38] me, I'm glad it's a long time ago because I feel like if you're in

[00:06:43] payroll and you're paying union people, I will want my whole team

[00:06:46] to be familiar with the CBA.

[00:06:48] Yeah.

[00:06:48] Bro, I was a young, so we're per snapper.

[00:06:50] I was like,

[00:06:51] per snapper.

[00:06:53] So yeah, man, hopefully Oregon, these Oregon state employees get, get some

[00:06:57] improvement that they need because going a year without that, what's that

[00:07:01] stat that you share with us all the time is if you go to paychecks, folks

[00:07:05] are looking to leave their job and they probably haven't because they're

[00:07:08] in the union so they're willing to stick it out longer because they do

[00:07:12] have a body like a governing body.

[00:07:14] They have that protection.

[00:07:16] They have protect.

[00:07:16] Thank you.

[00:07:17] Easier said they have protection.

[00:07:19] So they're probably not looking to skate off real easy, but they're

[00:07:23] going to strike.

[00:07:23] They're causing problems.

[00:07:24] They do it to go a year.

[00:07:26] And it says in the article is just like the anxiety of not knowing if

[00:07:30] your next paycheck is going to be right again or wrong again.

[00:07:34] You don't want employees to be dealing with this stuff.

[00:07:36] And again, definitely not union employees who have more advocacy.

[00:07:40] One and their Oregon on the West coast, employed states are very

[00:07:44] employee centric, they're very employee advocating type of things.

[00:07:48] And you have, if you're in the States and you pay you do payroll in the

[00:07:51] West coast, make sure you're looking at all the state rules because they tend

[00:07:56] to be more generous to the employees.

[00:07:58] Yeah.

[00:07:58] So it was just something that really call out.

[00:08:01] And again, hopefully they get there.

[00:08:03] They're able to get these things resolved so they can get back on

[00:08:07] stability, right?

[00:08:08] As we say all the time, payroll is life and people need their paychecks

[00:08:12] to live that life, get it together, folks, get it together.

[00:08:16] So, yeah, let's, let's, let's move into this intro for Bartman.

[00:08:21] You want to read it for us?

[00:08:22] You want to take care of the intro for us, sir?

[00:08:25] Yeah, I can do that.

[00:08:26] All right.

[00:08:27] Ladies and gentlemen, it's a pleasure to introduce Bart

[00:08:31] VanderStorm, a distinguished figure renowned for his expertise in

[00:08:35] revolutionizing the global payroll operations within illustrious career

[00:08:40] spanning roles, such as payroll manager, global payroll director, and

[00:08:44] payroll strategy consultant.

[00:08:46] Bart has cultivated a profound understanding of the intricacies

[00:08:50] involved in streamlining payroll processes across diverse and

[00:08:54] international landscapes.

[00:08:56] His guiding principle to make simplicity synonymous with security

[00:09:00] resonates throughout his work, where he adeptly crafts actionable

[00:09:04] strategies tailored to both business objectives and human needs.

[00:09:08] As the co-founder of Payroll Minds, Bart embodies a philosophy

[00:09:11] centered on creating a fulfilling life without the need to escape

[00:09:17] for escape plans, an ethos reflected in the consultancy's commitment

[00:09:23] to simplifying and securing global payroll operations with an

[00:09:27] agile and people-centric approach.

[00:09:30] Bart and his team at Payroll Minds stand ready to collaborate,

[00:09:33] inspire and elevate global payroll processes and systems.

[00:09:38] Welcome Bart VanderStorm.

[00:09:40] Time, sir.

[00:09:41] Thank you, gentlemen.

[00:09:42] Thank you so much.

[00:09:45] I do realize-

[00:09:46] You get to hear the whole intro.

[00:09:48] Yeah, I know.

[00:09:48] I get it.

[00:09:49] Thank you so much for the gentleman who was speaking, but I do

[00:09:52] realize it's early morning for you guys.

[00:09:54] It's no problem.

[00:09:54] Yeah.

[00:09:54] Hopefully it's also a good time for you.

[00:09:56] It's later in the afternoon for you, right?

[00:09:58] It's three o'clock.

[00:09:59] It's nice.

[00:09:59] It's convenient.

[00:10:01] So thank you so much for accommodating me.

[00:10:02] Oh, absolutely.

[00:10:04] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:04] Welcome.

[00:10:05] Welcome.

[00:10:06] Are you in the office or-

[00:10:07] No, well, my home office.

[00:10:10] Okay.

[00:10:11] I was like, wow.

[00:10:12] Nowadays when you work globally, obviously there's a year 24-7.

[00:10:16] Yeah, it could be in the morning in Asia.

[00:10:18] It could be in the afternoon in the U.S.

[00:10:20] So it's, you know, I make sure I can work from anywhere, which is cool.

[00:10:25] So no issues there.

[00:10:26] Thank you so much.

[00:10:28] Absolutely.

[00:10:29] Glad to have you on.

[00:10:30] Thank you.

[00:10:31] Yeah.

[00:10:31] Well, I'm super excited to have you on.

[00:10:33] I've been, me and Bart spoke a few months back and he teased out,

[00:10:37] hey, my book is coming out soon.

[00:10:38] I was really excited and I'm more excited to dig in because man, I started

[00:10:44] going through it and Bart is, I'm really excited to read the rest.

[00:10:48] Bart, I love that you've done this for us.

[00:10:51] When me and Walt started this journey, what we did not find were content.

[00:10:57] I literally was trying to buy anything payroll related on as far as books

[00:11:01] are concerned and all I could find was textbooks, how to process payroll

[00:11:05] management and payroll processing and payroll taxes.

[00:11:08] And it was just text until Anita Latinc and she dropped her.

[00:11:12] And now we started to go into this world where it wasn't just about

[00:11:16] text and then now you follow up, man, I'm so excited.

[00:11:20] I'm starting to go through it here.

[00:11:22] And before, before we get into my commentary on what some of the

[00:11:26] stuff I read Bart, why don't you tell us what's your payroll origin story?

[00:11:31] Obviously it's also written in the book.

[00:11:33] It's funny.

[00:11:33] So it all started with.

[00:11:35] I guess everybody has this, but it started with my father, meaning he

[00:11:39] was always a bit of a, it was a crisis manager, self-employed.

[00:11:42] He was always had his own organization and as a young kid, he was like,

[00:11:47] Hey, you know, he was really pushing me always to work, to find,

[00:11:52] to read and to learn.

[00:11:54] And so quite early in my career, he started to involve me in some

[00:11:58] of his accounting practices where he was helping either local grocery

[00:12:02] store, the local bakery store with their admin or with their financial troubles.

[00:12:06] And so I got a little bit of the hang of it, the, of the accounting

[00:12:09] side of the occasion.

[00:12:10] And then one day I don't remember exactly which year it was, but one

[00:12:14] day he came home and he bought a piece of software and he says,

[00:12:17] Bart up until now I've been outsourcing my payroll activities

[00:12:19] for all my clients, but I decided it's time for us to do it ourselves.

[00:12:23] And he says, I have no clue.

[00:12:24] So here you got the software and go have a look.

[00:12:28] And then he made me, I must have spent the whole summer trying to figure

[00:12:31] out what payroll really was and what were deductions and social

[00:12:35] securities and pensions.

[00:12:37] I had no clue.

[00:12:38] So I really had to figure it out all myself.

[00:12:40] And then I had to either, I also had to install the software

[00:12:43] and implement it and made it, make it compliant.

[00:12:47] And so I really fell in love with the entire concept of payroll

[00:12:52] and clearly from there onwards, everybody starts with their local

[00:12:55] payrolls and then it starts from smaller to bigger.

[00:12:58] And soon quite a couple of years after I decided that the Netherlands,

[00:13:02] which is obviously a large country from an economic perspective, but a

[00:13:05] small country from a size perspective, I decided the Netherlands was way

[00:13:09] too small for me, so I wanted to expand.

[00:13:11] So I went into Benelux, which is Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg.

[00:13:15] And then I went into Europe and I found employers who gave me the

[00:13:19] opportunity to learn more about all the other countries.

[00:13:22] And that's also where my book is leaning towards is ultimately, once

[00:13:25] you know how a payroll process functions, the cracks of the, it

[00:13:29] goes from the recruitment and then the data collection, data manipulation

[00:13:33] all the way down to the general ledger files.

[00:13:35] Once you get the hang of it, give or take a couple of countries.

[00:13:38] Okay.

[00:13:39] That's the process.

[00:13:40] And then it comes down to technology and then it comes down

[00:13:43] to organizational design and my book just to immediately go a little bit in,

[00:13:48] but I'll reserve a little bit more for it later.

[00:13:50] But my book was to help anyone who wants to have a career or is in a

[00:13:54] career in payroll, to understand that once you know the process, once

[00:13:58] you understand technology, what makes things really click versus when do

[00:14:03] you struggle?

[00:14:05] And that's why I wrote the book.

[00:14:07] But myself, it's been, I love payroll.

[00:14:10] What can I say?

[00:14:10] I think I don't know anyone who actually deliberately chose for

[00:14:14] payroll in the beginning of their careers, but I also, Walter did.

[00:14:17] Walter did.

[00:14:18] Wow.

[00:14:19] Well, good for you, Walter.

[00:14:20] But I think from my perspective and speaking to so many people, a lot of

[00:14:25] people just fall into it, but once they get hooked, there's no way out.

[00:14:29] It's either.

[00:14:31] So that's my second question.

[00:14:33] Why did you stay in payroll?

[00:14:35] It's you're in the middle of the action.

[00:14:37] I remember I was at Cisco systems, which is probably in the middle of

[00:14:40] my career where I really got to learn all the ropes and tricks and everything.

[00:14:45] And when Cisco was a huge, was a heavily, heavy engaged in acquisitions.

[00:14:51] And, but as a payroll director at Cisco, I knew before most people about

[00:14:55] those acquisitions because they involved me.

[00:14:58] So I was in the center of the action, whether we did a divestiture,

[00:15:02] whether it's do an acquisition, whether you did a downsizing growth spurt.

[00:15:06] You're in the action when there's a new, a new bonus scheme that they

[00:15:10] wanted to implement or a new benefit.

[00:15:12] You're constantly on the tip of your toes in respect of being able to

[00:15:16] implement whatever is being asked of you and, and the action, the

[00:15:20] ability to make a difference, the ability to do things the way in

[00:15:25] a way that it makes more sense.

[00:15:27] Also the fact, I must admit I'm a little bit of an underdog kind of person.

[00:15:30] It's I loved, I'd love to be at coming out of a position where people

[00:15:34] don't expect that you can really make a difference with a team

[00:15:37] yourself or individually it's, it's what I love doing so.

[00:15:40] And I, I also like to prove people wrong in a way.

[00:15:46] I always tell people the number one thing I love about payroll as well

[00:15:50] is that of course in the US it's every other week, but in most of

[00:15:54] the countries in the world, every other month you have a new chance for

[00:15:57] success every other month, you can try to avoid all the mistakes

[00:16:01] you've made in the previous month.

[00:16:03] And so it's, it's groundhog day, but in a positive way, but you

[00:16:06] can constantly try to improve.

[00:16:08] And if you improve, then you can really make a difference.

[00:16:10] Yeah, for sure.

[00:16:13] I love it.

[00:16:14] Okay.

[00:16:14] So now you touched a little bit about why you wrote it, but what really

[00:16:17] inspired you and how maybe how long one, when'd you have that first thought?

[00:16:21] I'm going to write this book.

[00:16:23] And then how long did it take?

[00:16:25] What was the inspiration there?

[00:16:26] And what was that process look like?

[00:16:29] Cause I do want folks to read the book.

[00:16:30] We don't get, we have to give away the book here.

[00:16:33] You gotta go read it.

[00:16:34] I've already started reading.

[00:16:35] It's great.

[00:16:35] It's worth it folks.

[00:16:36] So do it, but give us some of that background.

[00:16:39] Yeah, I, I'm just to kind of, again, I just do the things that I want to do.

[00:16:43] Similar to my company though.

[00:16:45] There's not going to be a pitch about my company, but three and a half years

[00:16:48] ago, I decided with two other partners, let's go and jump into this gap in

[00:16:53] between Deloitte and PWC and the local payroll vendors.

[00:16:56] Let's jump in this gap of becoming an HR and payroll consultancy firm

[00:17:00] that looks at it globally.

[00:17:01] The same way I thought about this book, but I think you named

[00:17:05] that you already named her, but Anita Letting, she's a Dutch woman as well.

[00:17:09] So somehow the books come from the Netherlands guys.

[00:17:11] I'm sorry about that.

[00:17:12] But so far they do.

[00:17:15] She told me if she was at an event that I hosted with my company,

[00:17:19] she said to me, Bart, if you have the inspiration, it's worth it.

[00:17:22] Just the fact that you have to thinking that you can

[00:17:25] write a book and actually do it.

[00:17:26] Man, I've learned so much more than I, I didn't even, I didn't

[00:17:30] even comprehend how much it took.

[00:17:32] But to go through the entire exercise of jotting my thoughts down, ensuring

[00:17:39] that there was a good narrative, constantly rethinking about what

[00:17:42] am I trying to say or what's my ultimate goal with people reading

[00:17:45] this book, because the first draft you write is going to be all over the place.

[00:17:49] You've got so many things that don't make a lot of sense organically.

[00:17:54] If you're not thinking about how you want to say things, but then also

[00:17:57] details like what tone of voice do you want to bring across and what's

[00:18:01] the verb is going to be look like.

[00:18:02] And then don't get me wrong, I'm not a native English speaker, which

[00:18:06] means I have to, I had to also think about, Hey, how do I translate

[00:18:09] this into another language?

[00:18:11] So I actually wrote the book in English.

[00:18:13] We obviously had some help from people from some marketing specialists as well.

[00:18:18] We wrote the book in English.

[00:18:19] My thoughts are still in Dutch.

[00:18:20] So I really had to, uh, I must admit I had three, we had three,

[00:18:25] three drafts of books.

[00:18:27] So my first draft wasn't even, didn't even become the book.

[00:18:31] So, so I would say I took me over all in all, it took me over a year.

[00:18:36] I think in lead time, you can probably say it takes three to four months.

[00:18:39] If you focus on it almost full time, but Hey, I did it in all my spare

[00:18:45] time and I love doing it because it was really, once you have a goal.

[00:18:49] And I think we'll get to that goal, but once you have a goal, what do

[00:18:53] you want to, what do you want to share with the world?

[00:18:55] Then you really want to make sure that you focus on it without making

[00:18:59] it too difficult for people to understand and also to provide with

[00:19:04] your anecdotes, your own story.

[00:19:06] All of that is, is, and then ultimately guys, when I was finished,

[00:19:10] then suddenly it hit me like, but who on earth is actually going to be

[00:19:14] interested in my story to begin with?

[00:19:16] How could I have thought that I had the audacity to think that I

[00:19:19] could write something down and people would actually want to read it.

[00:19:23] But I over overcame that anxiety a little bit and said, okay,

[00:19:26] I think it's a good book.

[00:19:28] I think at least anyone who reads the book will get some takeaways from it.

[00:19:32] And, and I sincerely hope, and I know also from the book, but also from my

[00:19:37] personal website and from my business website, people will see that anyone

[00:19:41] who has a question, anyone who wants to know more or anyone who just

[00:19:44] wants to personally tell me or ask me something, I'm here, I'm here to share.

[00:19:48] I'm here to help.

[00:19:48] I'm here to contribute to everybody's career, to their processes, to their

[00:19:53] work, because I think it's time for all of us to realize that.

[00:19:56] And I think we do, but not everybody in the companies do that.

[00:20:00] If you do the payroll right in an organization, typically the

[00:20:02] organization's in good health.

[00:20:04] It's in good shape because I think that's really think that.

[00:20:07] So that's for me, that was my motivator.

[00:20:09] And once I get motivated guys, like I can do whatever I want.

[00:20:13] And then I did it similar to setting up my company.

[00:20:16] I also now wrote a book and I must admit I'm already cooking a new book.

[00:20:19] Let's see.

[00:20:20] Yeah, let's see.

[00:20:22] You got, oh, you got the bug now.

[00:20:23] You're addicted now.

[00:20:24] Yeah.

[00:20:25] Now there's a little scoop here, but there is it going to be payroll?

[00:20:29] Of course.

[00:20:29] Of course.

[00:20:30] No, there's this and I'll share the name afterwards guys, because I

[00:20:35] can't recall his name by heart.

[00:20:36] He's a Spanish guy, but he, and it's a way, a way broader element that

[00:20:41] he talks about, but he talks about the world and the way the world functions.

[00:20:46] There are so many dynamics within the way the world functions in the way people

[00:20:49] think and culturally and economically.

[00:20:52] And then what's the actual situation, the temperature, what's the weather

[00:20:56] look like and how do you know, what's the current, the current social

[00:21:00] element of the, of the world at that point.

[00:21:03] And that got me a little bit into, Hey, but for payroll as well, not

[00:21:07] every time I consult with an organization that asked me, Hey Bart,

[00:21:11] what do we do?

[00:21:11] Where are we now?

[00:21:12] Where do we go next?

[00:21:13] Not all companies all start from their own starting point.

[00:21:17] And so if you then assume there's a midpoint somewhere, as you

[00:21:21] could say the Delta, let's say the Delta of where you should be.

[00:21:25] And from where you are today to where you want to be, everybody starts

[00:21:28] from a different vantage points.

[00:21:30] Everybody starts from a different angle, which means not there's

[00:21:33] no one size fits all it's a one size fits none.

[00:21:37] So you really need to narrow it down to where is the company now?

[00:21:40] What needs to be done tomorrow?

[00:21:42] Where did they want to go?

[00:21:43] What kind of type of organization is it?

[00:21:45] So it's really going down into how is all these different dynamics

[00:21:49] actually coming to play when you are thinking about how to improve your

[00:21:53] payroll because systems and processes guys, once you figure out what you

[00:21:57] want to do, then the systems and processes are quite easy.

[00:22:00] It's more like all the dynamics around it that makes it, that

[00:22:04] makes it quite a puzzle.

[00:22:05] Yeah.

[00:22:06] That's right.

[00:22:07] That's right.

[00:22:08] Oh, you say puzzle and it makes me think of that.

[00:22:11] I don't know if it's a section or a statement, but you have, it's

[00:22:13] a puzzle with endless pieces that we have to put together and that Bart

[00:22:18] talks about in his book and that one of the statements that grabbed me there.

[00:22:22] I want to really zero in on something that what I thought was quite

[00:22:25] remarkable, that you had the confidence to share in his book.

[00:22:29] Bart says, I'm sorry for the moments where you'll feel

[00:22:32] offended by something I share.

[00:22:35] I, but that wouldn't be my truth, right?

[00:22:38] He desperately wants you to understand that he's being honest.

[00:22:42] He's being vulnerable, but Bart is a very assertive person.

[00:22:46] And some folks take him the wrong way.

[00:22:49] And I, and I resonate with that.

[00:22:50] And I connect with that because I have that look at Walt laughing

[00:22:52] cause he's, he knows I have that same issue where the passion that I have

[00:22:58] for the more aggressive and the more it's the passion that I feel for

[00:23:02] this subject is why we push forward into that.

[00:23:06] And I just, I wanted to like, how did you get past that?

[00:23:10] Were you scared to be, to, oh my gosh, am I being too aggressive?

[00:23:14] How did you get past that when you wrote the book?

[00:23:17] Well, it jams.

[00:23:18] And I guess it resonates a bit with what I said earlier is when you decide

[00:23:22] to write a book, you can write a book the way you think people want you to

[00:23:25] write it, you can write a book the way you think people want to, what

[00:23:28] they want people on here.

[00:23:29] But ultimately there's only one thing that comes naturally in, which

[00:23:33] is who you are, what you are and how you operate and similar to the book.

[00:23:38] And then again, this is, this is also why I wrote the book is I want

[00:23:41] the payroll folks, but also leadership around the payroll folks or anyone who

[00:23:45] reads the book to understand that.

[00:23:47] And this is the thing that I'm not necessarily fond of is, but there's

[00:23:50] a tendency in the world to say payroll people are underrated and

[00:23:54] people are, they're not recognized and they're not rewarded and like

[00:23:58] guys, it may be true.

[00:24:00] I don't know, but I'm not going to sit and whine about it.

[00:24:03] I'm just saying guys, come on, poor girls, if you want to change

[00:24:06] something is change it, have the avast, have the courage and courage

[00:24:11] is a word that comes in my book.

[00:24:12] A lot of, a lot of times is if you don't have the courage, then it's

[00:24:15] going to be very difficult for you to succeed and to be successful.

[00:24:20] Not, not in any way financially driven, but successful as a human being.

[00:24:24] Because we all know it's, it's the constant battles with the authorities.

[00:24:28] It's the battles with your local, with the HR folks, with the leadership.

[00:24:32] It's constantly talking about budgets and resources and anything

[00:24:39] that's even remotely impactful for the payroll.

[00:24:42] It's when you are, and when you have the courage, when you are who you are,

[00:24:47] then you at least can come to terms with anyone you work with around what's needed.

[00:24:52] And my main message through the book and also guys don't get me wrong.

[00:24:56] I'm from the Netherlands and I'm not sure, but I think we're one of the

[00:24:59] most, most direct people considered in the whole world wide.

[00:25:03] That's obviously not working for me, but on the other hand, it is, it

[00:25:07] is my way of saying to everybody, listen, I'm not going to sit next to you and

[00:25:12] put my arm around you and say, yeah, you're right.

[00:25:15] All these evil people, HR or all these evil leaderships, they don't care what

[00:25:19] you do, they don't care if you burn out, et cetera, because they really

[00:25:23] don't care about people.

[00:25:24] I don't believe that I've been in a period in my career where I tended

[00:25:28] to the towards it because it's easier to complain than take the matters

[00:25:33] in your own hand, just do what is needed.

[00:25:35] Yeah.

[00:25:35] But then once I turned it around, say, oh no, but hold on.

[00:25:39] If I want something to change, I first have to make sure that I understand

[00:25:42] what is it, what's going on.

[00:25:44] Then I need to be able to talk to anyone and I need to make sure that

[00:25:47] person understands what, what I'm trying to say, and then you need to

[00:25:50] come to terms around what do, what did we agree?

[00:25:53] So we agreed something is going to happen.

[00:25:55] Then make sure you've documented it that way so that when you come back

[00:25:59] to it and it didn't happen or it did happen where you need to take the

[00:26:01] next level, you can at least refer to it and say, Hey guys, we've

[00:26:04] agreed something and now it didn't happen.

[00:26:07] Why didn't it happen?

[00:26:08] And what can we do next?

[00:26:09] So if you bring that a couple of levels up, think about project management.

[00:26:13] Why do so many payroll implementations or HR payroll projects fail?

[00:26:19] It's because the organization, the project management team is not

[00:26:24] necessarily keeping schools and keeping score of everything that's

[00:26:27] going on in the way that I believe you should.

[00:26:30] So it's even if we would be working together on a project guys

[00:26:33] and we know each other, we like each other maybe every once in a while

[00:26:37] on the weekend, we grab a beer or whatever.

[00:26:40] So we're friendly with each other.

[00:26:41] We also relate to each other's jobs.

[00:26:43] We understand what's going on.

[00:26:44] We understand that it is, it's hard work already put in a lot of hours.

[00:26:48] So the tendency for people to relate and therefore to accept and

[00:26:52] therefore not to, not to really call out what's really going on makes things worse.

[00:26:59] And so it is important that when you are in payroll and specifically

[00:27:03] when you run a project in payroll that you're really eyeballing the real issues.

[00:27:07] And you're talking about the real issue so that whenever it escalates or

[00:27:11] whenever it gets to a point where it needs the leadership, that there's no

[00:27:15] surprises and people may still disagree.

[00:27:17] People, it's okay to disagree.

[00:27:19] It's okay to agree to disagree, but at least it needs to be clear

[00:27:23] about what the disagreement is about.

[00:27:24] And obviously during, at my company at payroll minds where we deal with

[00:27:29] with quite a unique set of clients with all kinds of sets of issues.

[00:27:33] The common denominator typically is the non-communication between the

[00:27:38] various organizations such as HR and finance and payroll between the

[00:27:43] various departments, whereas I'm like guys, eventually we all have the same goal.

[00:27:47] We all want the same thing.

[00:27:49] Starts with communication and because of it, it starts also with having

[00:27:52] courage and having the ability to speak for yourself, but also to be responsible

[00:27:59] for whatever you're saying is really the case or at least you believe it to be true.

[00:28:04] So it's summarized a little bit my personality in conjunction with how I

[00:28:09] see payroll in conjunction, how I believe payroll should be acting.

[00:28:13] And therefore you can avoid the scenarios in where people may think,

[00:28:17] well, the payroll folks are underrated, underappreciated, et cetera.

[00:28:21] Cause I don't believe that.

[00:28:22] I really, I genuinely don't believe that doesn't mean I don't believe people deserve

[00:28:26] more and I didn't, doesn't mean I don't.

[00:28:28] I know that the payroll folks, if the companies they work for really

[00:28:32] understood what was going on, they probably would take more care of them.

[00:28:36] But Hey, if you're not being heard and make sure you're being heard.

[00:28:39] There we go.

[00:28:40] Yep.

[00:28:40] That's right.

[00:28:40] I love that.

[00:28:41] Yes.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:43] Hard.

[00:28:44] You've learned that.

[00:28:44] So motivational man.

[00:28:45] That's so powerful what you said.

[00:28:49] Motivational, like just don't sit and complain.

[00:28:52] Be the change basically.

[00:28:53] And I love that.

[00:28:55] I love that.

[00:28:55] I love that.

[00:28:56] Be the squeaky wheel.

[00:28:57] Right?

[00:28:57] You have, even if I tell my team, I tell whoever, listen, really,

[00:29:01] if you're not putting yourself on record, if you're not being that

[00:29:03] squeaky wheel, then you can't complain later that, Oh, well,

[00:29:07] oh, look at this and that.

[00:29:08] You have to speak up.

[00:29:09] You have to get it documented.

[00:29:11] You have, you, like you said, you have to agree to disagree,

[00:29:14] even if it doesn't get done.

[00:29:16] Right.

[00:29:16] Don't take it personal.

[00:29:17] It, Oh, I think we should do this and they don't do it.

[00:29:20] It's okay.

[00:29:20] You've raised your hand, you put it on record and when the aha moment

[00:29:25] comes from leadership, they're going to be like, Oh man, Bart said this

[00:29:28] already crap.

[00:29:29] He was right.

[00:29:30] And that's the moments that you want to have.

[00:29:32] Right.

[00:29:32] And I want to, I wanted to share one.

[00:29:34] I love the fact that Max did your preface.

[00:29:37] I love Max from Paysar.

[00:29:39] Another Dutch guy.

[00:29:39] Yeah.

[00:29:42] Yeah.

[00:29:42] Look, I'm going to have to go train it over with you guys.

[00:29:45] So, but any who he really, what an amazing personality he has.

[00:29:50] He's, he was on the show with us and just great.

[00:29:52] Oh my God.

[00:29:53] But not only that in the beginning, and I just wanted to give folks a little

[00:29:57] teaser because I didn't know what to expect from the book either.

[00:30:00] This could have been one big advertisement, which is not folks.

[00:30:04] It is not.

[00:30:05] I'm walking my dog, reading the book now.

[00:30:07] I'm like, Oh my God, this is great.

[00:30:09] Um, and one of the things that, you know, later and deep in the book,

[00:30:14] you made me challenge something that I say a lot on the show.

[00:30:18] I say the Holy Trinity of payroll.

[00:30:20] And I say it's finance, HR and payroll.

[00:30:23] Right.

[00:30:24] But you have a little different concept here where it's three overlapping

[00:30:28] departments, human resources, finance and operations.

[00:30:31] And in the middle of all that intersection is payroll.

[00:30:34] And I really love that articulation.

[00:30:38] I love the visual of that.

[00:30:39] I think people will learn from that there.

[00:30:42] And again, Bart does a great job of not making this an

[00:30:47] advertisement for his company.

[00:30:49] But he does say in the book.

[00:30:51] If you want help, if you want to go deeper, call them and

[00:30:54] reach out to payroll minds.

[00:30:56] Right.

[00:30:56] And you have an opportunity to consult folks and help them because

[00:31:00] that's not what this book is about.

[00:31:02] Right.

[00:31:03] But if you need help, reach out.

[00:31:05] I love that concept.

[00:31:06] I think that's, that's in line with me and Wal and what we

[00:31:10] want to do with this show.

[00:31:11] This is not about what we're trying to sell or anything like that.

[00:31:15] We're trying to help folks, right?

[00:31:16] If you need help, reach out because the payroll world is out there

[00:31:19] and folks like Bart and Max and me and Walt, we're willing to help.

[00:31:24] Right.

[00:31:24] Cause I think it was Max that said knowledge if not shared, right.

[00:31:28] If it's nothing, it means nothing if you can't share it.

[00:31:31] So this is a time where we're seeing a time in history where these great

[00:31:38] payroll minds are really flourishing and getting their stage.

[00:31:44] And we're out there with speak, we're helping folks and the recurring

[00:31:49] theme that I keep hearing, and there's such an opportunity for us to

[00:31:52] consolidate this all, and I want to be a part of that is that there

[00:31:56] is no playbook, there is no one right way.

[00:31:59] And I think you even say it in here or Max said it, there's no one

[00:32:03] road to learning everything.

[00:32:06] And I think that's where I come in.

[00:32:07] I have a passion for learning and teaching.

[00:32:10] And I really, we have to fit, we have to fix that as a payroll group,

[00:32:15] as leaders, we have to fix it has to be the roads have to be defined.

[00:32:21] Hey, this you can learn if you take this learning path, you'll get here.

[00:32:26] Right now it's so dysfunctional.

[00:32:28] It's just so disparaging.

[00:32:30] Everything is all over the, it's learning is a puzzle of pieces.

[00:32:33] payroll is already complicated enough.

[00:32:36] And then trying to get my learning path is complicated as well.

[00:32:39] So that's a frustrating part for me.

[00:32:40] And I want us, I challenge us as leaders in this to fix that.

[00:32:45] Before we sign off here are a couple of quick things.

[00:32:48] Don't forget to follow it's about payroll on LinkedIn and it's

[00:32:51] about your paycheck on Facebook and tick tock.

[00:32:55] Thank you for being part of our payroll community.

[00:32:57] And thank you for being a part of this journey with us until the next time.

[00:33:02] Keep learning, keep growing and most importantly, keep going.